Author Topic: This lawsuit takes the cake  (Read 3671 times)

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Offline promark747

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Offline LooseSox

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 11:40 PM »
Honestly I'm suprised that hasn't happened already!

Best one I've heard was just south of where I live. About 10 years ago some idiot decided to jump off a jetty at low tide. Now jumping off of jettys/piers is illegal here. He successfully sued the local council for not having signs warning of the dangers of jumping off after he broke both ankles due to hitting the bottom because of the low tide. Not only did he pocket $680k out of it, his wife was awarded $55k in damages too because he couldn't perform in the bedroom with both legs in plaster!!!

And we wonder why insurance is becoming so expensive lol

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2017, 12:18 AM »
J. R. Menard will spend every penny he has to bury these lawyers. They're screwing with the wrong guy.

Tom


Online Peter Halle

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2017, 03:33 AM »
Am not surprised.  Lowe's had a suit in 2014.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Holmz

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2017, 04:24 AM »
Honestly I'm suprised that hasn't happened already!
...
... his wife was awarded $55k in damages too because he couldn't perform in the bedroom with both legs in plaster!!!
...

 [eek]

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 04:26 AM »
I am not surprised because of course it was a California judge that handed over the 1.6 million in the lowes case.

This is on Menard's, the day the Loews case became public knowledge Menard's should of relabeled. 3 years this has been known and they do nothing? This is NOT Menard's being blindsided and someone will be fired at Menard's.

As much as I disagree with this entire suit once the Loews case happened it became a dumb mislabeling mistake by Menard's. Menard's most likely will just pay.

http://www.hbsdealer.com/article/lowes-ordered-pay-2x4-settlement
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 04:31 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline zapdafish

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 01:42 PM »

thought 2 x 4 meant before drying.

Like buying a steak at a restaurant, its 12 oz before we throw it on the grill but its 9 oz when it gets to the table.
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Offline JimH2

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 02:25 PM »
You what is funny about this case is that just yesterday I noticed a sign next the 2x4's noting the lumbers actual size. I thought it was odd and I had never noticed it before. It must have just been placed there within the last two weeks.

It is cases like this that benefit no one except the lawyers representing the class action "victims". This could all be solved if there were penalties in place for the losing side. The "victims" will get a voucher to spend money at Home Depot and the shareholders and customers eat the cost of the litigation and penalty all for some schmucks that don't know the sizes are nominal.

The next wave will be having to mark every single piece, because from bundle to bundle there can be slight variations in width, especially at the larger widths.

A recent Supreme Court Ruling has made it much more difficult to "court shop", which should curtail some of the class action suits. I know there is a small town in Texas where a lot of class action suits are filed.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:30 PM by JimH2 »

Offline Bob D.

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2017, 02:36 PM »

thought 2 x 4 meant before drying.

Like buying a steak at a restaurant, its 12 oz before we throw it on the grill but its 9 oz when it gets to the table.

I think that is this guys next suit. He's gathering clients now. Watch out McDonalds, Burger King, et al.
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Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2017, 02:53 PM »
Asking $5 million in damages over a $14 item.  Smh, the nerve of some people.
Bryan

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Offline Dogberryjr

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2017, 03:07 PM »
This could all be solved if there were penalties in place for the losing side.

Yes, by all means, make corporations even more powerful. They'll look out for you, they promise.

Offline Pike_101

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2017, 04:22 PM »
I could see a case being made that these stores often sell lumber that does not meet ALSC sizing or grading rules that they are sold as. That seems like a bigger problem to me. The mills supplying the lumber may have some part in that too.

I've seen many 2x4s (1-1/2" x 3-1/2" actual size) that are easily 1/8" undersized in both directions from the big stores, 1" lumber (3/4" actual size) that is less than 11/16", and boards sold with oversized knots, splits, or other major defects as a grade above what they actually are.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 04:33 PM »
Although this case really is all about labeling below is a pdf link of the  history.

It is more complicated as the PDF describes, but basically the full wood sizes started as a rough size after initial milling that did shrink after drying, that still does not get the wood to nominal sizing though, planing does. It was actually the machines that were improved to do milling all the way down to S4S(surface 4 sides) before shipping that created the nominal sizing. This saved in material transportation costs, even 1/8" per piece thickness over time made a huge impact in weight and packing and therefore cost. Labor costs were also reduced,  before this improvement tradesmen individually fit the material parts on site which was no longer needed due to the lumber now all being the same. The first sizing nomenclature stuck as it was simpler communicating the lumber sizes. Do we really want to  communicate please hand me that 3/4" x 7 1/4" piece or just say hand me the 1"x8"?  Communication played a large part  in coming up with the standards we now use as well. No longer did the local carpenters have to customize everything, as we spread out we needed to make talking about the wood sizing simpler. I guess it's not so simple for the people suing.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/miscpub_6409.pdf



« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 04:54 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline demographic

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 04:51 PM »
Meh, not sure about the money involved but really its just not rocket science to give final sizes instead of ex stock sizes and its a lot more useful.
I don't expect it to be absolutely exact and I'm a carpenter by trade so know what to expect but ex stock (Nominal) sizing is a bit naughty my opinion.

Just because its always been that way doesn't make it right.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2017, 05:23 PM »
ummm. This story reminds me of why we should measure twice and cut once!  [big grin]

Offline Holmz

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2017, 06:44 PM »
ummm. This story reminds me of why we should measure twice and cut once!  [big grin]

I am still on the 55$k for 6 weeks of bed work.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 06:54 PM »
Meh, not sure about the money involved but really its just not rocket science to give final sizes instead of ex stock sizes and its a lot more useful.
I don't expect it to be absolutely exact and I'm a carpenter by trade so know what to expect but ex stock (Nominal) sizing is a bit naughty my opinion.

