Author Topic: The way to remove orange peels  (Read 7899 times)

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Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
The way to remove orange peels
« on: January 21, 2017, 07:59 PM »
Hi- I am still getting orange peels although I sand my sample pretty flat. While researching online, many youtube videos used wet sanding followed by compound then polish to remove orange peels in the car painting job. I am wondering whether the same method can be applied to orange peel on cabinet. The finish is going to be satin not high gloss.

Another way I found is to spray thin layer of lacquer thinner. Would that work on KA+?

All suggestions are welcome and really appreciated!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2017, 09:48 PM »
Sand them away completely. If you see any shinny areas or dots you haven't sanded enough. If you need to use 120 grit paper. Reprime if you expose raw wood and respray the Kem Aqua.
Tim

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2017, 10:19 PM »
Hi-Tim, thank you for replying.

How to avoid this issue completely? I sanded down a sample to be flat not shining dots and resprayed but still got slightly better orange peel. The wet surface doesn't look like glass smooth but little bumps across the whole board? Because material is too thick? I opened the air valve to max as fuji suggested and turned it down a little. Sprayed on the paper and make sure it is oval shape and doesn't drip.  Any steps for me to take to fine tune the results?

Best and cheers

Offline Alejandrom

  • Posts: 35
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2017, 04:54 AM »
I only can tell you orange peel problems I have had finishing.

Material too thick - add more diluent
Very fast dry - add more diluent or use one that dries slower
Too many lacquer exit from the sprayer - reduce flow

These are typical problems

I hope this will help you.

Sorry for my English.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 04:56 AM by Alejandrom »

Offline tdwilli1

  • Posts: 28
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2017, 10:19 AM »
Hi-Tim, thank you for replying.

How to avoid this issue completely? I sanded down a sample to be flat not shining dots and resprayed but still got slightly better orange peel. The wet surface doesn't look like glass smooth but little bumps across the whole board? Because material is too thick? I opened the air valve to max as fuji suggested and turned it down a little. Sprayed on the paper and make sure it is oval shape and doesn't drip.  Any steps for me to take to fine tune the results?

Best and cheers

I battled this for almost a year before coming up with a cure for my environment. I had tried new guns, less finish more finish, high air flow low air flow, almost everything. Finally I put extender in my finishes instead of diluting with water (I use WB products) and bingo - even flow, no orange peel, no need for sanding down flat to get rid of shiny spots or pits. My garage is at a pretty low humidity (less than 40%) so it seems it was drying too fast and not leveling out properly. Just a suggestion.

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2017, 11:47 AM »
Thanks, I did add extender, maybe add more to 10%  [tongue] I will try again. My work light is pretty warm and close. Could that be a cause to dry too fast?

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2017, 12:16 PM »
How to avoid this issue completely? I sanded down a sample to be flat not shining dots and resprayed but still got slightly better orange peel.
Do this test. Stand your test panel up vertically and spray the Kem Aqua. Wait till it dries. If you got drips or runs you sprayed too much or it's too thin and you need to adjust so you get a nice coat but no drips.

The wet surface doesn't look like glass smooth but little bumps across the whole board?
Because material is too thick?

We would need a picture as this could you are spraying to little or too much.

My work light is pretty warm and close. Could that be a cause to dry too fast?

Is it a Tungsten, or incandescent vs. an LED light?  Kem Aqua flashes or dries very quickly and any excessive heat or direct sunlight will make it dry too fast so this could be a problem. I have found that distilled water up to 10% increases drying time and reduces striping in areas that are very warm.
Tim

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 01:19 PM »
Is it a Tungsten, or incandescent vs. an LED light?  Kem Aqua flashes or dries very quickly and any excessive heat or direct sunlight will make it dry too fast so this could be a problem. I have found that distilled water up to 10% increases drying time and reduces striping in areas that are very warm.
Tim
By adding 10% water you are thinning the material and that you'd think would do the opposite.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2017, 04:19 PM »
By adding 10% water you are thinning the material and that you'd think would do the opposite.

Bill:
I read yur comment numerous tines and it's probably me, but I don't undersrand what you have written...please explain.

