Author Topic: Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select  (Read 1350 times)

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Offline bnaboatbuilder

  • Posts: 130
Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select
« on: January 17, 2018, 06:21 PM »
I've read your ordeal over the past months. I can't help specific to spraying Benjamin Moore.

I have had complete success spraying Sherwin Williams and Behr paints. So I stick with them.

Just find another paint, another brand. Colors can be matched across brands. I just would never go to this extent. Scrap BM at this stage in the game. Start fresh with something else.
- John

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Offline bnaboatbuilder

  • Posts: 130
Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 07:01 PM »
ProClassic Waterborne Interior Acrylic Enamel

I've been very pleased with it since I have been able to spray, roll and brush for projects with consistent quality. Only ever used white with ProClassic.

I have a Fuji Q4, 2 G-series guns gravity and siphon and T75 gun. PPS cups on any of them.

2 oz of distilled water (I keep a gallon in the shop, goes a long way), 2 oz of Floetrol, mix in paint to a total of a quart.
- John

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2018, 02:32 PM »
You don’t want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.   So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.   I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.   Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.


I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday



« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 02:40 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2018, 03:05 PM »
Maybe the word thick isn’t right I mean enough paint for it to flatten.


In his question is asked doing multiple passes. 

I found if your not getting good atomisation and do light multiple passes to build up the paint you just end up with same poor finish.   If you get enough paint on it should flatten.

You can spray vertical but it’s harder and higher chance of sagging or runs if you lay to much on.


The pictures above I posted was one just 10 seconds after I sprayed the panel vertical and then second picture when it’s dry.   The panel was kept vertical. 

Thing is I used a 10/20 tip at 140 bar pressure with 5bar air pressure.    With that I get ultra fine mist spray and it took no more than 3seconds to spray that panel maybe 4seconds.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2018, 03:29 PM »
Maybe the word thick isn’t right I mean enough paint for it to flatten.


In his question is asked doing multiple passes. 

I found if your not getting good atomisation and do light multiple passes to build up the paint you just end up with same poor finish.   If you get enough paint on it should flatten.

You can spray vertical but it’s harder and higher chance of sagging or runs if you lay to much on.


The pictures above I posted was one just 10 seconds after I sprayed the panel vertical and then second picture when it’s dry.   The panel was kept vertical. 

Thing is I used a 10/20 tip at 140 bar pressure with 5bar air pressure.    With that I get ultra fine mist spray and it took no more than 3seconds to spray that panel maybe 4seconds.

Agreed, a single pass at the proper mil thickness is best.

The cabinet in my picture is probably 24 hours dry. The doors on the bench may be fresh.

Spraying with pieces in the vertical is a learned skill. It can go really well or bite you in the ***. It is something everyone should learn, they're are times you just can't lay a piece down.

I still contend finishing is one of the hardest parts of woodworking.

Tom

I totally agree!

I’ve spent many hours sorry days no weeks 😂 learning.

Also spent many hours researching and researching.

I recon I’ve spent £600 on wasted paint making errors and testing.

Learning your self is really a high risk.   Ideally need some one who knows their stuff and show you all the pit falls of painting.

Hate when something doesn’t go right and you can’t understand why so you end up internet searching 😂.

I’m extremely new to this spraying.

Internal paints, external paints, lacquers etc   What to use!! Drives you mad!

  Paint cost from £8 a litre to £20+ a litre. 🤣

I like lacquers and tinted lacquers to any colour. 

It’s thin so sprays really fine even with HVLP.

It’s good for build up to sand back down to get a smooth finish because it sands to dust easily no clogging.   

Nice to use on Birchplywood to get a smooth finish get rid of the grain.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2018, 04:00 PM »
@jmbfestool - can you provide the details on your latest sprayer.  Something less stressful would be great!  Thanks!


Yes no problem.


I went from HVLP to airless because I thought if I’m spending the money I want something versatile. 

However!

I was able to get a good finish with airless but like HVLP it was stressful for different reasons.

So being rather deflated I started looking into this AAA and if I could convert my airless.

I ended up buying a spray Gun and I’ve got a compressor but I’ve orderd another one for portability which should be coming next week had to have it imported.


So I have the Wagner gun 4700 Aircoat with twin hose using airless I already had which is a graco 490 piston pump.

With a compressor capable of 10CFM at 5 bar.  Even though you only need 6-7cfm at 5bar minimum.

I upgraded graco 490 with a hopper and twin hose I got was only 7.5meters and smaller diameter to reduce the amount of paint used to prime the machine and cleaning.