Just because its always been that way doesn't make it right.

First, everything is always about the money, in this case it's historical fact.

Calling out the lumber they way we have for 150 years is right. By saying it's wrong there seems to me to be an implication of fraud in some way. As this lawsuit maintains.

2x4 is simply a definition society approved and personally I want to see stay. An apprentice better not be asking me for a 3/4" x 9 1/4" because Ill toss 5 -1x10's in his face.

Definition - Red of a color at the end of the spectrum next to orange and opposite violet, as of blood, fire, or rubies.

2x4 -Common size of dimensional lumber named for its unprocessed dimensions,measuring 1½ × 3½ inches in practice.

Its nothing more than an accepted nomenclature for sizing. I dont see why the defense would lose a court case. Simply submit the Webster definition, it is what it is. If I were a juror that would be enough for me. I get the proper labeling, but since it's an accepted definition 2x4 should be enough. Isn't it up to the consumer to look up the word, phrase or nomenclature and understand it?

On another note I just went to  Menard's, possibly stores are different, but the sign says 2x4. It doesn't state nor imply it measures 2"x4". Actually, there is a big sign right next to the lumber that states all the nominal sizes with the actual measurements. I don't see how Menard's can lose,  at least not this store. The sign is pretty big that shows the actual sizes.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 07:12 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Online antss

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2017, 06:59 PM »
American's growing ignorance and stupidity will be our downfall.

The price of those 2x4's is pretty much a commodity.   I could perhaps see my way to a discussion of unfair pricing on wood sold by the board foot. In those instances I am being charged for that missing 1/4" in thickness and missing 1/2 " of width.  Sort of.

However , the price is the price is the price.  So whether I'm charged $7 for a board foot of walnut that is really only 99.1875 cubic inches instead of 144    - or -

the list price of walnut is really $9.25 / BF and then some real accurate math is commenced and I'm rung up @ $7 for the 3/4" x 11 1/2" x 11 1/2" board of walnut I take home ................my end cost is still the same for that board. 


This seems like a suit based on ignorance.  And we don't tolerate that as a defense. So.................
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 07:04 PM by antss »

Online antss

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2017, 07:04 PM »
Oh, and perhaps successful suit will result in the country going to the metric system. 

 ::) Then we can all buy 381 x 889's and there will be absolutely no confusion or pricing flim flams.  ::)

yea , right !


Offline Dovetail65

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2017, 07:07 PM »
hehe
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2017, 07:56 PM »
I don't see how anyone could stick this on Lowes, Menards, HD, or any other retailer. They did not come up with the sizing nomenclature they just ordered the stuff. Now if they had proof that these particular retailers were asking for 1-3/8 x 3-3/8 or something less than every other lumber yard across the country is selling that comes from the same mills THEN this case might have some merit.

This is simple abuse of the legal system to make a buck for those lawyers who can't put food in their mouths otherwise.

Deplorable.
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Offline jefm

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 09:00 PM »
Meanwhile, in metric, it's millimeters and is a more reasonably correct number, am I right?
(ignoring of course whatever +- mm tolerance)

I was reading a woodworking book from the UK and plywood dimensions were all whacky mm sizes since they had to cohere with 4x8 feet.

Offline jjowen

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2017, 09:00 PM »
I thought that a scientist would say that a measurement of 2, with zero decimal places, and no tolerance explicitly stated, has a tolerance of -/+ 0.5 and you therefore only knew that the actual length was between 1.5 and 2.5.

If you reported the measurement of 2.0, then you would expect the actual length to be between 1.95 and 2.05.

The way I see it, if the actual width is between 1.5 and 2.5, then stating that the width is 2 is scientifically correct.

But this a consumer law issue, so there may be local laws which explicitly address tolerances of measurements.

 
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Offline Svar

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2017, 09:03 PM »
The way I see it, if the actual width is between 1.5 and 2.5, then stating that the width is 2 is scientifically correct.
Excellent point.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 09:19 PM »
The way I see it, if the actual width is between 1.5 and 2.5, then stating that the width is 2 is scientifically correct.
Excellent point.

Tell this to many woodworkers who demand a tolerance no greater than (fill-in-the-blank) in their tools!

On a more serious note, why do we accept ballpark numbers with lumber, but less so with other commodities like food, gas, etc.?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-whole-foods-overcharges-prices-20150702-story.html

Yesterday, I picked up some lumber paid for as 1 x 5, but as it turned out (based on the bar code on the planks), they were 11/16" x 4-1/2"

While it is true that seasoned woodworkers do know what to expect from a 2 x 4 and whatnot, the system is indeed confusing to new entrants. I suppose woodworkers on the other side of the pond don't have this kind of issue, do they?


Online antss

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2017, 11:41 PM »
^^^ that - 1/16" would tic me off.   [mad]

Not enough for a lawsuit, but it'd get returned and the store put on the do not patronize list.

unless somebody changed the generally accepted industry standard while I wasn't looking -  a 1x whatever is not 11/16" thick.  It's 3/4" .

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2017, 12:12 AM »
And if the actual size ends up being required on the labeling then what about pressure treated ...............  going to have to change that label almost everyday that it sits in the store drying.  [scratch chin]   [2cents]   [bite tongue]   [popcorn]

Ridiculous  !

Seth

Online antss

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Re: This lawsuit takes the cake
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2017, 12:18 AM »
It'll return to the old days when you didn't select your own stuff.  You told a guy at the counter what you wanted, and he wrote a ticket, someone else picked it while you paid the cashier and you just paid whatever the price was.   There was not comparison shopping.

I can remember a few places that didn't sell to "Joe Public" .  No account , no sale ! 

And no visa, mastercard or paypal either.