Author Topic: Timberwolf Tools  (Read 6940 times)

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Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1224
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2018, 05:44 PM »
and NO rail, don't forget that!


@Cheese
@RKA

However, it does come standard with the dust bag, position indicator, and parallel guide fence, all of which you would pay extra for with the corded version.

I have to laugh a little.  The position indicator and parallel guide fence are two things I have never needed.  They could be useful to some occassionally, but I would argue they won't get used often.  The bag is probably useful, especially on a cordless saw.  I've only used it once on my TSC.  But the one item I always use (the track) they don't include.  Just to be clear, I'm not knocking the product, I love my MT55, but the way they package it is strange.  Eliminate the most useful accessory and throw in a few moderately useful accessories??

@Cheese
Another point I would add is Mafell's blades are 1.8mm I think (probably the same for corded and cordless).  And Festool's blades are 2.2mm?  That's a significant difference.  So even if the motors on the cordless saws are on par, Mafell has an edge. 
-Raj

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2018, 07:04 PM »
I've been kind of hoping that this thread would fade away. However, since it hasn't, I now feel duty-bound to pass along a cautionary tale concerning TT and the Mafell home office.

A little over a year ago I came very close to importing an Erika 85 EC. However, when I was unable to get Mafell to state in writing that it is safe to operate a Cuprex motor with "50Hz" stamped on the motor nameplate on a 60Hz system, and when they also refused to comment about whether motors on machines bound for N.A. were somehow different from those sold in Europe, I respectfully changed gears and instead became a Festoolian - opting for the (I think more versatile) standalone 110V-120V/50Hz-60Hz CMS system (TS and OF modules w/sliding table, extensions tables, LA-CS 50/CMS rip fence, etc.).

The other contributing factor was, of course, the appalling 1-year warranty period offered by TT, but more on how that ties in later.

So, if you care to know more, here's how everything played out. Before the idea to import an Erika crossed my mind - and when I was still considering buying from TT - I contacted TT in writing to request more info about the Erika 85's 230V/50Hz motor. You see, I'd done my due diligence and I was concerned by the lack of any sort of definitive statement from Mafell about whether or not it was safe over the long term to power the tool on 50Hz. Obviously, this question has been discussed at length by regular folks in numerous online forums but, with no clear agreement among all of those involved, I wanted some written assurance that the motor wouldn't suffer any negative consequences.

This is when I discovered that TT only offers a 1-year warranty on the Mafell tools it sell, something that flies in the face of the standard 3-year warranty that exists on Mafell products elsewhere in the world. This, when combined with the motor nameplate discrepancy, just seemed odd to me.

So, even though the paltry warranty is what pushed me toward the idea of importing a Erika 85 myself (along with, of course, the massive savings that I could realize thanks to a favorable exchange rate, etc.) there was more to the story.

You see, when I requested clarification on what I saw as a major contradiction - on the one hand TT was fine selling tools with 230V/50Hz motor nameplates accompanied by a paltry 1-year warranty but on the other hand cautioned folks like me from buying direct from Europe - the Director of Operations and the President of TT both went out of their way to scare me away from importing what was clearly (to me at least) the same tool direct from Germany, writing to me:

Quote
"Be very careful when considering sourcing tools directly from Europe. German dealers do not have access to 120V tools, and many of the 230V tools on the gray market only work on European 50Hz frequency. It is extremely expensive to buy a tool from Europe that ultimately doesn’t work and have to send it back (especially an ERIKA which weighs over 100 lbs when fully boxed)."

...and then, bizarrely, choosing to split hairs:

Quote
"There is no such tool as an "Erika 80 EC saw". There is an "Erika 85Ec push-pull saw...."

