Author Topic: New membership numbers on the FOG  (Read 7909 times)

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Offline Edward A Reno III

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New membership numbers on the FOG
« on: December 26, 2016, 04:21 PM »
I was looking at the forum stats the other day, and saw that there has been a precipitous decline in new members joining the FOG, from 16,000+ last year to around 4000 -- a number that hasn't been that low since 2012.  Number of new topics and posts are also down (though not proportional to the membership rolls) about 30% from the past two years, though the total page views is up, as they have been every year since the FOG's inception.

Now obviously in a forum like this it should be quality rather than quantity, and for every 50 people that sign up there's maybe 1 who actually starts contributing regularly (just guestimated that number btw).  But I was still surprised to see those numbers. 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline bobfog

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2016, 04:35 PM »
My guess would be that the level of innovation from Festool is declining, the year on year prices are increasing, and all against a backdrop of other manufacturers closing the quality gap.

In short, maybe Festool isn't on the same pedestal it once was.

I'd also speculate that issues with the Carvex blade guide and Kapex motor issues largely going unresponded to has reduced advocacy and had a knock on effect. On a similar note, the refusal to expand their 10.8v range and to make a decent 18v impact as well as recip saw may also be forcing people to other brands.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 04:45 PM by bobfog »

Online Peter Halle

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2016, 05:30 PM »
Let's get the elephant out of the cage.  Running a forum dedicated to a manufacturer's products requires participation and nurturing and that participation level is not what it once was. 

Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline TylerC

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2016, 05:45 PM »
Although I don't have the numbers in front of me now -- I'm doing Christmas with my family today -- most metrics around the FOG ebb and flow seasonally, but they're still inclining. There are a number of possible reasons, but I think that part of it is that -- let's be honest -- this kind of web forum is past its peak in popularity. It shouldn't be that surprising that the growth of a traditional web forum has slowed while Festool's social media following/engagement is  growing in huge numbers.

There are certainly other legit arguments to be made, and I highly doubt that there's any one simple explanation.

In 2017 we're  planning to update the FOG to a new platform that should be more modern and mobile/tablet-friendly, which will hopefully will attract more people.

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2016, 05:50 PM »
I believe that all three of the first respondents so far have presented valid reasons; with Peter presenting the most telling.

Sure there is the promise of a FOG software upgrade, but it is the lack any significant participation by Festool employees, particularly when issues arise that needs to change. It is always better to be proactive rather than intermitatly reactive.

Tyler discusses the rise of social media. Fair comment, untill you look at some of the Festool Facebook Pages. The Australian FB page is pathetic. No real information, just pretty pictures inviting 'likes' from the 'fan boys'.  [eek]
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 05:55 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline TylerC

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2016, 05:59 PM »
... the lack any significant participation by Festool employees, particularly when issues arise that needs to change.

I'm curious how much you're considering the Kapex in this?

Offline TylerC

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2016, 06:04 PM »
Tyler discusses the rise of social media. Fair comment, untill you look at some of the Festool Facebook Pages. The Australian FB page is pathetic. No real information, just pretty pictures inviting 'likes' from the 'fan boys'.  [eek]

Festool doesn't have the same official presence in Australia as in other countries, so their Facebook page does get the same love.

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2016, 06:11 PM »
Sure Tyler the Kapex was in my mind when I wrote that sentence, but so were the times in other topics and threads when members, including myself have been attempting to provide advice to others, or have asked our own questions, and have tagged a Festool employee and received no response.

This is not a direct criticism of you or Phil. It is obvious that Festool management has not provided appropriate significance or time for FOG monitoring within the job descriptions of two valued employees. It almost feels at times like you and Phil are responding to the FOG voluntarily. Certainly Tyler, you are today.
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2016, 06:26 PM »
Tyler discusses . .

Festool doesn't have the same official presence in Australia as in other countries . .

Ain't that the truth!  [smile]
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline TylerC

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2016, 06:36 PM »
I'm not surprised that "involvement from Festool" is a recurring theme in this. A lot of this is fair, and I have some thoughts on this and would like more feedback from you all on this. However, my family is getting mad at me for my continued interruptions to the game of Scattegories that we have going. I'll give a more thoughtful response tomorrow morning.

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2016, 06:58 PM »
Tyler discusses . .

Festool doesn't have the same official presence in Australia as in other countries . .

Ain't that the truth!  [smile]

...Festool in Australia is via an import partner and has possibly a different approach to social media. Social media also varies country to country and may not be the best use of resources.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2016, 06:59 PM »
My guess would be that the level of innovation from Festool is declining, the year on year prices are increasing, and all against a backdrop of other manufacturers closing the quality gap.

In short, maybe Festool isn't on the same pedestal it once was.

I'd also speculate that issues with the Carvex blade guide and Kapex motor issues largely going unresponded to has reduced advocacy and had a knock on effect. On a similar note, the refusal to expand their 10.8v range and to make a decent 18v impact as well as recip saw may also be forcing people to other brands.

....innovation is constant in Festool - watch this space
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline bobfog

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2016, 07:01 PM »
I'm not surprised that "involvement from Festool" is a recurring theme in this. A lot of this is fair, and I have some thoughts on this and would like more feedback from you all on this. However, my family is getting mad at me for my continued interruptions to the game of Scattegories that we have going. I'll give a more thoughtful response tomorrow morning.

My meandering thoughts:

1) We need more interaction and content from Festool employees, globally. More showcases of work from different jurisdictions.

2) We need more "sneak previews" of new tools and other products. Nothing so far in advance that it will jeopardise the commercial requirements, but something a few days before public release, give us something to make us feel that as forum members we've got a little more insider info than people who don't participate on the forum. 

3) Be more receptive to criticism and complaints - I guess this would be as a whole for the brand not just the forum, at the risk of flogging a dead horse the Kapex complaints should have been responded to and a new improved motor design implemented and remedial upgrades to older versions carried out before insulting us by offering a new Kapex 60. Yes this would have cost Festool millions of dollars, pounds, euros, etc. But that's the rod they've made for their own back by marketing themselves as the gold standard of tools and charging accordingly for their products.

4) Let us talk about politics, guns, religion, etc. Sure this would increase the burden on moderators/staff but it's what creates a forum atmosphere, and again this increased workload would be part of the investment into the forum. Would you go to your friends' shop/garage and not talk about pressing current affairs whilst also talking tools or having a cold one? A successful forum needs to be a community with free speech, not just seen as a place for the technical discussion of whatever brand/industry the forum name might represent.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 07:04 PM by bobfog »

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2016, 07:08 PM »
Sure Tyler the Kapex was in my mind when I wrote that sentence, but so were the times in other topics and threads when members, including myself have been attempting to provide advice to others, or have asked our own questions, and have tagged a Festool employee and received no response.

This is not a direct criticism of you or Phil. It is obvious that Festool management has not provided appropriate significance or time for FOG monitoring within the job descriptions of two valued employees. It almost feels at times like you and Phil are responding to the FOG voluntarily. Certainly Tyler, you are today.

