Forum Re-Design

[Brice Burrell]

Well, I can either have the fonts be a consistent size on the home page and in the posting areas, or I can have them be relatively larger in the posting area.  There is a problem with letting the fonts get too big on the home page.

Matthew

If I had to choose, I'd go with a consistent font size.  Thanks.

Darn, I'd go with larger post fonts.

[Matthew Schenker]

       On the current forum the posts are "separated" by  alternating white / pale blue. I cannot see that type of separation on my screen. Is there supposed to be a color alternation?  If not, then some more prominent form of separation would be good.  You could try a very light grey.

There was an alternating color in the original design, but it was removed in my initial testing.  I also like that alternating color scheme, so I'll add it back in momentarily!  Keep checking the test site to see the changes.

       How about using a guide rail ( FS/2 please ) for one or both of the grey bars across the top of the pages?  I don't know the tech term- the ones with  home, messages, help, etc.    It might help give the forum that unique look.

I'm not sure how such a graphic would look, but I might give it a try later on, when the other elements are in place.  It might give the forum more of a Festool-oriented theme.  Stay tuned on this.

Matthew

[Tinker]

Matt, I have not had time to wade thru all of the very interresting replies.  I have not taken the time to check the new format.  i barely have time right now to insert my own reply.  Eventually, I will address all of these issues.

I do want to make one comment, even tho it does not address the actual format. 

I have always been very impressed with the amount of effort you, personally, have put into the developement of this very wonderful and functional site.  I have been a participant of other WW forums over as many years as I have had internet capability.  Most recently, I had been involved for all of those years with a forum developed by one of the WW magazines that I had subscribed to for an even longer time.  Within the past year, they redid the forum amid many kudos from members who indicated their excited anticipation.

When the forum went into its newer metomorphosis, I suddenly discovered I could no longer communicate.  I tried everything including sending notes to the mag itself.  No replies and no positive results.  Eventually, another member who was having the same problem managed somehow to put in his own complaint to the forum.  His complaint exactly matched my own problems.  The reply was to disconnect all of the cookies, or something like that (I am not a computer expert, so that was not an option for me as i do not know how to reconnect.  I have been thru that and required help to reorganize my computer.  NOT fun AND expensive).  The guy replied with about the same observation as I have related about my own situation.  The reply from the forom troubleshooting host was to replace his Mac with a PC.  I did have E- for some of the other forum members and sent personal notes which were then relayed to forum hosts.  NEVER have I received any reply from those hosts or from the mag itself.  I can still access and I have noticed the absence of several other "previous" members. I can see they do not, in any way, care.

This rather long post is not meant to point out what I perceive as a deficiency of some other forums, but rather to point out how much I admire your own hard work, patience and, above all, your compassion to try to get this thing as near to perfect as possible for all.  An impossible task, but I. for one, am most appreciative.  I have total confidence that you will get it right.  As my old HS shop teacher used to say, "There is no s'ch thin' es gud'n'nuff, it's gotta be purfeck."  I think you will get it there, and then still keep tweaking.
Tinker

[Daviddubya]

Tinker - I am a participant in the forum you referenced.  It is a wonderful advantage here to be able to preview the new forum design and make comments that are then implemented.  Unfortunately, such a "beta" testing period was not available on the other forum, and the format, navigation and speed still leave a lot to be desired.  In their defense, they are a part of a much larger corporation that runs many forums under the same software.  Then again it would seem that a large corporation could have done a much better job of getting it right.  Oh well.  Good job here, Matthew.

ps - A comment about the banner that shows up now in Test (one with no tools).  Fade to black on a black background is not effective, IMHO.  And the sub-heading (Discussions and Multi....) is dim.  The white announcements on the right side of the banner show up well though.  I wish I had some graphics talent so I could help, but all I can do is comment.   

pps - It looks to me like there are several different fonts being used on the Test pages.  One lesson I learned from a web graphic artist was to minimize the number of different fonts on a page.  Too many fonts confuse the eyes.  Example - the font for the navigation buttons (Home, Help...) is different from the font for the thread control buttons (Mark Read, Notify...).  I would think the pages would look better if all of the button fonts were the same font.

[Tinker]

David, the big difference here is that everybody involved is not only interrested in their tools, but also the people who are visiting, whether every day, or occasionally.  It is a great feeling to become involved with such a group and to know that those with the wherewithall to keep it together are trying to satisfy all.
Tinker

[Fred West]

Matthew, that black and green is a VERY striking header and extremely easy to read as well as just sexy. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

Tinker - I am a participant in the forum you referenced.  It is a wonderful advantage here to be able to preview the new forum design and make comments that are then implemented.  Unfortunately, such a "beta" testing period was not available on the other forum, and the format, navigation and speed still leave a lot to be desired.  In their defense, they are a part of a much larger corporation that runs many forums under the same software.  Then again it would seem that a large corporation could have done a much better job of getting it right.  Oh well.  Good job here, Matthew.