...followed by dropping the ominous and, I think, very telling:

Quote
"Anyone in North America that purchases an Erika 85Ec...from a Dealer other than Timberwolf Tools is taking a ridiculous risk, I think. You may find that a module or motor intended for sale in Europe or the UK works for awhile in the US or Canada and then stops working. There is no mechanism for warranty repairs if something were to go wrong, however minor. Per our
Contract with Mafell AG, it is not our responsibility to support these machines. As Jeff said in his email, returning a tool of this size and weight to a Dealer is not practical. So unless you are a brilliant "do-ityourselfer" [sic] with both superior mechanical and electrical capabilities, you are stranded with a tool that is not supported."

...followed by the President accusing my "story" of being "unusual" and me of being "suspicious".

Of course, the clear implication of these various statements was that the motors attached to their tools - the tools TT was receiving from Mafell - were somehow different from those on machines elsewhere in the world, something I could find zero proof of. Kind of a statement by omission, if you will.

When I then asked Mafell directly whether motors with "230V/50Hz" nameplates that were attached to tools destined for N.A. were somehow different from their European counterparts, not only did they totally avoid answering my question (which I took to mean that there is nothing different - all motors right 'round the world are the same), they completely failed to provide me with the statement that I'd requested from them; that it is safe to operate a 230V/50Hz Mafell tool on a 60Hz system. To be clear, though I asked simple questions they wholly neglected to provide any meaningful answers.

I even went so far as to point out that, at that time (and I suspect this may still be the case) I was unable to find any evidence of the existence of such a thing as a motor nameplate on a 230V Erika saw that read "230V/50-60Hz" or the equivalent. Mafell's response? Crickets.

So, N.A. Erika owners: what's printed on your machine's motor nameplate?

Again, all I wondered was "why?"

Why, if motors intended for the N.A. market were somehow different than those intended for the rest of the world, were their respective motor nameplates identical to those affixed to their European counterparts?

Contrast this to the motor nameplates affixed to Festool machines sold in N.A., many of which (perhaps all of which?) read "110V-120V/50Hz-60Hz".

The whole thing seemed super fishy to me.

Plus, further frustrating everything, was the clear unwillingness by Mafell AG to step up and take responsibility for their products. At every turn, they stayed firmly at arm's length, playing dumb when the time called for the exact opposite and clearly wanting nothing to do with the questions and concerns that I'd raised - even recommending at multiple junctures that I just stick with TT for answers; this even after I'd made it abundantly clear that I wanted nothing to do with that company.

In what turned out to be my last correspondence with Mafell, when I posed the following:

Quote
"So, to once again reiterate, I have contemplated purchasing several Mafell 50Hz machines including an ERIKA 85 EC push pull saw. The only thing preventing me from moving forward with these purchases is the concern I have over compatibility with 50Hz machines and the U.S. 60Hz electrical system. Throughout all of my correspondence with you and, before that with TT, no one has bothered to take the time to adequately address my concern. As a result, and without proof otherwise, I still have no idea which of the following conclusions is accurate:

  • running a 50Hz machine on 60Hz power negatively effects the motor’s health and/or longevity, or
  • running a 50Hz machine on 60Hz power has no measurable negative effect on the motor’s health
    or longevity."

...Mafell chose to not even bother to reply.

By that point (this had all taken more than a month) - and since I'd had to fight every step of the way just to make it that far - I gave up and moved over to the Festool camp.

Based on this experience, I made the decision to stay away from TT and all Mafell products. Numerous red flags went up and I chose to heed the warning. So, buyer beware.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 07:23 PM by TinyShop »

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2197
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 07:14 PM »
That’s weird that they just can’t tell you about the frequency of the motor. Could have been handled so differently, I think. [huh]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2018, 07:34 PM »
you vill not question!!

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2018, 07:47 PM »
Well I mean think of it like this; if they told you definatively YES you won’t have any electrical issues with your saw in the US you’d hold them responsible if you did have an issue, any issue. Even if it didn’t relate the the frequency affecting the longevity of the saw.