Hi
 Most of my posts are out of hours and it is not directly in my job description. However, as an employee of Festool and also trade I enjoy the forum as if some help can be offered on a product then the main purpose of the forum is maintained - exchange of information to help others. Part of the brand is to aid the best use of the products by an end user
rg
Phil
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Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2016, 07:11 PM »
I'm not surprised that "involvement from Festool" is a recurring theme in this. A lot of this is fair, and I have some thoughts on this and would like more feedback from you all on this. However, my family is getting mad at me for my continued interruptions to the game of Scattegories that we have going. I'll give a more thoughtful response tomorrow morning.

...and I am going back to a classic film - The National Lampoons Christmas Vacation..... [wink] and a beer, have a good one all  [wink]
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline justaguy

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2016, 07:11 PM »
IMHO #4 is the last thing that we need ...

[/quote]

4) Let us talk about politics, guns, religion, etc. Sure this would increase the burden on moderators/staff but it's what creates a forum atmosphere, and again this increased workload would be part of the investment into the forum. Would you go to your friends' shop/garage and not talk about pressing current affairs whilst also talking tools or having a cold one? A successful forum needs to be a community with free speech, not just seen as a place for the technical discussion of whatever brand/industry the forum name might represent.
[/quote]

Offline tony_sheehan

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2016, 07:14 PM »
"4) Let us talk about politics, guns, religion, etc."

Then it'll be bye bye from me (not that it'll be a great loss to the FOG as I'm not a great contributor )

Offline bobfog

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2016, 07:23 PM »
Quote
author=justaguy link=topic=49637.msg489966#msg489966 date=1482797514]
IMHO #4 is the last thing that we need ...


4) Let us talk about politics, guns, religion, etc. Sure this would increase the burden on moderators/staff but it's what creates a forum atmosphere, and again this increased workload would be part of the investment into the forum. Would you go to your friends' shop/garage and not talk about pressing current affairs whilst also talking tools or having a cold one? A successful forum needs to be a community with free speech, not just seen as a place for the technical discussion of whatever brand/industry the forum name might represent.


But why so?

Is this not a meeting place for adults? Would you not talk about such current affairs if you were with other like-minded people, face-to-face?

It seems to me that there is a disconnect between real life and this forum. Sure I like talking tools as much as the next guy, but if my friends did nothing but talk about tools and completely avoided contentious topics like it was Sunday morning in church, I'd tire of them very quickly.

Provided it's kept broadly civil, wouldn't having the ability to discuss all manner of "off topic" subject matter contribute to the overall participation of the forum, and in turn have a knock-on effect with overall contribution with greater numbers?

Some of the other forums I frequent have this balance right and they flourish, the ones that are too focussed on tech talk are the ones that die.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 07:26 PM by bobfog »

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2016, 08:03 PM »
Quote
author=justaguy link=topic=49637.msg489966#msg489966 date=1482797514]
IMHO #4 is the last thing that we need ...


4) Let us talk about politics, guns, religion, etc. Sure this would increase the burden on moderators/staff but it's what creates a forum atmosphere, and again this increased workload would be part of the investment into the forum. Would you go to your friends' shop/garage and not talk about pressing current affairs whilst also talking tools or having a cold one? A successful forum needs to be a community with free speech, not just seen as a place for the technical discussion of whatever brand/industry the forum name might represent.


But why so?

Is this not a meeting place for adults? Would you not talk about such current affairs if you were with other like-minded people, face-to-face?

It seems to me that there is a disconnect between real life and this forum. Sure I like talking tools as much as the next guy, but if my friends did nothing but talk about tools and completely avoided contentious topics like it was Sunday morning in church, I'd tire of them very quickly.

Provided it's kept broadly civil, wouldn't having the ability to discuss all manner of "off topic" subject matter contribute to the overall participation of the forum, and in turn have a knock-on effect with overall contribution with greater numbers?

Some of the other forums I frequent have this balance right and they flourish, the ones that are too focussed on tech talk are the ones that die.

From my perspective there are times when I just want to avoid discussing social issues and enjoy being in an atmosphere where it does not come up. Not that I don't have strong opinions and convictions, I just don't want to express them here nor have others expressing at me. The slope can be too slippery.

Perhaps it's my safe place...  [2cents]

RMW
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Offline amt

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2016, 08:21 PM »
Do #4 and expect your membership to be stuck at 1/2 what it should be.  #4 is probably the worst thing you could do for an online forum like this.

Offline justaguy

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2016, 08:27 PM »
The current state of politics and associated discussions in the US is such that many cannot participate without demonizing and degrading those with opposing views.

As an owners group or a community, I would rather we focus on our common interests and what brings us together rather than introducing subjects that may divide us.

When I want to discuss politics I'll do so in a political forum.

Online Wooden Skye

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2016, 08:28 PM »
Discussing politics and other social issues can get out of hand quickly and rather not have in this forum.

I do agree that there should be some higher level of management involved when need be.  Tyler does his best to provide the information, but sometimes doesn't have all the info to properly answer topics or questions raised, because he wasn't provided, so at those times someone up the festool ladder should participate.
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline DrD

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2016, 08:55 PM »
I joined a few years back to learn, specifically how to use the Festool tools; which ones would be of benefit to me, and which ones would not.  Back then we had some very positive and informative posts from any number of people who do not post much any more - I'll hasten to add there are great posts currently, but not by the wider number of posters which existed a couple of years ago.

Additionally, since this is a FESTOOL site, the input from and reaction by Festool is abysmal; some little, some not so little.  Little things like a Splinterguard which works on the TS75 at normal cutting depths when working with ply; little things like a pigtail for non-Plugit corded tools (specifically, the RAS 115, PS2, EHL 65, OF2200); big things like the truth about the Kapex issue; big things like prices, especially in light of the Deutsch mark/Euro vs the $USA, and so many others.

And, and air of divisiveness wherein the post(s) and reply(s) become(s) an attack of some type, which is never constructive seems to have become much more prevalent in spite of the ban on controversial issues. 

I would hope for more information pointing out the features, advantages, benefits of Festool, and how to, by using Festool, work faster, easier smarter.  I would hope the literal cornucopia of informative videos in German and other languages could be translated to English (either the King's  or Southern) and shared on this site.

This is still a good site, but it seems to me to have fallen far, far short of its potential.
Dr.D

Offline TylerC

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2016, 09:22 PM »
I would hope for more information pointing out the features, advantages, benefits of Festool, and how to, by using Festool, work faster, easier smarter.

Depending on how you envision the execution of this, I disagree on this one. We/I can do a better job of answer questions. However, I  think the content should be driven by users, and this shouldn't become just a place of us to publish promotional/sales material.

That said, the North American team has plans to increase our amount of content -- videos, tutorials, etc. -- in 2017. Repurposing some German-language videos will likely be part of that.

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2016, 09:36 PM »
I'm not surprised . . . .

