Forum Re-Design

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
We're approaching the one-year anniversary of the new Festool Owners Group.  Throughout the first year, what you have seen is the "default" forum layout -- the most basic visual design.  Behind the scenes, I've been working on developing a more welcoming and unique design.  From the beginning, I've wanted this forum to be different in as many ways as possible, and that includes the way it looks and feels when people visit.  To do that, I want to move away from the default appearance.

Well, after many hours tweaking hundreds of lines of computer code and gathering knowledge from numerous technical sites, I'm proud to announce a major forum re-design.

Since this is a big change, I want members to have time to preview what's ahead before it becomes official.  To do this, I created a "test forum," which shows what the forum will look like when the re-design is launched.  Everyone is invited to browse the test forum, post a message or two over there, play with all the functions, then report back here.  Dan Clark has already spent quite some time in the test forum ahead of other members, and I've incorporated several of his ideas.


Logo Design
When you go into the test forum, you'll notice that the logo (the water-drop image) is kind of rough.  That's intentional.  Between now and the launch of the re-designed forum, there will be a "logo contest" in which members will have opportunities to submit logo designs.  To see more about the logo contest, click here.


Timeline for the rollout of the re-designed forum

• 1/15/08: Invite members to browse the test forum.
• 1/15/08: Announce the logo contest.
• 1/15/08 - 1/31/08: Gather comments about the re-designed forum, and, if necessary, make final design changes.
• 1/15/08 - 2/5/08: Gather entries for the logo contest.
• 2/8/08: Announce the winner and runners-up for the logo contest.
• 2/8/08: Launch the re-design in the main forum.

I'm sure we'll hear many opinions about the re-design.  I'll try to include as many of your ideas as possible, but I may not be able to include every single one.  I'm confident that, over the next few weeks, all of this will come together and the re-deigned forum will offer a better experience for everyone.  Even after the re-design is launched, member feedback will always be welcome.


See the re-design now!
To get a preview of the re-designed forum, follow this link:
http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/TestForum/index.php

Sign in with this information:
Username: test
Password: test


Matthew

[jonny round boy]

Matthew,

I've just had a very quick look at the test site, and I had an immediate 1st reaction, so I thought I share it with you. I really, really don't like the font used (georgia?) (I had to try hard not to use the word 'hate' in that sentence!).

Sorry to focus on the negative, but that was my first impression.

I realise that a lot of people (myself included, probably) react badly to changes simply because they are different from what they're used to - I'll have another look and give some feedback on the other aspects of the design later.

[greg mann]

I would have to say the font is not my favorite either but it is not quite the same emotional issue for me.

[Craig Earls]

I don't seem to exist...

[Jim Dailey]

Matthew,

What you have created here in the FOG was a great improvement over the Yahoo site.  I don't want to fault your initiative on trying to improve the current FOG, but it seems to me creating a whole new forum to be a lot of work for small visual improvements....   Maybe I a missing something...  But there is something to the old saying "if it works don't 'fix' it..."

I do very much appreciate all your hard work on making this forum a positive experience.

jim

[tvgordon]

I couldn't even log in.  It said to check my cookie settings.  Hmmm, chocolate chip does sound good!

Tom.

[CharlesWilson]

I guess I am a little slow, but I ended up registering my name in the 'new' forum. It didn't recognize my login from this one. I am sure you will move all that information over when things are finalized.

Of course, I didn't read your original post to the end, where it said to login as test/test. Lazy me!

I, personally, don't have any problems with the existing forum.

Will you be able to move everything from this forum over to there?

Charles

[Matthew Schenker]

Will you be able to move everything from this forum over to there?

Nothing needs to be moved.  When we are ready, I will apply the new design to the current forum.  The content itself does not get altered.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I just changed the board structure in the test forum so it is the same as the board structure in the main forum.  That should make it easier for people to review what it will look like in the end.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

What you have created here in the FOG was a great improvement over the Yahoo site.  I don't want to fault your initiative on trying to improve the current FOG, but it seems to me creating a whole new forum to be a lot of work for small visual improvements....   Maybe I a missing something...  But there is something to the old saying "if it works don't 'fix' it..."

Keep in mind that I'm not creating a whole new forum.  It's still SMF software, with all the same functions and design under the hood.  That's why I was careful to call it a "re-design," not a new forum.

I like SMF, and would not change it as the basis for the forum.  However, we have been using the "default" SMF template or "skin."  The re-design is a way of changing that skin, without altering the core functions of the forum.

I've always wanted this forum to have a more unique appearance, something that more closely represents the tools we discuss.  The trick, of course, is to keep what works, and add what will make it better.  That's what I'm trying to do with the new design.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

I've just had a very quick look at the test site, and I had an immediate 1st reaction, so I thought I share it with you. I really, really don't like the font used (georgia?) (I had to try hard not to use the word 'hate' in that sentence!).

Sorry to focus on the negative, but that was my first impression.

Good eye -- I am in fact using Georgia font.  It was a close call on fonts.  There were two or three that I like, but Georgia seemed to present a nice, clear impact.  The font used for the main forum is Verdana.  Anyway, the font is easy to change.

I realise that a lot of people (myself included, probably) react badly to changes simply because they are different from what they're used to - I'll have another look and give some feedback on the other aspects of the design later.

I knew going into this that people might react negatively because of the change in what they are used to seeing.  That's why I created the test forum.  People can browse, get accustomed to it, and if something really doesn't work I can change it.

Matthew

[Eli]

I don't know that I don't like the font necessarily, but it does seem a little harder for me to read. The overall feel seems a little bit colder in some way. I'd be willing to admit I like what I'm used to more. I do appreciate all the hard work Matthew.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

  I much prefer the current font. The current font also seems a little larger, is it?  I don't know if the new look has enough difference to be unique. Something about it looks ..hmm... not sure what word I am looking for ... maybe "commercial'?    
     Color wise I think the grey is fine (maybe make it a little lighter) but I have no problem with the current multi tone blue. For the most part it doesn't seem that much different. The only thing that I see that I would particularly not care for is the font.

            In truth I sort of liked the small tweaks you were doing in the current format.

        Do I have the correct understanding that the entire water drop header will be replaced?

Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

    I just took a second look.   Actually the grey seems good. And I see that there is a lighter shade used for that bottom bar. 
    Ummm..  I think the pink shading for the quote boxes needs to go. How about really light grey, to keep with the Festool them?

Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

        Do I have the correct understanding that the entire water drop header will be replaced?

Yes, that's what the logo contest is all about.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

It looks like Georgia is not a big favorite here!  I changed the font back to Verdana.
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Matthew,

  Yup,  one vote for Verdana.


Seth

[AndrewDS]

I actually really like the test forum.  I think the dark colors make it a lot easier to see.  I also like that whatever heading the mouse is on changes colors, which stands in contrast to just underlining.  I also like that the menu on the top header is larger and easier to read.  Of course, these are initial reactions, but on the whole I really like it!  Good job!

One question:

Will the new forum have a way to "mark" what subject or board one has already read?

[Ned]

Matthew--

I didn't want to be the first to say this, but I'm perfectly satisfied with the current theme for the forum.  My only hope for any redesign is that it be as clear and easy to use as FOG is now.

Although I don't know what's available in the SMF catalog, I'd rather see added functionality and continued tweaking.  It's working well.

Ned

[Fred West]

Matthew, I for one am completely digging the new changes. However, if the new Turbo Encabulator is not incorporated well then you can just count me out.  Fred

[Craig Earls]

I for one prefer the

retro encabulator

because of it superior documentation.

But back to point, I like the new design, and the verdana,  I got caught by the test/test thing too...

[Matthew Schenker]

I'm going to try and keep up on everyone's comments and feedback here, and tweak the re-design as we go along.  After all, that's the point of introducing a test site!

I actually really like the test forum.  I think the dark colors make it a lot easier to see.  I also like that whatever heading the mouse is on changes colors, which stands in contrast to just underlining.  I also like that the menu on the top header is larger and easier to read.  Of course, these are initial reactions, but on the whole I really like it!  Good job!

One question:

Will the new forum have a way to "mark" what subject or board one has already read?

Thanks!  Your points about the colors and menu design are my thinking as well.
The new forum will have all the same functionality as the current one.  Remember, it is the same core software, just a different "skin."

Matthew--

I didn't want to be the first to say this, but I'm perfectly satisfied with the current theme for the forum.  My only hope for any redesign is that it be as clear and easy to use as FOG is now.

Although I don't know what's available in the SMF catalog, I'd rather see added functionality and continued tweaking.  It's working well.

The problem with the current theme is that is it not distinctive enough.  If you browse around the Internet, you'll see several sites that use SMF with the default theme.  I want this site to have its own look, while still using the excellent core functions of SMF.  The re-design will certainly be as clear and easy to use as the default theme -- even more so.

As far as "continued tweaking" goes, the re-design does not change any of that.  I will continue to twek functions here and there to respond to members' ideas and requests, just as I have done in the default theme.  Remember, even though it looks very different, we are not talking about a new forum, but a re-design of the visual elements.

Matthew, I for one am completely digging the new changes. However, if the new Turbo Encabulator is not incorporated well then you can just count me out.  Fred

Thanks for the feedback.  Well, I can't promise to include the Encabulator!  Hopefully, there will be other elements that keep you interested!

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I think it would help us get a better sense of the re-design if there was a "real" logo in the header of the test forum.
As we get contributions from the logo contest, I'll install various ones as we go along.  I've just installed the first logo contest entry, provided by Scott W.  Check the test site to see what I mean.
Matthew

[Fred West]

Mathew, I really like Scott W. design. However, the section that tells us we have messages is almost completely obscured. So if that portion could be moved lower or defined better I really like this first entry. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

Fred,
Yes, I just adjusted the background color to take care of that.  Check the test site!
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

One question:

Will the new forum have a way to "mark" what subject or board one has already read?

Matthew,   
     
     Will the big letter F  continue this job by being colored or un-colored?   The color/ no color  really stands out nicely in its current form.  If the  F  was to be changed to a different symbol how about something representitive of each catagory?  Or a Systainer Latch that opens and closes?

Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

     Will the big letter F  continue this job by being colored or un-colored?   The color/ no color  really stands out nicely in its current form.  If the  F  was to be changed to a different symbol how about something representitive of each catagory?  Or a Systainer Latch that opens and closes?

I've thought about this before -- creating lively "new post indicators" for each board.  Right now, my plan is to continue using the "F" symbol, but I am open to new ideas, and now is definitely this is the right time to do it with a re-design in the works.

If you have some ideas to share, go ahead and post some samples and let's see what people think.  My one request is that you create a new discussion for "new post indicators" (or whatever name you choose).

Thanks for the ideas.

Matthew

[Fred West]

Matthew, I just refreshed and then logged out and back in. "Hello test" "You have" and "0 are new" are all easily read but not the rest. Fred PS Maybe it is just my monitor but it is brand new and a 19" Flat Screen so i will be very upset if this is the case.

[Matthew Schenker]

Matthew, I just refreshed and then logged out and back in. "Hello test" "You have" and "0 are new" are all easily read but not the rest. Fred PS Maybe it is just my monitor but it is brand new and a 19" Flat Screen so i will be very upset if this is the case.

Just to make sure, are you saying that you have trouble viewing these lines:
Show unread posts since last visit.
Show new replies to your posts.

I lightened the font for that region, so it should be clearer now.

Check it again and let me know.

Thanks,
Matthew

[Ned]

In the area that Fred reported, the gray text (color= #bcbcbc) on the blue background (#3d71ad) solidly fails all three color contrast tests.  Within the range of acceptable screen tuning, some screens will display this worse than others.

In general, "reverse" display, that is, lighter text on a darker background, does not work well, particularly for older eyes.  Try a site that uses a black background and light gray for the text...they may as well have a secret password that no one over 40 knows...

Fred, nothing wrong with your monitor.  The color combination doesn't look good on mine either.

Matthew, as I understand it, the new logo will be the background for this area, so perhaps this particular problem will go away on its own.

For fun and amusement, check out Web Pages That Suck.  He's just completed his ranking of the 10 worst sites of 2007.

Ned

[Fred West]

Matthew, that looks much better. Ned thank you very much as well. Fred

[Overtime]

Swap out the drill for the domino, the domi faceplate is very bright.

 I did like the Georgia fonts - Large , easy to read good spacing. Was real nice to type in message form also. But I did not like the funky numbers with the trailing number being large ?

 Any how something is missing on the main header fonts ?  Perhaps crisper letters or a black shadow line a little thicker ? The white shadow line is weak, and renders the lettering soft and mushy, kinda like cornflakes sitting in the milk a little too long. 

[Overtime]

Ok it's the color the green looks like pea soup  .  Change to the color green you get when the cursor highlights a topic heading, that might be more in line with Festool colors ? 