When I bought and imported my Erika from Germany I talked with an electrical engineer that frequented the mafell forums at the time. He explained to me how a universal motor works and told me it would obviously work anywhere between 50-60hz. So you might not like this answer but do your own research.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1474
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2018, 07:48 PM »
TinyShop, I would rather consult with an electrical engineer than try to get an answer from company bureaucrats and managers.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7351
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2018, 07:52 PM »
Quote
Plus, further frustrating everything, was the clear unwillingness by Mafell AG to step up and take responsibility for their products..

I do believe things could have been handled differently.  That said you wanted a German company to take responsibility for a product they export to NA, and you in turn want to import to AU.  I don't blame anyone for not wanting the responsibility.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7351
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2018, 08:05 PM »
Quote
Plus, further frustrating everything, was the clear unwillingness by Mafell AG to step up and take responsibility for their products..

I do believe things could have been handled differently.  That said you wanted a German company to take responsibility for a product they export to NA, and you in turn want to import to AU.  I don't blame anyone for not wanting the responsibility.

I'm not sure where the confusion comes from but I'm in the USA.

And, really? It's O.K. for both a manufacturer that sells all over the world and their designated importer to refuse to answer such a basic yet crucial question as posed by one of their potential customers? I never wanted anyone to take responsibility for future failures (given the paltry warranty -or the complete lack of one were I to import - I knew I'd be on the hook), I just wanted a straight answer on the long term risk, if any, that I would be facing, whether I purchased from TT or from outside the country. Both non-responses are egregious.

Curiously, TT's old website used to not only discuss the issue of transformers but also actively retailed them. The new site doesn't feature a single mention of the word "transformer" nor has it ever (at least as long as I've been watching) detailed the Hz rating of the non-standard-electrically tools detailed therein. This seems incredibly odd (if not suspect) to me. Why wouldn't this matter be disclosed right upfront? If there wasn't something to my experience, then why not get right out ahead of the issue by a) including in each applicable product description a statement of using 50Hz motors in a 60Hz environment (and whether something like a device capable of producing 60Hz is necessary) and/or b) updating the motor nameplates to signify the compatibility with 60Hz (if the motor truly is capable of handling the difference)? Why the total avoidance of the issue? Again, N.A. Erika owners, what do your motor nameplates say?   
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 08:19 PM by TinyShop »

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 08:18 PM »
My motor plate says do your own research.

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2018, 08:24 PM »
My motor plate says do your own research.

What exactly do you think I tried to do? It's not like I could take a motor off of an Erika and bring it down to my friendly electrical engineer's house for inspection. I had to rely on the retailer/importer and, failing that, the manufacturer, both of which failed to provide the basic info I needed. I don't know what the electronics of the motor are. And, if those in the best position to provide an answer to my pro forma question are unwilling to, what I am supposed to take away from that? 

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 640
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2018, 08:27 PM »
@TinyShop

It sounds like you were intending on importing a Erika 85 from Europe, and were asking the manufacturer to aid you in bypassing their designated distributor for the North American region. In that light, are you surprised that the manufacturer refused to answer your questions?

There are several NA users running Erika 85 units without issue. I don’t know if they have “NA” or “EU” models.

Is there a reason you didn’t want the Erika 70? I use my Erika 70 almost daily and have been very pleased with its performance.
CT-26, CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400 (x2), MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x2), MFT/Kapex (x3), CMS-OF, KA 65 Conturo, Sprinter full of Systainers

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2018, 08:38 PM »
Ehh I just typed a whole big thing but it’s not worth arguing on the internet. Hope you have a good night.

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2018, 08:41 PM »
@TinyShop

It sounds like you were intending on importing a Erika 85 from Europe, and were asking the manufacturer to aid you in bypassing their designated distributor for the North American region. In that light, are you surprised that the manufacturer refused to answer your questions?

There are several NA users running Erika 85 units without issue. I don’t know if they have “NA” or “EU” models.

Is there a reason you didn’t want the Erika 70? I use my Erika 70 almost daily and have been very pleased with its performance.