Even though Graco 490 seems to be working fine for me. It’s a piston pump and does fluctuate but because it’s a decent size pump it keeps this down to a minimum I wouldn’t go for a smaller pump.
Ideally you want a double diaphram pump which has very small pulsations reducing fluctuations


[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 04:20 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline bnaboatbuilder

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Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2018, 04:49 PM »
I would change to another paint with the systems you have now than spend $6K on something new. Rabbit hole of money is all I picture. BM Advance isn't that important to go through all this headache. At the point of spending that much money, just farm out the spraying to someone who can do it in their sleep. Being a jack of all trades isn't an ideal scenario.

...
As I am not doing much spraying/testing these days, due to health reasons, I have been looking at changing spray technologies. I have been in contact with Kremlin and they recommend, but there not 100% sure, the 15C25 pump. As it is an investment of approx. $6000.00 CAD, I have asked for a demo on spraying BM Advance and SW Pro Classic. I know it can spray Kem Aqua and other like products, but I want to see these 2 paints sprayed before I hand over my credit card.

Now, I have learned that Advance does not like air and spraying it with HVLP turbine can prove challenging. As per a BM tech, they recommend not thinning more then 10% as sagging could occur on sharp edges of doors or panels. Thus I've been thinning 9% in my test with water only.

I have also reduced the amount of air movement in my spray booth and moved the turntable farther away from the fans. Sprayed a couple of pieces this morning and we'll see what we getting tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
JC
- John

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6620
Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 05:31 PM »
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) You don’t want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.   So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.   I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.   Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.


I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday

Very nice finish.
As I am not doing much spraying/testing these days, due to health reasons, I have been looking at changing spray technologies. I have been in contact with Kremlin and they recommend, but there not 100% sure, the 15C25 pump. As it is an investment of approx. $6000.00 CAD, I have asked for a demo on spraying BM Advance and SW Pro Classic. I know it can spray Kem Aqua and other like products, but I want to see these 2 paints sprayed before I hand over my credit card.

Now, I have learned that Advance does not like air and spraying it with HVLP turbine can prove challenging. As per a BM tech, they recommend not thinning more then 10% as sagging could occur on sharp edges of doors or panels. Thus I've been thinning 9% in my test with water only.

I have also reduced the amount of air movement in my spray booth and moved the turntable farther away from the fans. Sprayed a couple of pieces this morning and we'll see what we getting tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
JC

You seem very hooked on this particular paint why is that?

You should try test samples of other paints or work with a rep.

I had morelles come out and talk to me and took some timber samples and MDF and birch ply and they sprayed it with their product and he came back and showed me the results and I was happy so bought the paint.

$6000 seems high price.

You can spend a lot less and get a good system

My setup cost
£1200 pump
£1000 Gun/hose/tips/filters
£600 to 800 compatibile compressor.

£2800

With that system you have a two in one.
Portable Airless  and depending on compressor a portable airless air assisted.

So you can be in workshop spraying and then go onto site for touch ups or full spray.

Airless air assisted is like HVLP and airless combined.

Using a airless pump you have the high pressure for the thick paints.



Only downside really is paint paint to prime machine.  Takes a little but using a hopper and shorter hose it’s very small.  I can spray with as little as 250mm prime

 
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Offline bnaboatbuilder

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Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2018, 06:53 PM »
I'm just saying this tongue in cheek, but for that $6K, I'd just repaint everything the client already has in a new paint to match the new cabinets.
- John

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6620
Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2018, 02:23 AM »
JC,

The Kremlin 15/25 is nice machine  but it’s max fluid pressure is 90bar.  It’s not designed for portablitly either.

The reason I went with my setup

70% time used in worshop but I can also easily take it onto site work.
It’s fluid pressure is 220bar so a lot more powerful then the Kremlin fluid pressures 90bar.   

This makes it a two in one machine I can use it as airless or air asssited why not 🤣  I can spray walls and ceilings if I wanted to with airless.

The Kremlin is air asssited only 90 bar is fine and most time when I’m using air asssited I’ll be set at 70-90 bar fluid pressure but with thicker paints I’ve gone way above that pressure.
So I’m not limited to the max 90bar pressure Kremlin offers.

I’m sure Kremlin will be a more refined machine and maybe something I’ve missed but when looking at specs fluid flow is same between my setup and Kremlin but mine has more pressure.    Which really is all you need from a fluid pump no?

Regarding the gun which comes with the Kremlin I don’t know much about it but I know the Wagner fine tips AA guns are top notch!   The tips are used in manufacture spraying. 
£100 a tip does suck though if your spraying different materials you would need 2 or 3 different tips at least.


I’ll post a video I did good few weeks ago when I first got my Wagner gun spraying thick paint no thinning.