[Fred West]

Matthew, I love the green color and unlike Patrick do not think it looks like pea soup.  However, I think when when you go to the Home page the headings which are very legible just seem really stark. But then I am not a huge fan of black on white anyway. I love the black and green Festool colors and would love to see the heading in green with a black background or vice versa. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

In the area that Fred reported, the gray text (color= #bcbcbc) on the blue background (#3d71ad) solidly fails all three color contrast tests.  Within the range of acceptable screen tuning, some screens will display this worse than others.

Check the site again.  I changed the font to white against the blue (#3D71AD) background.  Fred reported that it looks better now.  How is it working for you?

Matthew, as I understand it, the new logo will be the background for this area, so perhaps this particular problem will go away on its own.

The header as you see it now (with Scott W's contribution) is a good example of the way things will eventually look.  We'll have a new graphic for the header, plus a background color that blends well with that graphic.

Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

        The white lettering seems to contrast very well in the logo as it stands now.  The more muted blue of the logo background looks a little dull tome though..    Then again this may not turn out to be the new logo either ( not that it isn't nice work Scott).

        Another thing I noticed is the thin green line running arond the pages. It is a small detail  , but I think it adds nicely to the overall look. Maybe it should go all the way around (across the top)  or even boarder the logo box area?

         Still think the pink shading for the quote box in a reply needs to go. Or is it just my monitor? How about trying very pale grey?

Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

        The white lettering seems to contrast very well in the logo as it stands now.  The more muted blue of the logo background looks a little dull tome though..    Then again this may not turn out to be the new logo either ( not that it isn't nice work Scott).

OK, good!  I'm glad it works well for you.  Yes, the logo might change (let's see what happens in the contest).  If the muted blue looks dull, I could change it to a darker, richer color.  The trick here is that the background of the logo needs to match (blend) witih the solid background of the header.

        Another thing I noticed is the thin green line running arond the pages. It is a small detail  , but I think it adds nicely to the overall look. Maybe it should go all the way around (across the top)  or even boarder the logo box area?

Thanks again for the feedback.  Yes, I put that detail in so I could add a subtle Festool-oriented detail.  I'm trying not to overdo the green too much!  But I just made it so the border goes all around (top, bottom, left, and right).  Tell me what you think.

         Still think the pink shading for the quote box in a reply needs to go. Or is it just my monitor?

I see what you mean.  I changed the quote area to light gray, which should work better for everyone.  Check the test site again to see the changes.

Thanks, and keep up with the ideas.

Matthew

[Fred West]

So, Matthew I love that if I click on "All Tools and Accessories" or any of the others they turn green but the black on white prior to that is just way to stark for me. Any other opinions/ideas? Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

Fred,
Are you suggesting a different font color, or a different background color?  In this case, I'm inclined to go with black on whiite, but, as always, I'm open to suggestions.
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

I like the colors and contrast.  Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the font size is noticeably larger when viewing a thread, compared to the Home page or the index page for a forum.  Personally, I prefer the larger font size - it is much easier to read for me.  Thanks for your efforts, Matthew.

[jonny round boy]

I like the colors and contrast.  Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the font size is noticeably larger when viewing a thread, compared to the Home page or the index page for a forum.  Personally, I prefer the larger font size - it is much easier to read for me.  Thanks for your efforts, Matthew.

David,

I don't know which browser you're using, but in IE (and probably a lot of the others too) you do have the option to change the font size of any standard web page, so if the font isn't large enough for you you can customise it. In IE click on 'page' > 'text size'.

[Fred West]

Matthew, I was suggesting possibly both or just one. For instance if you keep the font black then maybe the background the Festool green or the font green and the background black. To me it just seems stark and sterile whereas your current setup seems warm. I hope that this helps and/or makes sense. Always a distinct possibility with me that it is mere nonsense. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

        The white lettering seems to contrast very well in the logo as it stands now.  The more muted blue of the logo background looks a little dull tome though..    Then again this may not turn out to be the new logo either ( not that it isn't nice work Scott).

I just changed the header background color, and the background of the logo, to a richer blue color.  I think it contrasts much better with the text now, and shows the logo more boldly.  For those of you keeping score, the particular blue color is HTML code #003981.

        Another thing I noticed is the thin green line running arond the pages. It is a small detail  , but I think it adds nicely to the overall look. Maybe it should go all the way around (across the top)  or even boarder the logo box area?

I like your suggestion, so I added the border under the header area, beneath the logo.  I think this sets the header and logo off from the main menu nicely.

Take a look at these changes and tell me what you think.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

I like the colors and contrast.  Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the font size is noticeably larger when viewing a thread, compared to the Home page or the index page for a forum.  Personally, I prefer the larger font size - it is much easier to read for me.  Thanks for your efforts, Matthew.

I'm glad it works for you, David!  Keep browsing and tell me what you think about any other elements.
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

David,

I don't know which browser you're using, but in IE (and probably a lot of the others too) you do have the option to change the font size of any standard web page, so if the font isn't large enough for you you can customise it. In IE click on 'page' > 'text size'.

I just went to the test site again.  The "Text Size" parameter is under View in IE7.  The Text Size is set to Medium in my browser, and shows up as Medium in the Home Page and in the Forum index pages, as well as in a specific thread page.  The text is noticeably larger in the specific thread pages.  Therefore, I am led to conclude that the software in the test FOG is set to display one font size in the Home page and Forum index pages, and a different, larger, font size in the specific thread pages.  I'd like to see the same size font, the larger font, on all of the pages within FOG.  Am I making sense???

[Corwin]

The background color of the Spell Checker screen seems a little dark to me.  A lighter color might be nice.

Also, the "unread posts..." notifications are rather hard to read when placed over the banner area. 

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   I like the richer blue. I like thin line all the way around, and I like the grey quote shading.


Seth

[Eli]

Hi my name's Eli, and change scares me.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   O.K. on second look maybe a shade lighter on the quote shading. (yeah, I know - picky, picky..)


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

...The text is noticeably larger in the specific thread pages.  Therefore, I am led to conclude that the software in the test FOG is set to display one font size in the Home page and Forum index pages, and a different, larger, font size in the specific thread pages.  I'd like to see the same size font, the larger font, on all of the pages within FOG.  Am I making sense???

Check the site again.  I adjusted the fonts so they are the same in posts as on the home page.

The background color of the Spell Checker screen seems a little dark to me.  A lighter color might be nice.

Also, the "unread posts..." notifications are rather hard to read when placed over the banner area. 

I'm looking into the spell checker screen (have to figure out where that color is defined).

Notice that I am using another logo submitted by Scott W.  It has a deeper color than the last one, which shows the white login information more clearly.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Hi,

   O.K. on second look maybe a shade lighter on the quote shading. (yeah, I know - picky, picky..)


Seth

Check the test site again!

[Overtime]

Oh yea much better and no more split pea soup green    Lookin good    

[Daviddubya]

...The text is noticeably larger in the specific thread pages.  Therefore, I am led to conclude that the software in the test FOG is set to display one font size in the Home page and Forum index pages, and a different, larger, font size in the specific thread pages.  I'd like to see the same size font, the larger font, on all of the pages within FOG.  Am I making sense???

Check the site again.  I adjusted the fonts so they are the same in posts as on the home page....


Matthew

Thanks Matthew, they look more consistent now.  But...  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.  You didn't use the larger fonts. 

[Ned]

Hi my name's Eli, and change scares me.

"I don't mind change.  I just don't want to be there when it happens."
      -- Monk

[Fred West]

Matthew that header is great and the "New Message" notice area is very easy to read. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

Thanks Matthew, they look more consistent now.  But...  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.  You didn't use the larger fonts. 

Well, I can either have the fonts be a consistent size on the home page and in the posting areas, or I can have them be relatively larger in the posting area.  There is a problem with letting the fonts get too big on the home page.

Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

      I don't know about anyone else , but I like that color grey for the quote shading.

       On the current forum the posts are "separated" by  alternating white / pale blue. I cannot see that type of separation on my screen. Is there supposed to be a color alternation?  If not, then some more prominent form of separation would be good.  You could try a very light grey. If that results in  too much grey for  a nice appearance, then maybe something else.  Wide black line or thin green in between? Or guide rail graphic?  I don't know... something?


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

    Also on the logo could the jig saw be moved to the left , out from behind the text?  Not sure which way would look better.

    I like the black shadows better than the white of the previous logo.


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi again,

       How about using a guide rail ( FS/2 please ) for one or both of the grey bars across the top of the pages?  I don't know the tech term- the ones with  home, messages, help, etc.    It might help give the forum that unique look.

      I definitely like the green hover color on everything

Seth

[Daviddubya]

Well, I can either have the fonts be a consistent size on the home page and in the posting areas, or I can have them be relatively larger in the posting area.  There is a problem with letting the fonts get too big on the home page.

Matthew

If I had to choose, I'd go with a consistent font size.  Thanks.

[Brice Burrell]

Well, I can either have the fonts be a consistent size on the home page and in the posting areas, or I can have them be relatively larger in the posting area.  There is a problem with letting the fonts get too big on the home page.

Matthew

If I had to choose, I'd go with a consistent font size.  Thanks.

Darn, I'd go with larger post fonts.

[Matthew Schenker]

       On the current forum the posts are "separated" by  alternating white / pale blue. I cannot see that type of separation on my screen. Is there supposed to be a color alternation?  If not, then some more prominent form of separation would be good.  You could try a very light grey.

There was an alternating color in the original design, but it was removed in my initial testing.  I also like that alternating color scheme, so I'll add it back in momentarily!  Keep checking the test site to see the changes.

       How about using a guide rail ( FS/2 please ) for one or both of the grey bars across the top of the pages?  I don't know the tech term- the ones with  home, messages, help, etc.    It might help give the forum that unique look.

I'm not sure how such a graphic would look, but I might give it a try later on, when the other elements are in place.  It might give the forum more of a Festool-oriented theme.  Stay tuned on this.

Matthew

[Tinker]

Matt, I have not had time to wade thru all of the very interresting replies.  I have not taken the time to check the new format.  i barely have time right now to insert my own reply.  Eventually, I will address all of these issues.

I do want to make one comment, even tho it does not address the actual format. 

I have always been very impressed with the amount of effort you, personally, have put into the developement of this very wonderful and functional site.  I have been a participant of other WW forums over as many years as I have had internet capability.  Most recently, I had been involved for all of those years with a forum developed by one of the WW magazines that I had subscribed to for an even longer time.  Within the past year, they redid the forum amid many kudos from members who indicated their excited anticipation.

When the forum went into its newer metomorphosis, I suddenly discovered I could no longer communicate.  I tried everything including sending notes to the mag itself.  No replies and no positive results.  Eventually, another member who was having the same problem managed somehow to put in his own complaint to the forum.  His complaint exactly matched my own problems.  The reply was to disconnect all of the cookies, or something like that (I am not a computer expert, so that was not an option for me as i do not know how to reconnect.  I have been thru that and required help to reorganize my computer.  NOT fun AND expensive).  The guy replied with about the same observation as I have related about my own situation.  The reply from the forom troubleshooting host was to replace his Mac with a PC.  I did have E- for some of the other forum members and sent personal notes which were then relayed to forum hosts.  NEVER have I received any reply from those hosts or from the mag itself.  I can still access and I have noticed the absence of several other "previous" members. I can see they do not, in any way, care.

This rather long post is not meant to point out what I perceive as a deficiency of some other forums, but rather to point out how much I admire your own hard work, patience and, above all, your compassion to try to get this thing as near to perfect as possible for all.  An impossible task, but I. for one, am most appreciative.  I have total confidence that you will get it right.  As my old HS shop teacher used to say, "There is no s'ch thin' es gud'n'nuff, it's gotta be purfeck."  I think you will get it there, and then still keep tweaking.
Tinker

[Daviddubya]

Tinker - I am a participant in the forum you referenced.  It is a wonderful advantage here to be able to preview the new forum design and make comments that are then implemented.  Unfortunately, such a "beta" testing period was not available on the other forum, and the format, navigation and speed still leave a lot to be desired.  In their defense, they are a part of a much larger corporation that runs many forums under the same software.  Then again it would seem that a large corporation could have done a much better job of getting it right.  Oh well.  Good job here, Matthew.

ps - A comment about the banner that shows up now in Test (one with no tools).  Fade to black on a black background is not effective, IMHO.  And the sub-heading (Discussions and Multi....) is dim.  The white announcements on the right side of the banner show up well though.  I wish I had some graphics talent so I could help, but all I can do is comment.   

pps - It looks to me like there are several different fonts being used on the Test pages.  One lesson I learned from a web graphic artist was to minimize the number of different fonts on a page.  Too many fonts confuse the eyes.  Example - the font for the navigation buttons (Home, Help...) is different from the font for the thread control buttons (Mark Read, Notify...).  I would think the pages would look better if all of the button fonts were the same font.