Tom - with all due respect, we still don't know whether there is even such a thing as "NA" or "EU" models. From everything I've been able to gather (and then infer from the vacuous silence) there doesn't appear to be anything different between motors sold in E.U. versus those sold here (in N.A.).

And I wasn't asking Mafell to assist me in bypassing the N.A. system. They could have cared less where or from whom I bought from - I represented just a sale to them (they're not Festool after all!). I did let on at the time, however, that there was the possibility that I'd be using the machine on both continents, a claim I'd intended as a way to shake them free from any misplaced allegiance to contrived sociopolitical regionalism/territorial-ism. In all honesty, that was a distinct possibility at the time. But whatever positive effect I'd hoped that news would have, none came to pass.   

Now, regarding the issue of the 70 vs the 85, since I was going to go to the trouble of buying direct (which there is no law against) and since the cost difference was so minimal, I figured I'd go for the largest version. Again, based on my experience with TT (I know when I'm being deceived) I wouldn't buy from them were they the proverbial last retailer on Earth. First impressions are everything, after all. Plus, the basically non-existent warranty they offer also factored into the decision to explore buying direct. Based on my forecasted usage pattern at the time, a twelve month warranty was almost not worth it, if you get my drift. And again, there was the massive cost savings. The Euro was doing so poorly back then that I could have almost bought two machines for the price TT quoted for one. I'll remind you that had TT simply answered my question about the risk (and had I liked the answer) you'd be talking right now to an Erika 85 owner and likely TT-satisfied customer - I never would have looked beyond their online presence.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:24 PM by TinyShop »

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 353
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2018, 09:08 PM »
Well, for what it's worth, for future purchases- I've been running an "EU" Bosch/Mafell motor for years with no trouble.  I did some pretty extensive internet digging at the time and concluded that there is no real functional risk running a universal motor at either 60 or 50 Hz.  I'd have no issues importing an Erika from Germany if and when the prices are that good again.  I'd buy one now from Timberwolf if they weren't so expensive...Not sure what to say about the lack of response from Mafell corporate, except I would hazard a guess that one customer, asking an intricate and potentially legally binding question, probably just got pushed aside- not worth it to a major corporation.  I presume that they're opinion is that's what the dealers are for.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 640
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2018, 09:32 PM »
@TinyShop

It sounds like you were intending on importing a Erika 85 from Europe, and were asking the manufacturer to aid you in bypassing their designated distributor for the North American region. In that light, are you surprised that the manufacturer refused to answer your questions?

There are several NA users running Erika 85 units without issue. I don’t know if they have “NA” or “EU” models.

Is there a reason you didn’t want the Erika 70? I use my Erika 70 almost daily and have been very pleased with its performance.

Tom - with all due respect, we still don't know whether there is even such a thing as "NA" or "EU" models. From everything I've been able to gather (and then infer from the vacuous silence) there doesn't appear to be anything different between motors sold in E.U. versus those sold here (in N.A.).

And I wasn't asking Mafell to assist me in bypassing the N.A. system. They could have cared less where or from whom I bought from - I represented just a sale to them (they're not Festool after all!). I did let on at the time, however, that there was the possibility that I'd be using the machine on both continents, a claim I'd intended as a way to shake them free from any misplaced allegiance to contrived sociopolitical regionalism/territorial-ism. In all honesty, that was a distinct possibility at the time. But whatever positive effect I'd hoped that news would have, none came to pass.   

Now, regarding the issue of the 70 vs the 85, since I was going to go to the trouble of buying direct (which there is no law against) and since the cost difference was so minimal, I figured I'd go for the largest version. Again, based on my experience with TT (I know when I'm being deceived) I wouldn't buy from them were they the proverbial last retailer on Earth. First impressions are everything, after all. Plus, the basically non-existent warranty they offer also factored into the decision to explore buying direct. Based on my forecasted usage pattern at the time, a twelve month warranty was almost not worth it, if you get my drift. And again, there was the massive cost savings. The Euro was doing so poorly back then that I could have almost bought two machines for the price TT quoted for one. I'll remind you that had TT simply answered my question about the risk (and had I liked the answer) you'd be talking right now to an Erika 85 owner and likely TT-satisfied customer - I never would have looked beyond their online presence.