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2017, 05:18 PM »
Bill:
I read yur comment numerous tines and it's probably me, but I don't undersrand what you have written...please explain.
How would adding 10% water slow drying time?  I did rethink this though!  I now think it would as there is more water that needs to evaporate and would take longer.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2017, 05:43 PM »
Sand them away completely. If you see any shinny areas or dots you haven't sanded enough. If you need to use 120 grit paper. Reprime if you expose raw wood and respray the Kem Aqua.
Tim

Hi, Tim,

What to do if exposed some of the raw wood. Do I have to start over with the whole thing or can just spray whole board or patch job? Which way is better? Thanks so much

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2017, 10:15 PM »
Found this link and not sure whether will work on the cabinet. Maybe will give it a try later.

http://triumphbonneville.org/diy/how-to-correct-orange-peel-in-eastwood-rat-rod-satin-black-paint/

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2017, 11:30 AM »
How would adding 10% water slow drying time?  I did rethink this though!  I now think it would as there is more water that needs to evaporate and would take longer.

Exactly! It takes a lot more energy and/or time to evaporate water than an organic solvent. 
Tim

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2017, 11:31 AM »
Hi, Tim,

What to do if exposed some of the raw wood. Do I have to start over with the whole thing or can just spray whole board or patch job? Which way is better? Thanks so much

Re prime the whole board and respray.
You get better [wink] after you have done this a couple hundred times.
Tim

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 12:47 PM »
I finally got a less orange peel board. I thin the material little bit more and put on between 2 and 3 mils. In the beginning, it still looks wavy after 1 hr or so on much better. I found that if I get slightly thicker mils,bubbles appears more. How do I balance between thickness and flow? Does KA+ need to be @ 3mils to flow and flat?So hard to twix all these variables.

Next step is sand more and respray ?Should I apply thicker layer and thin more?How to find what causes it?

Thanks for your wonderdul help.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:57 PM by usatu »

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2017, 07:24 PM »
I finally got a less orange peel board. I thin the material little bit more and put on between 2 and 3 mils.

Your first panel looks good to me. @tjbnwi what do you think?

I thin the material little bit more and put on between 2 and 3 mils.

How much did you thin?

How do I balance between thickness and flow? So hard to twix all these variables.


That is the trick of spraying water bourne paint.

Does KA+ need to be @ 3mils to flow and flat?

Do what works, don't worry so much about mils.

Next step is sand more and respray ?
Should I apply thicker layer and thin more?

I don't understand? Are you referring to a second coat? The first pic you showed looks good to me.

How to find what causes it?

You might want to rebuild your gun like @JCLP.
Tim


Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2017, 07:36 PM »
Your first panel looks good to me. @tjbnwi what do you think?


Tim
I thought so too!
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2017, 08:21 PM »
First panel does look good. I've had KA+ take a month to tighten completely. Temp and humidity play a big role in how these products cure. After awhile you know if the pieces were sprayed properly prior to it reaching full cure.

Don't feel bad about the issues you're having. I know a finisher in Denver, which is a high desert, he can't get KA+ to apply/lay down properly. I went out there and had no issues spraying it, used his equipment.

You're missing a few variables in your thickness, flow question as it applies to application. Speed and distance play a big roll. You can have the flow slightly off and make up for it with distance and speed and vise versa. Distance has a big effect on rebound and squinty on the target. You need to understand and control the interaction of all 4 variables to get a great finish.

Use this for your reducer, do not go over 10%;

https://generalfinishes.com/professional-products/additives-miscellaneous/enduro-extender#.WIaqELGZM0o

I buy it by the gallon.

Tom

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2017, 09:18 PM »
Dear experts- You are so nice and helpful! Can't thank you all enough. The first picture does look fine in computer but the problem is when I put it up under the light, I still can see orange peels. Actually 1st and 4th picture is the same board taken under different lights and directions. Drive me crazy! I will keep sanding and retry for all the up cabinet doors.

What's the right viscosity after thinning the product? Today I just guesstimate it.

When things are right, do you see the paint flows like glass top (very few waves/orange peels) in a few minutes or after a while (when it is dried)? I still don't get it.

Best and cheers
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 09:32 PM by usatu »

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2017, 09:30 PM »
I used enduro extender to thin, but it is pretty expensive. 16fl oz is $11.

Offline tdwilli1

  • Posts: 28
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2017, 10:06 AM »
I used enduro extender to thin, but it is pretty expensive. 16fl oz is $11.

