I like it Mathew and the prize is nice.

But how about an additional smaller prize for a random drawing.

The way you have it seems unfair to me in some ways. Guys that do this for a living and people who are retired who MAY have more time on their hands and people with 100,000.00 of tools and unlimited access to material may have an advantage the way you have it set up.

Plus voting? I will find it hard to choose one persons hard work over another's. This is going to create massive threads about the unfairness someone has over another or whether the project was picked because the person is liked on the forum or not liked.

If Festoeringtool had the best project by far he would still lose. This can turn into a popularity contest.  In addition some of the most difficult things to pull off with finesse can be lost on a lot of people that are not pros. I see items being picked for many reasons. Is this for skill, utilitarian use, design, beauty, simplicity, best use of a Festool, etc. Or is the winner the one that has the best "how to" which is totally subjective and a cause for disagreement right there. ? If someone does something unsafe, but the final project rocks should they win? There is a lot to consider if the contest is not a random type drawing.

I like the idea of a project, but how about a random drawing for everyone who submits a project. It will be Impossible to hurt anyones feelings or create anger or frustration that way.

I think I will exclude myself out of fairness to others that do not have a shop set up like mine or a shop at all. I would not exclude myself if it were a random type drawing for project participants.

I sure would hate to compete against Jerry on this forum.

Nickao

You are welcome I am going to have to tweak my post a little, but the idea is there. I think  this will be a nice long thread.

Nickao

"welcome to the real world" has nothing to do with creating a friendly forum environment.

I am here for anyone participating to help in any way I can. Not to out do them in any way. And a competition  is "out doing", by definition. I have enough on my plate I am not adding competing on this forum. If I wanted to do that I would compete against my peers in my trade, which I have done in the past. I am just not going to do it here. That's me, do what you want.

I will vote if that is the consensus for how this should be done though. Oh and good luck competing against the likes of Jerry or some of the others, anyone can be hit by lightning I guess 

And one more thing. Voting excludes way to many beginners. There should at the least be different tiers of competition. Even the patriots don't play the local high school. That's what you are proposing.

Nickao

If you truly meant that you are looking for "creative" uses of Festool, I don't think that would be that much of a handicap for beginners.

Who says that is how people will vote, that is one of my points.

People will vote for whatever reason they want. Now if there were judges well known in the field to judge the best application of a Festool, I would buy that. Look at American Idol some of the best people get kicked off and some of the worst stay, voting by people on  the forum for one specific criteria is not going to happen.

Nickao

Okay I just walked in my shop. I have been working on a jig in development for the use of Festools. Should I now hold back and not show it because of this contest. I was going to post and have people jump in and help improve it.

Knowing there is a tool on the line for ideas like this now I do not wan to share and may not put out the ideas for a few months until it is perfect.

In two months while I am secretly working away tons of people could be working on the idea, using the idea, and expanding upon it.

Is this the type of thinking we want to promote on this forum? That's what a competitive contest is going to do.

Oops forgot, I excluded myself for any competition. So I will share with all.

Nickao

Nick, I don't think participation is mandatory, so there's no pressure there. And by my way of thinking ANY type of contest would be a competition, whether it is won by skill or by having your name drawn. There must be a winner and a whole bunch of losers. But they don't have to be sore losers.





My thinking exactly, if they all should happen to be struck by lightning, I might be able to win.  


John

jonny,
I understand your response!  For a long time, I've been trying to get more international support for this forum from worldwide Festool branches.  Festool USA has been the only Festool branch to get involved in this forum, either by providing information or tools for contests.  However, if the international poll numbers from this forum are any indication, about 20% of our membership comes from places outside the US and Canada.  That's a significant number.

My advice to those of you outside the US and Canada: e-mail your local Festool branches, and tell them you want them to get involved.  That might cause something to happen.

Matthew

I've thought about your posts, and I have to admit, I'm not sure I understand how a friendly competition among supportive members would make people keep their ideas to themselves.  Likewise, I don't see how pushing people to use tools for something interesting and new is going to stifle creativity.