[Tinker]

David, the big difference here is that everybody involved is not only interrested in their tools, but also the people who are visiting, whether every day, or occasionally.  It is a great feeling to become involved with such a group and to know that those with the wherewithall to keep it together are trying to satisfy all.
Tinker

[Fred West]

Matthew, that black and green is a VERY striking header and extremely easy to read as well as just sexy. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

Tinker - I am a participant in the forum you referenced.  It is a wonderful advantage here to be able to preview the new forum design and make comments that are then implemented.  Unfortunately, such a "beta" testing period was not available on the other forum, and the format, navigation and speed still leave a lot to be desired.  In their defense, they are a part of a much larger corporation that runs many forums under the same software.  Then again it would seem that a large corporation could have done a much better job of getting it right.  Oh well.  Good job here, Matthew.

As you mention, the idea here is in fact to have a "beta" period, where people can get accustomed to the new design, and help make sure everything works.  It also allows everyone to participate in the formation of that design, which is in line with my idea of making the Festool Owners Group as open and member-driven as possible.

ps - A comment about the banner that shows up now in Test (one with no tools).  Fade to black on a black background is not effective, IMHO.  And the sub-heading (Discussions and Multi....) is dim.  The white announcements on the right side of the banner show up well though.  I wish I had some graphics talent so I could help, but all I can do is comment.   

I think this might be something for the logo designer, in this case Brice.  If you want, David, post the same comments over in the Logo Contest discussion.

pps - It looks to me like there are several different fonts being used on the Test pages.  One lesson I learned from a web graphic artist was to minimize the number of different fonts on a page.  Too many fonts confuse the eyes.  Example - the font for the navigation buttons (Home, Help...) is different from the font for the thread control buttons (Mark Read, Notify...).  I would think the pages would look better if all of the button fonts were the same font.

Good eye on the fonts!  OK, the forum in general uses Verdana.  I believe I set Verdana to be everywhere in the forum, except the main menu.  For a sort of esoteric technical reason, the main menu needs to use Trebuchet font.  If you see something else in the forum not using Verdana, please tell me and I will correct it.

Thanks,
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

"Good eye on the fonts!  OK, the forum in general uses Verdana.  I believe I set Verdana to be everywhere in the forum, except the main menu.  For a sort of esoteric technical reason, the main menu needs to use Trebuchet font.  If you see something else in the forum not using Verdana, please tell me and I will correct it."


        No, No , I don't think we need to be throwing any cows here!



Seth

[Dan Clark]

Some points on the font sizes...

First, unless I'm missing something, this is related to the custom themes only.  I.e., when you change the font size (text sizes) in IE with a custom theme, the font sizes do NOT change.  Change to other new themes, and you'll see that it's the same.

However, if you change back to the "SMF Default Theme" ("Profile --> Look and Layout Preferences --> Change"), you'll notice that the fonts change consistently and normally.    I like the new themes much better (especially the current theme on the Test website), but I like the adjustable font sizes in the default theme.

Second, there is another alternative - "Accessibility" options.  In IE7, you can set it to make font sizes easier to read.   It's there for people with high resolution monitors (many people nowadays) or people with vision problems.    To change it from the IE7 menu:

1) Go to "Tools --> Internet Options --> Accessiblity".  ("Accessibility" is in the lower right corner of the "Internet Options" screen.

2) Click the "Accessiblity" button.  The "Accessiblity" window will open.

3) "Check" the option, "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages."   

4) Click "OK", then "OK".

Notice that font size options now work regardless of what is hard-coded in a theme.   

Some webpages use hard-coded font sizes.  Some don't.   With "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages" checked, you control the font sizes.   

Unfortunately, there is a downside with "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages" checked.  You may see that some pages get distorted, tool bar buttons don't work as expected, and menu items can do strange things.   It's a tradeoff.

Personally, I don't like hard-coded font sizes because they are too small to read with my older eyes and high-res monitors.   I normally just leave "Ignore font sizes specified on webpages" checked and accept the negatives.

YMMV.

Regards,

Dan.

[Ned]

Some points on the font sizes...

I agree with Dan, to the point that I'd say any theme that won't allow the user to vary the text size is unacceptable.

As un-fond as I am of IE, I still think that a website must work properly with that Microsoft browser.

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

BTW, is anyone out there routinely using Opera?  I'd like to know how the new site works for you.

Ned

[Carl Schellenberg]

Mathew,

The one feature of the current forum that I use everyday is the choice at the top to "show unread posts since last visit."  With the new forum I can't tell whether that feature remains.  I see that the icon will indicate which messages are new but can't tell whether you can just show only the new posts. I hope you can retain the current feature.

Thanks for all your efforts

Carl Schellenberg

[Bill Elliott]

Tried to log in to the new test forum and it wouldn't recognize my user name.  Do we need to re-register?

[Brice Burrell]

Tried to log in to the new test forum and it wouldn't recognize my user name.  Do we need to re-register?

Log in with
user name: test
password:   test

[Daviddubya]

Mathew,

The one feature of the current forum that I use everyday is the choice at the top to "show unread posts since last visit."  With the new forum I can't tell whether that feature remains....Carl Schellenberg

Carl - Look in the upper right corner - "Show unread..." is there.

[Dan Clark]

Some points on the font sizes...

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

Ned,

Are you referring to the current "production" FOG or "Test" FOG.  Font size adjustment works fine with producition FOG.

Dan.

[Ned]

Some points on the font sizes...

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

Ned,

Are you referring to the current "production" FOG or "Test" FOG.  Font size adjustment works fine with producition FOG.

Dan.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  With Windows/FireFox, I don't see any such problem with the Test FOG design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page...and just checked again.  Still works for me.

Ned

[Dan Clark]

Some points on the font sizes...

That said, with Windows/FireFox, I don't see any problem with the current-at-this-moment design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page.  Dan, am I not looking in the right place, or is this an IE-specific problem?

Ned,

Are you referring to the current "production" FOG or "Test" FOG.  Font size adjustment works fine with producition FOG.

Dan.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  With Windows/FireFox, I don't see any such problem with the Test FOG design.  I can adjust the font size on both the main page and the help page...and just checked again.  Still works for me.

Ned

Ned,

It looks like this may be an IE specific problem.   I'm going to install Firefox again to see how it works.   

The market share numbers are not clear, but it looks like Internet Explorer has something like 67% of the market and Firefox has 16%.   While IE lost about 1.8% of the market in 2007, Firefox gained 1.6%.

I believe that FOG font sizes should work equally well in both browsers.

After I get Firefox installed, I'll compare IE and Firefox and report back.

Regards,

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

OK.  I installed Firefox.  So now I have FF2 and IE7 installed side by side.   I have maybe 30 minutes experience with FF2.   So far I'm impressed. 

I'll compare FOG Test in both browsers later.  Here are some first impressions of FF2 vs IE7 in general:

FF2 vs IE7 in general:
IE7 beats FF2:
- The biggest issue I can see with FF2 is that fonts are not smooth.  They have jaggies.   IE fonts are smooth and more readable.   (Since I'm a newbie at FF2, there may be an option to change this and I just don't know it.)

- The second biggest issue I see with FF2 is that the <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- keys don't have quite enough granularity in the larger font sizes.   At one point, the font is bit too large and the next font size down is a bit too small.

FF2 beats IE7:
- Pretty much everything else.   I.e., I like almost every other feature in FF2 more than IE7. 

- Most specifically, I like the font size control MUCH better in FF2.   For someone with vision problems or a high res monitor, FF2 font size control is much easier.  Because you can change the font size VERY quickly in FF2, it becomes much less of an issue.  Clicking <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- is in FF2 is MUCH faster than clicking the font size menu item in IE7.

FOG Test font and other deferences - IE7 vs FF2 - Here is a quick sample screen shot of the text from one FOG-Test post:

The top is from IE7 and the second two are from FF2.   Overall, I like the smooth fonts and readability from IE7 better.

IMO, if there is a way to smooth the fonts in FF2 and the larger fonts can be incrementally sized a little better, then FF2 would be the perfect browser.

Dan.

[jonny round boy]

- Most specifically, I like the font size control MUCH better in FF2.   For someone with vision problems or a high res monitor, FF2 font size control is much easier.  Because you can change the font size VERY quickly in FF2, it becomes much less of an issue.  Clicking <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- is in FF2 is MUCH faster than clicking the font size menu item in IE7.

Dan,

Clicking <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- also works in IE7.....

[Ned]

Dan--

You running on XP or on Vista?  FF on Vista is as crisp as you could want.  I suspect IE7 may have font rendering abilities that make it look better on XP, and further suspect that that font rendering is available in the OS on Vista.

Firefox is available on several platforms, so specifying, say, XP/FF2 or Linux/FF2 is useful info.

There are some extremely cool and useful add-ons for FF.  Here's what I'm using:

IE Tab makes a tabbed window use the IE rendering engine, useful for those pathetic sites that just won't run right except with IE.  I think there's a similar add-on for Safari, for the Mac folks running FF.

Colour Contrast Analyser examines the readability of the currently displayed page.

Web Developer adds a context menu and toolbar with all kinds of goodies for web developers. 

I use NoScript and like it; Matthew hates it uses it too(see next post).  Extra protection against script-based attacks.

Colorful Tabs is a cosmetic improvement.  The browser window tabs are given different colors.


I really hope you become a convert.  I'm on sales commision.  Let's see, 15 percent of zero is...

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

I use NoScript and like it; Matthew hates it.  Extra protection against script-based attacks.

Actually, I've changed my mind on this little add-on!  When I commented about it a while back, I was still running SeaMonkey, an all-in-one browser/e-mail "suite" with many of the same components as Firefox.  The NoScript did not work very well for me in SeaMonkey.  But I've since switched entirely to Firefox/Thunderbird, and NoScript works well.

Like you, I find that Firefox is as smooth as could be expected (again, I'm running Linux, just to clarify).  Just as I believe strongly in the open-source community (such as SMF, which this forum us based on) I also feel strongly about the merits of Firefox over Internet Explorer.

With that said, any forum that wants to have lots of members needs to be accessible and fully functional in Internet Explorer.  That's my attitude here as well.

Matthew

[Dan Clark]

I'm using XP.  Not going to Vista until there is a reason to do so.   I'm not going to take the speed hit just to get "pretty".

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Quick update...

First, I found that Cleartype smoothing was turned off.  I believe that IE7 has some form of font smoothing regardless of your system setup.  Firefox does not appear to have this.   

When I turned of Cleartype, the fonts in FF2 seem to be as smooth as IE7.  Still not quite as clear, but very close.   (I'm not sure why IE7 fonts appear to be a bit clearer.)

JRB,

Unless IE7 has a setting I'm not aware of, the <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- in FF2 and in IE7 perform different functions.  In FF2, <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- is the same as increasing the font size in IE7.  The font's size increases and decreases.   In IE7, <ctrl>+ and <ctrl>- zooms the window.   The entire window simply gets bigger and smaller. 

Either of these can be a plus or minus.   For normal web page reading, you want the text bigger but not the window.   When the window zooms in, it disappears off of the screen.   OTOH, if looking at a picture on a high res monitor, you may want to zoom in to see the pic bigger.

Overall, I like Firefox's approach better. I think I just switched to FF.

Dan.

[Ned]

Overall, I like Firefox's approach better. I think I just switched to FF.

Ka-ching!

BTW, you can enlarge the font in FF by holding down the Ctrl key and spinning the mouse wheel.  Away from your palm makes text smaller, toward your palm makes it bigger.

Ned

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   Matthew it looks like the post background color alternates now? But it is so sutle it is hard to tell.
   BTW I think the quote shading is right on.

Seth

[jonny round boy]

Matthew,

I like Andrew's logo that is on the test site at the moment (the white background with the large Domino image, in case it's changed again by the time someone reads this!).

The only thing about that though, is that the whole site looks very monochrome - there's very little colour. At least the current site has a blue theme. I even changed my avatar so it blended in better!!!! Guess I'll have to find another one!

[Ned]

Matthew,

I like Andrew's logo that is on the test site at the moment (the white background with the large Domino image, in case it's changed again by the time someone reads this!).

The only thing about that though, is that the whole site looks very monochrome - there's very little colour. At least the current site has a blue theme. I even changed my avatar so it blended in better!!!! Guess I'll have to find another one!

How about we just:

• Keep the current production (default) theme, modfying the palette to change the bluish to greenish.
• Use Andrew's series of logos, and rotate among them on a daily basis.  (If it's Tuesday, this must be Rotex.    )
• Call it a good job and move on.
  

