Author Topic: PayPal Friends and Family  (Read 3293 times)

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Offline caseman

  • Posts: 48
PayPal Friends and Family
« on: October 03, 2015, 04:27 PM »
I see classifieds past and present that accept PayPal Friends and Family for goods sold.  As a small business owner and I'm on several non woodworking forums where goods are bought and sold, the FOG is the only group or forum with classified ads that use this payment method which is an illegal method of avoiding the 3% fee.  I have made one purchase on the group and was quite uncomfortable doing so.  All other groups either add the fee, buyer or seller eats it or the price is increased by the fee amount.
What gives with this and why is it allowed and not addressed by the moderators?
Don

Offline jmac80

  • Posts: 312
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 04:31 PM »
Festoolians are exempt as festool products are so expensive  [big grin]
James

Offline caseman

  • Posts: 48
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 04:35 PM »
We wish.

Offline Wuffles

  • Posts: 1313
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 04:38 PM »
[...]which is an illegal method of avoiding the 3% fee.  I have made one purchase on the group and was quite uncomfortable doing so.[...]

Seems to me you broke the law if that's what you believe is the law. How do you feel now?

To the rest of the population of the planet, how do we feel putting one over on PayPal? Who else has been burned by PayPal's inability to force sellers or buyers to adhere to rules after 30 days? Who else has been ripped off by PayPal and their pathetic sellers/buyers protection?

Great huh?

Tool list updated to reflect knowledge :: hammer, screwdriver, one pozi bit, and another bigger hammer.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5709
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 04:49 PM »
which is an illegal method of avoiding the 3% fee. 

If it is illegal, why is it possible in the first place?

What gives with this and why is it allowed and not addressed by the moderators?

Perhaps because they are not the paypal police and have no affiliation with paypal whatsoever? This is a Festool site. How people pay for their own dealings is their own business. Why do you care anyway?

Paypal is about the dumbest system for online payments I know about anyway. I can't fathom why america is so enamoured with it. They must be happy to pay a fee for every transaction they make. But a simple and free bank transaction is out of the question. Hmmm......

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3664
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 05:00 PM »
Frankly, I feel less incensed by skirting PayPal's rules than I am by coin-changers that charge anywhere upwards from 10.9% just to turn loose change into bills or a debit card.  I get especially outraged when it's banks that do this, even for customers. 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline caseman

  • Posts: 48
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2015, 05:06 PM »
Well, to all.  It's the same as a credit card fee.  You cannot go to a store and negate the fee by claiming to be family.  It's simply illegal. 

I posted to 'General Friendly Chat' but I can see from at least one reply it's anything but that.

I can assure you other groups do not try to save a few bucks by trying to do an end around on the system.  I think it's referred to as honesty.  Apparently not applicable.

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2015, 06:27 PM »
Well, to all.  It's the same as a credit card fee.  You cannot go to a store and negate the fee by claiming to be family.  It's simply illegal. 

I posted to 'General Friendly Chat' but I can see from at least one reply it's anything but that.

I can assure you other groups do not try to save a few bucks by trying to do an end around on the system.  I think it's referred to as honesty.  Apparently not applicable.

There is no credit card fee that most folks are aware of.  It is rolled into the cost of the products you buy at said store.  I work with PayPal and can tell you that most people that work on the money making side of the business don't really feel that this is "illegal".  Friends and Family was setup as a way to be competition with Western Union and other wire transfer businesses that charge significant amounts of money to get money from one family member to another.  PP (soon after purchased by eBay) then kept this line to help garner and retain business from that side of the business.

If you feel morally wrong from doing it... then simply don't do it.  If you live in a state that Amazon doesn't charge sales tax and you feel guilty, then either stop buying from Amazon or pay the sales tax on your year end taxes.

You said you are a small business owner... that is the difference.  If a customer is asking you to sell goods and they pay you via the F&F method... then i completely agree with you.  It is wrong.  If you don't feel comfortable telling them that the PP payment requires to use normal methods, then tell them they can use a credit card.  if they don't to do that, then maybe they aren't worth doing business with!!

cheers.  Bryan.

(one business owner to another) ;^)

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2015, 06:30 PM »
    The transactions that are made for items in the Classified section are the responsibility  of the buyer and seller.

      Here is the stickied link to the classifieds board info.  http://festoolownersgroup.com/classifieds/about-classified-ads/

    In short Festool , Festool employees, and the moderators will not get involved with these private transactions.