In my mind, a random competition would stifle creativity.  It sends this message: "Winning has nothing to do with your imagination.  It's just luck."

This is a community of people who like each other and are interested in learning from each other.  The contest is meant to operate in that atmosphere.  The whole idea of this forum is to be different.

Matthew

Maybe I should have said a sense of sharing ideas then. You are to good a person to really think that is how everyone thinks. Some people are going to do what it takes to get that prize.

You do not think that someone may hold back an idea to use  the following month? Or hold back an idea to work on until it was perfect rather than putting out  right away. I definitely think it will happen.

This is your forum and I go with the whatever you decide. But I think what I am saying rings true.

Everyone is not a great person who will  share their ideas. I have worked in the field long enough that if anything, guys keep their secrets to themselves. That is reality. And I just did not want to see that trickle into this forum as far as the Festools. Trade secrets are entirely different.

Heck, guys were voting to increase Festools cost on the basis that they did not want other people getting their hands on them or to compete against them. That is all through that thread and confirms what I am saying about the nature of many people.

Anything I say while participating here is out of the goodness of my heart I hope you take it in that spirit. If not I am wasting a whole lot of time typing.

Nickao

Oh, I'm sure someone will be along shortly, ranting and SHOUTING about how the idea sucks, and tearing the idea apart by writing screeds and screeds... 

If I were to pick a hole with the idea of random drawing, it would be that someone who submitted an item that had been knocked up in 30 minutes and looked as though it would fall apart as soon as you sneezed, could easily win the competition     That's not a very good advert for Festool, and the company might well be rather wary about handing out very expensive prizes for what is basically a raffle.

Also members who had spent days or weeks on a well-designed project, built it of the finest materials, and polished it to a dazzling shine, would not be particularly pleased if a pile of junk won the competition!

Forrest (who, being in the UK, can't win anything and therefore has no axe to grind one way or the other)

Everyone,
I just realized a technicality about the way to handle the deadlines for contest submissions.  I have edited the section, "How a Winner is Chosen."
Matthew

 I think I'm starting to feel uneasy about this. So far the FOG has been a way to
 share ideas, tips, ask questions, etc ... but the idea of a competition seems
 to break the openness of it and it has a marketing smell behind it.
I would rather leave it to the Festool newsletter instead of seeing it in the FOG.

I would rather prefer a random drawing among the active (i.e. posting) members
of the month, or something like that, with relativelt small prizes, or even a
poll of a random selection of members to designate who they think
contributed the most during a period. But definitely not something you
submit for.

I'm not sure I made myself clear ?

Hope I don't hurt anyone,   May be it is my european, or even my own personal
profile - I never liked competition, even if I can be quite good at it in some domains.
But of course, this is nothing else than my personal opinion and I respect the one
of others.

Thank you - that's very generous of you. I'm not a competition sort of person, but as Matthew pointed out, there are quite a lot of members outside the USA and Canada, and something like sandpaper is almost like a universal currency!

Forrest

Very well said and much better than what I tried to express.

So far I can see both sides of this issue.  My first Festools were the ES125 sander and CT22 vacuum.  How creative could I be moving the sander across the surface of the wood???  This may exclude many beginning woodworkers and members that may not have extra money (after bills) to buy materials for projects.

On the other hand, this would be a good way for some members to show off their skills.  And maybe it would be better to reward those who use the tools to build outstanding projects rather than a random drawing.  And there would be fewer entries per month (compared to all posting members), so the odd of winning would be better.

Tom.

Matthew,

I agree with Nickao's comments identifying many issues and problems for consideration.   He identified a lot of good issues to be concerned with.

Absent a random drawing in which all mwmbers who submit a written description of their project along with a photo (which I cannot do at present), there is a huge two-fold problem: 1) is setting the criteria to be used to select a winner and 2) is judging which submission best met those criteria.  How do you assign / scale values to creativity, if that is among the criteria?  Since the focus appears to be on NEW ways to use Festool products, judging the relative amount of creativity seems to be key.