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

Ned,
The default theme has too much going on in the upper regions, which is why I switched to the new design, which is so much cleaner in that area.  The top of the default theme always felt to me like a computerized layer cake!  The logo area especially does not allow for as much unique identity for the forum.

The style of the new design just allows so much more personality.  We can keep discussing color and graphical elements, getting the look closer to what we want.  Let's keep discussing the details, and then we can stand back and look at the new site, making a final judgment.

Matthew

[Fred West]

Matthew, I agree with some others that the new header design is nice but sterile. I loved the green on black look and it truly drew my eye to the forum. As a newbie I believe that my reaction would be WOW I need to check this out. First impressions truly do count for a lot. Fred

[Overtime]

Matthew,

I like Andrew's logo that is on the test site at the moment (the white background with the large Domino image, in case it's changed again by the time someone reads this!).

The only thing about that though, is that the whole site looks very monochrome - there's very little colour. At least the current site has a blue theme. I even changed my avatar so it blended in better!!!! Guess I'll have to find another one!

How about we just:

• Keep the current production (default) theme, modifying the palette to change the bluish to greenish.
• Use Andrew's series of logos, and rotate among them on a daily basis.  (If it's Tuesday, this must be Rotex.    )
• Call it a good job and move on.
  

Ned

I'm with Ned as This "defalt" was my favorite of all that has been presented thus far,
But if it is too complicated then move on. No need to add extra work to what should be smooth and pleasing for both the users and the IT department. And besides there have been lots of great formats.

[Matthew Schenker]

How about we just:

• Keep the current production (default) theme, modfying the palette to change the bluish to greenish.
• Use Andrew's series of logos, and rotate among them on a daily basis.  (If it's Tuesday, this must be Rotex.    )
• Call it a good job and move on.
  

I'm with Ned as This "defalt" was my favorite of all that has been presented thus far,
But if it is too complicated then move on. No need to add extra work to what should be smooth and pleasing for both the users and the IT department. And besides there have been lots of great formats.

Everyone,
OK, let me say that behind this whole effort is something bigger than just changing superficial visuals. I was going to bring this up later, but I think I need to put it out there now...

Besides the visual ugliness of the default format (SMF), there are several other limitations I am trying to address here.  I've been listening to members and taking note of which  features, and the kind of functionality and ease people want.  Several of these features simply aren't available with the core software we're now using.  This whole discussion is a way to ease us into a point where we can test and compare two very different core formats and then make a major move.  My approach is to introduce the concept through test forums, where we can debate the details for a while long before the actual changes are implemented.  All the design questions coming up here are helping me see what people want.

All of us agree that when we moved to this new format a year ago, it was a vast improvement from the original.  But in the past year, I have learned a lot about what makes a real forum work, and I am looking for the best match for our needs.  Major changes should not happen on a whim, and that is why I am taking such pains to discuss it before anything happens.

Just stick with the discussion, and keep telling me what you want to have in your forum.  This will all become clearer as we move ahead.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I should have added in my last post that SMF is about to release a major upgrade (V. 2.0), with numerous new features.  As much as possible, I'm trying to coincide the proposed re-design with that upgrade, as I also look at other options for us.  It's all about making the forum experience smooth and easy.

I'm probably putting too much under-the-hood information here!  Usually, I keep this stuff quiet, but this is the one discussion where I feel it's appropriate.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

[Fred West]

Matthew, I disagree. I think your introduction of the "under the hood" information has been vital and stimulating. I very much applaud you for doing so and thank you as well. Fred

[SRSemenza]

Matthew wrote-"I also did a couple of other small tweaks.  can youi see what they are?"


     I see that the thin line is now a thicker thin line.  Looks good! I like it better. Maybe it should be thicker across the top too, and seperate the logo and/or other stuff with the real thin line?


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

     I see that the thin line is now a thicker thin line.  Looks good! I like it better. Maybe it should be thicker across the top too, and seperate the logo and/or other stuff with the real thin line?

Glad you like it.  I'm continuing to make small changes, and I am always interested to hear member reactions.
Keep checking the test site!
Thanks,
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

A progress note on the re-design effort...

I just changed the "Reply," "Notify," "Mark unread," "Send this topic," "Print" and similar text to buttons.  This makes them stand out much better.

This morning, I'm editing the buttons so they match the forum's general color scheme.

Matthew

[Ned]

A progress note on the re-design effort...

I just changed the "Reply," "Notify," "Mark unread," "Send this topic," "Print" and similar text to buttons.  This makes them stand out much better.

This morning, I'm editing the buttons so they match the forum's general color scheme.

Matthew

The button text is almost unreadable on my screen.  It looks even smaller than the menu bar text, which is right at the limit, IMO.

In the current production version, buttons (like Post, Preview, Spell Check) react to being hovered over, along with links and the menu bar (Home, Help, etc.)

In the test version, the behavior is similar, except that these latest buttons (Reply, Notify, etc.) don't react.  Can't tell they're live.

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

The button text is almost unreadable on my screen.  It looks even smaller than the menu bar text, which is right at the limit, IMO.

I can try to work on that.  Is everyone else experiencing the same issue with the buttons?

In the current production version, buttons (like Post, Preview, Spell Check) react to being hovered over, along with links and the menu bar (Home, Help, etc.)

In the test version, the behavior is similar, except that these latest buttons (Reply, Notify, etc.) don't react.  Can't tell they're live.

Doesn't your mouse pointer change from an arrow to the hand (or whatever the pointer is in your theme)?

Matthew

[Ned]

In the current production version, buttons (like Post, Preview, Spell Check) react to being hovered over, along with links and the menu bar (Home, Help, etc.)

In the test version, the behavior is similar, except that these latest buttons (Reply, Notify, etc.) don't react.  Can't tell they're live.

Doesn't your mouse pointer change from an arrow to the hand (or whatever the pointer is in your theme)?

Matthew

You're right, I now see the pointer does change.  So I need to change my claim from "Can't tell they're live." to "Didn't notice that they were live, because all other hotspots on the screen change both the pointer and color.  Obviously I'm depending on the color change to tell me.

Ned

[Daviddubya]

The button text is almost unreadable on my screen.  It looks even smaller than the menu bar text, which is right at the limit, IMO.

I can try to work on that.  Is everyone else experiencing the same issue with the buttons?

...Matthew

I doubt it would surprise you if I said I think the font size is too small on most of the new forum design.  There - I said it again!  Smile and thanks.

[Fred West]

Matthew, I must agree with a few of the others that I found it hard to realize that the "reply", "notify", etc. buttons were live as they did not turn green as everything else does when you place the cursor on it. If for some reason in 2.0 you are unable to have them turn green then can the neat little icons to the right of them turn green or can the cursor itself turn green? Fred P.S. what a great job you are doing.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   Nice icons. But make them change color.


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

I'd be interested to hear from others if this is an issue, as I am always curious about people's experiences navigating the site.

I guess I'm a little surprised to hear that this is a problem.  Yes, text elements do have hover colors, but very often "button-like" elements do not need hover colors (for example, the "F" and "new" indicators) because the transforming mouse pointer is usually enough to indicate that it's active.

In the meantime, I'll look into how to create some kind of hover color on button elements.

Matt

[Dan Clark]

Matthew,

The buttons look nice.  However, I think they are a step back.   

Unlike the icons in the current forum, with the new buttons, the font color does not change during mouseover and the font size is fixed.   At least with FireFox, scrolling the mousewheel increases the button font size in  production FOG but does not do this in test FOG.   On a higher resolution monitor, it's difficult to see the text.   This is makes them more difficult to use.

Regards,

Dan. 

[Ned]

Unlike the icons in the current forum, with the new buttons, the font color does not change during mouseover and the font size is fixed.   At least with FireFox, scrolling the mousewheel increases the button font size in  production FOG but does not do this in test FOG.   On a higher resolution monitor, it's difficult to see the text.   This is makes them more difficult to use.

On a higher res monitor...or with older eyes.

Thanks Dan for catching this.  Since I routinely change the size back and forth, I frequently don't know what the "normal" image would look like.

I don't know a name for the UI element at the top of the page in both Production and Test, the thing that shows Home, Help, Search, etc.   It's not a menu bar, since none of the sub-elements act like menus.  They all act like buttons--click it and off you go without further ado.  I think it's a button bar, and that's what I'll call it until someone comes up with something better.

All button bars in both production FOG and test FOG respond to this enlargement chosen by the user, including the button bar recently replaced by buttons that we're discussing here.

IMO, no change that degrades the user-controlled flexibility of the site is a good change.

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

Good afternoon,
OK, I'm going to get rid of those buttons and put back the text.  Doesn't seem to be a good option here.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
Just a note to everyone following along: I fixed the background color of the spelling checker in the test forum.  Now it is white.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
I've made a few more changes to the test site, adding alternating colors.  I'm using the same alternating colors we now have in the main forum, since people seem to like those.  Check out the test forum to see what the changes look like.

Now that the logo poll is closed, and we have a winner (Andrew Ledbetter's series) I'm smoothing out the way the new logos work with the welcome text.  Over the next few days, you can see the progress on this by checking out the test forum.

Although I had originally planed to launch the new site today, I'm delaying implementation for a little bit, as I work to tweak a few more details and allow members to comment some more on various elements.  Andrew and I will be working off-line to finalize the logo appearance.

Thanks,
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

Looking good Matthew.  I imagine you have discovered that you have an error in the placement of the logo right now.  It overlays the links on the right side of the banner area.

[Matthew Schenker]

Looking good Matthew.  I imagine you have discovered that you have an error in the placement of the logo right now.  It overlays the links on the right side of the banner area.

Yes, that's sort of intentional.  Andrew is working on redesigning the logos to work better with the welcome text by switching the text and graphic portions (or some other fix).  It will make sense soon!
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

    I think the new forum design is shaping up nicely. On the logo I like the "recent unread post" etc  better when stacked up on the right rather than above the logo words.  Seems like it is intruding / crowded on the OWNERS GROUP"


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi again,

  I also prefer the solid black  line around the quote boxes over the dotted.


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Me again,

    The alternating blue is ok. Not sure it jives really well with the grey quote shading.  How about trying a VERY pale green for the alternating color?

Seth

[Brice Burrell]

Matthew is there a ETA for the change over yet?

[Matthew Schenker]

    The alternating blue is ok. Not sure it jives really well with the grey quote shading.  How about trying a VERY pale green for the alternating color?

Yeah, I agree.  I just added a new shade -- a very light "blush" of green (don't want to overdo it).  Check the test forum now.  The trick is seeing how it shows up on different people's monitors, so if everyone would take a look and report back that would be great.

Matthew is there a ETA for the change over yet?

I'm making sure everything is in place visually and functionally.  No need to rush.  But I am hoping to confirm the new design by the end of this week and then activate it over the weekend.

While we're discussing this, everyone please take a look at the Test Forum and let me know how it works for you.  As I mentioned above, different monitors and different systems may display various things differently.

Couple of recent changes:
1. I fixed the "welcome text" so it does not overlap the text of the logo.
2. Andrew submitted an "edited" version of his logo series -- slightly smaller ones that should work better on smaller monitors.

One last thing: remember that even after the new design is launched, I can still tweak things if necessary.

Matthew

[Ned]

1. I fixed the "welcome text" so it does not overlap the text of the logo.

Yup.  Looks good on an 800px-wide screen.

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

Ned,
Since you're using an 800px monitor, can you also tell me if the size of the logo is good?  Does it occupy too much of the screen, or do you think it works well?
Also, how does the light green shading for the alternating columns look?
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

Coming together nicely, Matthew.  My screen is 1280 X 1024.

A couple of suggestions - put the Welcome text and links in the right side of the banner back the way it was - with Show unread... and Show new... on seperate lines.  That text still crowds and overlaps the logo.  When it was on four lines instead of three, it worked better, IMHO.

Try the logo in a vertically centered position within the banner, or at least a bit higher.  It's close to the bottom now.

The logo and the Welcome text need to work together.  They seem to be fighting each other right now.

I like the light green shading.

[jonny round boy]

A couple of suggestions - put the Welcome text and links in the right side of the banner back the way it was - with Show unread... and Show new... on seperate lines.  That text still crowds and overlaps the logo.  When it was on four lines instead of three, it worked better, IMHO.

I agree - I didn't see the test forum when it was on 4 lines, but it doesn't seem to work on 3. Show unread... and show new.... need to be on separate lines.

Other than that, it looks great!

[Ned]

Ned,
Since you're using an 800px monitor, can you also tell me if the size of the logo is good?  Does it occupy too much of the screen, or do you think it works well?
Also, how does the light green shading for the alternating columns look?
Matthew

My comment before was based on narrowing the browser window, not actually running 800x600.  I have switched my secondary monitor to 800x600, and all the comments here are based on looking at that monitor.