I used that to get my first best results and like you thought it was pretty spendy. So I ordered some X-I-M from Amazon to give it a try. So far on my test pieces it is flowing and working great. Put a mix of 16 oz GF High Perf poly with 1-2 oz of Dye stain for tint with 10% of the XIM and after the first coat on mahogany - very little grain raising and nice flow. After the second coat with out touching the first coat it was ready for a final coat of clear finish and just a VERY light pass with a super fine sandpaper block.

I was never able to achieve this without extender and now with the XIM it seems to perform even better. So am going to start spraying some drawers to see how it goes.

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2017, 12:03 PM »
Thanks for the info. Can pls beyou share the product you used with XIM?


Offline tdwilli1

  • Posts: 28
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2017, 04:54 PM »
It was there in my post - General Finishes High Performance Poly w/ General Finishes Dye stain. I realize it's not paint but from the description of your issue it was exactly the issue I was having with my setup. So I was just tossing out the findings I had made that make it so I don't dread getting to the finishing part of a project!

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2017, 05:47 PM »
When things are right, do you see the paint flows like glass top (very few waves/orange peels) in a few minutes or after a while (when it is dried)?

I spray it on and it looks like a wet coating.
I can tell within an hour if it's good or if I will have to respray.
Keep going, it looks like you are getting there.
Tim

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2017, 06:01 PM »
After talking to JC,I still don't get the wet good coating should look like until I cleaned my board last night under a light above my head. It is a perfect reflection!Water is very thin material comparing to paint. Can you get the same reflection using paint?Mine is always wavy looking. Could that caused by the the paint bouncing  back?

Also how would be the best light setting?It's very hard to see when it is dark. I got two work lights no above light.

Thanks!

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2017, 09:09 PM »
Experts-please help me diagnose the problem of my spraying skills. The first 2 pictures are spraying a sheet of glass. You can see uneven coating on it. Why is this happening? The mill is not enough or I move too fast?

The last picture looks like a glass( although not perfect like a mirror) but does it look too thick to you? Mill is above 4.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 09:11 PM by usatu »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 08:37 PM »
A couple I shot yesterday.

Tom

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2017, 08:23 PM »
Experts-please help me diagnose the problem of my spraying skills. The first 2 pictures are spraying a sheet of glass. You can see uneven coating on it. Why is this happening? The mill is not enough or I move too fast?

The last picture looks like a glass( although not perfect like a mirror) but does it look too thick to you? Mill is above 4.

Is this with the "repaired gun"?
Can you take a picture of the nozzel again to see if it is still leaking?

Other than shouting you off by posting pictures of just sprayed finishes that are perfect, I am not sure we can help you. I suggest you find a local expert, or take some lessons/courses from someone who can show you what you are doing wrong.

Tim

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2017, 10:59 PM »
Please shout me off with close up picture with perfect shots  [tongue]

I found the weather really matter to the final result and material needs to be thin. Guess winter here is pretty dry with heater blowing all the time and that makes the finish dried very fast. The last picture dried pretty smooth.

BTW, how easy is to touch up some areas with kem aqua plus?  Will next layer of coating to dissolve into the first layer? I accidentally touched the door before it is fully cured.

Thanks all.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 11:04 PM by usatu »

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2017, 06:57 PM »
Guess winter here is pretty dry with heater blowing all the time and that makes the finish dried very fast.
Hmm, maybe turn the heater off while you are painting. Could be adding to your problems.

BTW, how easy is to touch up some areas with kem aqua plus? 

Not easy. I always see areas that I have tried to touch up. I always end up sanding and re-coating.

Will next layer of coating to dissolve into the first layer?

No, waterborne acrylic based coatings do not act like traditional nitrocellulose lacquer. The layers do bond together chemically in a waterborne acrylic but do not burn in or dissolve the previous layer and become one as happens in a solvent based lacquer.

I accidentally touched the door before it is fully cured.

Ya, try not to do that.
Tim

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2017, 09:11 PM »
Dear experts-

Thank you all for your wonderful help during my first paint experiment!I decide to stop working as I am totally sick of sanding and spraying without getting perfect results. Just let it be 😋

I Share with you my final result and thank you all again.

 I still got a few cans KA+left , can I use it on furnitures or any better use before it goes bad.



Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2017, 09:31 PM »
The project appears to  have come together very well.

Yes, you can use the KA+ on furniture.

Tom

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3459
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: The way to remove orange peels
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2017, 02:49 PM »
I Share with you my final result and thank you all again.

Looks really good from here.
Congratulations, bet you are happy that is done.
Tim