Have you considered how Fine Woodworking judges reader tips and awards their prizes?   Do they use a jury of their professional woodworkers who regularly contribute articles to their magazine?   Should FOG select a jury of professionals to act as judges?  Would professionals who participate in FOG be willing to act as judges?  I note the value of the FW prizes is considerably lower than any new Festool product.

I also agree with Nickao's concern that a prize might cause people to hold back until they can present their ideas in a form that makes them eligible to win a new Festool, turing cooperation and sharing into competition and a focus on self.  I have seen this operate in the business world many times, where people hold back their ideas until they leave their present employment to go into business for themselves or to impress their new employer.   The bigger the prize, the more likely people are to focus on what can become personal gain.

It might be possible to create a list of criteria including creativity, usefulness, etc. and through voting of a jury (of professionals or all FOG members) assign numeric values to each criteria, and the winner would be the entry with the highest composite score.  Some ideas will be extremely creative, but perhaps not very useful to many others on FOG.  Car and Driver Magazine uses this approach when judging cars included in a comparison test to arrive at a final ranking of the cars.  Note that different criteria may be assigned different weights in determing their contribution to the the overall score.

Dave R.

  Adding a high level of formality to this contest will take away from some the fun. This contest isn't about giving a tools to just anyone, its about challenging members to come up with creative and exciting projects (threads). In the end everyone on FOG wins from the shared information the contest will bring to the site. I'd be more likely to vote for someone that put forth a real effort, their time and energy to share information over a project that was stunning but added very little to the forum. I'd also like to see members: talk about the design, document the building process, add a little "how to" info, you know give the other members something great to read. I've taken a great deal of my time to try to create informative thread on this site, there is no reason the rest of you guys can't do it too. So, put on your thinking caps, get your camera out, then, get into the shop and get to work.

RDMuller, welcome to the FOG and what a well written first post.    I am all for competition and I love the idea of the MFK 700 except for the part of having already prepaid for it.  I am an adequate woodworker at best and I believe what I lack the least is creativity unless it comes to seeing what is wrong and then fixing something. For some reason that has always been a strength. So, a contest like this is one that I will probably never win except in one way and I think that it is the most important.

I will enter each time and try my hardest and what will happen is that I will get better and I will enjoy myself. Very hard to beat those results. Fred

Brice, thank you very much. Fred

Everyone,
As Brice, Fred, and others have noted, this contest is meant to be fun and friendly, a way to push members to not only create something but also photograph it so others can see it and learn from it.  Being chosen by your peers on the forum is just a bonus.

I've been thinking about some of nickao's comments, specifically the point that people might withhold their projects if they know there's a contest.  I'm not sure I agree, but just in case I came up with a solution.  Instead of having monthly deadlines, I'll make it so that all projects ever posted in the "Projects" boards are eligible at any time.  Of course, if your project wins it is no longer eligible, but other than that, any project that meets the requirements can win.  Another point: people can revise their projects.  That way, if by chance someone is withholding a project for some reason, he or she can post it, then edit the post at a later date when it is "ready" and the project will be eligible.

I like this idea for a few reasons:

• Your project is automatically entered for as long as the contest program runs
• Members are encouraged to post their ideas sooner rather than later
• Members with great projects do not lose out just because of the month they happen to post in
• It's easier from an administrative point of view, since I just need to add the newest entries to the poll

I've edited the proposed rules (at the start of this discussion) to reflect this change.

Matthew

Hi,

   It seems that if it were monthly, then there would not really be that much time to with hold anyway. Plus I would be inclined to simply work on something until ready wether it was monthly or not.   Won't the everything in all the time idea build up too many choices to be voted on?  If there are say 100 automatic entries, and say 20 of them captured most  of the votes , I think that fairly often the winning entry would have a very small proportion of the votes. I know this should be fun,  and the recognition of peers is really the point. But winning with say 10 - 20% of the vote  sort of takes the recognition out of it too.     The thing about a competition is ....   that it is a competition, no matter how you slice it.   
   I don't have any solutions to offer     And I think this is a great idea in general..  You may just have to do it and see how it pans out.