For what it’s worth, a brief search on the Mafell service catalog reveals that Mafell distinguishes between NA and EU models. Whether there’s a structural or functional difference, I don’t know, but the manufacturer is pretty clear about where the tools are intended to be used.
CT-26, CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400 (x2), MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x2), MFT/Kapex (x3), CMS-OF, KA 65 Conturo, Sprinter full of Systainers

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 614
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2018, 10:45 PM »
@TinyShop

Here is the seller User ID trade-counter-online  from England for the Mafell ERIKA 85Ec Pull-Push Saw;
    
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mafell-ERIKA-85-Ec-240V-Push-Pull-Table-Saw-with-Sliding-Table-And-Guide-Fence/112545427592?epid=595230947&hash=item1a343af088:g:9HsAAOSwbkVaEpAi

$4,154.27 + Shipping:
approx. US $300.93

Here is the same model from TimberWolf with a 2-3 week lead time;

https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-erika-85ec-pull-push-saw

$3,911.00
Approx. $192.00    FedEx Ground, 1-5 days

Considering the price difference, I would go with Timberwolf.  But then again I don't have all the other issues you have with doing business with Timberwolf, which seems to be the real issue here.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 10:48 PM by McNally Family »
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 178
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2018, 11:05 PM »
I bought  a Festool hk as a display model from a UK dealer.  It's a 50hz model but it runs fine on 60hz.  I'm sure I've voided the warranty and if the saw ever goes bad I'll probably chalk it up to experience and sell it for parts.   Nice saw, though - I'm just not emotionally attached to whether is keeps working for a long time or not.    My research indicated that it's ok to put a 50hz motor on a 60hz power supply, but going the other way may shorten motor life.  The fan will be spinning slower but I think there are other reasons as well.

In any case the Erika is a significant investment and I would be peeved if the tool went out.  I have a couple of Mafell tools myself and I dread them breaking down and dealing with trying to get them serviced.  They do seem very well made though.


Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2018, 11:16 PM »
@TinyShop

Here is the seller User ID trade-counter-online  from England for the Mafell ERIKA 85Ec Pull-Push Saw;
    
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mafell-ERIKA-85-Ec-240V-Push-Pull-Table-Saw-with-Sliding-Table-And-Guide-Fence/112545427592?epid=595230947&hash=item1a343af088:g:9HsAAOSwbkVaEpAi

$4,154.27 + Shipping:
approx. US $300.93

Here is the same model from TimberWolf with a 2-3 week lead time;

https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-erika-85ec-pull-push-saw

$3,911.00
Approx. $192.00    FedEx Ground, 1-5 days

Considering the price difference, I would go with Timberwolf.  But then again I don't have all the other issues you have with doing business with Timberwolf, which seems to be the real issue here.

Thanks for the link but, to be clear, I am not in the market for an Erika saw. Not sure where the confusion came in.

As an aside, however, back when I was looking, the dealers with the lowest prices by far were located in the Netherlands and Germany.   

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2490
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2018, 12:05 AM »
The Bosch is for sure coming to the US in Q3. I am a member of another forum, that has close ties to Bosch and the product engineers have confirmed same online. It was also announced/posted on Instagram on the company feed a few weeks back. It is a few years late, but I guess better late than never. I am not sure if the Bosch has the scoring feature and it does not have the easy blade change, but it does take the slightly larger blade and can run on both Festool and Mafell tracks. Would be worth a look when it hits shelves. I think it will come in one of the new Bosch style L-Boxxes and pricing is set to be around $600 for the saw and case and no track.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2018, 05:41 AM »
The confusion is between your expectations and reality.