...and I am going back to a classic film - The National Lampoons Christmas Vacation..... [wink] and a beer, have a good one all  [wink]
rg
Phil

@Phil Beckley  Film or reality?
If reality, it might be safer here on the FOG!  [big grin]   [blink]



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@bobfog

I agree that perhaps the FOG requires a little more 'spirit' but certainly not around the topics you suggest.  [eek]
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 09:39 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Cheese

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2016, 09:52 PM »
Sorry Bob...I'm not a fan of number 4 either, and it's not because I don't have strong opinions in those areas and it's certainly not because I dislike firearms, because that's what started me machining metals...the precision and fit of the mating parts in firearms.

However, when discussing these issues in person, you're able to be aware of body language, facial expressions and tenor of voice, which then means you have the ability to back off or the other person has the ability to back off which ultimately leads to a civilized conversation.

With the web...not so much, these conversational nuances seldom make it thru the fog of the Internet and the "conversation" can rapidly escalate into a brawl. We've already seen it with some of the Kapex threads where people, united in their universal appreciation of the brand name tool, can almost come to fisticuffs over the tool because of a very small difference in opinion. 

Think how that same discussion would play out if the conversationalists were widely divergent in their opinion.   

I agree, a little more free reign would be nice, but I do think the mods have done a good job on allowing people to be heard without having to put a boot on their throat.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 10:06 PM by Cheese »

Offline Danimalx23

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2016, 10:39 PM »
Evening everyone, Happy Holidays!

I just got a new RO 125 FEQ for Christmas and a CT48 to go with it. I signed up on the forums looking for some advice on how to control her a bit, as she bucks around something fierce. Coming from a DeWalt with no issues other than melting the hook and loop pads, I was feeling quite noobish.

I've been a forum user for many years, only new to FOG.  I've noticed a few things that maybe someone would agree with, having an "outsiders" perspective.  My favorite forum that's on the line, would be the Dedicated Theater Build section of AVS Forums.  Over there you have people following some threads for multiple years and excited to come back daily to check for updates. One thing I've seen there that I haven't noticed here, is the abundance of project photos, and personal stories. They have quite a bit of side chatter, revolving around home theaters, but not always completely on point.  I can understand how quickly a thread can derail if people become too passionate about hot button issues such as politics or religion, but there's only so much you can read about the "break in" period that some sanders apparently benefit from, before you go back to google and other message boards.

Admittedly I haven't seen much of the forum outside of the support area, but what I have read has been civil and helpful, just lacking that hook to keep someone coming back after that initial question has been answered.  Looking forward to figuring out my new sander and getting back to making sawdust.  o7

-Dan

Offline JBird

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2016, 01:12 AM »
I have felt for a while that the internet "golden age" of Festool has passed. I was not basing this on forum participation but on user generated content like Youtube videos and fan sites. Just off the top of my head:

1. Paul-Marcell at HalfInchShy no longer generating Festool videos
2. Wood Whisperer no longer using Festool
3. Bryce Burrell not generating content lately
4. Eric from The Popular Shop seems to be  losing Festool enthusiasm and moving to Bosch
5. Dave Reinhold slowing production of content
6. Braden Stadlman no longer producing content

The only prolific creator of Festool content that I am aware of right now is Peter at New Brit Workshop and he seems to be decreasing the proportion of his content dedicated to Festool. Naturally, any individual creator can tire of what they are doing and want to pursue other interests. But taken in the aggregate, and in the absence of new content producers, it seems like a profound change.

However, I would not extrapolate any of this to the health of Festool USA. They appear to be doing very well.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:31 AM by JBird »

Offline Kevin D.

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2016, 01:55 AM »
I don't post near as frequent as I used to, BUT i still have it in my homepage group when I open my browser.  Allow #4 and I would most likely remove it.  I've left other good forums that have done similar or simply lost control of the reigns.
Kapex, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Hat, Festool T-Shirt (2), Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Roseland

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2016, 02:22 AM »
I have felt for a while that the internet "golden age" of Festool has passed. I was not basing this on forum participation but on user generated content like Youtube videos and fan sites. Just off the top of my head:

1. Paul-Marcell at HalfInchShy no longer generating Festool videos
2. Wood whisper no longer using Festool
3. Bryce Burrell not generating content lately
4. Eric from The Popular Shop seems to be  losing Festool enthusiasm and moving to Bosch
5. Dave Reinhold slowing production of content
6. Braden Stadlman no longer producing content

The only prolific creator of Festool content that I am aware of right now is Peter at New Brit Workshop and he seems to be decreasing the proportion of his content dedicated to Festool. Naturally, any individual creator can tire of what they are doing and want to pursue other interests. But taken in the aggregate, and in the absence of new content producers, it seems like a profound change.

However, I would not extrapolate any of this to the health of Festool USA. They appear to be doing very well.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Offline SMJoinery

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2016, 04:08 AM »
Hello all.
I haven't posted in a long time but I still pop in once in a while looking for a great thread. Did so this morning and spotted this and wanted to comment.
Some of the above comments are valid but some cause and effect must also be borne by some members.
I cannot comment recently but several months past some comments on several threads and posts were derogatory to the contributor and I know of several members who will not return to the site having been on the receiving end of these posts.
Personally I was not, however seeing these posts continuing to develop into a slanging match or degrading into character assassination is enough to put some completely off. This may explain some of the reduction in new members joining as all posts are visible to members / non members alike.
I love the FOG and value greatly the memberships experience. I have learned a great deal from members here and continue to do so.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Scott

Offline TylerC

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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2016, 08:37 AM »
I have felt for a while that the internet "golden age" of Festool has passed. I was not basing this on forum participation but on user generated content like Youtube videos and fan sites. Just off the top of my head:

1. Paul-Marcell at HalfInchShy no longer generating Festool videos
2. Wood Whisperer no longer using Festool
3. Bryce Burrell not generating content lately
4. Eric from The Popular Shop seems to be  losing Festool enthusiasm and moving to Bosch
5. Dave Reinhold slowing production of content
6. Braden Stadlman no longer producing content

The only prolific creator of Festool content that I am aware of right now is Peter at New Brit Workshop and he seems to be decreasing the proportion of his content dedicated to Festool. Naturally, any individual creator can tire of what they are doing and want to pursue other interests. But taken in the aggregate, and in the absence of new content producers, it seems like a profound change.

However, I would not extrapolate any of this to the health of Festool USA. They appear to be doing very well.

This is an interesting point, but I’d counter it by pointing to content creators like Kiefer Limeback (Toolaholic), Paul Sprague (Toolpig), Drywall Nation, Toolify, David Stanton, A Concord Carpenter, Canadian Woodworks and others. Not all of this is video content, but they’re all doing interesting things.

None of these guys is 100% Festool, but I personally prefer it that way. I appreciate that we’re getting more content from people who use tools from a variety of manufacturers and can’t be accused of “drinking the green Kool-Aid”.

I don’t see a drop in user-generated content. I think it’s just coming from a different people — and possibly getting less content from more people.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 368
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2016, 08:52 AM »
I agree with what Cheese said about internet vs face to face discussions. Some topics get out of hand very fast. If you want to see a small sample of how bad it can get, try the discussion forums on Craigs List, which are only moderately moderated.




Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 784
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2016, 09:01 AM »
Ok I yield.

Maybe, judging by the responses, politics and contentious current affairs would not be the best for this forum.

I don't think the concept is wrong, as it works fine on other forums, but maybe the average blue collar demographic of a powertool forum's user base isn't the right one compared with the type of people who frequent, for example; high-end HiFi forums or photography groups, etc.

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 152
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2016, 09:34 AM »

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

You know, I'm having trouble coming up with a response to this that would allow me to retain my forum status here.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4022
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2016, 09:53 AM »
One can only talk about festool so much.  Plus people get busy with other stuff in their lives.

I am barely on any forums now, between my new shop, work, machinery sales, trying to get custody of my kids, and all the new things going on in my life, forums are at the end of the list.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 699
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2016, 10:11 AM »
Average Festool user is here to learn about Festool products and techniques typically but not exclusively related to woodworking, not political discussion. We have lost a lot of good contributors because of these discussions and one would only know that from long term viewing. I also feel that we have lost many potential members because of these discussions. Keep politics, religion, gun debates, etc. where they belong, not on a woodworking tool forum.

Festool in my humble opinion has done a great job in allowing open discussions, especially on problems with their products, much more open than any of us thought when Daniel handed over the reins of his experiment. Not bad for a corporation run forum and I don't really know of another quite like it.

There have been many good contributions made to the forum that are no longer visible for some reasons unknown to me. Many members that have made great videos or picture essays, have another life and moved on, while many lurk just to keep up and see if there is anything really new or the same old, same old. Unfortunately its usually the same old topics rehashed which is the nature of these forums in general.

John

Offline justaguy

  • Posts: 70
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2016, 11:05 AM »
 [big grin] Maybe someday we will be worthy of joining a "high-end hifi or photography forum".


Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.



You know, I'm having trouble coming up with a response to this that would allow me to retain my forum status here.

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 213
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2016, 11:20 AM »
The reduction in numbers demonstrates the typical life-cycle of innovative Website content.

The life-cycle has five steps.

1. Discovery- Users find their way here, largely due to the process of seeking information.
2. Absorption Phase- There is outstanding content here with good search capabilities
3. Refinement Phase- Some specifics are very easily obtained
4. Supplementary Phase-Users can build on the initial information
5. Maintenance-Staleness sets in and there is no need to check in as frequently. Through FOG, users discover other sources of information and content such as supplier catalogs, You-Tube other websites.

The numbers show that FOG has reached the maintenance level. There are two factor that often go unnoticed. Invisible is the back-channel messaging that goes on as well as purchasing via the Classified section. I have made significant purchases via classified and I gained from personal messages. I was able to make contact with a person in the Netherlands from whom I received a set of project plans. I have messaged members in the UK as well as Australia.

Now that I know a lot about my Domino 500 and how to square up my MFT/3, I have slipped into just checking once and awhile. I don't expect there can be much done to pick up the numbers. We are over the hump on the bell curve and in the downward phase.

Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 958
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2016, 11:34 AM »
"4) Let us talk about politics, guns, religion, etc."

Then it'll be bye bye from me (not that it'll be a great loss to the FOG as I'm not a great contributor )

I agree. I left Facebook because of all of that crap. If I want to hear about it, I will go to news sites.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 357
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2016, 12:56 PM »
I started watching FOG this year after I got a Domino.  The Domino was a game changer, and I wanted to hear more about what other people were doing and also curious about other Festool tools. 

In the future, I want to hear stuff that will make me a better, more efficient, better quality woodworker:

(1)  Projects, with info on how it was done, and particularly how challenging problems were solved.
(2)  Questions about Festool (or other) tools where the answers have some practical value to me.
(3)  Tips on using tools effectively.  Any tools, though I expect the focus to be on Festool.
(4)  Tool reviews with a focus on how particular tools help to solve those problems.  I expect reviews to steer me away from tools that will not be helpful.
(5)  I love the shop organization stuff - how people build sys-racks, MFT tops, etc. etc.  I currently have a backlog of that kind of stuff on my project list because of this forum.
(6)  Discussion of events.  I learned about the local Festool truck event via this forum, and the hands on experience I got at the event was very helpful in choosing a Festool sander and vacuum.  And I did finally get a PRO 5 sander which is behaving very nicely for me.
(7)  I don't mind civil controversy or disagreement if the focus is on the above.  Creative people working on creative problems are going to favor different solutions, with a lot of factors coming into play - type of project, available tools, economics, and all kinds of other things.  Often it's hearing the discussion about why people make the decisions they do that is most informative.  For example, if person A loves a track saw because they can use it effectively on site while doing remodels, I might admire their use of the saw, but not feel like it would help me much in my shop.  If person B describes how to use a track saw effectively in their shop to solve a problem that I've had in the past, I might be tempted.  But it's not like either one has the final say on using track saws.

So for those of you with more experience than I have, thanks for the contributions and discussions, and keep it coming.  (And almost everyone has more experience than I have in some area or another.)

And I hope that at least some of my posts are interesting to enough people to justify the time and effort.

Online Alex

  • Posts: 5285
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2016, 01:12 PM »
Lots of finger pointing here as to the reason of the decline.

Could it perhaps also be that the market is just saturated?

Looks to me you need people with two interests for a forum like this:
1 - people who like to work with Festool tools.
2 - people who like to talk on forums.

I don't think there is an endless supply of those.

Besides that, just an observation of me, as a long time user, I agree quality content has gotten down a lot. Quality contributors have stopped posting their how-to videos and projects, and this forum has changed into an extension of Festool's service department. Getting tired of the umpteenth "Which sander" post, or the gazillionth "My tool is broken" thread.
 
As for politics, I don't understand why people complain, every discussion here that even hinted in that direction has been nipped in the bud for as long as I know. I don't mind talking politics, but if people don't want it, fine, there's plenty of places to do so. 

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 730
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2016, 02:20 PM »
Could it perhaps also be that the market is just saturated?
Exactly. The number of FOG members correlates with the number of Festool owners. The latter can not grow forever.

Besides that, just an observation of me, as a long time user, I agree quality content has gotten down a lot.
Also agree, but I see it at a different angle. There is a limited number of tricks, for example, to make a narrow rip with TS or joint panes with Domino, etc. Topics get recycled and if you've been on FOG for many years its get boring to see same stuff discussed over and over again.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 730
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2016, 02:38 PM »
Ok I yield.

Maybe, judging by the responses, politics and contentious current affairs would not be the best for this forum.

I don't think the concept is wrong, as it works fine on other forums, but maybe the average blue collar demographic of a powertool forum's user base isn't the right one compared with the type of people who frequent, for example; high-end HiFi forums or photography groups, etc.

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.
Substitute "average FOG user" with "human being" and I agree. Maybe I'm visiting wrong forums, but I have yet to see a discussion of contentious political affairs among largely anonymous users ever ending in a mature and civilized manner.