Seth
   

Matthew, I very much like the change in your rules but do have a question. Nick and others had mentioned cool jigs that they were going to submit. You said something that made me think that maybe jigs were not applicable right now. And of course this new change in the rules could obviate this issue anyway. Thanks, Fred

Let me tell you about my friend Al.  Every word is true, except his name and one connection I'll make later.

Al had a diving accident when he was 19.  Since then he has been a quadriplegic.  He has enough control of his arms that he can drive a specially-equipped vehicle, and in fact has driven all over the vast state of California.  He does not have any fine motor coordination in his hands--he can't write without stylus and keyboard, and he will never be able to hold a woodworking tool, much less work with it.  He has a strong mechanical inclination and understanding--he's conceived and designed many of his own assistive devices.

Al has both an MA and an MBA (advanced degrees).  He has started and run several companies.  He's now over 65, and has scaled back a bit.  His current enterprise provides useful full-time employment for 7 people, only one of whom is needed as his caretaker.  He has raised several children who've turned out pretty well.

Al leads a full and well-rounded life, which includes hobbies.

Now the fiction:  Let's say that Al discovers Festool, and he is entranced by the engineering and design.  He begins to buy them and he participates on FOG.

What could he do besides read?  Well, he could and probably would contribute in the way that Forrest Anderson has so ably, by organizing information.  And he'd be critiquing jig designs.  And his posts would be worth reading.  And he would be a valued participant.


My point is this:  This is the Festool Owners Group, not the Festool Woodworking Group.  Even though woodworking is the major reason for the tools, it may not be the reason why someone is here.  Al's an extreme case, but some of us do have other motivations; those different points of view are useful to all, including the woodworkers.

It won't encourage thinking outside the box if only the makers of very nice boxes are rewarded.  OK, let's add some other contests--

• Best Creative On-site Use.
• Best Non-Woodworking Use.
• Best Jig.
• Best Use The Factory Never Thought Of.
• Best Use of Festools For Production of 500 or More of Something.
• My personal favorite-- Best Idea For Something That's Beyond The Creator's Ability To Build.   

         

I want to see all of these projects and ideas, including the beautiful woodworking ones.  Limiting rewards to best of woodworking alone excludes many, many of us.  For those who don't get my sense of humor--the proposed contests above wouldn't be any better.

I agree strongly with those who point out that the no-winners-no-losers trend is damaging to society.  Graceful winning and losing needs to be taught to every child, but I don't think it needs to be taught here.  A random drawing will not affect our moral fiber.

Requiring that Festools be involved in a submitted project creates a problem:  we'll never be able to enjoy the delight of pushing a newbie off the edge of the slippery green slope by giving him his first tool!

I feel strongly that non-North American members should be able to participate fully, including winning drawings like this one.  The short-term answer may be an equivalent value of non-electrical Festool stuff sent to a non-NA winner.  The suggestion that sandpaper is a near-universal currency is hilarious, but true.  Still, I can't imagine anyone being as excited by a Domino's-worth of sandpaper as they would be by a Domino.  I hope that Festool can arrange to have the proper version of the tool available for any winner.

In my opinion, the only reasonable way to distribute goodies from Festool is by random drawing from the pool of people who both register and donate to FOG.

The current scheme has a high potential for divisiveness.  I do not think it is a good idea, or that any such contest can be somehow adjusted to become a good idea.  I will not submit a project, I will not participate in discussion of the merits of one submission or another, and I will not vote in the contest.

Ned

I want to keep this simple to start off, so for the first contest I'd like to just include projects.  Depending on the response, it could easily expand to jigs and other ideas in the second month.


We don't have to limit projects to woodworking.  If someone can post about another kind of project, I'd love to see it.  Regarding your list of "other contests," I'm open to ideas.  But how would you administer all those sub-categories?