As you mention, the idea here is in fact to have a "beta" period, where people can get accustomed to the new design, and help make sure everything works.  It also allows everyone to participate in the formation of that design, which is in line with my idea of making the Festool Owners Group as open and member-driven as possible.

ps - A comment about the banner that shows up now in Test (one with no tools).  Fade to black on a black background is not effective, IMHO.  And the sub-heading (Discussions and Multi....) is dim.  The white announcements on the right side of the banner show up well though.  I wish I had some graphics talent so I could help, but all I can do is comment.   

I think this might be something for the logo designer, in this case Brice.  If you want, David, post the same comments over in the Logo Contest discussion.

pps - It looks to me like there are several different fonts being used on the Test pages.  One lesson I learned from a web graphic artist was to minimize the number of different fonts on a page.  Too many fonts confuse the eyes.  Example - the font for the navigation buttons (Home, Help...) is different from the font for the thread control buttons (Mark Read, Notify...).  I would think the pages would look better if all of the button fonts were the same font.

Good eye on the fonts!  OK, the forum in general uses Verdana.  I believe I set Verdana to be everywhere in the forum, except the main menu.  For a sort of esoteric technical reason, the main menu needs to use Trebuchet font.  If you see something else in the forum not using Verdana, please tell me and I will correct it.

Thanks,
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

"Good eye on the fonts!  OK, the forum in general uses Verdana.  I believe I set Verdana to be everywhere in the forum, except the main menu.  For a sort of esoteric technical reason, the main menu needs to use Trebuchet font.  If you see something else in the forum not using Verdana, please tell me and I will correct it."


        No, No , I don't think we need to be throwing any cows here!



Seth

[Dan Clark]

Some points on the font sizes...

First, unless I'm missing something, this is related to the custom themes only.  I.e., when you change the font size (text sizes) in IE with a custom theme, the font sizes do NOT change.  Change to other new themes, and you'll see that it's the same.

However, if you change back to the "SMF Default Theme" ("Profile --> Look and Layout Preferences --> Change"), you'll notice that the fonts change consistently and normally.    I like the new themes much better (especially the current theme on the Test website), but I like the adjustable font sizes in the default theme.

Second, there is another alternative - "Accessibility" options.  In IE7, you can set it to make font sizes easier to read.   It's there for people with high resolution monitors (many people nowadays) or people with vision problems.    To change it from the IE7 menu:

1) Go to "Tools --> Internet Options --> Accessiblity".  ("Accessibility" is in the lower right corner of the "Internet Options" screen.

2) Click the "Accessiblity" button.  The "Accessiblity" window will open.

3) "Check" the option, "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages."   

4) Click "OK", then "OK".

Notice that font size options now work regardless of what is hard-coded in a theme.   

Some webpages use hard-coded font sizes.  Some don't.   With "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages" checked, you control the font sizes.   

Unfortunately, there is a downside with "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages" checked.  You may see that some pages get distorted, tool bar buttons don't work as expected, and menu items can do strange things.   It's a tradeoff.

Personally, I don't like hard-coded font sizes because they are too small to read with my older eyes and high-res monitors.   I normally just leave "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages" checked and accept the negatives.

YMMV.

Regards,

Dan.

[Ned]

Some points on the font sizes...

I agree with Dan, to the point that I'd say any theme that won't allow the user to vary the text size is unacceptable.

As un-fond as I am of IE, I still think that a website must work properly with that Microsoft browser.

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

BTW, is anyone out there routinely using Opera?  I'd like to know how the new site works for you.

Ned

[Carl Schellenberg]

Mathew,

The one feature of the current forum that I use everyday is the choice at the top to "show unread posts since last visit."  With the new forum I can't tell whether that feature remains.  I see that the icon will indicate which messages are new but can't tell whether you can just show only the new posts. I hope you can retain the current feature.

Thanks for all your efforts

Carl Schellenberg

[Bill Elliott]

Tried to log in to the new test forum and it wouldn't recognize my user name.  Do we need to re-register?

[Brice Burrell]

Tried to log in to the new test forum and it wouldn't recognize my user name.  Do we need to re-register?