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 715
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2016, 02:42 PM »
Could it perhaps also be that the market is just saturated?
Exactly. The number of FOG members correlates with the number of Festool owners. The latter can not grow forever.

I'd adjust this to say that the number of FOG readers correlates with the number of Festool owners.

Festool is still growing, and the FOG is still growing in regard to page views. What's declining is the number of new posts, new topics and new members. IMO part of why we're seeing an increase in readership and a decrease in participation is because many of the questions/tips about our most popular tools -- TS 55/75, Rotex sanders, Domino, etc. -- have already been covered. New tools owners are able to get answers/advice/ideas without creating an account or posting anything.

Offline alkaline

  • Posts: 342
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2016, 03:24 PM »
@TylerC

It is true.
I have several boxes Festool, one MTF, four guide rails and big taste to play. )))

Offline mikeomalley

  • Posts: 42
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2016, 03:50 PM »
RMW, Agree with your post.
Mike

Offline Scott Burt

  • Posts: 1941
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2016, 08:15 PM »
I have felt for a while that the internet "golden age" of Festool has passed. I was not basing this on forum participation but on user generated content like Youtube videos and fan sites. Just off the top of my head:

1. Paul-Marcell at HalfInchShy no longer generating Festool videos
2. Wood Whisperer no longer using Festool
3. Bryce Burrell not generating content lately
4. Eric from The Popular Shop seems to be  losing Festool enthusiasm and moving to Bosch
5. Dave Reinhold slowing production of content
6. Braden Stadlman no longer producing content

The only prolific creator of Festool content that I am aware of right now is Peter at New Brit Workshop and he seems to be decreasing the proportion of his content dedicated to Festool. Naturally, any individual creator can tire of what they are doing and want to pursue other interests. But taken in the aggregate, and in the absence of new content producers, it seems like a profound change.

However, I would not extrapolate any of this to the health of Festool USA. They appear to be doing very well.

This is an interesting point, but I’d counter it by pointing to content creators like Kiefer Limeback (Toolaholic), Paul Sprague (Toolpig), Drywall Nation, Toolify, David Stanton, A Concord Carpenter, Canadian Woodworks and others. Not all of this is video content, but they’re all doing interesting things.

None of these guys is 100% Festool, but I personally prefer it that way. I appreciate that we’re getting more content from people who use tools from a variety of manufacturers and can’t be accused of “drinking the green Kool-Aid”.

I don’t see a drop in user-generated content. I think it’s just coming from a different people — and possibly getting less content from more people.

I wouldn't call that a "Golden Age" of content. The best must surely lie ahead.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4714
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2016, 08:41 PM »
A synopsis of my forum habits;

I post only when I have something worth (in my opinion) posting.

When I do something interesting I'll share it. If I come up with a new (to me) process or technique, I'll share it, most often through an unedited video. I come back to answers questions that may arise from my posts.

Still working on the best way to convey the application of Kem Aqua.

I do stop by here a couple of times a day to check on the recent posts. If I have a solution to a question asked, I'll post it.

Tom

Offline Scott Burt

  • Posts: 1941
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2016, 08:54 PM »
A synopsis of my forum habits;

I post only when I have something worth (in my opinion) posting.

When I do something interesting I'll share it. If I come up with a new (to me) process or technique, I'll share it, most often through an unedited video. I come back to answers questions that may arise from my posts.

Still working on the best way to convey the application of Kem Aqua.

I do stop by here a couple of times a day to check on the recent posts. If I have a solution to a question asked, I'll post it.

Tom

Tom, that is how forums should be, people helping people. Its a dying art.

I think this post is getting at the bigger picture of online behavior, which we have all seen social media dominate. And there are reasons for that.

To those who feel that Festool doesn't put appropriate personnel resources into the FOG, which has I believe about 46k members...who apparently come to see content creators as listed above...who apparently lose interest in talking about Festool over time for whatever reasons...

Understand that on social media, Festool Facebook has like 111k followers and Instagram has about 66k and youtube has almost 29k and Twitter nearly 15k.

And you know what? Those pages are loaded with users sharing their own projects using the tools...guess what, because its just fun.

So, we all love to armchair quarterback this mfr, but where would you put your resources? (be objective, as always)

Historically, as a member of many forums that fell into shallow graves they could never rise out of, there is some odd sense of entitlement that sometimes comes with forum membership.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7502
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2016, 09:21 PM »
The convenience of FB, Twitter, Instagram, etc on mobile devices can make the interaction format of these traditional forums unattractive to many.

Things evolve .. you can either work with the change or hang on to what you're familiar with - but not forever!

The wider interacting Festool community is going through change and it'll take time. Consider for a moment that you may dislike FB for some reason - the fact that FB will instantly translate (and do a pretty good job) a German comment into English for you is pretty cool [wink]

"the only constant is change"

 

Offline T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 719
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2016, 09:40 PM »
It think there a lot of good points being brought up.  I use to look at FoG everyday and enjoyed it.  In my option some thing has changed,  not sure if it was me or the FoG.  I really like the projects and tool reviews and there has not been a lot of this lately.  One of my favorite projects was imnothim's bench build.  He not only did a great job with his build but also with his posts. 

I'm personally really worn out by the Kapex drama.  It seems like every couple of weeks more posts about a Kapex dieing and the person being upset and the band wagon that follows.  I went to buy a Kapex today and I couldn't do it with all the motor problems and I wasn't willing to take the risk. I really feel Festool doesn't care about the problem and/or reassured the consumer about the issue.  The last thing that really upset me was the hk saws not being able to cut 2x on a 45 degree bevel.  It's NOT a construction saw if it can't cut a 45 bevel on a 2x.  There was not any attempt to offer a blade 3mm bigget or any other solution to this problem.  None of this is Fogs fault,  I just started looking at other solutions and manufactures.  I've also been on instagram a lot.  Not a lot of drama on there and it's really cool seeing projects and tool reviews.  I do still use Festool Prodcuts everyday and do consider some of their products to be innovative.  I still look at FoG from time to time and I really do miss the members that don't contribute anymore on Fog,  but some of them are on Instagram and if you look you can find them.

  I'm excited to hear that the FoG wI'll be updated.  It doesn't work well with my phone and when I post with a pictures I lose everything when I hit the post botton.  It's very frustrating so I stopped postin being I can only post with pictires from my computer. 

Please don't hate me for what I wrote.  I do still care about the fog and will continue to stop in.  I will continue to drink Kool aid just not as much as I used to. 

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1812
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2016, 10:55 PM »

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

You know, I'm having trouble coming up with a response to this that would allow me to retain my forum status here.

Yea, us knuckle dragging dust makers are better off leaving politics to those smarter folks.   [blink]
+1

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7502
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2016, 11:49 PM »

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

You know, I'm having trouble coming up with a response to this that would allow me to retain my forum status here.

Yea, us knuckle dragging dust makers are better off leaving politics to those smarter folks.   [blink]

OK ... politics. Now let's just position this from a perspective that this is a forum for people that either use tools for enjoyment, professional income or to save money and that several of those tools could be Festools. Let's also consider that the cost of the tools, the energy we use to power them, the people we may employ to use them and the materials the tools are actually used on are important to forum members.