Matthew

Steve, your thoughts mirror mine EXACTLY!

When I saw Matthew's first post about the contest, my first thought was that it was a such great idea. A win/win for everybody involved. No downside.

Maybe it's because I'm relatively new around here, but I never expected the level of discussion, nit-picking and controversy that soon followed. It brings to mind that old saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Especially surprising to me is the notion put forth that Festool-USA should be willing to sponsor a contest for the whole world.

Those of us that regularly read through this forum know that the collective ingenuity of the members is pretty impressive. If this contest increases the flow of those creative juices, the big winners would be those of us who mostly watch from the sidelines, gathering more information for our reference libraries. Winning a Festool would be nice but, from what I've seen around here, most of us can afford to buy any Festool product we want, and we know where to get them. Good, original ideas can be much harder to come by.


John

Regarding the issue of divisiveness caused by the members voting on projects, would Festool like to provide judges?  Afterall, they are providing the prizes. 

I'm not advocating this thought, just thinking about it out loud,

Dan

Sanders are always a nice prize.  Since the Festool Sanders certainly have a different price tag attached to them.  Perhaps for smaller projects The DTS, RTS, and ETS would be a prize.  The specialty sanders i.e. RS2E, DX 93, ETS 150s and RAS 115, LS 130,  be in another league, and the RO's in the top league. 

THE COMMENT TO FOLLOW IS BY NO MEANS INTENDED TO BE A SALES PITCH!!!

Festool Junkie thinks that the contest idea is a super way to promote Festool Woodworking.  We especially like the Kids with Adult projects.  FJ would sponsor a contest in a heart beat with regards to the sanders.  If we went with a kids contest, the projects would NOT need to be near as elaborate as the "furniture type thing".

Contest for the DTS, RTS, and ETS 125:  Total of 3 contests annually.  One winner of each contest time frame.

One thought I have is to make guidelines with regards to what needs to be built.  Something that should not take longer than a month to complete.  Perhaps coming up with a list of 3-5 different pieces that Dad / Parent / Guradian could help with.  The youngster would be 7-10 years old, and once again, the project would take less than a month to build and finish.  We could pick beginner type plans off of any of the Free Plan sites on Al Gore's Internet.

Contest for the RS2E Type Class sanders:

Project would be a 90 day time frame, and increase in difficulty.  Youngster ages 10- 13  6 winners and they would start in two month intervals.  The contestents would have to register for the contest they wish to compete in.

Contest for the RO series:

Project would be an 180 day time frame, and again increase in difficulty.  Youngsters from 13-18 (but still in high-school).  We would run a contest that would start June 1 and vote Dec. 31 Then have a contest start January 1 and vote May 31.

Just some thoughts.  I think it is great to get the children that mean so much to us involved in a hobby we all have a passion for (or at least that is what my perception of those contributing on the FOG.)

Timmy C

Finally, a category I could compete in:

"Best example of using the wrong tools for a project, taking the most ridiculous amount of time."


John

John, John, I dare you to enter that competition against me. I am afraid I would destroy you.   Fred

Matthew, I totally agree that the complexity of my proposal would be tenuous.  I realize that we strive to be paperless, however, perhaps there needs to be a form...acknowlegement / confirmation, etc. 

Perhaps there are those who would wish to contribute /volunteer on a "Tool Contest" board of directors/committee ? 

I agree, it could get pretty hectic....but it certainly is doable!

Timmy

Hi,

   This would help prevent having too few entries in each category.    Besides if they were all in one month that would be a lot of prizes to come up with.

Seth

I like the idea of having a different catagory each month.  Although that will not get people to post thier projects which is Matthew's objective.

jonny,
What you're saying about the time period for nominations is covered in the fact that any project submitted at any time can be considered in the contest.  I made that change based on nickao's point about people holding back on submitting.  Now that I have thought about the "open" deadline, I see many other benefits to it, so thanks to nickao for challenging me with that issue!

