Member-Only Access

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I'm happy to open this up, and even to admit the whole idea of members-only approach was a mistake.  Then again, I do need to address the underlying reasons behind this discussion.  As always, this forum benefits from healthy debate.
Matthew

[Michael Kellough]

Good Morning,
Timmy C pretty much nailed the central issues in his last post!

Matthew, I read that post and didn't get it.
Could you summarize what the issue is?
Inquiring minds want to know.

[Timmy C]

Good Morning,
Timmy C pretty much nailed the central issues in his last post!

Matthew, I read that post and didn't get it.
Could you summarize what the issue is?
Inquiring minds want to know.

I wonder if that is because I don't know where I am at with regards to my orientation "about" Che?   

[Michael Kellough]

Good Morning,
Timmy C pretty much nailed the central issues in his last post!

Matthew, I read that post and didn't get it.
Could you summarize what the issue is?
Inquiring minds want to know.

I wonder if that is because I don't know where I am at with regards to my orientation "about" Che?   

Timmy, Che is dead, get over it 

Seriously, I didn't get your post becuase it was long, full of unfamiliar technical details, and you made observations from a couple of different perspectives. So, I really don't know what Matthews concerns are. I know he wants to convert guest/lurkers into members but to what purpose? Why make drastic changes in the accessability of the FOG is cost is not a serious issue?

Matthew's response to the universal dissaproval of the members only policy included this paragraph,

"I need to boost membership for various reasons.  This might sound odd, but I know that a lot of sales-related outfits are using this forum.  I have no problem with that, but I'd like it better if they were contributors, or at least searchable members!  You might ask, what's the big deal if sales outfits use the forum but don't sign up?  Hmm...what's the big deal?  Very good question..."

It is a good question and I wish he would answer it. He implies that the answer is in your post but I don't get it. Get it? 

[Matthew Schenker]

Michael,
I'm going to try and answer you.  But I warn you, the answer is really difficult to pin down.  I'm going to wander to explain this.

First, let me say clearly that this does not have to do with money.  We have addressed financial matters through the donation discussion.

OK, now let me try to get at this...
This forum has always been, for me, a creation, an experiment, a way to answer some questions: how many other Festool users are out there, how do they use their tools, do they have things in common, is there a method of work represented by this kind of tool system?  Remember, this forum was a shot in the dark almost five years ago (Yahoo days).  It was a response to what I saw as weird hostility towards Festool tool owners in other forums, even hostility towards a certain attitude about woodworking.  I felt pretty strongly about wanting to make sense of all this back five years ago, but I had no clue it would end up being what it is today!

In the intervening years, those same questions have persisted, but they have grown more interesting to me, with even more implications.  Today, I not only have the same goals I had back then, but I also have all kinds of messages from individual members expressing their opinions and ideas, I have thousands of forum posts, and I have numbers that reveal trends and possibilities...and I have this excitement of pushing it to the next level.  That next level is activity -- measurable activity, visible activity.  What else can I make of this forum?  Remember, as big as the forum has become, it's never changed from its simple roots as an extension of my woodworking hobby.  That's at the root of the open, community-driven structure of this forum.  You can't get interesting or useful answers if you control the answers, right?  But another angle is this: I believe people who make use of our hard work and our thoughts and projects ought to contribute somehow.

Two recent concepts sprang form this: the tool contests, and members-only visits.

The contest is kind of my way of creating more visual examples of the things that got me interested in this forum in the first place.  I openly admit, I'm only a hobby woodworker.  I'm nowhere near as good as most woodworkers in this forum.  There are professionals in this forum whose work deserves more visibility.  I've spoken personally with a few pros on this forum who talk about their work, and how they've been hurt by the recent downturn in the economy (for example) and that gets me thinking about the original purpose of this forum as a display of a certain way of doing woodworking.  But it's not just pros.  There are hobby woodworkers here who do amazing work.  I see the contest as a way to push members to show what they've got.  It's already pushed me to work harder.  I really think the contest will achieve its purpose.

The members-only thing relates to my longstanding need to get more measurable representation (see our discussions on international polling, for example).  I absoloutely admit, the members-only way to do it was a misstep -- but maybe not a total loss.  I still believe there might be a way to thread this needle.  But believge me, I've dropped the idea of members-only!

The reason I liked Timmy C's post is because he was kind of getting at the difficulty of pulling all the trends together for success.  He was talking about business, and I am talking about a forum, but they are analogous.  To the person running the business, or the forum, there seems to be a clear path, and you know you want to try certain things.  But when you try to explain it, the whole thing kind of collapses.

Matthew

[Timmy C]

Just playin' Mike, sorry if it was taken the wrong way.