Go ask a pharmaceutical company if their drug is suitable for treating a different disease, see how far that gets you next.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 611
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2018, 09:47 AM »
I've been kind of hoping that this thread would fade away. However, since it hasn't, I now feel duty-bound to pass along a cautionary tale concerning TT and the Mafell home office.

A little over a year ago I came very close to importing an Erika 85 EC. However, when I was unable to get Mafell to state in writing that it is safe to operate a Cuprex motor with "50Hz" stamped on the motor nameplate on a 60Hz system, and when they also refused to comment about whether motors on machines bound for N.A. were somehow different from those sold in Europe, I respectfully changed gears and instead became a Festoolian - opting for the (I think more versatile) standalone 110V-120V/50Hz-60Hz CMS system (TS and OF modules w/sliding table, extensions tables, LA-CS 50/CMS rip fence, etc.).

The other contributing factor was, of course, the appalling 1-year warranty period offered by TT, but more on how that ties in later.

So, if you care to know more, here's how everything played out. Before the idea to import an Erika crossed my mind - and when I was still considering buying from TT - I contacted TT in writing to request more info about the Erika 85's 230V/50Hz motor. You see, I'd done my due diligence and I was concerned by the lack of any sort of definitive statement from Mafell about whether or not it was safe over the long term to power the tool on 50Hz. Obviously, this question has been discussed at length by regular folks in numerous online forums but, with no clear agreement among all of those involved, I wanted some written assurance that the motor wouldn't suffer any negative consequences.

This is when I discovered that TT only offers a 1-year warranty on the Mafell tools it sell, something that flies in the face of the standard 3-year warranty that exists on Mafell products elsewhere in the world. This, when combined with the motor nameplate discrepancy, just seemed odd to me.

So, even though the paltry warranty is what pushed me toward the idea of importing a Erika 85 myself (along with, of course, the massive savings that I could realize thanks to a favorable exchange rate, etc.) there was more to the story.

You see, when I requested clarification on what I saw as a major contradiction - on the one hand TT was fine selling tools with 230V/50Hz motor nameplates accompanied by a paltry 1-year warranty but on the other hand cautioned folks like me from buying direct from Europe - the Director of Operations and the President of TT both went out of their way to scare me away from importing what was clearly (to me at least) the same tool direct from Germany, writing to me:

Quote
"Be very careful when considering sourcing tools directly from Europe. German dealers do not have access to 120V tools, and many of the 230V tools on the gray market only work on European 50Hz frequency. It is extremely expensive to buy a tool from Europe that ultimately doesn’t work and have to send it back (especially an ERIKA which weighs over 100 lbs when fully boxed)."

...and then, bizarrely, choosing to split hairs:

Quote
"There is no such tool as an "Erika 80 EC saw". There is an "Erika 85Ec push-pull saw...."

...followed by dropping the ominous and, I think, very telling:

Quote
"Anyone in North America that purchases an Erika 85Ec...from a Dealer other than Timberwolf Tools is taking a ridiculous risk, I think. You may find that a module or motor intended for sale in Europe or the UK works for awhile in the US or Canada and then stops working. There is no mechanism for warranty repairs if something were to go wrong, however minor. Per our
Contract with Mafell AG, it is not our responsibility to support these machines. As Jeff said in his email, returning a tool of this size and weight to a Dealer is not practical. So unless you are a brilliant "do-ityourselfer" [sic] with both superior mechanical and electrical capabilities, you are stranded with a tool that is not supported."

...followed by the President accusing my "story" of being "unusual" and me of being "suspicious".

Of course, the clear implication of these various statements was that the motors attached to their tools - the tools TT was receiving from Mafell - were somehow different from those on machines elsewhere in the world, something I could find zero proof of. Kind of a statement by omission, if you will.

When I then asked Mafell directly whether motors with "230V/50Hz" nameplates that were attached to tools destined for N.A. were somehow different from their European counterparts, not only did they totally avoid answering my question (which I took to mean that there is nothing different - all motors right 'round the world are the same), they completely failed to provide me with the statement that I'd requested from them; that it is safe to operate a 230V/50Hz Mafell tool on a 60Hz system. To be clear, though I asked simple questions they wholly neglected to provide any meaningful answers.