Seth

Offline teocaf

  • Posts: 598
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2015, 06:49 PM »
@caseman
It's a paypal feature and there's nothing illegal about it.  paypal collects the fee EITHER way, with a few exceptions that are set by Paypal.  Example 1:  if you're the seller and accept 'regular' paypal transaction you pay the fee out of your receivables.  Example 2: if you're the seller and insist on 'friends and family' payment, then the buyer pays the fee to paypal for the convenience of using paypal, or because they want the product and not burden the buyer with the expense. How one goes about is has more to do with how motivated a seller is, etc.  This is just a simplified explanation, because there are a whole lot of variations on the fees, the type of paypal accounts, business or personal, etc,etc.  When they introduced paypal mobile, i believe they waived some fees for a while to promote it.  To look at what's available currently it's very easy to look it all up on the paypal fee page.  Also this F&F practice is not only being conducted here--it's fairly common on other forum classifieds and becoming more so as more people find out about this relatively new feature.  Once you understand how it works it's actually easier to specify F&F than go into all the fine print and percentage specifying in your ads like: "asking 350 unless you're paying PP then add 3%, unless you're my brother-in-law, in which case add 12% and a case of beer...

@Alex
Paypal makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons and that's why it's becoming such a standard globally.  For example, if some joe schmoe wants to hang out in his underwear in his mom's basement and conduct a global business selling widgets or services or whatever, he can do that and pay per transaction rather than the old way of setting up all kinds of banking and credit card acceptance memberships.   You can also get your money quicker rather than waiting on a check to come to you in the mail.  It also acts as a go between so that you have some protection from unscrupulous buyers or sellers.  Paypal still needs to work on some areas, and  there are now all kinds of competing systems for these type of services.  You still have to read the fine print to see what's the most beneficial for what you want to do, because for others, who have all kinds of time on their hands, a service such a paypal is not needed or wanted.  In some ways it's what discount brokerages are doing for someone that wants to buy ten shares of a stock at 2 in the morning--you just pay a fairly small fee for the transaction rather than buy a seat on some board exchange or pay a broker.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 07:10 PM by teocaf »

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6625
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2015, 06:53 PM »
Your just being Busy body.

If you don't like it don't use it.

Get over it.
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Offline caseman

  • Posts: 48
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2015, 07:04 PM »
No not being a busy body, just pointing out an illegal practice used on this group.  Again, so much for the General Friendly Chat section with the personal attacks.  If you don't pay the fee you are circumventing the system.  PayPal is the same as a credit card transaction.  That's why there is a 3% fee, just like credit card.  I knew better that to bring up the subject.  This is the last I'll comment. 

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5709
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2015, 07:09 PM »
Paypal makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons and that's why it's becoming such a standard globally.  For example, if some joe schmoe wants to hang out in his underwear in his mom's basement and conduct a global business selling widgets or services or whatever, he can do that and pay per transaction rather than the old way of setting up all kinds of banking and credit card acceptance memberships.   You can also get your money quicker rather than waiting on a check to come to you in the mail.  It also acts as a go between so that you have some protection from unscrupulous buyers or sellers.  Paypal still needs to work on some areas, and  there are now all kinds of competing systems for these type of services.  You still have to read the fine print to see what's the most beneficial for what you want to do, because for others, who have all kinds of time on their hands, a service such a paypal is not needed or wanted.  In some ways it's what discount brokerages are doing for someone that wants to buy ten shares of a stock at 2 in the morning--you just pay a fairly small fee for the transaction rather than buy a seat on some board exchange or pay a broker.

Maybe check out IBAN.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3664
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2015, 07:12 PM »
This is the last I'll comment.

Thank you.
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5709
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2015, 07:22 PM »
No not being a busy body, just pointing out an illegal practice used on this group.  Again, so much for the General Friendly Chat

You think pointing out illegal practices is a proper subject for the General Friendly Chat section? Seriously, what do you expect?  [unsure]

But I still don't understand why using PayPal Friends and Family is illegal, but still possible. You'd think that if this is an option from PayPal, they'd have their own way of dealing with improper use?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 07:26 PM by Alex »

Offline teocaf

  • Posts: 598
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2015, 07:33 PM »
Maybe check out IBAN.

How does an international standardized system setup to avoid mixups between bank accounts help you in processing a sale of secondhand tools that you just conducted on eBay with a buyer who wants to use his credit card?

Offline Jak147

  • Posts: 113
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2015, 07:40 PM »
This is a friendly forum, we are even posting in the general friendly chat! There fore everyone here is friends.
I believe the clue is in the title PayPal friends and family!!

Offline Dogberryjr

  • Posts: 116
Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2015, 07:43 PM »
I don't mean to pile on here, but I can't see how duping Paypal is illegal, unless you are willing to really stretch and bend some definition of fraud.  It is outside of the agreement you accepted when you signed up for Paypal, and as others have said, that's between the user and Paypal.

Why I am not willing to go the "friends and family" route has more to do with wishing to preserve all my rights should a deal go bad.  You can be assured that eBay/Paypal will laugh in your face should you come to them with a complaint about a purchase made outside their user agreement.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: PayPal Friends and Family
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2015, 07:44 PM »
The Forum does not moderate the classified area.

Before this ends up being another one of "those" threads I am locking it.

Peter Halle - Moderator