Every part of the above has potential for numerous splinter topics of political nature. Add legal, safety, education, cadetships, apprenticeships, etc and BANG you'll have oodles of politics with smatterings of religion everywhere.

Personally I think it's a shame that the forum rules are such that we can't openly discuss certain things ... specifically in the areas of business where many, many people here are probably more aware of reality than some politicians with their biased ranks of advisors.

The reason I believe that politics (and religion, etc) won't survive discussion on the FOG is that some people to this day take offence at others having a different view to their own, rather than simply respecting it and possibly trying to understand it, they attack it. Debating and potentially agreeing to respectfully disagree is very hard for many people.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1812
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2016, 12:17 AM »
@Kev I tend to agree with the no politics rule, especially considering the international aspect of the forum, I was more so addressing the tone of condescension that was coming through the earlier post, as if FOG members are too ignorant to understand political matters.

It's the prohibition of discussing tool mods and anything deemed unsafe that hinders some interesting, useful and topically relevant discussion. I understand the liability concerns but am not sure they are warranted, but it's not my bacon that would be in the frying pan.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:11 AM by Paul G »
+1

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 715
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2016, 09:42 AM »
As promised, here are my thoughts on the questions/comments on the 2016 State of the FOG. None of this is the "official Festool position" or anything. It's just my personal and candid thoughts. Here goes:

1. I took a deep look at the FOG stats, and I found some interesting things.
   •   New topics, new posts and new members pretty clearly peaked in 2014 and 2015. The 2016 numbers here are pretty similar to 2013 numbers. However, there was also a drop in 2012 before an increase in 2013, so things can turn around.
   •   New members had a really dramatic spike in 2014 and 2015. That spike ended last autumn. Honestly, this isn’t a big surprise to me, because increasing FOG memberships hasn’t been a big focus for us this year. When we launch our new websites for North America this spring, we’ll do more to direct people toward the FOG.
   •   Despite the drop in new topic/posts/members, 2016 was the FOG’s biggest year yet for Page Views. My theory for this is that many people are now using the FOG to find answers to previously asked questions. By this point, most of the critical questions about — for example — the TS 55 — have already been asked on the FOG. Therefore, new TS 55 owners are getting their questions answered without having to create an account or post anything.

2. When we talk about “Festool being less active”, let’s be clear what we mean: I am not as active as Shane was/is. That’s true. Guilty as charged. To best honest, I’m personally never going to be as active as Shane. That said, I definitely should be more responsive, and I will make a concentrated effort to do better in 2017.

3. I’m working to get more global resources for the FOG next year. Phil and I represent only a small part of the world, and the FOG is increasingly becoming a global community. There are a lot of questions that I simply don’t have an answer to as a US employee. Furthermore, as a US employee, it’s difficult for me to justify spending too much time working with non-US issues. I don't know the what/when/how of this yet, but I think that it will be beneficial to everyone.

4. I’m planning to create a survey in the next week or two to get some quantitative beginning-of-year feedback. One struggle with something like the FOG is that everyone’s vision/likes/dislikes are slightly different. Threads like this a good, but they only include the feedback of a handful of people. I hope that the survey gives some helpful insight.

5. There are a LOT of people who just read the FOG and don’t post. (see #1, bullet 3) Is there a way to get those people to start engaging? I’m not sure, but I’d like to try. Hopefully, the aforementioned survey will give a look into that. Which leads me to the next point.

6. There is often a negativity on the FOG that turns people away. Honest feedback and frank discussions are necessary — even when it’s difficult to be on the receiving end of — but the negativity is something that I hear about from people regularly. During Roadshow stops this year, I had a nearly identical conversation with three separate people.

Person: “Are you Tyler from the FOG?”
Me: “Yes, what’s your FOG username?
Person: “Oh, I don’t post. I just read. Those guys are vicious. I don’t feel comfortable posting there.”

Most interactions that I see on the FOG are positive, helpful and productive, but I hear this kind of thing too often to ignore it.

7. Sorry, @bobfog, but politics is a non-starter. Personally, I love a good political debate, but the FOG simply isn’t the place for it. (And it looks like most people agree on this point.)

8. Lastly, I hate making excuses, but —as one of Festool’s two representatives on the FOG — I'd like to give a little insight from where I'm coming from. There is a huge Festool learning curve, and I wasn't hired for my technical tool/woodworking expertise. During the FOG’s 2014/2015 peak, Shane had been with Festool and on the FOG for about 7 years (if I have my history right), and he’d built up an incredible knowledge and history during that time. I joined Festool and the FOG last year, and I was drinking from the fire hose. Part of the reason why I was respond is simply because I didn’t know the answer, and sometimes tracking down answers takes a while. Quite frankly, I was also intimidated by the FOG, because many of you guys knew more than I did. I know that this has tried some of your patience, but I appreciate that patience nonetheless.

Offline Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2801
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2016, 03:05 PM »
Thanks for the thoughtful and honest reply.  I think there's certainly a case to be made that in terms of the numbers 2016 could just as easily be reversion to the mean rather than signaling decline.  Looking forward to seeing the new initiatives.   
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2430
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2016, 04:37 PM »
Thanks @TylerC , an honest reply and one that just about sums up all that has been presented. I look fwd to a new technical beginning with the software update.

It would be great if additional Festool reps could be involved. 'One for the Aussies' reflects angst down here amongst some customers. Rather than 'Kapex' issues [eek] [smile]; down here this angst reflects the scope of 'Service all Inclusive' and Australian pricing structures. Although a seperate identity, a voice from Festool Aust as represented by Tooltechnic Aust. would be proactive and welcome.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 05:16 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 359
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2016, 06:58 PM »
Thanks @TylerC a good summary.

It's sad to hear of people keeping away from the FOG due to the "bad attitude" except for occasional examples, I'm not sure I've seen much of that here myself.

I totally appreciate your contributions here, along with Phil at Festool UK, and would never offer criticism to either of you. I think it is painfully obvious that Festool HQ does not have much interest in contributing to the FOG. And Personally i think that is a mistake.

In regards to the social media side of things... I am not too in the loop on these things, but i am yet to personally find ANYTHING of interest on Festool UK Facebook or Twitter! Mostly just people making irrelevant # or @ comments to their friends or simply rubbishing Festool based on cost. So i don't really see how those avenues are worthwhile investments of staff time above the FOG. Actually thinking about it, i also don't see anything that suggests anyone from festool is actually devoting any notable time to those sites either - but like i said I'm not there very often.

The FOG is a great resource and i hope it continues for a long time. Sorry to those who feel their long time hang out isn't what it used to be, but that's life, people move on. There are many forms i was once a big part of that i haven't visited for years.

While I'm here - thanks to the mods! Peter & Seth your time is also much appreciated. Thank you.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2016, 07:21 PM »
I think it is painfully obvious that Festool HQ does not have much interest in contributing to the FOG. And Personally i think that is a mistake.