I even went so far as to point out that, at that time (and I suspect this may still be the case) I was unable to find any evidence of the existence of such a thing as a motor nameplate on a 230V Erika saw that read "230V/50-60Hz" or the equivalent. Mafell's response? Crickets.

So, N.A. Erika owners: what's printed on your machine's motor nameplate?

Again, all I wondered was "why?"

Why, if motors intended for the N.A. market were somehow different than those intended for the rest of the world, were their respective motor nameplates identical to those affixed to their European counterparts?

Contrast this to the motor nameplates affixed to Festool machines sold in N.A., many of which (perhaps all of which?) read "110V-120V/50Hz-60Hz".

The whole thing seemed super fishy to me.

Plus, further frustrating everything, was the clear unwillingness by Mafell AG to step up and take responsibility for their products. At every turn, they stayed firmly at arm's length, playing dumb when the time called for the exact opposite and clearly wanting nothing to do with the questions and concerns that I'd raised - even recommending at multiple junctures that I just stick with TT for answers; this even after I'd made it abundantly clear that I wanted nothing to do with that company.

In what turned out to be my last correspondence with Mafell, when I posed the following:

Quote
"So, to once again reiterate, I have contemplated purchasing several Mafell 50Hz machines including an ERIKA 85 EC push pull saw. The only thing preventing me from moving forward with these purchases is the concern I have over compatibility with 50Hz machines and the U.S. 60Hz electrical system. Throughout all of my correspondence with you and, before that with TT, no one has bothered to take the time to adequately address my concern. As a result, and without proof otherwise, I still have no idea which of the following conclusions is accurate:

  • running a 50Hz machine on 60Hz power negatively effects the motor’s health and/or longevity, or
  • running a 50Hz machine on 60Hz power has no measurable negative effect on the motor’s health
    or longevity."

...Mafell chose to not even bother to reply.

By that point (this had all taken more than a month) - and since I'd had to fight every step of the way just to make it that far - I gave up and moved over to the Festool camp.

Based on this experience, I made the decision to stay away from TT and all Mafell products. Numerous red flags went up and I chose to heed the warning. So, buyer beware.

If I were TT or Mafell I would not respond to any of your questions. TT is the exclusive vendor of Mafell in the US so they don't want you importing EU tools and Mafell is supporting TT by making TT the exclusive vendor. You want them to bypass their business relationship for your sale and expect them to assist you. It would be in TT's best interest not to sell to you as you seem to already have a problem with them.

I will agree that the 1-year warranty is crappy considering the manufacturer provides a better one in Europe, but it is what it is and we have to live with it. For those after the Bosch, it won't have the Cuprex motor which is what differentiates the Mafell from other saws. You will get their rail system though which is a notch above Festool's.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 10:34 AM by JimH2 »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2018, 10:07 AM »
For those after the Bosch, it won't have the Kuprex motor which is what differentiates the Mafell from other saws. You will get their rail system though which is a notch above Festool's.

Hey @JimH2 , what's so special about the Kuprex motor?

It also doesn't appear that the MT 55 18 volt saw has the Kuprex, is that correct?

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 611
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2018, 10:58 AM »
For those after the Bosch, it won't have the Kuprex motor which is what differentiates the Mafell from other saws. You will get their rail system though which is a notch above Festool's.

Hey @JimH2 , what's so special about the Cuprex motor?

It also doesn't appear that the MT 55 18 volt saw has the Kuprex, is that correct?

I don't believe it has the Cuprex motor. That motor is their differentiator. Supposedly higher output with more power than motors of similar size. I have the TS75 and MT55cc and find the power to about the same though the Mafell has not ever bogged down on me. I don't like the weight of the TS75 and that is why I bought the MT55.