This was the one I was looking at one point.  It’s a Kremlin just rebranded by Morrels.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 02:29 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2018, 04:07 AM »
Not very good video but you can see how easily it sprayed a thicker paint.

That went lovely and flat after a few minutes.

 
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2018, 11:33 AM »
@JCLP


Here is just a demo of the spraying in use.

Just a sample door I’m spraying

Sorry poor video quality YouTube wouldn’t let me upload it was doing my head in so reduced quality and it loaded up.

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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2018, 11:37 AM »
Here picture of the door 1 hour later

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Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 65
Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2018, 07:04 PM »
Not sure I read it that way lol
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 07:11 PM by brewster201 »
Hand Woodworking

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2018, 01:14 AM »
@brewster201  like @tjbnwi said I mentioned that in my comment

If you zoom in you can see it even says on the sprayer it’s by Kremlin

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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2018, 01:39 AM »



I also looked into the Xcite gun which comes with Kremlin....






Looks a nice gun but my first thought was what are the tips like....


« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 04:30 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2018, 01:45 AM »
Here is a picture of Kremlin Xcite gun flat tip. 





I’m not impressed to be honest. Looking at the tip it does not look reversible so if you block the tip which is highly likely at some point.
You will spending some time cleaning the tip or throw it.  £100+ a tip you won’t throw it 😂





The Wagner gun flat tips are reversible you remove the air cap you pop the tip out which is simetrical in shape stick it back into the gun attach air cap two quick sprays and tip is unblocked again then put the tip back in the correct way again and off you go spraying.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2018, 01:58 AM »
You would need to buy some of these with the Kremlin Xcite gun tips so you can pick the paint blockage out of the tips.



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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2018, 02:02 AM »
Here is a picture of the Wagner tip

As you can see it’s reversible in shape so you can spin it out and blast 100 bar to blow the blockage out.  No messing with little needles to clean the blockage risk damaging the tip.


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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2018, 02:21 AM »
I go on.

The Kremlin Xcite has no inline filter so I believe you have a higher chance of tip blockage.



I’ve attached my gun and Xcite which has no filter

The black section of my gun houses a large filter largest filter in the air asssited market.



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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2018, 03:27 AM »
Maybe look at the Wagner compact same as the Kremlin.


They both do two types a suction tube or a hopper.

Or

Wagner have the pump upside down and have a hopper best I’ve seen least paint wastage.

Kremlin is just a hopper attachment so you still have a metal tube wasting paint.

I’ll attach pictures so you can see what I mean.


I don’t know how much spraying you will be doing but seen as you talk about HVLP
I assume not a lot so I would advice a hopper system.

You use a lot less paint with a hopper fed system less paint to prime and less paint for cleaning.

Down side to hopper is if your spraying a lot of paint constantly filling up hopper but most hoppers take 5 litres so I’m sure that’s enough for what your doing.



As you can see metal tube will sit paint which is paint you waste just to prime machine. It’s a lot if you only have a 5 litre tin to spray.





Wagner is the same







Then Wagner do a compact one with hopper it’s upside down so no tube to waste paint.





Oh forgot to mention the Wagner work at much higher pressures  the compact one goes up to 320bar compared to Kremlin 90bar.





« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:32 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2018, 04:53 AM »
Edited above miss read what you said before
Sorry.

Also forgot about your experiment.

Just on your HVLP I’m curious what’s your experiment is.

HVLP turbine has its place but pressure with them is less than 1Bar normally about 0.7 bar

They can’t be more than 1Bar for regulation reasons.

Having such low pressure they are very much using the air from the air cap to break up the paint.

Hence why the paint needs to be very thin to Atomize.

I also found HVLP turbine is difficult to get paint into grooves and small mould details. 
You would have to really aim and target these grooves to get the paint in.

I learned that the reason for this is because the velocity of the paint is very low compared to the air velocity.   

So the paint is fighting the air to get to the surface.  The air is bouncing back out of the groove stoping the paint entering the groove.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 05:06 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2018, 09:31 AM »
Thanks for all the good info and photos. I really like the Xcite gun and not too many issues with tip plugging. The 15C25 comes with a pump discharge filter and the gun has built in strainer above the swivel. This my setup with a Kremlin one pass heater

Oh sorry I looked at the gun and typed in filters and nothing popped up normally websites which sell the gun have tips and filters in accessories and that particular gun didn’t so asssumed it was just a swivel connection only.

Saying that the filter can’t be very big at all to fit inside there and it looks like it requires tools to remove and clean filter is that correct?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 09:40 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 09:43 AM »
I go on.

The Kremlin Xcite has no inline filter so I believe you have a higher chance of tip blockage.