The FOG heading looks fine.  The logo's just fine horizontally, and logo and two text areas ("Welcome..." and "Festool..." don't overlap and look pretty good.

The logo defines the vertical space required by the heading, changing text size has no effect.  The heading takes up about 30% of the vertical on 800x600. 

Since modern browsers let us play with text size, I can't really say "how it looks on 800x600", I can only say how it looks on mine.  Ditto questions of color--doesn't look bad on mine.

I do wonder if 800x600 is now obsolete as a minimum, and if 1024x768 or 1280x1024 should be the current minimum.  There was a time when we had to make everything workable on 640x480, but now feel safe that approximately no one is running that resolution.

In the same way, should we bother worrying about 256 colors?  I think/hope not.  Windows Vista won't even go to 256, the minimum is 16-bit ("thousands of colors").  The 800x600 monitor is set to 16-bit, and looks pretty good.  The light-green column shading looks light gray and OK.

Overall, I think test FOG looks fine on an 800x600.  Reading FOG will require more work scrolling, but that's life on a screen of that resolution.  I have looked around the test FOG and don't see anything that's terminally ugly or that sticks the user in an unnavigable position.

Ned

[Brice Burrell]

  I thought from the beginning the welcome/show unread post text should be in its own area, let the logo have its own space. I like the pale green in the alternating colors. What I don't like is the "quote, modify and remove" icons, the colors seem out of place wit the rest of the color scheme. Also, I'm not liking the wider green border, I much preferred the pin stripe look. I'm fixated on the border and now its distracting.

[Ned]

Coming together nicely, Matthew.  My screen is 1280 X 1024.

A couple of suggestions - put the Welcome text and links in the right side of the banner back the way it was - with Show unread... and Show new... on seperate lines.  That text still crowds and overlaps the logo.  When it was on four lines instead of three, it worked better, IMHO.

Try the logo in a vertically centered position within the banner, or at least a bit higher.  It's close to the bottom now.

The logo and the Welcome text need to work together.  They seem to be fighting each other right now.

I like the light green shading.

I too would prefer Show unread and Show new on separate lines.  Both on one line encourages you to see them as simple text, not links.

The logo completely fills (vertically) the banner space on both my 800x600 and 1600x1200 monitors.  I literally don't see what David is reporting.

I don't understand "The logo and the Welcome text need to work together."  David, are they physically overlapping, or do you see them as aesthetically clashing, or what?  (BTW, "aesthetically" isn't dismissive, it's one of the major aspects of what Matthew's doing.)

Ned

[Matthew Schenker]

...What I don't like is the "quote, modify and remove" icons, the colors seem out of place wit the rest of the color scheme. Also, I'm not liking the wider green border, I much preferred the pin stripe look. I'm fixated on the border and now its distracting.

I'm looking into options for the "quote," "modify," and "remove" icons.  That might have to come into place later.  I thinned out the green border (back to 1px from 3).
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

I too would prefer Show unread and Show new on separate lines.  Both on one line encourages you to see them as simple text, not links.

The logo completely fills (vertically) the banner space on both my 800x600 and 1600x1200 monitors.  I literally don't see what David is reporting.

I don't understand "The logo and the Welcome text need to work together."  David, are they physically overlapping, or do you see them as aesthetically clashing, or what?  (BTW, "aesthetically" isn't dismissive, it's one of the major aspects of what Matthew's doing.)

Ned

I'll try to describe what I see in the banner.

The tool photo, an MFT at the moment, occupies the left portion of the banner, pretty much top to bottom.

The logo text reads "Festool Owners Group", and below that "discussions and multimedia...".  That logo text occupies the bottom center portion of the banner.  The "discussions and multimedia..." text is at the very bottom portion of the center banner area.  There is lots of space to move both lines of logo text up, maybe centering it vertically.  It looks off kilter to me, positioned at the bottom of the center area.

The Welcome and the three links text are in the right side of the banner area, and positioned at the top of the banner area.  The third line, which still contains two links, crowds the logo text, although no longer overlapping it.  Another thing to try with this portion of the banner would be to left (Edit: oops, I meant right) justify all of the lines, rather than centering them horizontally.  Right justifying these lines will move them visually further away from the logo text, and will allow the logo text to stand out more, IMHO.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   I like the green shading. It could be a  little more on my monitor, but it does show.

   I prefer the larger "Festool Owners Group" letters or something in between the two.

   I like the thicker border line, it helps keep the logo from looking like it is running off the top of the screen, somehow the tools just seem pushed up to the top.

   I think stacking up the "recent unread post" etc all on seperate lines works better.


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

    I agree with others that the icons don't look right. Just words would be better  OR

  Maybe the "quote", Modify", "remove" icons could be something Festool-  copy ring,  MFS or Router, CT.

Seth

[Overtime]

I also like the green shading, and the "pin striping" of the green lines.

And it seems that the "Festool Owners Group" font has shrunken so much so to accommodate the welcome text. They now compete for top billing. The Festool fonts should be larger and get the space it needs and deserves. Plus it just looked better.  The welcome text ( as important as it is ) comes second, and hopefully can be worked in somehow. Just my 2 cents.

The thick blue borders left and right of page ? Don't know what it is about it - color ,thickness, too heavy? etc - but it's a little distracting.

Thanks for all the work going into this - it is really looking good, first rate ! 

[Daviddubya]

...And it seems that the "Festool Owners Group" font has shrunken so much so to accommodate the welcome text. They now compete for top billing. The Festool fonts should be larger and get the space it needs and deserves. Plus it just looked better.  The welcome text ( as important as it is ) comes second, and hopefully can be worked in somehow...

I agree.  I think the font size of the words "Festool Owners Group" is part of the problem I was trying to describe above.  Perhaps the size of the photos can be reduced to make a bit more room for larger FOG text?

[fidelfs]

I normally don't read a post with so many reply's I get so confuse. I didn't make an exception to this so If this has been address before sorry.

I don't see the links in the new forum: "Show unread posts since last visit.", "Show new replies to your posts.".  I don't know if there will a new functionality to replace those but I don't see them in the new forum.

If you include those links could you also include them at the bottom of the page as well.  When I am reading several post and I want to read a different post I have to move to the top and click the links.

==== +++++  UPDATE +++++ ======

Let me take that back.  I found the links but they are hidden in the right top corner.  They are not ease to find and also they are black.  A different color/font would be great.  They change color when you hover the cursor over them, but you need to find them first 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I asked Andrew to re-design his logos so they are smaller.  I had thought that would be better.  However, it seems that his original, larger, version, works better.  I re-uploaded the larger ones to the test forum.

I also right-justified the "Welcome" text as David suggested.  In addition, I created a very thin, light-gray line around the "welcome" text, in order to make it stand out -- but not too much.

   I like the thicker border line, it helps keep the logo from looking like it is running off the top of the screen, somehow the tools just seem pushed up to the top.

I agree.  So I thickened to green line in the top of the forum, while leaving the line thinner in the left, right, and bottom.  See if that works better.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

...What I don't like is the "quote, modify and remove" icons, the colors seem out of place wit the rest of the color scheme.

    I agree with others that the icons don't look right. Just words would be better  OR

  Maybe the "quote", Modify", "remove" icons could be something Festool-  copy ring,  MFS or Router, CT.

Those icons are easy to change.  All I need to do is create 22x22 jpg images.  If anyone wants to submit suggestions for these icons, feel free!

Matthew

[Daviddubya]

Everyone,
I asked Andrew to re-design his logos so they are smaller.  I had thought that would be better.  However, it seems that his original, larger, version, works better.  I re-uploaded the larger ones to the test forum.

I also right-justified the "Welcome" text as David suggested.  In addition, I created a very thin, light-gray line around the "welcome" text, in order to make it stand out -- but not too much.

Matthew

Matthew - Each revision is a bit better.

I cannot see a line around the Welcome text.  It is invisible on my screen.

Once again I recommend placing Unread Posts... and New Replies... each on a seperate line, rather than combining them on one long line.  The right justification works well, IMHO.  With the right justification, the two links on seperate lines will be well away from the "Festool Owners Group" logo text, allowing the FOG name to stand out.

Thanks for your efforts.

[Dan Clark]

Matthew,

Overall, I like the new forum format a lot.   It's a significant improvement over the current format.   

I'd like to make one suggestion about the use of green - limit it's use to the logo and the "functional" parts of the forum.   I.e. things that do something - buttons, links that highlight on mouseover, icons that are active or indicate someone is online, etc.

IMO, bright green is a great color IF it is used in moderation as an accent.    By making borders and post backgrounds green, the green accents loose their impact.

Look at the Festool products.   Except for the bare metal parts there are only two main colors on the products - a very light gray-beige and a blueish-black. 

Everyone talks about the Festool "Green", but it is used only on the logo and the functional parts - switches, knobs, connectors, and latches.   IMO, the green color's impact comes from its limited use!   

I decided to try out my ideas...

This image is a screen shot of the test forum exactly the way it appears on my screen:


This image is a copy of the first image, except that the green border lines are changed to dark gray.   What is interesting (and surprising) to me is that the green band also looks like it changed color.  (The band color was NOT changed.)   


This image is a copy of the second image except that the green band was desaturated and the luminance increased.  I.e., it is actually a very light greenish gray.   


This image is the same as the third image, but the band color is less strong:


To my eyes, the third or maybe the fourth image is the best.   They are better because I think they are the most readable, easiest to navigate and have the most impact.   

In the third and fourth images notice that the wonderful (IMO) green elements in the header are now more prominent.  "FESTOOL OWNER'S GROUP" now pops out at you.   Your eyes are drawn to the controls in the Domino.   Notice that the green "Online" icon sticks out and other icons seem more visible.  And most importantly, the text content pops out. 

My personal preference is obviously the third image because it is most readable.   From a pure attractiveness perspective, I find the second image to be the most attractive with the greatest impact.   The fourth image is a middle ground between image 2 and 3.

Regards,

Dan.

[Ned]

Clear and reasoned presentation, Dan.

The third image, with the monitor set to 16-bit color, looks OK.

I like the third image, too.

Ned

[Daviddubya]

Ned's (Edit - oops - Dan's) screenshots made me realize that the text for the links in the right portion of the banner is even more of a problem on his size screen than it is on mine.  I can now see why the links won't fit well into the banner on seperate lines.  I don't have a specific recommendation, but I do think the links need to be in a position that does not interfere with "Festool Owners Group", IMHO of course.

[Ned]

Ned's screenshots made me realize that the text for the links in the right portion of the banner is even more of a problem on his size screen than it is on mine.  I can now see why the links won't fit well into the banner on seperate lines.  I don't have a specific recommendation, but I do think the links need to be in a position that does not interfere with "Festool Owners Group", IMHO of course.

I'm confused.  I (Ned) haven't posted any screenshots.  Most recently Dan (same letter count, different guy) did.  Yet the mention of screen size makes me wonder if something in David's post does have to do with something I did.  But I don't know what.

Ned

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

        I think I figured out why the logo and the whole page in general seems to be jammed up to the top of the screen.   The thin/ thick green line is not enough of a separator.  It looks/feels like the page is not at the top to me. I keep wanting to scroll to get to the top.  I think it is because it is not framed. If the Festool dark blue page frame went across the top as well as around the sides and bottom , I think that would do it.  Look at the current forum- the frame goes all the way around.

        Try going to the bottom of the page , and then back to the top. It looks like you are at the bottom but not at the top. Also if you are using windows try toggling F11 (full screen) it makes the effect show up even more.
 
        Would it be hard to put the green top line back to thin , and put the blue frame across the top, the same width as it is on the sides?

Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

     I see Dan's point about keeping the green to a minimum to maximize impact. And I like the idea of it being used in the way Festool does for functional items. But I prefer the green lines to grey, and the green shading to grey. I don't think that either are overdone.  To me those things are nice highlights , and the grey is just a little to dull when combined with the other grey stuff on the pages.
     As far as keeping the green in the  functional  vein goes. We could mentally consider the green lines to represent the guide rail strips.  And the green shading could be the FOG.  Also I can find two places on Festool equipment that the green is simply informational or just a company highlight as opposed to actually functional- One being the green stripe on the Systainer labels, the other the rings on the AS hoses. 


Seth
     

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

     Could the "unread posts", etc. simply be removed from the logo area and put somewhere else?  Like in the top grey navigation bar if they were abreviated or shortened?   The more I look at it they seem out of place in the logo field anyway.
     If something was neede to fill that right side area how about an actual logo. Like something that could be made into a members patch


Seth

[Brice Burrell]

Dan, I like the look of the green pin strips lines, however, your gray line do make the page easier read. What I don't like about the gray lines, they seem a bit too dull in color how about black instead?

Seth I think you are right about the top of the looking a little out of place and I like your idea of trying the blue border at the top.