Bosch already sells their track saw in the EU and you should be able to find comparisons between the two. There are some other features missing from the Bosch and though some have said the motor must be the same because the housing is the same, this is highly unlikely. There is no way Mafell would give up their motor design to Bosch who resells them for 1/2 price. My guess is that Bosch manufacturers the external parts though there are even differences there. Mafell has quite a few tools that look like they are sourced from other vendors. I doubt they are just rebranded because Mafell does not sell a wide enough variety of tools to not make enhancements to them. They are a significantly smaller company that Festool (and their parent company) so they have nowhere near the number of tools and accessories. I have several of their tools and consider the money well-spent.

I'd say the reason the Bosch has never been sold here is the price when compared to the rest of the tools they make that are sold in the US. They are competing with DeWalt and it is all about the price. DeWalt has corded and cordless track saws on the market, but I have never seen one in the field. Their primary customers think it is crazy to spend that kind of money on any handheld power tool. I have two Bosch routers and they have very good motors and get a lot of use. They don't have the fit/finish/precision of the Festool routers I have, but they do perform well. I don't think anyone can go wrong with the Bosch. On the upside there will finally be some competition for rails other than TT.

Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 120
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2018, 11:21 AM »
In regards to whether a tool designed and manufactured to run on 50 hz power can function without damage on 60 hz power. I have done some research on this in the past and if I remember correctly, the tools designed for 50 hz have heavier windings and components inside the electric motor than those designed for 60 hz.  As such running those tools on 60 hz should not impact them other than a possible speed increase for induction motors.  Brushed motors and brushless universal motors shouldn't be impacted. 

Trying to run your 60 hz tool on 50 hz is the area where damage is more likely to occur as the motor components are supposedly not required to be as heavy. 

Again, i'm speaking from memory here, but believe this is still true.  Feel free to chime in if I got something wrong here.
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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1474
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2018, 01:45 PM »
I don't believe it has the Cuprex motor. That motor is their differentiator. Supposedly higher output with more power than motors of similar size. I have the TS75 and MT55cc and find the power to about the same though the Mafell has not ever bogged down on me.
When comparing power of MT55 to TS55 to TS75 keep in mind that they all use different kerf blades. 1.8, 2.2, and 2.4 mm respectively. That's ~20% difference in load on rip cuts (less on cross cuts) between TS55 and MT55. It's apple to oranges comparison unless you use identical blades.
There are some other features missing from the Bosch and though some have said the motor must be the same because the housing is the same, this is highly unlikely. There is no way Mafell would give up their motor design to Bosch who resells them for 1/2 price.
This speculation is as good as the opposite. I'll be convinced one way or another when I see two motors next to each other.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 01:53 PM by Svar »

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 353
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2018, 03:10 PM »
For the good of the order, I took the motor cover off the Bosch.  Wasn’t willing to go much further, but here’s what’s under the first layer.  278492-0

Let the wild speculation begin...

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2197
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2018, 04:53 PM »
For the good of the order, I took the motor cover off the Bosch.  Wasn’t willing to go much further, but here’s what’s under the first layer.  (Attachment Link)

Let the wild speculation begin...
   Now you 'done' it.... [wink]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1474
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2018, 05:06 PM »
For the good of the order, I took the motor cover off the Bosch.  Wasn’t willing to go much further, but here’s what’s under the first layer.  (Attachment Link)
Let the wild speculation begin...
Thank you, Dane  [not worthy]
This is interesting. Now, MT55 owners, your turn.

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 614
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Timberwolf Tools
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2018, 05:15 PM »
For the good of the order, I took the motor cover off the Bosch.  Wasn’t willing to go much further, but here’s what’s under the first layer.  (Attachment Link)
Let the wild speculation begin...
Thank you, Dane  [not worthy]
This is interesting. Now, MT55 owners, your turn.

It has never been a secret that the motor was Mafell.  It is other features that are missing from the saw.  Also, not certain about the electronics, but unlike Dane, I am not willing to take my new saw apart. 
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD