Author Topic: Really really..... Whaaaaat  (Read 4204 times)

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Offline jmbfestool

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Really really..... Whaaaaat
« on: November 24, 2015, 02:56 PM »
It's done and dusted no going back but I thought I would bring it up on fog because I am shocked.

How some of our building inspectors vary so much.  Some can be so over the top and yet others don't seem care at all.

I went to a job today all I had planned on doing is going round and finishing of the doors I hung. Just putting handles on catches etc  job done. 

Well while I was on this job the plasterer was moaning about couple frames the builder fitted they had a massive bow in them
So I checked all the frames and decided they all need sorting and then I started looking at the studding I ended up taking some of it down and rebuilding and fixing it studding.

Then while doing the studding I couldn't  help but look at the floor joists.

I informed the client of my concerns about the joists.

Long story short client takes my advice and gets the building inspector.

Building inspector says it's okay you  can get away with it you gotta have some tolerance.  The black waste pipe is fine (it's in the middle of the joist span by the way and span is 3.1m and joists are 150mmn).  The pipes near wall side he said I would maybe like to see some Little support.
  He was happy with just having the 3x2 which you can see screwed below the joist removed and just having 1  going across the joists going up to the studd wall and onto the brick wall act as a bearing just bellow all the pipes near the wall side.

I Know we are only talking 3 joists because the rest is supported by studding but even so.
the room is only 3x 2.4m big how can you get it so wrong.  Upstairs is going to be bathroom the unsupported area is just having a sink toilet and tiles. So not a lot of weight but I still rather it be solid so it reduced the risk of tiles cracking.

Oh well.... Let me know what you lot think

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Offline jimbouk

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2015, 03:14 PM »
Haha that's a beaut!
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Online CrazyLarry

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2015, 03:24 PM »
I'm guessing the sparks has come in after the plumber and could have perhaps drilled through a good 6" further from the waste pipe, just to lessen the impact, but you're right the real issue is the swiss cheese by the wall! Good job he only had a drill with him imagine if the plumber had a saw!!! :)

Offline SMJoinery

  • Posts: 528
Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 03:44 PM »
Why so many push fit pipes!
Normally a main runs round with tails off it where required.
This is one of the many issues he public has with our industry in the UK.
Any time served tradesman knows this is wrong, they know what should have been done yet completely let standards and common sense drop just to do their bit that day as easy as they can.

I can't believe the building inspector said it was ok, I would have thought this was a rip out and redo!

On a similar thread we had a project this week and one of the jobs was take out existing double Doorset and replace with new.
Standards were terrible looking so started on Monday taking out old doors, finishes and removing frame. Removes all fixings in order to slip out, gets one corner away from top of frame and could see brick ends. Puts it all back in and slips back other side and sure enough brick ends and no lintel evident!
Four of our biggest jobs in the last 12 months have been finishing off projects that have been left in various states of incomplete, incapable, insolvent or insane by "bulders"

No wonder the industry gets a bad name.
 :'(

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6585
Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 04:08 PM »
I'm guessing the sparks has come in after the plumber and could have perhaps drilled through a good 6" further from the waste pipe, just to lessen the impact, but you're right the real issue is the swiss cheese by the wall! Good job he only had a drill with him imagine if the plumber had a saw!!! :)

Yea.

Thing is the waste pipe didn't need to go through it could have gone down the bay where it comes down from. I don't know why he decided to go down the next bay having to drill through.

I know he wants a fall but he's drilled very close to the top with the waste and the hole is much larger than the pipe think it's about 50mm hole. The joists are only 150mm so it's a third so it's over the limit allowed. On top of that it's pretty much half way into the room worse place to do this.

The clients have their own plumber and the builder has his.
The builders plumber did the black waste pipe.
The clients plumber did the Swiss cheese bit on the wall side.
The builder is the one who stuck 150mm joists in even though the client told me he did question the size of joists. He thought they needed to be bigger.

So three different trades people all failed on this tiny little extension.  I would hate to see a large extension by these people.
I personally would have used 175mm to 200mm joists on a 3m span. This allows for pipes and cables and waste pipes.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 04:28 PM »
Why so many push fit pipes!
Normally a main runs round with tails off it where required.
This is one of the many issues he public has with our industry in the UK.
Any time served tradesman knows this is wrong, they know what should have been done yet completely let standards and common sense drop just to do their bit that day as easy as they can.