[Daviddubya]

I'm confused.  I (Ned) haven't posted any screenshots.  Most recently Dan (same letter count, different guy) did.  Yet the mention of screen size makes me wonder if something in David's post does have to do with something I did.  But I don't know what.

Ned

Sorry, I meant Dan.  Your posts were right next to each another, and my memory is so short that I forgot who posted the screenshots.  Smile.

[Dan Clark]

One point about designing websites that I learned a long time ago (and just remembered about 10 minutes ago) is that all of this depends on your eyes and your monitor.   

Your perception of the green lines (or any brightly colored lines) depends on your monitor and your eyes.  That doesn't mean that my eyes and monitor are better.   It means that they are different!   

And that's a major problem when designing websites!  I have three monitors that I use at home - one on my laptop and two on my workstation.  On my laptop, the green lines are OK.  Not quite as good as dark gray or black, but pretty good.  On my workstation monitors, the lines are a bright, gaudy green - not quite offensive, but pretty close.   

So here's the snag...  If the FOG webpage is "brightened up" so that it looks nice and bright for one person on one monitor, it can look offensive and gaudy to someone else on a different monitor.  That's why a lot of big professional websites are fairly plain - the designers know that it's better to be perceived as plain by most than to be perceived as offensive by some.

Look at the default SMF template we have.   And take a look at two of the most prominent websites:
http://www.amazon.com/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Festool&btnG=Google+Search

Pretty boring aren't they?   As boring as they may be, they also don't offend people.  I'm 100% sure that this is intentional.

Now rove around the web and find some REALLY offensive websites.   I'm talkin' GAUDY colors.  Anyone want to take a bet the web page would look great on the author's monitor!?!

So we come back to the issue of line color.   On your monitor...  Are the green lines offensive enough to bother you?   Are the gray lines offensive enough to bother you?

I'll bet that, while they may not be their favorite, virtually no one would be bothered by the gray lines.  Maybe not great, but not bothersome either.   On the other hand, I'll bet that there are other people who are bothered by the green lines.

In other words, while we should focus on making the website look good to most people, we also need to ensure that website does NOT look bad to some people.  I'm not looking at a rating system from 0 to 10, I'm looking rating range of +10 to -10.   Goodness to zero to badness.

For example, using the current FOG website as a baseline with a score of "0"...

IMO, the new website would score +10 with the gray lines and -4 with the green lines.   That is how much those green lines bother me on my workstation monitors.   

So how much would gray lines bother you?  Would you score the new website a +10 with the green lines and a -4 with the gray lines?  Or would it take your score from +10 to +9?

The bottom line is that we don't see reality; we see one reality presented by our monitor.   From a looks standpoint, I think it's better to have everyone pretty satisfied with their monitor's reality than to have some extremely satisfied and some dissatisfied.   

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., website creation and coding isn't particularly difficult.  Website design is very difficult.  I applaud Matthew courage and strength of will in creating the FOG website!  (I've done some website development in the past.  I know what it's like.  That's why I don't do it no more! )

[Dan Clark]

Dan, I like the look of the green pin strips lines, however, your gray line do make the page easier read. What I don't like about the gray lines, they seem a bit too dull in color how about black instead?

Seth I think you are right about the top of the looking a little out of place and I like your idea of trying the blue border at the top.

Brice,

I'm not promoting gray or any other color.  Gray is fine with me.  Black is fine with me.   Dark, low luminance green would be fine with me.  I'm just promoting "not bright" and maximum readability.   

Regards,

Dan.

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
This is a really good discussion, and it helps me a lot!  I think Dan's comments about over-using the green are important, and I also understand Brice's and Seth's points about making the site brighter and more lively with the green.  Looking over all the elements, I believe there's a compromise here -- perhaps leaving the green "alternating bands" of the posts but toning down the grid lines.  I'll experiment and you can all continue commenting.

Seth's comment regarding the margin of the page is a good one.  When I first launched the test site, I actually had that drak bluish-black margin going all around the forum, including the top.  Then I took it away from the top.  But this makes me reconsider, so I'm going to put it back and, again, people can comment.

There is still an issue, I understand, with the placement of the "welcome text" in the header area.  I see what people are saying.  But my goal here is to get all the "intro" stuff neatly placed in the top region so we can get to the business of the forum.  In the "default" template we're using now, notice all the excessive layering of stuff before we get to the real meat of the forum.  I hate that, and it's one of the main things I'm trying to fix in the re-design.  My goal with the "welcome text" is to make it clear, not intrude on the header, and not take any extra forum space.  I'll keep working on it.

Check the forum again today to see the new changes.

I think we're getting real close to a launchable design.  And let me emphasize again that, even after the new deisign is launched, I can continue to tweak things.

Thanks everyone for getting involved!

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
While we're discussing various elements of the re-design, can someone out there create two little images for me?

Here are the details:
1. An "open" and a "shut" Systainer
2. GIF format
3. 15x15 pixels
4. Transparent background

Thanks!

Matthew

[Daviddubya]

...There is still an issue, I understand, with the placement of the "welcome text" in the header area.  I see what people are saying.  But my goal here is to get all the "intro" stuff neatly placed in the top region so we can get to the business of the forum.  In the "default" template we're using now, notice all the excessive layering of stuff before we get to the real meat of the forum.  I hate that, and it's one of the main things I'm trying to fix in the re-design.  My goal with the "welcome text" is to make it clear, not intrude on the header, and not take any extra forum space.  I'll keep working on it....
Matthew

Matthew,

Here's a recommendation on the banner area:

Make the photos of the tools smaller and keep them as far to the left as possible.
Move the "Festool Owners Group" and "discussions and mutlimedia..." text to the left and keep the FOG portion as large as possible.
Change the Welcome and link text to 4 lines and right justify it.

By making these changes, I suspect you can eliminate the overlap in the two text areas and accomplish your goals.

[Daviddubya]

Matthew,

Here are the Systainer gif's you wanted.  (Edit - corrected size to 15X15)

[Dan Clark]

Everyone,
This is a really good discussion, and it helps me a lot!  I think Dan's comments about over-using the green are important, and I also understand Brice's and Seth's points about making the site brighter and more lively with the green.  Looking over all the elements, I believe there's a compromise here -- perhaps leaving the green "alternating bands" of the posts but toning down the grid lines.  I'll experiment and you can all continue commenting.

Seth's comment regarding the margin of the page is a good one.  When I first launched the test site, I actually had that drak bluish-black margin going all around the forum, including the top.  Then I took it away from the top.  But this makes me reconsider, so I'm going to put it back and, again, people can comment.

There is still an issue, I understand, with the placement of the "welcome text" in the header area.  I see what people are saying.  But my goal here is to get all the "intro" stuff neatly placed in the top region so we can get to the business of the forum.  In the "default" template we're using now, notice all the excessive layering of stuff before we get to the real meat of the forum.  I hate that, and it's one of the main things I'm trying to fix in the re-design.  My goal with the "welcome text" is to make it clear, not intrude on the header, and not take any extra forum space.  I'll keep working on it.

Check the forum again today to see the new changes.

I think we're getting real close to a launchable design.  And let me emphasize again that, even after the new deisign is launched, I can continue to tweak things.

Thanks everyone for getting involved!

Matthew

Matthew,

In virtually all subject areas, we walk into them thinking we know very little.  After spending a massive amount of time studying and working in that area, we gain a little expertise.   That's when we realize that after all that work, we're still VERY LOW on the totem pole.   We just didn't understand the height of the totem pole when we started.

Art is one of my totem poles.   I studied art when I was a kid and spent a couple years in an art school in the late '50s.   In the late '80s, I studied water color with a woman named Kay Kandra: http://www.kaykandra.com/.  In a separate post, I'll attach a pic of one of her lesser works that hangs in my family room. (I really need to put it in a much better frame.)  If you think it's a simple painting, think about this - many of the crisp lines were done with ONE brush stroke.   I.e., one stroke of the watercolor brush to get it right the first time!  She was awesome.

Kay taught me a lot about the use of white space, and contrast and light.  Her favorite phrase was "Great use of white space!"   Her painting is example of that.   Most important is the limited use of strong colors.   That's what I love about it - it's the balance of the white space, and bland and strong colors.  They are in balance and focus.   

Your eye is drawn from place to place - as the artist intended.   You can't see the original that I have, but the colors are very pleasing to the eye.   And there is a certain "tension" between the warmer colors and cooler colors.  I can't explain it, but they "vibrate".

So this is where I get many of my ideas about focal points, color and balance, contrast and light.  It is also why I think the new FOG forum design is approaching the point of being true art!

While I thought all of the entries in the logo contest were excellent, when I looked at Andrew's my jaw dropped.   My mind sort of went blank and thought "Wow!".   Kind of like when I look at Kay's paintings.   IMO, Andrew's logo IS true art!   

Now, enough philosophy on to the substantive...  Here are three suggestions:

1) If possible you might want to make the header a frame with three sections.  The frame would have the tool ICON as a fixed size, the "Festool Owners Group" section a fixed size, and the "Welcome <name>" a variable % size.  That might help solve the problem.

2) Consider changing the "Welcome <name>" background back to white.  I think the gray background is distracting and detracts from the logo area.

3) While I prefer gray or black, there seems to be a preference for color lines.   I think the new lines colors are much better but still a bit distracting, so I decided to take a closer look.  After some juggling, I was able able to get a clear screen capture of the new lines, the colors in the Festool Router and Andrew's Festool Logo.

After taking several samples of the Andrews Festool logo, I found the hue is 69 (warm green), the luminance is 100 (moderate brightness) and the saturation is 163 (medium saturated).   For the lines, the hue is 70 (warm green), the luminance is 103 (medium bright), but the saturation is 240 (completely saturated).  I think the key is saturation.

Suggestion: Change the Hue, Saturation, and Luminance to closely match the logo.  I.e., create a line with:
- Hue = 69
- Luminance = 100 
- Saturation = 163

Besides fading into background a bit, the key benefit is that the lines would tie in with the logo.   Attached are zoomed-in and normal screen shots of the lines in their current state and modified to match the logo.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. one advantage of studying art is the knowledge of how far down the totem pole I reside.   I can appreciate it, but I suck at doing it.  Maybe that's wisdom.  I'm not sure. 

----

Original:

New:

Original Zoomed:

New Zoomed:

[Dan Clark]

Sorry for breaking this up, but I couldn't add the Kay Kandra image in the first post.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

    I really like the blue frame going all the way around including the top. Now it looks like the page has a top.

    The grey shaded box in the logo banner doesn't work for me. I still think this stuff doesn't belong there. Do we really need the messages info there anyway. How about just combining it with the "My Messages"  button like it is now with the flashing envelope?   That would reduce the troublesome section to "Unread posts since last visit", and New replies to your posts" and I think those items would just fit on the right side of  that grey bar that doesn't seem to be fully used.   I think that would give it a more organized look, putting all the business in one place.


Seth

[Dan Clark]

I agree with Seth about the stuff in the top right corner.  But I'd go one step farther.   With the exception of the notification that I'm logged in, I don't care about any of that stuff.   It's just excess information that I never use and it detracts from the clean look of the new header. 

I find it easier and faster to check the icons on the left to see if any sections have new posts.  Then check to see the threads with new posts to see if I'm interested in the topics.   

If it's feasible in the new forum format, I'd like to see a disappearing section like the current forum.  People who want to use the feature can use it and those who don't can hide it. 

Regards,

Dan.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   I think if those were hidable options that would be fine. In fact I think the more on/off options the better. That way people can weed out functions they don't use.  Also even if they are optional, I think that those wanting to use them will want them in a good location. People use the features in different ways- EX.   I never use  "Show new replies to your posts"  or  the list of recent posts at the bottom of the home page. But I use "Unread posts since last visit"  every time I am on.


Seth

[Brice Burrell]

  At this point we are so close it may be time to do the change over. We seem to be at the point of diminishing returns. We are going in circles here, that is a sign that we are nowhere close or have spent too much time on the same issues. I think it is time to live with the new design for a few days and see what parts of it we (meaning all of the members) can do without. Set a reasonable target for the release and do it on that day.

  
  Sorry, this comes from my constantly having a deadline to meet, you can ignore the above.  

[colinw]

Hi guys,
          I know I am a new member and have not been involved in this design work, but  I have been following the thread closely and would like to add a comment , I agree with Brice sometimes you just have to take the plunge, put the new design up, then work out the kinks ......just like a dry fit before glue up, otherwise you will still be tuning it and altering things in 6 months time.... I used to build and design databases for large coperations or at least used to be a big link in the chain and this was an issue all of the time, just when is the right time. IMHO I think you are there now. BTW Matthew wonderful work and I applaud your efforts I understand how much work a project like this ( the whole Forum thing). Thank you . I don't want to ruffle any feathers just my opinion.....