I’ve attached my gun and Xcite which has no filter

The black section of my gun houses a large filter largest filter in the air asssited market.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

The Kremlin gun does have a filter, it is in the fitting that the fluid hose connects to.

I have a Graco and C.A.T. AAA guns.The y also have filters at the gun hose connection. I have a second filter housing mounted on all my pumps.

I have had a few plugs, I do strain the product and keep the equipment clean. I make sure I flush the hoses well after use.

Tom

Yeah sorry the swivel connection gave me doubt due to its size and it not popping up with a quick search I made a quick assumption it didn’t have a filter.

Always expect two filters one at pump and one just before gun. 

Block tips are very annoying.

Especially mid spraying a large panel 😭😭😭
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 10:14 AM »
@tjbnwi

Got the little strainer in bottom of hopper then I use 100mesh in pump and  100 to 200 mesh in the gun. 

Wagner have a chart and 8 thou to 10 require 200mesh

I don’t always flush mine out to be honest.  If I’m using same product over a few days or week I leave it primed.   Only till I know I’m finished or change product do I give it a proper clean flush through.



Just had another quick search Xcite doesn’t really come up with much really.
Found a non UK site selling filters I think are for the gun?

274239-0

Still can’t tell if it’s tooles filter change.




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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 10:22 AM »
Found on Kijiji a Kremlin 15C25 ( 15:1) pump with Xcite gun, couple of extra tips, pump fluid and some filters. The seller says it is 5 years old and has only sprayed water based clears through it. Looks fairly clean in the photos. What type of questions should I ask them and what test can I do if I were to move forwrd on this. His asking price is $2400.00 CAD and paid $5100 CAD 5 years ago.

Cheers,
JC

Replying to your previous comment sorry you can’t get Wagner stuff! Shame!


Regarding this comment

I have no knowledge on the Kremlin pump but going off a graco piston pump.

Wear on the piston is a big cost to replace. 

It’s not bad replacing the packers but if they have been worn and left it could then have caused damage to piston

Maybe the Kremlin is the same?

Graco has a counter so tells you how many litres it has sprayed in its life time so you know how much life it has left in the piston pump before replacing.

Does the Kremlin have that?


Best thing is call Kremlin and ask them what parts wear out and how much do them parts cost if they need replacing.

Then you know if something does go you you haven’t lost out.



I did that with graco I gave them a call when I was looking.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2018, 10:43 AM »
@tjbnwi

I see didn’t know that. So they are a extra filter you can have in addition to your inline filter

So you can be super filtered  😂.


So you choose filters based on product.



I choose tips based on product and then select correct filter for the tip which is stated by manufacture that’s how I thought you had to do it.

Finer tip = finer filter




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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2018, 11:23 AM »
Found on Kijiji a Kremlin 15C25 ( 15:1) pump with Xcite gun, couple of extra tips, pump fluid and some filters. The seller says it is 5 years old and has only sprayed water based clears through it. Looks fairly clean in the photos. What type of questions should I ask them and what test can I do if I were to move forwrd on this. His asking price is $2400.00 CAD and paid $5100 CAD 5 years ago.

Cheers,
JC

@JCLP

Such a shame you can’t get Wagner.

Look at finish with the pump and gun

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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2018, 03:22 PM »
@tjbnwi

Yes I did say look at the gun and pump.



The pump still has a lot to do with finish.   Yes I agree the gun is the biggest factor,  the gun he’s using is the Wagner aircoat 4600 model bellow mine which is 4700.


A pump needs to be able to deliver fluid smoothly and at a good rate.

Like a double diaphragm pump should give smoother flow compared to a piston pump.

Also a pump which can deliver fluid at low to high pressure controllably and consistently.

Having a pump which can offer high pressure 250-320 bar is high and offers you flexibility to go airless or assisted but also pretty much spray any paint thickness with absolutely no Thinnin.





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Offline JCLP

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Re: Help on Spraying BM Advance
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2018, 05:56 PM »
I like it when I solve a problem. Was able to spray that extremely thick BM Regal Select with great success over the last 2 days. Those ugly photos that I posted are gone for ever. I'm back to business.
Now going to  try BM Advance again and another paint, the new SW Emerald urethane based paint. Both of these paints have been extremely difficult and have caused me many issues over the last year or so. BUt now I think I know why. Can't wait till the morning to get cracking. I would do it now, but already finished a bottle of wine and thinking of cracking a second. It will have to wait till morning.

So what did I do/find. Sorry, but as much as I would like to share what I discovered with everyone right now, I can't. I have been asked to keep it under wraps by one of my suppliers. Believe me when I say that I will share with you my findings in the next few days. Stay tuned.

Cheers,
JC