Author Topic: Target Coatings USL  (Read 8741 times)

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Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Target Coatings USL
« on: October 19, 2007, 07:41 PM »
Calling all finishers!

I have a project that is white lacquer, I have purchased Oxford, Ultima Spray Lacquer and Titanium white pigment, I plan to mix no more than 10 ounces per gallon to pigment the lacquer solid white. My customer has a sample from Benjamin Moore that she would like replicated on her millwork, it is an "off white" and she was very specific about it being a perfect match.
My question is:
if I add the pigment to a gallon of lacquer and walk into Benjamin Moore, is it possible for them to mix this color with the Titanium white pigment, or should I let them add a neutral white pigment, followed by the color.
I will of course do this to one gallon at a time and spray samples until the desired color is achieved. This will be my first time spraying a water based white laquer,
My usual supplier of oil based lacquer does not have the experience with WB paints nor Target Coatings brand finishes for me to warrant using them to mix this for me.
I would like some opinions here first, before I walk into Ben Moore, besides I would much prefer to be telling them what to do, then getting the run around by some kid at the counter, who thinks he knows everything, yet has never heard of WB lacquer :)

Mirko

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Offline wooden

  • Posts: 319
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2007, 01:14 AM »
If you bring a color sample in, they will be able to tint the gallon of USL for you.  Be sure they understand it is a clear, waterborne product so that they use the appropriate tints.

Perhaps you know....I generally spray the first coat of USL as untinted gloss for better adhesion - especially with solid color tints.  Do you spray the final coat as a clear to get the sheen you want?

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2007, 02:18 AM »
Tim,
I was told the sealer coat can be sprayed with pigmented USL. In the past I have used white primer, but what I have found is, its very easy to sand but you can easily damaged it due to its chalky texture. I thought, if I seal with the USL it would have more durability for sanding. The cabinets are face frame with beads, it is quite easy to scratch and over shoot the bead, leaving cross hatched sanding damage on the face frame.

Can you explain what the benefits are, by sealing with the clear gloss first? (I did not order any) I figured If the first two coats are a solid color, I can follow with heavy block sanding to achieve the flatness I'm after, then add two more coats of pigmented USL.

This time I'm not using a final coat of clear by reason, the last time I tried that, impurities that made there way onto the wet surface would stick out like a sore thumb over the white background.I could not buff them out because they were imbedded in the clear. Have you encountered this problem? I filter all my paints but I'm finishing without a booth, so there are all kinds of things flying around. :-[

I'm using a "satin" USL but the pigment should not effect the sheen right?

thanks for the help

Mirko

Offline Overtime

  • Posts: 265
  • Eastern Iowa USA
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 03:59 AM »
 My Benjamin Moore would not sell me pigment nor tint my Target. He wanted to sell me some of their product. 
I got some Golden Brand Titanium White from Dick Blick art supply. Worked out better since I now have the power and control.

http://www.dickblick.com/zz006/38a/

  Any way I tinted some Emtech 8800 sealer with the max %age.  Tinted some Super Clear Gloss also to the max % age

  I sprayed a project of MDF and It required a total combination of about 10 coats to achieve a good opaque finish. I tended to lay it on thicker than I wanted to. Very nice but not as flat as I wanted. The MDF just drank up both the sealer and the Super Clear. Even with the 8800 it just soaked it up.

 Then a Baltic Birch project with same results it took many coats to become opaque, but sooner then the MDF. Very good results. On both projects the top coat was tinted. My first reaction after the two projects was - is to use a white primer paint like zinzzer next time.  :D  And now I want to try the Super Clear Satin as the base on next tinting project.

 I had no problems measuring and mixing the pigment. If they can't do it you could do this if you had the time.
Patrick

Offline wooden

  • Posts: 319
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2007, 11:08 AM »
I spray the first coat as a clear because it will adsorb/adhere to the wood the best.  It may be overkill but even tinted primers generally have less tint/gallon compared to final layer paints so that the primer will adhere better.

My results are a bit different than the previous post.  I haven't needed 10 coats but we also don't have any idea on how thick a layer we are spraying etc. etc.

The final coat having bits of gunk in it could be from a variety of causes:

1.  Air line having debris in it.  Put a filter in line.  Let plenty of air pass through before attaching the spray gun to remove any debris that has settled in the hose/tank.  Water in the air can cause problems with solvent finishes.  I haven't found that water in the lines is a problem with waterborne finishes since I don't have a water filter on my set up.

2.  Debris in the gun.  Clean the fluid path of the gun after use.  Clean by running clean compatible solvent several times (change the solvent to fresh, clean solvent several times) after each use followed by a couple runs with alcohol or lacquer thinner to dry the gun out and then regularly disassemble the gun and clean with lacquer thinner soak and brushing.  I suggest wearing an organic solvent respirator during this...

3.  Debris in the finish.  Strain/filter the finish before it goes in the cup or pot.  Some finishes (especially 2-part or precatalyzed) can get clumps in them if they sit in a cup or pot for extended periods of time.  Be sure your strainer/filter is clean.  I use reusable strainers and clean then thoroughly and then store them in plastic bags to prevent any dust from getting on them.

4.  Flying debris from the air.  I avoid this by running an air filter arranged so that the filtered air gently passes over the newly sprayed work.  Start the air filter well ahead of spraying time.  Also helps to clear the air of what little overspray doesn't immediately fall to the floor.  USL dries to the touch in about 5-10 minutes which is very fast but debris can fall and stick in that time....I know from personal experience  :-[.