Log in with
user name: test
password:   test

[Daviddubya]

Mathew,

The one feature of the current forum that I use everyday is the choice at the top to "show unread posts since last visit."  With the new forum I can't tell whether that feature remains....Carl Schellenberg

Carl - Look in the upper right corner - "Show unread..." is there.

[Dan Clark]

Some points on the font sizes...

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

Ned,

Are you referring to the current "production" FOG or "Test" FOG.  Font size adjustment works fine with producition FOG.

Dan.

[Ned]

Some points on the font sizes...

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

Ned,

Are you referring to the current "production" FOG or "Test" FOG.  Font size adjustment works fine with producition FOG.

Dan.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  With Windows/FireFox, I don't see any such problem with the Test FOG design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page...and just checked again.  Still works for me.

Ned

[Dan Clark]

Some points on the font sizes...

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

Ned,

Are you referring to the current "production" FOG or "Test" FOG.  Font size adjustment works fine with producition FOG.

Dan.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  With Windows/FireFox, I don't see any such problem with the Test FOG design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page...and just checked again.  Still works for me.

Ned

Ned,

It looks like this may be an IE specific problem.   I'm going to install Firefox again to see how it works.   

The market share numbers are not clear, but it looks like Internet Explorer has something like 67% of the market and Firefox has 16%.   While IE lost about 1.8% of the market in 2007, Firefox gained 1.6%.

I believe that FOG font sizes should work equally well in both browsers.

After I get Firefox installed, I'll compare IE and Firefox and report back.

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

OK.  I installed Firefox.  So now I have FF2 and IE7 installed side by side.   I have maybe 30 minutes experience with FF2.   So far I'm impressed. 

I'll compare FOG Test in both browsers later.  Here are some first impressions of FF2 vs IE7 in general:

FF2 vs IE7 in general:
IE7 beats FF2:
- The biggest issue I can see with FF2 is that fonts are not smooth.  They have jaggies.   IE fonts are smooth and more readable.   (Since I'm a newbie at FF2, there may be an option to change this and I just don't know it.)

- The second biggest issue I see with FF2 is that the <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- keys don't have quite enough granularity in the larger font sizes.   At one point, the font is bit too large and the next font size down is a bit too small.

FF2 beats IE7:
- Pretty much everything else.   I.e., I like almost every other feature in FF2 more than IE7. 

- Most specifically, I like the font size control MUCH better in FF2.   For someone with vision problems or a high res monitor, FF2 font size control is much easier.  Because you can change the font size VERY quickly in FF2, it becomes much less of an issue.  Clicking <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- is in FF2 is MUCH faster than clicking the font size menu item in IE7.

FOG Test font and other deferences - IE7 vs FF2 - Here is a quick sample screen shot of the text from one FOG-Test post:

The top is from IE7 and the second two are from FF2.   Overall, I like the smooth fonts and readability from IE7 better.

IMO, if there is a way to smooth the fonts in FF2 and the larger fonts can be incrementally sized a little better, then FF2 would be the perfect browser.

Dan.

[jonny round boy]

- Most specifically, I like the font size control MUCH better in FF2.   For someone with vision problems or a high res monitor, FF2 font size control is much easier.  Because you can change the font size VERY quickly in FF2, it becomes much less of an issue.  Clicking <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- is in FF2 is MUCH faster than clicking the font size menu item in IE7.

Dan,

Clicking <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- also works in IE7.....

[Ned]

Dan--

You running on XP or on Vista?  FF on Vista is as crisp as you could want.  I suspect IE7 may have font rendering abilities that make it look better on XP, and further suspect that that font rendering is available in the OS on Vista.

Firefox is available on several platforms, so specifying, say, XP/FF2 or Linux/FF2 is useful info.

There are some extremely cool and useful add-ons for FF.  Here's what I'm using:

IE Tab makes a tabbed window use the IE rendering engine, useful for those pathetic sites that just won't run right except with IE.  I think there's a similar add-on for Safari, for the Mac folks running FF.

Colour Contrast Analyser examines the readability of the currently displayed page.

Web Developer adds a context menu and toolbar with all kinds of goodies for web developers. 

I use NoScript and like it; Matthew hates it uses it too(see next post).  Extra protection against script-based attacks.

Colorful Tabs is a cosmetic improvement.  The browser window tabs are given different colors.


I really hope you become a convert.  I'm on sales commision.  Let's see, 15 percent of zero is...

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

I use NoScript and like it; Matthew hates it.  Extra protection against script-based attacks.