Colin

[Dan Clark]

Colin,

Everyone if free to express their opinion.   Especially when your arguments are reasonable.   

I'd like to see a of couple minor changes, but I think you and Brice are right - it's about time to ship the puppy!   We can make additional changes going forward.

Regards,

Dan.

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
I like your ideas about toning down the brightness of the grid lines.  However, I generated that color using The GIMP.  I get different numbers from the ones you posted.

Here are the relevant details:
HTML Color: #00ae00
Hue: 120
Saturation: 100
Value: 68
Red: 0
Green: 174
Blue: 0

In the GIMP, the maximum values for hue and saturation are 100.  I'm guessing there's a difference here in references.  Can you help me reconcile my numbers with what you posted?  What software are you using to detect these numbers?

Here's what I did: I toned down the saturation to a value of 70 (I dropped it by 30%, which corresponds to the relative drop you suggested).  This generates the HTML color #34ae34.  In the test forum, I changed all #00ae00 references to #34ae34.  This includes the grid lines, hovers, highlighting, and a few other small elements.  What do you think?

To Seth and Dan: Regarding the "welcome" text, I agree with those of you who say there's not much use to that information!  I belong to several forums, I must admit I never use the "unread posts..." or "show replies..." functions.  I am one of those people who just likes to dive into the boards.  To me, the "F" indicators (which Dan created for us a while back) do the job of letting me know where the new posts are.  So I would not have a problem getting rid of the "welcome" text.  However, I know that a number of members do use these functions.  So, for the moment, I don't think I should disable them.

To Colin: as Dan said, you should always feel free in this forum to offer your opinions, especially when your intent is to help.  We welcome that!

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Here are the Systainer gif's you wanted.  (Edit - corrected size to 15X15)

Thanks David!  I just added transparency to the images and brought them into the test forum.  Do you see them.  What do you think?
I like them, but I'm thinking they should be even larger, maybe like 20x20?  I actually expanded your originals, but they could be clearer...
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

Here are the Systainer gif's you wanted.  (Edit - corrected size to 15X15)

Thanks David!  I just added transparency to the images and brought them into the test forum.  Do you see them.  What do you think?
I like them, but I'm thinking they should be even larger, maybe like 20x20?  I actually expanded your originals, but they could be clearer...
Matthew

Matthew,

Yes, I see one of the images.  You are right - it is not clear.

Here are the images in 20X20.  Expanding small images into larger ones will result in fuzzy images.  If you want a different size, I can create it from the original photo.

[Overtime]

Wow, that is cool. It is tiny but what a great idea / feature.

And the revised thinner blue border trim all the way around the page is real nice also. Much better. But that's just my opinion and what I see on my screen.

Looking much more refined now and near perfection 

[Dan Clark]

Dan,
I like your ideas about toning down the brightness of the grid lines.  However, I generated that color using The GIMP.  I get different numbers from the ones you posted.

Here are the relevant details:
HTML Color: #00ae00
Hue: 120
Saturation: 100
Value: 68
Red: 0
Green: 174
Blue: 0

In the GIMP, the maximum values for hue and saturation are 100.  I'm guessing there's a difference here in references.  Can you help me reconcile my numbers with what you posted?  What software are you using to detect these numbers?

Here's what I did: I toned down the saturation to a value of 70 (I dropped it by 30%, which corresponds to the relative drop you suggested).  This generates the HTML color #34ae34.  In the test forum, I changed all #00ae00 references to #34ae34.  This includes the grid lines, hovers, highlighting, and a few other small elements.  What do you think?
...

Matthew,

Initially, the green lines looked better but then I noticed that the green lines didn't look quite the same.  After grabbing the window with GIMP and zooming to 1600%, the color picker showed some of the green grid lines were different colors.

It looks like the interior grid lines and the line UNDER the "Home" toolbar has a saturation of "70".  However, the outside border and the line OVER the "Home" toolbar still has a saturation of "100".

At least on my monitor, the less saturated lines fade into the background and blend nicely.  The fully saturated lines have a "glow" to them - they stand out and look very odd.   I think they should all be the same with a saturation of "70".

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. I realized that we might be talking apples and oranges, so I installed GIMP.   It's a nice tool.  The color management seems much better than PhotoShop Elements V6.0 and HyperSnap 6.

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
Good eye!!  Yes, mistakenly I had two green references: #33cc00 and #00ae00.  I did a search and replace in the style sheet for #00ae00, and adjusted all those to the lower saturation level, but a couple of #33cc00 references remained!  This was a good opportunity for me to replace all the green references in the entire forum page and assign the same HTML color code of #34ae34.

By the way, the line you refer to as "over the home toolbar" is actually referenced in the part of the code that defines the bottom of the header area!  These things can get a bit confusing.

Anyway, I believe I have now updated all the green lines to the calmer (lower saturation) tone.  But please feel free to check and report back on anything you see that is out of line (no pun intended).

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Here are the images in 20X20.  Expanding small images into larger ones will result in fuzzy images.  If you want a different size, I can create it from the original photo.

Thanks Dave!  I appreciate the contribution.  I just uploaded these new icons so everyone can take another look.  Perhaps they can go even larger?
By the way, these same icons are used in various other places in the forum, like the stats listings and the search pages.  Essentially, anywhere someone can expand or collapse a category of something.
Matthew

[Dan Clark]

Dan,
Good eye!!  Yes, mistakenly I had two green references: #33cc00 and #00ae00.  I did a search and replace in the style sheet for #00ae00, and adjusted all those to the lower saturation level, but a couple of #33cc00 references remained!  This was a good opportunity for me to replace all the green references in the entire forum page and assign the same HTML color code of #34ae34.

By the way, the line you refer to as "over the home toolbar" is actually referenced in the part of the code that defines the bottom of the header area!  These things can get a bit confusing.

Anyway, I believe I have now updated all the green lines to the calmer (lower saturation) tone.  But please feel free to check and report back on anything you see that is out of line (no pun intended).

Matthew

Matthew,

I took a quick peek.  It looks like you have everything lined up!  (Oooh.  Ouch.  Horrible pun! )

Dan.

[Dan Clark]

Here are the images in 20X20.  Expanding small images into larger ones will result in fuzzy images.  If you want a different size, I can create it from the original photo.

Thanks Dave!  I appreciate the contribution.  I just uploaded these new icons so everyone can take another look.  Perhaps they can go even larger?
By the way, these same icons are used in various other places in the forum, like the stats listings and the search pages.  Essentially, anywhere someone can expand or collapse a category of something.
Matthew

I look a quick peek at the new icons.   They look good.  Very nice work, Dave!

Dan.

[Daviddubya]

...Perhaps they can go even larger?...Matthew

How about 25X25?  If you want another size, please holler.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   The thin green lines still look good to me  after the coloring changes. 
 
    The Systainer collapsing is cool.

Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

How about 25X25?  If you want another size, please holler.

Thanks again David.  I put up the 25x25 version in the test forum.
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

How about 25X25?  If you want another size, please holler.

Thanks again David.  I put up the 25x25 version in the test forum.
Matthew

That looks better.  You can clearly see what it is now.  And the image is crisp.  Want any other size???

[Matthew Schenker]

David,
No, I think it's good now.  Thanks for providing material for the new forum design!
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
All right, it seems everything is ready...the structure of the new design is in place, and everyone has had ample opportunity to comment.  Now it's time to launch it!
So, I'm going to get the new design up and running and do some other needed maintenance on the forum.

The forum upgrade and maintenance will begin Friday morning at 4:00 AM.  The forum will be shut down from 4:00 AM to about 4:30 AM while I do the maintenance.

I'll post a note to the whole community about this momentarily.

Thanks everyone for your terrific help in this effort.  I'm looking forward to the new design.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

One more note:
For those of you who want to switch to the new theme right now, before it becomes official for the entire forum, follow these steps:
1. Click on "My Profile" from the main menu.
2. Click on "Look and Layout Preferences" in the profile screen.
3. Click "change" where you see, "Current Theme: Default (change)."
4. In the theme selection page, find "SilentWave," then click on "use this theme."

Matthew

[Fred West]

Matthew, as always you have outdone yourself. The amount of work that has gone into this is staggering and I just want to thank you in particular as well as all the others that contributed. Fred

[Matthew Schenker]

Fred,
Thanks for your reply.  As you can see, the new design is now up and running.
Matthew

[Fred West]

Matthew, I changed over to the new format about noon yesterday and relly like it. Thank you again. Fred

[Brice Burrell]

  Matthew, links on the new site seem to be the same color as the regular text, at first glance you don't know they are links. I preferred the different colored link text, is it possible to do this? And I know you were working on having a Festool region show up for each member location, will we see that in the future? 

BTW, great work!

[Chris N]

Fantastic job Matthew.  I second Bruce's comments.
Chris

[Forrest Anderson]

Matthew

Thank you very much for all the effort you have put into the re-design. I find it nice and clear, and the logo looks very professional.

  Matthew, links on the new site seem to be the same color as the regular text, at first glance you don't know they are links. I preferred the different colored link text, is it possible to do this?

I'm also with Brice on this one. Having links the same colour as normal text makes it very difficult to spot that there is a link embedded in the text. In fact, somewhere in this paragraph there is a link to a picture of the profile of the CMS side-rails which show the V-groove (referred to in another thread). Since the link is not shown in a different colour, it's difficult to find it. In fact, if I hadn't mentioned the link was there, hardly anyone would have known the link even existed.

Forrest

[Matthew Schenker]

I agree about the link color.  However, remember that whatever color I specify for links shows up for all links, not just those in the message post box.  I'm going to look for ways to have the links behave differently inside the post box and get back to this later today.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I just updated the link color to gray, with green/underlined hovers.  Just to test it, I put a link right here in the middle of a post.  On my monitor, it stands out enough without being too jarring.  Can others please report on what you're seeing?

For comparison, over in the test forum I changed the links to a subdued blue.  That way, people can jump back and forth between "test" and "production" forums to see which one works best visually.

I'm trying to find a color that makes links stand out, without making things ugly.

Matthew

[Rob_B]

L/G against that background is a slightly obscure..

least on my screen it is 

[Daviddubya]

Everyone,
I just updated the link color to gray, with green/underlined hovers.  Just to test it, I put a link right here in the middle of a post.  On my monitor, it stands out enough without being too jarring.  Can others please report on what you're seeing?
...Matthew

Not much contrast between gray and black.  The link is not obvious.  I had to look twice to see it.

The blue color in the test forum is just a bit easier to see, at least on my screen with my eyes.

Have you considered a slight difference in the font, like making links italics in blue???

[Matthew Schenker]

David,
OK, I changed it to the blue color used in the test forum.  I think it shows up well, without being too loud.  I don't want to italicize it, because then we'll have italics showing up all over the forum -- everywhere there's a link.

So, does the blue work?

Matthew

[Brice Burrell]

I like the blue, thanks for taking care of this so quickly.

[Daviddubya]

Blue is better.  I think that will do the trick.

[Forrest Anderson]

David,
OK, I changed it to the blue color used in the test forum.  I think it shows up well, without being too loud.  I don't want to italicize it, because then we'll have italics showing up all over the forum -- everywhere there's a link.

So, does the blue work?

Matthew

Err, I hate to say it, but that blue is a bit too subtle for my eyes, particularly when the background is tinted (the background to every second post in a thread it tinted). I think if I was creating a link in a post, I might manually emphasize it by underlining the text to make sure people realised that there was a link. Whilst I realise that you want something that is tasteful and doesn't take over the place, I find that the blue you've used is a bit too discreet. In fact, I'd prefer black underlined text rather than a discreet colour, but would agree that if every link in the whole forum was underlined, it would look messy. It's only the links within a post that I'm keen to emphasize.

I like the roll-over green, if that helps... 

Sorry!

Forrest

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

       The blue is OK. It would be better if they stood out a little more. But seems like the best compromise so far. How about a more intense blue- maybe try the frame color blue.  Might be too much but it couldn't hurt to give it a try.

Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

Hey Everyone,
I figured out how to add a section of code so the links appear in their own format in the posting window!!!  So now I can define a link style for posts that does not affect all the other parts of the forum!

As an example, if I add a link here, it stands out without uglifying the rest of the forum.

I set it to be underlined, slate blue, bold.

Opinions?

Matthew

[Ned]

I'm happy the links are distinct in text.

Ned

[Forrest Anderson]

I figured out how to add a section of code so the links appear in their own format in the posting window!!!  So now I can define a link style for posts that does not affect all the other parts of the forum!

As an example, if I add a link here, it stands out without uglifying the rest of the forum.

I set it to be underlined, slate blue, bold.

Opinions?

I love it!  Now there should be no problems spotting a link in amongst lots of text.

Many thanks for working on this - it's much appreciated.