I can't believe the building inspector said it was ok, I would have thought this was a rip out and redo!

On a similar thread we had a project this week and one of the jobs was take out existing double Doorset and replace with new.
Standards were terrible looking so started on Monday taking out old doors, finishes and removing frame. Removes all fixings in order to slip out, gets one corner away from top of frame and could see brick ends. Puts it all back in and slips back other side and sure enough brick ends and no lintel evident!
Four of our biggest jobs in the last 12 months have been finishing off projects that have been left in various states of incomplete, incapable, insolvent or insane by "bulders"

No wonder the industry gets a bad name.
 :'(

Trust me I was shocked by the building inspector.  He was so lacks about  it. I think if the client didn't keep asking me if I was happy with the suggestions being made by the plaster and building inspector I recon it would have been left with no extra timber support. Although I feel a 75x45 mm timber laying flat isn't really classed as a support.........?

The client knew I wasn't to happy with the suggestions being made and wanted me to step up I think but I felt I was being made to look like I was fussing over nothing. Especially by the plasterer he kept saying I knew it was perfectly fine.  Thing is all he wanted was to plasterboard the ceiling but he was put on hold until building inspector had been.  So he was only bothered about not being able to get on.

I know personally it's very unlikely the floor is going to fall through but it's not the point is it.
Should be done right and with all the frames and studding and few other things done crap I thought it ain't on really.

I don't know.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 04:31 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline jimbouk

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 04:56 PM »
Should have used solid web or I joist. Easier for everyone
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Offline richy3333

  • Posts: 198
Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2015, 04:58 PM »
Shocking but not unusual anymore. Doesn't meet Building Regs (as you point out).

When our house was signed off by BC they didn't even notice a wall was missing from the original plans!

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2015, 05:05 PM »
Should have used solid web or I joist. Easier for everyone

Yeah true.

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Offline jools

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2015, 05:11 PM »
This would not get passed by the three building inspectors who work in my area [eek]. All of them make regular inspections and would have picked it up. Why so many pipes? Heating flow and return, hot and mains but six? 50mm hole in 150mm joist is a definite no no
Perhaps we should have a building horror thread [big grin]
In twenty odd years I've seen some stuff that ranges from the down right dangerous ( missing lintels, unsupported chimney stacks) to the laughable ( toilet roll cavity closers, uphill soil pipe) etc etc. For those of us who take pride in our trades it's a constant battle to retain reputations when surrounded by muppets.
It started with one little sander

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2015, 05:33 PM »
This would not get passed by the three building inspectors who work in my area [eek]. All of them make regular inspections and would have picked it up. Why so many pipes? Heating flow and return, hot and mains but six? 50mm hole in 150mm joist is a definite no no
Perhaps we should have a building horror thread [big grin]
In twenty odd years I've seen some stuff that ranges from the down right dangerous ( missing lintels, unsupported chimney stacks) to the laughable ( toilet roll cavity closers, uphill soil pipe) etc etc. For those of us who take pride in our trades it's a constant battle to retain reputations when surrounded by muppets.

I agree building inspectors on my jobs would have failed it also. This is a private company building inspector the builder uses. I wonder why he uses them.

I have been on a job before where the builder (brick layer) did all the roofs on this building it had 3 different roofs.  One roof i was surprised the walls weren't seperating yet.
The other I honestly wouldn't be surprised the large, very low pitch lean to roof wouldn't fall in on a heavy winters day when a lot of snow might build up.  It had a large seat cut not birds mouth it was only sitting on the wall plate by 2inch at the tip. Might as well been 2x2 not 9x2

No offence to brick layers but most the time it's the bricks layers who cause the problems I have found.  They think they can become builders but don't have much of an idea. They then often decide roofing and studding and fitting door frames is dead easy and so decide to do it them selfs. 
Yet almost 100% of the time I have to adjust studding and door frames.
 Their standards are often lower so they tend to attract lower standard trades men like plumbers and electricians. So the entire job just becomes a bodge.

Hence why I personally only work with this one brick layer builder. He's like a joiner in the way he works to millimetres and stays on the job start to finish keeping an eye on all the trades men making sure it's done spot on.  I like that I know I can turn up and his walls are bang on his wall plates are spot on I never have to check although he makes me check.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 02:39 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline Doug S

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2015, 05:48 PM »
The local authority inspectors round here are great but some of the private ones have a bad reputation, they will pass things off without even seeing it.