OK, it seems we have a lot of support for rotating contest subjects.  That's great.  Because of the open-deadlines concept, a rotating schedule works even better.  We could have a schedule like this, for example...

• May 2008: Projects (including adult/child projects)
• June 2008: Jigs and Inventions
• July 2008: How-To
• August 2008: Projects

...And so on from there.

People can continue submitting projects and jigs at any time.  That will also allow a good number of entries to build up in between.

One last question needs to be addressed: choosing winners.  I've mentioned using polls, but that can be confusing, difficult to manage, and often gets too few responses.  The other way to do it is to have judges.  I've received e-mails from several members offering to be judges.  That sounds better than a poll.  We could have a panel of three to five judges.  They would all be respected members of the forum.  We'd work out a way to come up with winners each month.  The judge panel could rotate each month, or it could remain the same.  For example, the winner of the previous month's contest could become a judge the next month (of course, judges would not be eligible to compete).

I think this is moving in a good direction.  It may seem confusing now, as we have this messy debate, but I have confidence that in the end we'll come up with a terrific contest system.

Matthew

Timmy C., I love your idea and think that it adds so much to this board. Putting your proposed projects in conjunction with FestoolUSA's/Matthew's and we have a marvelous opportunity to see not only the various and sundry ways that the Festool tools can be used but the beauty of parents and children working together as maybe they have never been able to before. What a great set of ideas and what a marvelous place to have it happen. Fred

Matthew,

Has Festool USA stated how long they plan on supporting the contest?  I think it's great that they have generously supplied the prizes and that you have agreed to spend the time and effort on the contest.  Thank you both!

I'm still concerned about how the projects will be judged.  A beginner who just owns one Festool and has a limited budget would be at a disadvantage to the pro who owns a dozen Festools and builds on the client's dime.  Also, many hobbyist build fewer projects a year - hence fewer projects to enter.  I know it would be difficult for me to vote for a simple bread box over an elaborate project build flawlessly out of exotic woods.

And to John, as a side note, while I'm glad (and maybe a little jealous) that most members can afford to buy any Festool they want, this is not the case with all members. Until I get a few more debts paid off, I'm doing good to buy a tool a year and welcome the chance to be able to add to my tool collection a little earlier than planned.

Tom.

Tom, I do understand that it's not the case with all members, which is why I said MOST. And it does seem to me that MOST around here somehow find a way to get the particular Festools they REALLY want or need.

As for me, I'm realistic enough about my abilities not to count too heavily on winning contests to build my Festool collection, I've been financing that by selling my wife's stuff anyway.  After seeing the MFK700 and OF2200, I'm wondering if she'd notice if her car was missing, which would also end the fight over use of the garage. That would be a win/win (with of course both wins in my column).


John

Well, since I can't enter (as I'm in the UK), I'd be happy to be a judge for the competition. Maybe you could find a whole panel of NINA judges? Christian A. and Eli spring instantly to mind!

  Well, since one could argue that my suggestions for judging criteria is an attempt to sway the contest towards the type of information sharing I've already done here on FOG. So, I'd be willing to remove myself from the contest and be a judge, what do you guys think?

  I'd like to have time to start a thread in the photography section, "Taking better pictures for beginners". With the idea of helping people who don't have experience taking pictures for the Internet, so members can improve their picture taking skills for the contest. Not professional stuff, but ideas to get better results with inexpensive cameras.

As for me, I'm realistic enough about my abilities not to count too heavily on winning contests to build my Festool collection, I've been financing that by selling my wife's stuff anyway.  After seeing the MFK700 and OF2200, I'm wondering if she'd notice if her car was missing, which would also end the fight over use of the garage. That would be a win/win (with of course both wins in my column).