I'll disagree with you on this. A year ago, it was possibly true, but more and more folks at HQ are learning about the FOG and seeing the value. They're paying more and more attention, and I think it's just a matter of time before you see the fruit of that.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 668
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2016, 07:38 PM »
I'll disagree with you on this. A year ago, it was possibly true, but more and more folks at HQ are learning about the FOG and seeing the value. They're paying more and more attention, and I think it's just a matter of time before you see the fruit of that.

But it would be nice if they occasionally announced their presence with a posting.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7502
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2016, 09:28 PM »
I'll disagree with you on this. A year ago, it was possibly true, but more and more folks at HQ are learning about the FOG and seeing the value. They're paying more and more attention, and I think it's just a matter of time before you see the fruit of that.

But it would be nice if they occasionally announced their presence with a posting.

We need a FOG survey with a distinct international perspective ...

What is your country?

Are you happy with you local Festool distributor?

Are you happy with local --- /price?  /range?  /warranty?  /service?  /communication?  /new product launches?  /dealer network?  /training options?  /etc, etc.

There's been an opportunity to gain this insight for years - but it's only of value if there's an inclination to address the issues that are uncovered and I personally feel that there's very little inclination to address issues in the markets where the distributor is a third party (such as Tooltechnic Australia).

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 817
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2016, 02:15 AM »
I'll disagree with you on this. A year ago, it was possibly true, but more and more folks at HQ are learning about the FOG and seeing the value. They're paying more and more attention, and I think it's just a matter of time before you see the fruit of that.

But it would be nice if they occasionally announced their presence with a posting.
Very true, over the years I've asked numerous Festool Reps when I have bumped into them if they were aware of the FOG and they all were, why no one from Aus is willing to participate has always been a mystery. But I got the impression that FB was their preferred way of communicating.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7502
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2016, 03:09 AM »
Very true, over the years I've asked numerous Festool Reps when I have bumped into them if they were aware of the FOG and they all were, why no one from Aus is willing to participate has always been a mystery. But I got the impression that FB was their preferred way of communicating.

They're really not using FB to communicate ... just to mark their territory (if you know what I mean).

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 359
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2016, 03:31 AM »
I think it is painfully obvious that Festool HQ does not have much interest in contributing to the FOG. And Personally i think that is a mistake.

I'll disagree with you on this. A year ago, it was possibly true, but more and more folks at HQ are learning about the FOG and seeing the value. They're paying more and more attention, and I think it's just a matter of time before you see the fruit of that.

Well that is encouraging to hear 
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2016, 07:59 AM »
A handful of the Aussies have asked about Festool Australia's lack of online activity. This is because Festool is in Australia through an import partner. We don't the same official presence there that we have in countries like the US, UK, France, Germany, etc.

I've told my wife that if Festool decides to build a bigger marketing team in Australia, I'm signing up. She very quickly vetoed that.

Offline Mort

  • Posts: 345
  • World's Tallest Midget
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2016, 01:01 PM »
Tell her it's just like Indiana, but with more Kangaroos.
I hate signatures.

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1691
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2016, 01:48 PM »
I remember the old days when Festool first seriously ramped up its presence in the US and all the tools were new.  I was scrambling to find info on the track saw and the mft and the FOG was the go-to place for that.  About the time I had pretty well figured out how those work, the Domino came along and everything was new and mysterious again, but the FOG came through.

But in the last few years, the new products have been more narrowly useful: the edge bander, the drywall sander, etc - which are all great if thats what you do for a living, but not so much for hobbyists like me.

Hoping for some exciting new tools soon to stoke up the fire again. [big grin]

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7502
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2016, 03:26 PM »
A handful of the Aussies have asked about Festool Australia's lack of online activity. This is because Festool is in Australia through an import partner. We don't the same official presence there that we have in countries like the US, UK, France, Germany, etc.

I've told my wife that if Festool decides to build a bigger marketing team in Australia, I'm signing up. She very quickly vetoed that.

Hey @TylerC I have an alignment problem with my CMS .. do you mind just popping over [big grin]

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2430
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2016, 04:26 PM »
Tell her it's just like Indiana, but with more Kangaroos.

And @TylerC  also tell her you will be the head of a new Festo/Festool 'skippy' division in Australia.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 04:31 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Arvid

  • Posts: 76
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2016, 06:01 PM »
Only so many people can bleed green and color coordinate there home workshop to look like a giant festool systainer.
The gang who drank the kool aid can jump down the throats of anyone simply saying festool is not the end all be all and many of their products are over priced and unnecessary and simply do not make sense to waste their money on. Ive see nit many times. tool snobbery

Offline Edward A Reno III

  • Posts: 2801
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2016, 09:46 AM »
Yeah, but does it do trim work?


Tell her it's just like Indiana, but with more Kangaroos.

And @TylerC  also tell her you will be the head of a new Festo/Festool 'skippy' division in Australia.


Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/420 FSK rail • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • HL 850 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Zen

  • Posts: 2
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2016, 12:14 PM »
My first post. I did join FOG when I bought my first Festool. FOG has been a wonderful resource; I read and search for all sorts of useful information. Since I have nothing to add at this point, I simple read as a guest, pretty much daily. I imagine others folks use this sight regularly with no need to become a member. Membership is not needed to read and research. So membership might not be growing but usage might be?
Thanks to all of you helpful folks who post and share your insights, talents, and support. You are appreciated.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
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Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2016, 12:31 PM »
I do notice frequently that there are more guests viewing topics then registered users, case in point 3 registered and 7 guests:



RMW
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
Discounts for FOG members @ www.ripdogs.com/fog-discount/

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6558
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2016, 01:20 PM »
My participation on Fog dramatically declined few reasons.

1. I became a daddy
2. new topics are often just repeats from old topics.
3. Certain members have not been as active any more which I use to have bant with.
4. Was the final straw when Festool decided to delete old pictures on topics.  This has made many including mine useless and the entire topic might as well be deleted.  I felt whats the point and I now cant be bothered posting any of my jobs/projects on here any more.
5. I feel fog is to slow....if that makes sence? Facebook is much quicker regarding replies and notifications its more mobile friendly   

 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 04:20 PM by jmbfestool »
*********************************************************************** [thumbs up]UK members click me
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Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2430
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2016, 02:52 PM »
@jmbfestool

Congratulations on your fatherhood.   [smile]

You made some great contributions in the past, and to me with others are a significant example of your third point.  [big grin]

Re point 2. Yes I wonder why some do not use the search button.  [eek]

Point 5 is another angst I have, together with drop offs. The other day I made three attempts to answer another members question, being unlogged each time. Others may not have preserved, certainly I was not going to try a fourth time.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 01:16 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 73
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2016, 05:48 PM »
Facebook is all very well, but I just wonder how many pros actually have the time to read it all the time? I'm saying this becaue one of my issues is stopping idiot apprentices and labourers spending all their time on social media instead of working, if you give them half  chance. I tried FB a few years back and very quickly grew to hate it. Mybe it's a generational thing, but for every useful post I'd find myself wading through 40 or 50 pieces of utter, nonesensical garbage. At my age life's too short for that!
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3290
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2016, 06:50 PM »
My participation on Fog dramatically declined few reasons.