Everything should be done by the book then it's black and white, once you get grey areas nobody knows where they are.

Doug

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2583
Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2015, 06:13 PM »
One of the best building inspectors I have known, seen here making a 'daily' inspection in 2012.




When I was the owner builder constructing this house the Private Inspector frequently visited, so when it came to the final inspection there were only a few and easily rectified issues. I know he would have not let the pipe issue shown here by JmbFestool go buy.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 06:26 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline jools

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2015, 06:26 PM »
I work as a two man team from start to finish now on refurbishments with trusted trades for plumbing heating, Sparks, ground works and bricks. As the next trade in so to speak following yourself is a lot better than the single trade site work I used to do. New build was the pits!
Our inspectors don't always visit  my work either as we often e mail pictures of work before we cover it up. I am a bit dubious about these private inspectors too and question where the "loyalty" would lie.
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Offline Holzhacker

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2015, 07:21 PM »
I'd write the crap out of that as non-compliant. Unlikely to meet IRC Code requirements for hole placement or spacing even under the most liberal interpretation. Besides the holes in the 1st pic there is no air gap between the wood joist and masonry wall. If that is an outside wall it could be a joist end rot probably over the long term. Wood & brick unlikely to be much of a problem though. Much more of an issue with CMU & engineered wood.
The inspector probably didn't want to make waves and that's pathetic.
One of the key issues I run into frequently in this type of situation is that people fail to understand that this is NOT just a collapse concern. Will the joists break in that area and the floors collapse? Probably not. On the other hand we don't know if they are going to put a baby grand on top of that area, if that is the living room dance space, or if that's where the viking commercial stove goes.
Beyond any collapse concerns, are the day to day living issues that owners/buyers don't think about, builders don't want to talk about and real estate agents pretend don't exist.
From my experience those types of floor areas tend to have a bit more movement, bounce and eventual cracks than if the holes had been done properly. What this ends up meaning is that if its under a bathroom the floor tiles tend to crack or disbond, if the ceiling is drywalled it tends to crack repeatedly even though the homeowner has re-taped the seam 5 times, etc.
I hate to say it but I end up dealing with more mediocre inspectors than good ones. Beyond that though, a good GC should not have allowed that.
The homeowner will end up paying in a few years as is often the case
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline Kev

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 11:44 PM »
It going to be messy when that lot springs a leak!

FWIW I find most plumbers to be real hacks. Only ever met a couple I'd respect.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6585
Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2015, 03:11 AM »
I'd write the crap out of that as non-compliant. Unlikely to meet IRC Code requirements for hole placement or spacing even under the most liberal interpretation. Besides the holes in the 1st pic there is no air gap between the wood joist and masonry wall. If that is an outside wall it could be a joist end rot probably over the long term. Wood & brick unlikely to be much of a problem though. Much more of an issue with CMU & engineered wood.
The inspector probably didn't want to make waves and that's pathetic.
One of the key issues I run into frequently in this type of situation is that people fail to understand that this is NOT just a collapse concern. Will the joists break in that area and the floors collapse? Probably not. On the other hand we don't know if they are going to put a baby grand on top of that area, if that is the living room dance space, or if that's where the viking commercial stove goes.
Beyond any collapse concerns, are the day to day living issues that owners/buyers don't think about, builders don't want to talk about and real estate agents pretend don't exist.
From my experience those types of floor areas tend to have a bit more movement, bounce and eventual cracks than if the holes had been done properly. What this ends up meaning is that if its under a bathroom the floor tiles tend to crack or disbond, if the ceiling is drywalled it tends to crack repeatedly even though the homeowner has re-taped the seam 5 times, etc.
I hate to say it but I end up dealing with more mediocre inspectors than good ones. Beyond that though, a good GC should not have allowed that.
The homeowner will end up paying in a few years as is often the case

Thats was my main worry really.  I don't think the floor will fail because of how small the area is and I did say this to the client.  Its just the tiles I was more concerned about. You want a floor as stiff as possible to avoid tiles cracking and detaching like you said. @Holzhacker

Also I like to think a house is adatable in some way.
So if they ever wanted to remove the studding down stairs this would unsupport the rest of the joist which have the same cheese holes.   I don't think the studding should have been a consideration of being part of the floor structure.  Yes if it was originally designed but if a studding is being considered part of the floor structure it should also have the appropriate amount of timbers in. 