I agree with you about sanding any finished profiled surface.....much too easy to cut through or leave obvious scratch patterns.  I apply a clear top coat within an hour or few of the final tinted coat.  Are you certain the debris or uneven surface texture is from the final coat?  IME with USL and other waterbornes, I MUST sand (this is really fine sanding - 320 or 400 grit, preferally worn rather than fresh) after 2-3 coats to get a smooth finish, even if I do a grain raising before applying any finish.  The bead isn't a problem at this stage since you'll have a few or many more coats to go.  Those rubber sanding profiles are great.

I just read Overtime's synopsis on spraying USL and I follow a very similar schedule, although I either spray heavier coats or don't build as much of a film.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:15 AM by Tim Sproul »

Offline Jerry Work

  • Posts: 307
    • The Dovetail Joint
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2007, 12:01 PM »
Hi Mirko,

I would suggest calling Jeff Weiss, owner of Target, and pose those questions to him.  He is a paint chemist and is the designer of all their coatings so would know what will and won't play well.  I don't often do pigmented finishes, but when I do I do the seal coats clear, sand flat and then start the pigmented coats.  I  thin the final pigment coat so it will flow out really flat and smooth.  Then I like a top coat of clear to add a bit of protection from abrasion and some depth to the finish.  Slow, but works well.

Jerry

Calling all finishers!

I have a project that is white lacquer, I have purchased Oxford, Ultima Spray Lacquer and Titanium white pigment, I plan to mix no more than 10 ounces per gallon to pigment the lacquer solid white. My customer has a sample from Benjamin Moore that she would like replicated on her millwork, it is an "off white" and she was very specific about it being a perfect match.
My question is:
if I add the pigment to a gallon of lacquer and walk into Benjamin Moore, is it possible for them to mix this color with the Titanium white pigment, or should I let them add a neutral white pigment, followed by the color.
I will of course do this to one gallon at a time and spray samples until the desired color is achieved. This will be my first time spraying a water based white laquer,
My usual supplier of oil based lacquer does not have the experience with WB paints nor Target Coatings brand finishes for me to warrant using them to mix this for me.
I would like some opinions here first, before I walk into Ben Moore, besides I would much prefer to be telling them what to do, then getting the run around by some kid at the counter, who thinks he knows everything, yet has never heard of WB lacquer :)

Mirko
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted by Jerry Work
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR. 
26 mi SW of Grants Pass on US 199, The Redwood Highway
Visitors always welcome!
http://jerrywork.com
glwork@mac.com

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2007, 05:13 PM »
Tim,
I have a Lemmer HVLP turbine with the bleeder gun, I will check with them for a inline air filter.

Jerry,
Thanks, I will be in contact with Jeff @ Target. BTW you where my inspiration for switching to 100% water born, it has been tough, to near impossible finding People with your experience with WB finishes in my area. Nice work.

Overtime,
Is Titanium white, a white base (neutral) or should I get Zinc white? I want to pigment the clear myself then have someone color it.

Mirko
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 05:17 PM by Mirko »

Offline Overtime

  • Posts: 265
  • Eastern Iowa USA
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2007, 03:12 AM »
 Mirko

 I remember reading something specific on the base color options for white - titanium and zinc,  but can't recall the source.  Thought it might have been on the Target finish forum but could not find it.
   Titanium white is the more opaque of the two and can be used as a base but that's about all I know.

  I have titanium white and a couple of 4oz Golden Fluid colors that I plan on adding to the base to experiment with. But have not done it yet.  My plan was - is to add a few drops of blue into the SuperClear 9000 with the titanium white to get a tone of light blue to spray the base and cap-crown trim on a linen cabinet.

 The pros will get it right for ya.   
Patrick

Offline Jerry Work

  • Posts: 307
    • The Dovetail Joint
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2007, 11:59 AM »
Glad to be of help.

jerry

Tim,
I have a Lemmer HVLP turbine with the bleeder gun, I will check with them for a inline air filter.

Jerry,
Thanks, I will be in contact with Jeff @ Target. BTW you where my inspiration for switching to 100% water born, it has been tough, to near impossible finding People with your experience with WB finishes in my area. Nice work.

Overtime,
Is Titanium white, a white base (neutral) or should I get Zinc white? I want to pigment the clear myself then have someone color it.

Mirko
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted by Jerry Work
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR. 
26 mi SW of Grants Pass on US 199, The Redwood Highway
Visitors always welcome!
http://jerrywork.com
glwork@mac.com

Offline Jerry Work

  • Posts: 307
    • The Dovetail Joint
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2007, 03:16 PM »
This is from Jeff Weiss, President of Target Coatings in response to the thread link I sent to him this morning:

"Some Ben Moore dealers will gladly tint an outside source product if they have a standing relationship with the customer, other dealers will want to sell their own products for obvious reasons.  With this in mind, the new zero VOC pigment system for the Ben Moore "Aura" paint line will work in our USL (and any other Target finish).  Depending on the depth of tint base he is looking for, Mirko can create the white base with his own source of titanium oxide (Ti02) or he can use the MIXOL pigments sold through our FInishingZone e-commerce site:

http://www.targetcoatings.com/shop/catalog/Mixol_Pigments-26-1.html

Once the base is blended he can then take the white base to Ben Moore to be color tinted to make the off-white match for the customer.  There are hundreds of shades of white, and a good color scanner should make matching the shade easy.  This is where the success of Benjamin Moore comes in- they know their business and make some of the best house paints in the industry."

Jerry
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted by Jerry Work
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR. 
26 mi SW of Grants Pass on US 199, The Redwood Highway
Visitors always welcome!
http://jerrywork.com
glwork@mac.com

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: Target Coatings USL
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2007, 08:34 PM »
Jerry,
Thank you, so much, for taking the time to help me out!
I will be in touch, and post my results.

Take care.

Mirko