1. I became a daddy
2. new topics are often just repeats from old topics.
3. Certain members have not been as active any more which I use to have bant with.
4. Was the final straw when Festool decided to delete old pictures on topics.  This has made many including mine useless and the entire topic might as well be deleted.  I felt whats the point and I now cant be bothered posting any of my jobs/projects on here any more.
5. I feel fog is to slow....if that makes sence? Facebook is much quicker regarding replies and notifications its more mobile friendly   

 


i have to agree with jmb
a lot of the older posters and big hitters(post wise ) are not posting.
i looked down through the first few pages of the members that have the most posts. there are 6-7 members that havnt even logged in in the last 12 months some even 24+ months
loads of the top few pages havnt posted in 6-12 months

i dont see any of the  really unique content posters posting like paul marcell, ron wen,qwas, sitting elf,honey do kreg,frank pellow,  etc . even the systainer king seth isnt posting new systainer inserts.

its a shame that jmb isnt posting as much . i really enjyed your work shop and jobs . you do lots of interesting work
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3290
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2016, 06:55 PM »
i dont know what is needed to stop the decline and to turn things around . we need to get the old guys posting again. its the unique stuff that does that. we all get fed up of the same threads over and over . they tent to get left to the new guys to answer.


i think we need monthly compettiions based on jig,techniques, tips etc where there are international prizes . hopefull this will bring in new ideas

cnc secion. its the way forward and it might give something interesting to talk about.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 842
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2016, 07:19 PM »
I personally wouldn't worry about doing a numbers game about the user usage. The Forum has changed recently with the loss of some very enthusiastic and gifted contributors. The content they made is still available here. Perhaps in due time new stars will show up that will help fire up forum enthusiasm bring up new ideas and techniques. I'm sure the next wave Fog geniuses is just around the corner..

850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
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  • Posts: 715
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2016, 07:41 PM »
My participation on Fog dramatically declined few reasons.

1. I became a daddy
2. new topics are often just repeats from old topics.
3. Certain members have not been as active any more which I use to have bant with.
4. Was the final straw when Festool decided to delete old pictures on topics.  This has made many including mine useless and the entire topic might as well be deleted.  I felt whats the point and I now cant be bothered posting any of my jobs/projects on here any more.
5. I feel fog is to slow....if that makes sence? Facebook is much quicker regarding replies and notifications its more mobile friendly   

 

Good points. Two quick things:

1. It might just be a semantic argument, but  Festool didn't "decide to delete old photos". It happened shortly before I joined the team, but my understanding is that it was an accident by a new employee. The end result is the same, but it wasn't intentional.

2. A lot of people have said that one problem is that certain old FOG members aren't posting anymore -- and that the solution is to get them to rejoin. With all due respect to those guys, it's a big world. It might be more fruitful to focus on bringing new people into the fold than bringing old users back in.

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3290
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2016, 02:59 PM »
i think we need to find out why our older members are not contibution so that we can stop it getting worse. people come and go all the time but i have noticed alot of members over the years come in with great ideas and then stop posting again
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 958
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2016, 03:25 PM »
i think we need to find out why our older members are not contibution so that we can stop it getting worse. people come and go all the time but i have noticed alot of members over the years come in with great ideas and then stop posting again

Did you not read Tyler's post? I read it as Festool wanting the older members gone.

Online Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1008
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2016, 04:01 PM »
i think we need to find out why our older members are not contibution so that we can stop it getting worse. people come and go all the time but i have noticed alot of members over the years come in with great ideas and then stop posting again

Did you not read Tyler's post? I read it as Festool wanting the older members gone.

I don't think Tyler was saying festool doesn't want the old members back, I think he was saying that it is hard for people that may have been slighted or felt attacked to change their minds and return, so it is easier to recruit new members.  I'm sure @TylerC will correct me if I'm off base or needs further clarification.
Bryan

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4714
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2016, 04:08 PM »
i think we need to find out why our older members are not contibution so that we can stop it getting worse. people come and go all the time but i have noticed alot of members over the years come in with great ideas and then stop posting again

Did you not read Tyler's post? I read it as Festool wanting the older members gone.

I do not read it this way-----I'm an old guy by the way.

Tom

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3290
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2016, 05:21 PM »
i dont read it like that
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
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  • Posts: 715
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2016, 05:37 PM »
If you interpreted my statement as "we don't want old FOG members to return," that certainly wasn't my intention.

I'm just saying that I hate the idea that the FOG can't be great unless a specific group of people return. Hopefully they will, but maybe the won't. I think that the FOG can be good regardless.

This thread has been a productive way to end the year. With that, I'm going to lock it tomorrow morning as we kick off a new year of the FOG.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 09:46 PM by TylerC »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4714
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2016, 06:01 PM »


This thread has been a productive way to end the year. With that, I'm going to lock it tomorrow morning as we kick off a new year of the FOG.

With that---Happy New Year everyone.

Tom

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3290
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2016, 06:04 PM »
of course the fog can and hopefully will be great without older members.

but there must be an issue that is causing members to stop posting (its just the old timers that are obvious)

i know myself that things arnt as interesting as they used to be. im putting  hat down to lack of inovative ideas being posted. thats what i look out for when i check in
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1812
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2016, 08:19 PM »
i think we need to find out why our older members are not contibution so that we can stop it getting worse. people come and go all the time but i have noticed alot of members over the years come in with great ideas and then stop posting again

Did you not read Tyler's post? I read it as Festool wanting the older members gone.

I certainly didn't get that from his comments.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 2780
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2016, 10:23 PM »
A lot of people have said that one problem is that certain old FOG members aren't posting anymore -- and that the solution is to get them to rejoin. With all due respect to those guys, it's a big world. It might be more fruitful to focus on bringing new people into the fold than bringing old users back in.

Amen...times change...people change, just because you're a motor head does that mean you need to continue to be a motor head until the day you die?

Cars, metalworking, guns, motorcycles, runners, woodworkers, bicyclers, surfers, watches, golfers...well you get the idea, these are all just areas of interest that lucky for us, we can enjoy and experience and when we've tasted enough, sometimes we switch to sample a different interest. It doesn't mean we're not still interested in the hobby, it just means we've expanded our options and maybe we no longer feel the compunction to post on the FOG.

Embrace the fact and be thankful that these "old" posters took the time and effort to post their experiences, but also embrace change and that the baton needs to be handed to the next one in-line rather than the oldest one in-line.

A very happy & safe New Year to all... [big grin] [big grin]

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1812
Re: New membership numbers on the FOG
« Reply #91 on: January 01, 2017, 01:56 AM »
This thread begs the question of what role does FOG play in the ecosystem of Festool. Somewhere there is an executive and a bean counter evaluating the ROI on the spend here, what purpose it serves to the company and whether or not it's all worth it. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for those conversations.
+1