Regards

Forrest

[Brice Burrell]

I like it too, thanks.

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   Thumbs up on the links.

Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I'm glad we have this discussion, as it has allowed me to make all kinds of tweaks to the code and given me the confidence that what I'm doing works for everyone.  Now that I am seeing how well this process runs, I have to say I can't imagine managing a forum any other way!

As we go forward, everyone should feel free to comment on various components of the forum.  The cumulative effect of both large and small changes gives us a unique space for our discussions.

Matthew

[Brice Burrell]

Matthew,
I noticed today when I wanted to attach a photo to a PM there was no "additional options" buttom. Did I miss it or is it gone?

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

     Could the "unread posts", etc. simply be removed from the logo area and put somewhere else?  Like in the top grey navigation bar if they were abreviated or shortened?   The more I look at it they seem out of place in the logo field anyway.
     If something was needed to fill that right side area how about an actual logo. Like something that could be made into a members patch


Seth

Hi,

       I just re-read this post I made and realised that the words "actual logo" coould be read as meaning I had a problem with the new FOG header/banner/logo.  I don't- a better word in place of that would be emblem or symbol.


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

         This is in the post I just made above but here it is again anyway.  I still think the "You have  x messages 0 are new" could be elimenated because it pretty much duplicates (except for the quantity) what occurs with "MY MESSAGES" in the navigation bar. A little envelope flashes if there is a new message, and if I really care how many old ones there are I can just click to go there.  And that  "UNREAD POSTS since last visit"  "NEW REPLIES to your posts" should be moved to the gray navigation bar.    It would clean it up and put all that function stuff in one place.   

Seth

[greg mann]

I tend to agree with Seth on this one. It seems odd to be reaching up into to header for, what is for me, the most used function on the screen.

[Matthew Schenker]

I noticed today when I wanted to attach a photo to a PM there was no "additional options" buttom. Did I miss it or is it gone?

I don't think the "additional options" was ever available with PMs.  To attach photos, just use the "insert image" button from the posting options.  But now that you mention it, I'll have to see how to remove the inline image pull-down from PMs.
Matthew

[Daviddubya]

I tend to agree with Seth on this one....

Me three.  As an alternative, eliminate the messages information and move the Unread Posts... and New Replies... links, each on their own line, to the white area just above << previous - next >>.  That seems to place all of the navigation links together.

[greg mann]

Actually, I would like an "unread posts" button at the bottom of the page. This is usually where I am when I want to go back to unread messages anyway.

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I agree with those of you who think that the messages notice at the top of the page is redundant with the "MY MESSAGES" link in the main menu.  Also, the "unread posts" option is rather obscure.

Here's what I'm thinking: I'll remove the "You have... messages" note from the header.  Then I'll look into moving the "unread posts" and "new replies" line to the menu bar.

I'll do all this in the test forum first, so we can see what it looks like.

Actually, I would like an "unread posts" button at the bottom of the page. This is usually where I am when I want to go back to unread messages anyway.

There are a lot of possibilities here.  But keep in mind, this is not like editing a document in a word processor.  To put functions in different places in the forum takes manipulation of lines of code.  I'm getting better at this, but it still takes me time to find the right lines for things like this.  Let me take care of the above issues first, then we can discuss other placements of the information.

Stay tuned!

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
Just an update: I removed the PM information from the header zone, since it was redundant.  I also edited the PM menu item to read "Message Center," which is more explanatory.

Still working on moving the text "UNREAD POSTS since last visit /  NEW REPLIES to your posts" to the menu bar.

Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
Responding to member requests, I've been making some more basic improvements, which are on display over in the test forum.

Here's a run-down:
- Removed "UNREAD POSTS" and "NEW REPLIES" functions from the header area
- Set the time and date to display beneath your user name in the header area
- Created items in the main menu for the "UNREAD POSTS" and "NEW REPLIES" functions
- Removed the "HELP" and "CALENDAR" features from the main menu (members report very little or no use for these).  They will be made available in other ways.

Before I implement these changes in the main forum, please hop over to the test forum, take a look, and comment.

Here are the details for the test forum:
Address: http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/TestForum
Username: test
Password: test

Thanks,
Matthew

[Ned]

- Removed "UNREAD POSTS" and "NEW REPLIES" functions from the header area
- Set the time and date to display beneath your user name in the header area
- Created items in the main menu for the "UNREAD POSTS" and "NEW REPLIES" functions

Looks good.

- Removed the "HELP" and "CALENDAR" features from the main menu (members report very little or no use for these).  They will be made available in other ways.

Those people most likely to use Help are newbies, possibly not even members yet.  If they aren't members, they are unable to comment in favor of keeping Help right up front, easy to find.

Please restore Help to its former location, or at least in that lineup of buttons.

Ned

[Michael Kellough]

Why are "Recent Posts" missing from the bottom of the existing forum?

[Matthew Schenker]

Those people most likely to use Help are newbies, possibly not even members yet.  If they aren't members, they are unable to comment in favor of keeping Help right up front, easy to find.

Please restore Help to its former location, or at least in that lineup of buttons.

If they aren't members, they don't have access to help.

The question, for me, is how useful is that documentation, and is it worth occupying a prime spot on the forum menu?  I've reviewed the documentation, and my conclusion is that members can get much better help through the "Tech Talk" area, where they can ask specific questions.  Based on the numbers from the Help poll, it seems that over 80% of members either don't use this system or didn't even know it was there.  Of course, I don't want to get rid of the help documentation.  I just want to have it accessible through "Tech Talk."

Matthew

[Daviddubya]

I think the changes are good - cleaner presentation.  Thanks, Matthew.

[SRSemenza]

Why are "Recent Posts" missing from the bottom of the existing forum?

Hi,

  They exist on my screen.  Perhaps they are collapsed on yours.   There is a little systainer icon on the right side of the grey bar that would be the header for that section. Click it to add or remove the bottom section of the page.
    I am wondering why it is on the right instead of the left like the rest of the little systainers?


Seth

[SRSemenza]

Matthew ,
     I think the most recent changes look good in the test forum. I say bring em' on over.  It doesn't really matter to me , but there is a devider line missing in the main menu bar.

Seth

[Michael Kellough]

Why are "Recent Posts" missing from the bottom of the existing forum?

Hi,

  They exist on my screen.  Perhaps they are collapsed on yours.   There is a little systainer icon on the right side of the grey bar that would be the header for that section. Click it to add or remove the bottom section of the page.
    I am wondering why it is on the right instead of the left like the rest of the little systainers?

Seth

Thanks Seth, I've got them back following your suggestion. I really missed that list of new messages.
I never even noticed that Systainer icon and must have clicked it absent mindedly.

[Matthew Schenker]

Matthew ,
     I think the most recent changes look good in the test forum. I say bring em' on over.  It doesn't really matter to me , but there is a devider line missing in the main menu bar.

I'll bring the changes over soon.  Check the menu bar again.  I added a divider.
Matthew

[Matthew Schenker]

Another technical note (for those of you still following this discussion): I just updated the appearance of links in signatures so they look the same as links in posts and PMs.
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

     How about someone coming up with something to replace those standard message icons?  You know like that silly blue pencil.  Maybe a Festool clamp in place of the sticky thumb tack?



Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

Hi,

     How about someone coming up with something to replace those standard message icons?  You know like that silly blue pencil.  Maybe a Festool clamp in place of the sticky thumb tack?



Seth

The "silly blue pencil" is also known as the "standard" message icon.  Although it is pretty basic, I installed a number of Festool-themed message icons below the standard one, showing 12 different Festool images (see this discussion).  I also updated the "exclamation" and "question" message icons.

But there's always room for more!  If someone has a new concept for the "standard" icon, or any of the others, let me know.

If anyone is interested in designing some new message icons, here are the technical details:
- 24x24 pixels
- GIF format

While we're at it, on a related subject, I've been interested in creating an expanded smiley set (smileys are those animated faces you can add to your posts).  It would be fun to  have original, Festool-themed smileys.  I posted about it back in December (click here) but no one responded, so I dropped the subject.  I'll raise it again now!  Creating new smileys is more involved than message icons, since they need to be animated, but the payoff is they get used more often.

It's possible the message icons could form a base for some sort of smileys.  Maybe there could be an animation of a TS 55 sliding on a guide rail, a Kapex chopping, a Domino plunging, and more.

Here are the technical details"
- 15x15 pixels (they could be bigger horizontally)
- Animated GIF format (not absolutely necessary, but animation is how we think of smileys)

Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

  Umm, yes , right , the standard message icon.   I just think the color and style doesn't fit the new forum design.  The tool icons are great , but I think a new standard one could be a nice improvement also.  Even if they are not Festool oriented, just a a more fitting color/style.  Maybe a mechanical pencil writing on graph paper?
     I like the idea of adding more smilies even if they are not Festool based. I am on another forum that has about thirty to choose from. They add a nice little spice to the posts.


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

Seth,
Well, feel free to contribute a new "standard" icon.  Or if anyone else has ideas...
On the smileys, I am asking others to contribute them.  Personally, I'm just terrible at creating animated GIFs!
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Seth,
Well, feel free to contribute a new "standard" icon.  Or if anyone else has ideas...
On the smileys, I am asking others to contribute them.  Personally, I'm just terrible at creating animated GIFs!
Matthew

Hi,

  I'd love to  but I don't know how to do all the graphic stuff.

Seth

[SRSemenza]

Hi,


    So what happened to the alternating pale green shading of posts?


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

    So what happened to the alternating pale green shading of posts?

Hmmm...you don't see alternating shades?  I changed the code to make every other post have a kind of off-green background.
Is anyone else not seeing this?
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

    So what happened to the alternating pale green shading of posts?

Hmmm...you don't see alternating shades?  I changed the code to make every other post have a kind of off-green background.
Is anyone else not seeing this?
Matthew

Hi,

   Yes, I was one who promoted the idea. I used too see it , but it does not show now.


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

   Yes, I was one who promoted the idea. I used too see it , but it does not show now.

That's weird.  All this time, I was assuming it was working.
Are you saying that all the posts have exactly the same background?
Could you post a screen shot so I can try to figure this out?
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

   Yes, I was one who promoted the idea. I used too see it , but it does not show now.

That's weird.  All this time, I was assuming it was working.
Are you saying that all the posts have exactly the same background?
Could you post a screen shot so I can try to figure this out?
Matthew

Hi,

   Right ,the posts all look like a white background to me.   If it matters the "stickied" topics do show in green background.  How do I post a screen shot?


Seth

[Dan Clark]

Seth,

Are you seeing this on the same monitor and same computer? 

I found that the appearance changes from monitor to monitor and computer to computer.  Right now, I'm working with two monitors on one computer.   When I drag the browser from one to the other, the appearance changes somewhat.  The bands are very light on my left monitor and darker on the right monitor.

Regards,

Dan.

[Matthew Schenker]

   Right ,the posts all look like a white background to me.   If it matters the "stickied" topics do show in green background.  How do I post a screen shot?

The stickies have another, more noticeable, color, which is why they are probably showing up better for you.

Just to make sure I know what you mean, are you talking about the background of the posts, or the topic listings?  Either way, it's the same issue (except by column instead of row), but I want to be clear (no pun intended).

Matthew

[Michael Kellough]

   Yes, I was one who promoted the idea. I used too see it , but it does not show now.

That's weird.  All this time, I was assuming it was working.
Are you saying that all the posts have exactly the same background?
Could you post a screen shot so I can try to figure this out?
Matthew

They do alternate in Safari/Mac. It is subtle.

[woodshopdemos]

   Right ,the posts all look like a white background to me.   If it matters the "stickied" topics do show in green background.  How do I post a screen shot?

The stickies have another, more noticeable, color, which is why they are probably showing up better for you.

Just to make sure I know what you mean, are you talking about the background of the posts, or the topic listings?  Either way, it's the same issue (except by column instead of row), but I want to be clear (no pun intended).

Matthew

Matthew, I do get the alternating background block colors but the green is so subtle that it easily is lost as a background difference. In printer terms, maybe a 10% instead of the normal 0

[johne]

For those that do not see the alternating green and white it may be a monitor calibration problem (Monitor being set to bright)

You can get a decent idea about your monitor settings here

http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/htm/others/monitorsetup.htm

and here

http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/htm/others/monitorsetup_black.htm

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

      OK the green background shading on every other post and column is still there. I did some monitor adjusting and it magically reappeared.  My monitor must have done an auto adjust when I wasn't looking.


Seth

[Matthew Schenker]

      OK the green background shading on every other post and column is still there. I did some monitor adjusting and it magically reappeared.  My monitor must have done an auto adjust when I wasn't looking.

So the forum looks OK now?
Matthew

[SRSemenza]

Hi,

   Yup, all set.


Seth