John


[/quote]

John, I like your attitude but wonder about your direction? I mean, heck yeah, I am getting the MFK700 and probably the OF2200 but what about the Kapex man?? I do understand that you may need to step it up and sell your wife rather than her stuff but man up!!!! Fred

Fred, her car is pretty nice, so there should be enough for the Kapex too. But I'll have to be sure to set aside something to get her a bicycle, without her car she'll need SOME way to get around. I'll even move my woodworking equipment some to create a little spot for it in the garage.

Sometimes I'm just so thoughtful. 


John

Everyone,
For those of you concerned about fairness, let me emphasize again that this is meant to be a friendly thing.
It's meant to inspire people to try new techniques...
A way to show you what you can do with these tools...
A way to get people to put more description and more photos in their project postings.

In my mind, the contest is meant to be a natural extension of the existing projects area, just adding a new dimension to members' efforts there.  The contest is no more unfair than the "Member Projects" board itself.

I've edited the contest description in the first post of this discussion to reflect some additional details about the nature of the contest.

I've given a lot of thought to the issue of judges versus polls, and I have decided against polls (they tend to get too few responses).  I like the idea of judges, but I don't want to exclude the general forum community from the decision.  So, here's what I came up with: each month, we'll start a new discussion in the "Tool Contests" area, where members can say what their favorite project is, and why it's their favorite.  You can name more than one.  The point is to offer your views about what makes a great project, and also what makes a great forum post about a project.  The judge(s) will take into consideration everything members are saying, then, at the end of the month, announce a winner.

Matthew

Brice,
Thanks for the feedback!  I've been trying to take into account what people are saying in this discussion.  A hybrid system of judging and open discussion seems to be the best solution.  It will allow people to weigh in, and involve the community, but also be decisive!

A couple of other quick points:

• Since this contest will run every month, there are opportunities for many people to win.
• In the contest description in the first post of this discussion, I added a point for members who do not wish to enter their projects in the contest.

Matthew

Last night I had thought whilst talking to another FOG member on the phone.  That pertains to Schools.  Here in Lincoln, Lincoln East High School entered a contest at the IWF in Atlanta.  They won an ETS 125 and a midi.  Since there are members all over the country, and there was a thread some time ago regarding "...high school shop..."  Let me throw that into the mix.  I think FOG members COULD poll something like that; at least the 20-25% that post regularly.  That would be a pretty good sample size.  FJ would love to donate a TS 55 (Safety in cutting panels) to get rid of those Radial arm saws.

T

Matthew,

         I have been on the fence about wether or not this is a good idea or will work out well.  I definitely like the idea (actually I always have liked the idea), and I think you are beginning to get this dialed in so that it will work.



Seth


                   FIVE

Eiji F chose to call his recent post "Eiji's Contest Entry," but anything posted in the "Member Projects" board is automatically entered in the contest.  Members can post any project they want in that section, and can include any details they want.  Whether it wins the contest or not...who knows?
Matthew

Nickao,
You know, when you do this stuff for a living its hard to find the time to stop and take pictures. You usually get caught up in the project and are busy working.

Mirko

Nick, I very much agree with you on the need for ongoing pictures as a project is being built. My guess is that we will also have many people submitting projects that are already done with their Festools and may not have progress shots. So the upshot, IMHO, is that we are going to have a combination of both ongoing and just final pics.

Timmy, I love the idea of getting local high schools involved either as receipients of a prize or submitting projects as well. That would be a great way to get our younger generation involved and excited. Just seems like maybe a logistic nightmare. I think more input is needed, eh?  Fred

Then I will just say it. How do we know Festools were used in the project.

Before anyone takes offense let me tell you I received horrible emails form  people on THIS  forum( I now understand why people do not want their emails in their profiles).So don't go telling me everyone here is perfect. If I can get emails  like that making me never want to post, I know there are people here that are going point blank lie and cheat.

I am sorry, its how I feel and the last weekend has just shown me that this is a forum, like any other forum. People will take every inch and there are always some less desirable people on the forum. Obviously to more than one person I am  one of them.

If you do not have pics of the Festools in action they should not be allowed. Doesn't this make the fairest playing field. And yes a lot of old projects would not be able to go in. I say so what.