I have not spoken with Matthew directly, however, these were my main points summed up:

1. There are numerous "sales outfits" that utilize the FOG for marketing purposes.  These SO's are not registered users therefore do not have to play by the same rules.  Perhaps these SO's are competition to Festool?  Perhaps they are exploiting the FOG for their own gain?  Personally, I do not like this.  I cannot speak for all the reputable dealers that have their names show up in green, ie.  Bob Marino, Anthony, Force, Bill in Seattle, FJ, et. al.   It sounds like Matthew is all over the tracking, but cannot match IP (internet identification) with the individual posting or lurking.  These people should play by the the same rules that the dealers currently registered are playing by...sales related pitches should be in the Sales Zone.

2.  Gathering information is crucial to pitching the site to Festool Branches world wide.  Example: For me, e-commerce is viable as a business model.  However, more often than not, Lending Institutions do not recognize e-commerce as a viable approach to doing business.  I simply can't go to a bank with an idea; I must have concrete numbers to substantiate my position.  I have this many visitors, I have this many registered accounts, My average sale is "X", I convert this many visitors to a sale, etc.  If Matthew wants to take the FOG to other Festool Branches, he must be able to substantiate his claim that the site is worthy of "whatever his goal is." 

REAL NUMBERS AS TO FORUM USAGE IS CRUCIAL.  THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT IS TO REGISTER MEMBERS. 

Furthermore, the ability to see those who are using the FOG form commercial endeavors is crucial as well.

Sean had some great stuff in the post that followed, and there are some wonderful ideas with regards to SEO and conversion.  Conversions being where we take a lurker and convert them to membership (this is only one example of conversion.  Another possible conversion may be "Posting a Reply" to a marked thread?

It is my opinion that $$$ is not the issue.  It is my opinion that growing the FOG, and moving to higher echelon of existence; International exposure is the goal here.

EDIT :  Sorry about the late posting there.  Came back from a phone call, and looky there, there was Matthew.

[Michael Kellough]

Michael,
I'm going to try and answer you.  But I warn you, the answer is really difficult to pin down.  I'm going to wander to explain this.

...But when you try to explain it, the whole things kind of collapses.

Matthew

I kind of get it...
but not really.

I understand the basics of a web based forum but you are so far ahead of me...

It seems like the difference between residential electrical work, which I thoroughly understand,
and electronics, which is completely over my head.

But, I look forward to what you come up with.

[Matthew Schenker]

I kind of get it...
but not really.

I understand the basics of a web based forum but you are so far ahead of me...

It seems like the difference between residential electrical work, which I thoroughly understand,
and electronics, which is completely over my head. ...

Nah, more like the difference between Guiness and water after a tough night bowling.

The thing is, getting into this kind of detail is a bit messy, as it is in any community of smart, opinionated, energetic people.  I've always tried to keep this forum really open, but I have not always opened the mush for everyone to see like this.  In this case, I made a mistake and it required an explanation.  It's not the norm, I promise!

Matthew

[minimal]

Hm, as a registered lurker here, who *loves* the forum (I read it sometimes every day, otherwise
every week), I have to ask this:

How will guests know how valuable it is to join if they can't read the forum?

A simple list of the benefits will not do it. At least for me, I had to be drawn into a discussion,
and the only way to do that is to be able to read more than a few threads, top to bottom.

It took me a few weeks of lurking before I registered ( I think it probably was when I first *had*
to see someone's homebuilt MFT).

What I'm saying here is that in order to increase membership, see what makes people cross over
from guest to member. A poll, perhaps:

Why did you sign up instead of remain a guest?
     a: wanted to view image reserved for members
     b: wanted to participate in discussion thread
     c: wanted to ask question of an experienced member
     d: wanted to ask question about upcoming tool purchase
     e: wanted to show my festool-related work and get comments
     f: am a dealer, wanted to expand references and help people use the tools
     g: wanted to join in bickering for sense of comraderie
     h: couldn't read anything, just wanted to see what forum was about


For me it was either A or B, I forget. But there's no way I would have joined "on faith", there are
just too many sites and (sadly) in this day & age the ones that make you register first are
almost always the ones that aren't so good. That would have been a total loss for me, as
I've learned so much here, but I wouldn't have know what i was missing, and that
gets to the crux: the person who doesn't register has to know what they are missing, otherwise
there will be no reason to register. And they can't know what they are missing if they can't see
glimpses of the forum.

[Per Swenson]

Fester is that you?

[Matthew Schenker]

Per,
Who you talkin' about?  I don't see no festerer!
Matthew

[Per Swenson]

Musta been my imagination

[Matthew Schenker]

Hm, as a registered lurker here, who *loves* the forum (I read it sometimes every day, otherwise
every week), I have to ask this:

How will guests know how valuable it is to join if they can't read the forum?

A simple list of the benefits will not do it. At least for me, I had to be drawn into a discussion,
and the only way to do that is to be able to read more than a few threads, top to bottom.

It took me a few weeks of lurking before I registered ( I think it probably was when I first *had*
to see someone's homebuilt MFT).

What I'm saying here is that in order to increase membership, see what makes people cross over
from guest to member. A poll, perhaps:

Why did you sign up instead of remain a guest?
     a: wanted to view image reserved for members
     b: wanted to participate in discussion thread
     c: wanted to ask question of an experienced member
     d: wanted to ask question about upcoming tool purchase
     e: wanted to show my festool-related work and get comments
     f: am a dealer, wanted to expand references and help people use the tools
     g: wanted to join in bickering for sense of comraderie
     h: couldn't read anything, just wanted to see what forum was about


For me it was either A or B, I forget. But there's no way I would have joined "on faith", there are
just too many sites and (sadly) in this day & age the ones that make you register first are
almost always the ones that aren't so good. That would have been a total loss for me, as
I've learned so much here, but I wouldn't have know what i was missing, and that
gets to the crux: the person who doesn't register has to know what they are missing, otherwise
there will be no reason to register. And they can't know what they are missing if they can't see
glimpses of the forum.

Good points, but I've already admitted my mistake on this and have decided not to do the members-only route.  In a strange way, I'm glad I made this mistake, because it reinforces for me the value of opening these kinds of discussions to the community!  We're all capable of bad decisions, but this shows me the strength of the forum community in catching any of those mistakes and changing course!
Matthew

[minimal]

Oof, sorry to add on so late and after you'd already made a decision to return to the prior config! Anyway,
love the site, wouldn't even characterize it as a "mistake" so none to admit, besides you can't be expected to
be perfect all the time.

And this is the only alias I lurk under, if Per is implying otherwise; my ideas can't the *that* unoriginal!

[Matthew Schenker]

And this is the only alias I lurk under, if Per is implying otherwise; my ideas can't the *that* unoriginal!

Per was referring to something else my friend!  Don't worry about it.
Matthew

[pmkierst]

I'm not sure I understand the unregistered vendor thing; they can always register with bogus names and you'll be no further ahead (unless I misunderstand). In any case misappropriation of information freely available is a natural consequence of the medium and not really worth worrying about.

But, on the system metrics thing, there is a wide variety of software (including google metrics) that can really help you mine your visitor data without trolling through the data yourself; it is an whole industry to itself now and can do some amazing stuff. In addition, polling (and there are companies to help with that as well) can really help you round out your demographic information and judge your user base. I'm not talking in-forum polls, but the sort which come up and say would you like to take a poll now.

Just a couple of thoughts to help you achieve your original goals.

edit: mind->mine

[Matthew Schenker]

pmkierst,
I'll have to take a look at the metrics tools you're mentioning.  I'd be curious to see what can be done here without interrupting the usual flow in the forum.
If anyone has more information on this, please post about it!
Matthew

[greg mann]

Matthew,

Is there a way to create a welcome message that shows up on the home page before anyone actually logs in? Once someone is registered and logs in it could disappear as it would no longer be relevant. In my case, I tend to stay logged in all the time so I would only see it when I visit from a different computer and it sure wouldn't bother me on those occasions. A message that makes someone feel appreciated just for showing interest in the forum and then extolls the virtues of becoming a member might be effective. I do not recall seeing anything quite like that elsewhere. It would explain that membership is free (but donations are welcome), pictures can be seen, posting can be done, questions can be answered, etc. Until someone registers this would always be seen; a proverbial welcome mat if done right. I suppose you could even joke that if they registered and logged on they would not need to see this message anymore. To be clear, I am not saying this should be the entire homepage, just a message under the first toolbar.

[Matthew Schenker]

Greg,
An interesting idea.
And what a coincidence.  It just happens to be a possibility with the (experimental) design we're playing with, as described in this discussion.
Matthew

[pmkierst]

A place to start might be the Wikipedia entry for Web Analytics.

As is typical, google offers a good, free solution that you might want to experiment with, Google analytics.

I tend to use the terms metrics, I'm some kinda old fool.

[neilc]

Matthew -

If securing registered members is a priority, why don't you put a landing page on the home page?

I logged out and went to the anonymous home page which is the same as for an authenticated visitor.  Seems like you could get more registrations if you would summarize on that page the benefits of membership, highlight 3-4 of the interesting threads or projects, highlight some of the new Festool tools to learn about inside, and encourage registration with two pieces of data - email / username and password. 

Summarize key stats, benefits to registration, etc.  Allow two simple alternatives:  registration or log-in on that page.  Or include a link to browse the forums with no images. 

As one example, check out www.blogger.com for a friendly welcome, the opportunity for a tour, etc.  Benefits and process are pretty clear.

Just a thought.

neil

[Matthew Schenker]

neil,
What you describe is possible, though (and I swear the two discussions are completely coincidental) the new features we're discussing in this discussion make it more feasible.
I could easily use the new feature to create a center block with an encouraging message to join.
Matthew

PS: By the way, your avatar keeps making me want to swat at my screen!

[Matthew Schenker]

A place to start might be the Wikipedia entry for Web Analytics.

As is typical, google offers a good, free solution that you might want to experiment with, Google analytics.

I tend to use the terms metrics, I'm some kinda old fool.

I just took a look at Google Analytics.  The problem is, to use it I have to uninstall the tracking devices I am already using, which means major headaches on the database end of things.  The existing tools (metrics) may not be as good as Google's, but they are all in place and functioning properly.  Also, Google Analytics wants me to install their tracking script on every page of this site!  I might try this on the Test Forum first, to see how it goes.
Matthew

[Dan Lyke]

So this morning I was writing a comment on my blog. I switched browsers yesterday, and, especially since I read the FOG with an RSS reader, I hadn't logged in with the new one. I went and looked at Eiji's sapele doors which I wanted to link to to illustrate a point I was making, and couldn't see the pictures he was mentioning.

Of course I logged in and the pictures loaded, but I didn't link, because that would have required everyone who wanted to see what I was talking about to create a new account on this site. It raised the cost of using the FOG illustratively beyond the value that I thought this brought to the readers. The PageRank for that site has fallen a bit in the past few months, but that was a PR5 link that the FOG didn't get.

Not saying that it isn't the right decision to make, FOG still comes up first when I was trying to find any other sites that Eiji may have posted his pictures on, and I know I've jumped through hoops on various other sites to create accounts that I've used exactly once in order to read an article that I was interested in, but it's a data point.

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
As I mentioned earlier, nothing has changed in access rights.  This discussion started as an announcement, but it soon became a debate, and I was convinced beyond any doubt to leave access rights as they always were.

Photos have always been accessible only to members.

Matthew

[Dan Lyke]

Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification! I guess I've always just been logged in.

Huh, wonder how many people I've confused then? 

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
Well, some photos will appear for visitors, some will not.
If the photo is an attachment, it will not appear.  If the photo is a link, it will.
But again, this has always been the case.
Matthew

[graphex]

I just took a look at Google Analytics.  The problem is, to use it I have to uninstall the tracking devices I am already using, which means major headaches on the database end of things.  The existing tools (metrics) may not be as good as Google's, but they are all in place and functioning properly.  Also, Google Analytics wants me to install their tracking script on every page of this site!  I might try this on the Test Forum first, to see how it goes.
Matthew

I'm not sure why you'd have to uninstall your other tracking devices. I've used google analytics in conjunction with other statistical engines without problem. Their tracking script is lightweight and usually just goes in your footer control. In my tests, it often performed faster than my webserver I was testing, so the HTML would load, and while the images were on the way the google analytics script would load. The use of google charts makes google analytics pretty slick, if you like looking at metrics from a bunch of angles.

[Matthew Schenker]

I'm not sure why you'd have to uninstall your other tracking devices. I've used google analytics in conjunction with other statistical engines without problem. Their tracking script is lightweight and usually just goes in your footer control. In my tests, it often performed faster than my webserver I was testing, so the HTML would load, and while the images were on the way the google analytics script would load. The use of google charts makes google analytics pretty slick, if you like looking at metrics from a bunch of angles.

It's possible I misunderstood the instructions.  But when I got to the point where it offers the actual script snippets, there is a note about Urchin (which is one of the data-gathering tools I already have installed here).

Here's the actual note from Google Analytics:

Note: We recommend that you do not include both tracking code snippets together on any given page. Doing so might generate inaccurate report data. You can, however, migrate select pages of your site to the new tracking code while the legacy code remains on others.

Since the snippets are meant either for Urchin, or for Google Analytics, it seems they are asking me to uninstall Urchin.

Matthew

[graphex]

Right... google analytics actually sprung from Urchin after google bought them, so I could see how they might be incompatible. I've used GA in conjunction with log trackers like SmarterStats, but essentially GA is a 'newer version' of urchin so they probably think it is more like an upgrade.

I think in your case you may have to decide between the two. I personally am not much into stats tools, but I have been impressed with what google's got after they integrated some of the 'google charts' parts. Looking at stats visually is the best, and there seems to be the most 'community support' surrounding google analytics, but I'm well aware how attached people become to 'legacy data' like you might have in Urchin

I'd rather see UTF-8 forums than good metrics anyway, but then again I'm a user, not an admin