What if upstairs a few years down the line they decided they wanted a bath..... that floor is not sound for a bath unless ket above bellow studding. 

Just no need.

On subject of crap jobs  the studding is another ...... This is another one I wasn't happy with.
I wanted to pull the entire studding  down the builder put up but it had all cables and pipes in.
So I just made good what I could

However the studding is sitting directly on the concerte floor......  It's new concrete floor done by the builder when he did the extension. 4inches lower than the existing house.

Yet.... the studdingg is already in place......  So he's going to screed the studding in.
On top of that in places  he only had a single sole plate and double in others. Not sure why the inconsistency.  Well I added noggins to make it triple so at least the plaster board had timber because the screed would swallow the first two. 
No skirting all tiles in the downstairs bathroom. So I thought it was important to make sure plasterboard was supported well.

Still who screeds studding into the floor? 

It would be easier screed a square room.... No?
If it had under flooring heating going in which it isn't having then a couple brick course should have been layed first then screed then studd.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2015, 03:25 AM »
I work as a two man team from start to finish now on refurbishments with trusted trades for plumbing heating, Sparks, ground works and bricks. As the next trade in so to speak following yourself is a lot better than the single trade site work I used to do. New build was the pits!
Our inspectors don't always visit  my work either as we often e mail pictures of work before we cover it up. I am a bit dubious about these private inspectors too and question where the "loyalty" would lie.

I fully agree with you about the loyalty part. @jools
I think this job is a good example
Client called building inspector they told the client they can only get some one to come out fallowing day.
Builder is contacted by plasterer because he can't carry on untill it's sorted
Builder said he already had a inspector coming out. For what we don't know because it would have all been boarded had it not been for me. 
Well suddenly a building inspector turned up out of the blue same day.

While discussing the client said we can have all the pipes taken out and have them running bellow the joists and can the joists be repaired( I had mentioned this to the client before hand).  The building inspector turned to me assuming I was the plumber and said are you happy with doing that..... I said well doesn't bother me i ain't a plumber. I think the pipes should have always ran bellow especially seen as 3x2 has been screwed onto the bottom of the joists any way so could have ran inline with the 3x2.
That's when he said well you gotta have some tolerance I'm sure we could think of something else leaving the pipes in place.

To me he favoured the builders side and not the clients side.

After that he said anything else I need to look at?? Plasterer said no that's it thanks. Then of he went.   Not being funny but..... Huh?!
Next time a builder inspector comes to a job..... I'll say nothing for you to look at. Cheers for coming.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:43 AM by jmbfestool »
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Online CrazyLarry

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2015, 03:41 AM »
To me he favoured the builders side and not the clients side.

To me this is the key to it all. The BCO should be there, as one of you put it, to make things 'black and white' erring on the side of caution, because the builder comes and goes, the current owner may sell, but at some point someone wants to take that studding down, looks at the rest of the building and says yes, then all manner of stuff can happen. To me that's more the fault of BC not the builder. It's like having a teacher in a playground ignoring bullying, fighting or just about anything else so long as they get paid!

The irony to me is that in many ways good BC makes work easier in the long run, it's easy to do the right thing if everyone else does...

Online Cheese

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2015, 11:35 AM »

Beyond any collapse concerns, are the day to day living issues that owners/buyers don't think about, builders don't want to talk about and real estate agents pretend don't exist.


That's funny.... [thumbs up] and if I may add to your statement, "and some building inspectors overlook or dismiss."  The building inspectors and permit people are not on my Christmas gift list.

Offline ginge

  • Posts: 11
Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2015, 03:27 PM »
Here's one on a similar theme.
This was a house refurb i was last year. All the ceilings were pulled down and internal walls were changing location.
Proper nightmare for plumber/sparks who wanted to get services through.
The fact there are so many unsupported ends was all a bit confusing! The floor above was staying and also had a wall on it so it was simply tacked over and skimmed.



Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Really really..... Whaaaaat
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2015, 03:30 PM »
Nice!! That's looks messy  [eek]
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