Nickao

Again, people are free to post their projects any way they want in the "Member Projects" section, with or without details.  The "Member Projects" board will continue just as it always has.  The way I'm setting this up, you are not officially "entering" the contest.  You're just posting projects as you always have.  If your project also has the details required to win the contest, well, even better!  But you don't have to change anything if you don't want to.
Matthew

Any projects posted in the "Member Projects" board will be entered automatically, so right now there should not be a need to create special categories.  In the future, I might be able to put together additional contests for specific types of projects.  But for now, let's just say that any project posted in the "Member Project" board is entered.


Thanks Greg.  Sounds like it's you, jonny, and me.  Anyone else want to be a judge?

Matthew

Actually, I think you'd be a good judge!  I never said you have a narrow view of how contest winners should be viewed.  I think your view is right on, as far as contest winners goes.  My point was that we don't need to say who is "allowed" or "not allowed" to enter the contest, since entries are simply lifted from the "Member Projects" board.  If a project qualifies for the contest, that's great.  If not, that's fine too.

So, do you want to be a judge?

Matthew

Yes, I absolutely would love to be a judge!

I am the one who said I have a more narrow view, I did not want to put that on anyone else. You really are on opened minded person Matthew and thats why people like this forum!

Nickao

Nick, I couldn't agree more. I think members should look at this as tough challenge, putting together a great thread is not easy. Adding pictures, SketchUp models, video, detailed descriptions of the build and throw in a little how-to info is a good way to get started. I really feel like members should have to earn the prize!

Matthew, if you want another judge, I'd happy to do it.

I think Brice pretty much has what he is looking for in a winner among a few of his requirements stated below coincide with many of mine: pictures, SketchUp models, video, detailed descriptions of the build and throw in a little how-to info is a good way to get started. I really feel like members should have to earn the prize

Timmy I once tried to donate my time and tools to the school here in town. I also offered to help the city with its park structures using  highshool kids to do the work and teach them about tools and safety while doing community service. I even asked the pastor at the church if anyone need help with a project and I would use kids to help in that too.

I was shot down on all accounts. For some reason the schools and other organizations are just paying tradesman, but do not want to encourage any of the trades. I was told either there were insurance concerns or they just did not have time for another project.

It is frustrating that so many adults do not consider working with your hands a benefit to the kids. I think it is just as important as any music program, which they constantly battle to keep here.

Nickao

I'm fine with that.  My only requirement is that somehow the entries appear in the forum.
Matthew

Well, at least a description of how project was designed and built. I remember
that large conference table project by Jerry Work who provided lots of detail
(with pics) on how it was built. That seems a very good example of what
a description could be from a professional (or so),

I'm glad we are getting the details narrowed down for this contest.  I think the five judges are good choices.  Would Christian or Shane be interested in being a part of the judging as they are supplying the tools to the winners?

I like Brice's idea of setting up something in the photography section on posting pictures for beginners.  I've done many projects but have never tried to post a picture.

John, I realize you said MOST members can buy the tools they want.  I just wanted to point out that there are at least of couple of us that can't.  Of course, I didn't consider selling my wife's stuff.  Hmmm,  I'll have to take a look around the house later.

Nick, glad to see you are posting again and going to be one of the judges. 

Tom.

Tom, I'm happy with the way things are going too. It's almost a certainty that there will some disagreement over a winner at some point. I was concerned that would be a heavy burden on just one judge, or even two. The larger the panel of judges, the more the onus is spread around. And yes, the judges so far seem like great choices, five very different personalities.




I've been there many times myself, Tom. Building a good tool collection is a lifetime endeavor, which is obviously easier during the good times than the bad. Buy the best when you can, take good care of it, and eventually you'll have the collection you want. It doesn't have to be done in a hurry (maybe a little faster if you're as old as I am). Many of my favorite tools I have had for nearly thirty years.

Of course, winning a few tools in contests wouldn't hurt either. 



John