Actually, I've changed my mind on this little add-on!  When I commented about it a while back, I was still running SeaMonkey, an all-in-one browser/e-mail "suite" with many of the same components as Firefox.  The NoScript did not work very well for me in SeaMonkey.  But I've since switched entirely to Firefox/Thunderbird, and NoScript works well.

Like you, I find that Firefox is as smooth as could be expected (again, I'm running Linux, just to clarify).  Just as I believe strongly in the open-source community (such as SMF, which this forum us based on) I also feel strongly about the merits of Firefox over Internet Explorer.

With that said, any forum that wants to have lots of members needs to be accessible and fully functional in Internet Explorer.  That's my attitude here as well.

Matthew

[Dan Clark]

I'm using XP.  Not going to Vista until there is a reason to do so.   I'm not going to take the speed hit just to get "pretty".

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Quick update...

First, I found that Cleartype smoothing was turned off.  I believe that IE7 has some form of font smoothing regardless of your system setup.  Firefox does not appear to have this.   

When I turned of Cleartype, the fonts in FF2 seem to be as smooth as IE7.  Still not quite as clear, but very close.   (I'm not sure why IE7 fonts appear to be a bit clearer.)

JRB,

Unless IE7 has a setting I'm not aware of, the <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- in FF2 and in IE7 perform different functions.  In FF2, <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- is the same as increasing the font size in IE7.  The font's size increases and decreases.   In IE7, <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- zooms the window.   The entire window simply gets bigger and smaller. 

Either of these can be a plus or minus.   For normal web page reading, you want the text bigger but not the window.   When the window zooms in, it disappears off of the screen.   OTOH, if looking at a picture on a high res monitor, you may want to zoom in to see the pic bigger.

Overall, I like Firefox's approach better. I think I just switched to FF.

Dan.

[Ned]

Overall, I like Firefox's approach better. I think I just switched to FF.

Ka-ching!

BTW, you can enlarge the font in FF by holding down the Ctrl key and spinning the mouse wheel.  Away from your palm makes text smaller, toward your palm makes it bigger.

Ned

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   Matthew it looks like the post background color alternates now? But it is so sutle it is hard to tell.
   BTW I think the quote shading is right on.

Seth

[jonny round boy]

Matthew,

I like Andrew's logo that is on the test site at the moment (the white background with the large Domino image, in case it's changed again by the time someone reads this!).

The only thing about that though, is that the whole site looks very monochrome - there's very little colour. At least the current site has a blue theme. I even changed my avatar so it blended in better!!!! Guess I'll have to find another one!

[Ned]

Matthew,

I like Andrew's logo that is on the test site at the moment (the white background with the large Domino image, in case it's changed again by the time someone reads this!).

The only thing about that though, is that the whole site looks very monochrome - there's very little colour. At least the current site has a blue theme. I even changed my avatar so it blended in better!!!! Guess I'll have to find another one!

How about we just:

• Keep the current production (default) theme, modfying the palette to change the bluish to greenish.
• Use Andrew's series of logos, and rotate among them on a daily basis.  (If it's Tuesday, this must be Rotex.    )
• Call it a good job and move on.
  

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

Ned,
The default theme has too much going on in the upper regions, which is why I switched to the new design, which is so much cleaner in that area.  The top of the default theme always felt to me like a computerized layer cake!  The logo area especially does not allow for as much unique identity for the forum.

The style of the new design just allows so much more personality.  We can keep discussing color and graphical elements, getting the look closer to what we want.  Let's keep discussing the details, and then we can stand back and look at the new site, making a final judgment.

Matthew

[Fred West]

Matthew, I agree with some others that the new header design is nice but sterile. I loved the green on black look and it truly drew my eye to the forum. As a newbie I believe that my reaction would be WOW I need to check this out. First impressions truly do count for a lot. Fred

[Overtime]

Matthew,

I like Andrew's logo that is on the test site at the moment (the white background with the large Domino image, in case it's changed again by the time someone reads this!).

The only thing about that though, is that the whole site looks very monochrome - there's very little colour. At least the current site has a blue theme. I even changed my avatar so it blended in better!!!! Guess I'll have to find another one!

How about we just:

• Keep the current production (default) theme, modifying the palette to change the bluish to greenish.
• Use Andrew's series of logos, and rotate among them on a daily basis.  (If it's Tuesday, this must be Rotex.    )
• Call it a good job and move on.
  

Ned

I'm with Ned as This "defalt" was my favorite of all that has been presented thus far,
But if it is too complicated then move on. No need to add extra work to what should be smooth and pleasing for both the users and the IT department. And besides there have been lots of great formats.