Author Topic: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?  (Read 5028 times)

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Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2017, 11:44 AM »
Today i finally had some time to square up my slider. I used the 12345 method with half a sheet of plywood (122x122) and I ended up with the cross cut arm out of square by 0.05mm over approximately 122cm. I then checked the sheet of plywood with my big speed square which is out by 0.02mm over 1 meter and there's a tiny bit difference at the end of the square. I'm happy with the result.

I also think I know why sliders are so common here compared to the US but correct me if I'm wrong. We use a lot of plywood topped with veneer or HPL for boat interiors. Being able to do a square cut while scoring the underside to get a clean cut on both sides is a big time saver. Another thing that's a deciding factor for most small shops here is that a slider is seen as a one machine does it all type of deal. I'll give you an example. A few weeks ago my jointer was out of service so I put a rip blade on my slider and used it to straighten and square up a slab of wood for door frames. Without it I wouldn't have been able to continue.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:12 PM by Lemwise »

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2017, 03:49 PM »
Michael - careful about acusing people of being un or improperly trained.  Keep in mind which improperly trained fellas kept your island from being wiped off the face of the earth by the guys from across the Channel.
Are you really trying to take credit for the actions of you (great)grandparents? That's really low dude. Do you know no shame?

Offline LooseSox

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2017, 12:14 AM »
I want to add to this that there is no need here to use a slider to straighten lumber either, that's what an SLR is for or even a gang rip.

I believe it all comes down to space. I could not imagine trying to be productive if all I had was a slider.  I can run lumber through my slrs at over 175' per minute. Can't straight line on a slider that fast. 

Plus you can't run a dado stack on any new slider. My old Martin 75s could sling a 2" wide stack. 

Even my mid 90s scmis can run an inch wide.

Probably due to dado stacks not being allowed use in the EU anymore. If you can't use a dado stack in the country you intend to sell the saw in, why bother engineering it to accept one? They'll never sell enough units in the US to make it a worth while investment.

Offline egmiii

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2017, 09:08 AM »
My Felder KF700s was delivered last week with dado capability.

Dado stacks are not an option in the EU, but Felder provides an option for US customers. So I wouldn't say no new sliders can accept dados.

Speaking as a hobbyist, with limited woodworking experience, a slider provides safety, accuracy, and capabilities beyond what the traditional cabinet saw provides. A guy with 30 years in the field could likely run circles around me with a Harbor Freight jobsite saw, but a slider can level the playing field for the novice. I think the cost, weight, and space requirements limit the appeal to the hobby market. I can't speak to the limited adoption in commercial environments.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2017, 12:07 PM »
My Martin t75s needed about 20' x 20' just for the saw and the full stroke. Best part of those is you could push the sliding beam forward and still use it like a regular saw.
Ripping lumber on a 126" slider is almost impossible. Can't stand to right of beam and work comfortably, can't rip with slider with out some sort of jig, plus to support the fence you have all the table parts hanging off sliding beam.  That's why I liked the old Martin's, the short stroke scmi I have.  I find the work arounds for processing solid lumber on a long slider to be a bigger pain than it's worth. 
I still wouldn't want to have one as my only saw. 


Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2017, 01:34 PM »
can't rip with slider with out some sort of jig

Quote
I find the work arounds for processing solid lumber on a long slider to be a bigger pain than it's worth.
Are you serious? I process solid wood on my slider all the time. It's the easiest and fastest way there is and I do it without a jig or clamping.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 03:33 PM by Lemwise »

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2017, 04:44 PM »
can't rip with slider with out some sort of jig

Quote
I find the work arounds for processing solid lumber on a long slider to be a bigger pain than it's worth.
Are you serious? I process solid wood on my slider all the time. It's the easiest and fastest way there is and I do it without a jig or clamping.

Yeah, I am serious. I mean you can, but you at reaching over or around the beam, you can't comfortably stand to the right of the beam and use the saw to rip lumber. It's awkward, uncomfortable and I feel almost dangerous.

The beam for the slider sticks out past the front of the saw 3 feet.

I have the clamps, shoes, etc. For both my 126" stroke saws, they are never the first saw I want to use to rip lumber.


Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2017, 04:50 PM »
English isn't my native language so could you explain to me what you mean with the beam of the saw? I don't reach over or around anything when I'm ripping lumber on my slider. I don't understand.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 49
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2017, 04:58 PM »
English isn't my native language so could you explain to me what you mean with the beam of the saw? I don't reach over or around anything when I'm ripping lumber on my slider. I don't understand.

I'm not sure what size slider you have, but on a 126" slider, the part of the saw under the sliding table is about 6 feet long. Which is about 18-24" beyond the body of the saw, front and rear, hence the need to walk around it. Your entire body is to the right of the blade when standing behind it like a traditional cabinet saw. Some find this awkward when ripping.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2017, 05:01 PM »
English isn't my native language so could you explain to me what you mean with the beam of the saw? I don't reach over or around anything when I'm ripping lumber on my slider. I don't understand.

The beam is the part the slider is mounted to, slides on.
It's 126" long too.  I don't like leaning over that and reaching around the blade/guard. It's slow to clamp it down with the t slot on the sliding rail,  not interested in making a fritz and Franz jig, messing with parrall fences, etc.  I want to set my fence and rip my lumber.

I rarely use a saw without a stock feeder, I rarely use a table saw to rip lumber anymore. Nothing better than a SLR. 

I get not everyone has the space or power for a 6k pound, 20hp slr, but as far as production goes, no slider will keep up with it or a beam saw. 


Offline WarnerConstCo.

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    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2017, 05:04 PM »
Ok, it's more like 9 feet long, the beam is the same length as the sliding table part.  There is a reason the controls are on the outside of the slider beam. 

Offline Svar

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2017, 05:26 PM »
I get not everyone has the space or power for a 6k pound, 20hp slr, but as far as production goes, no slider will keep up with it or a beam saw.
Apples to oranges IMHO.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 05:29 PM by Svar »

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2017, 07:55 PM »
I get not everyone has the space or power for a 6k pound, 20hp slr, but as far as production goes, no slider will keep up with it or a beam saw.
Apples to oranges IMHO.

Except for the fact that professional shop environment was brought up.

You are going to be severely bottle necked if you are relying on one or two sliding saws to cut all your sheet goods and process your solid lumber.

Plus you will kill a guys back humping sheets up on a saw.  Then you get into having to have lift tables to load and unload saws.

Fork lift to load a beam saw, SLR etc. Plus a tailer.

Sliders are pretty good in one to 4 man shops, but any kind of actual production you will have a bottle neck.

Heck, I can buy an SLR, beam saw and a planer for the cost of one decent new slider. My 6 head weinig Hydromat 22AL with 20 heads, parts, loader deck, grinder, knives, etc was less than a used altendorf. 


Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 157
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2017, 09:09 PM »
Have to agree with everything Darcy said. Plus the dang things take up to much space. We have a Holzer slider in the shop and it takes up as much space as our Biesse rover b cnc with a 4 x 12 table. Sliders are ok but I would never use one to process lumber there's other equipment suited just for that and if you can't straight line a board with a standard tablesaw you might be in the wrong business. 

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2017, 11:42 AM »
I'm not sure what size slider you have, but on a 126" slider, the part of the saw under the sliding table is about 6 feet long. Which is about 18-24" beyond the body of the saw, front and rear, hence the need to walk around it. Your entire body is to the right of the blade when standing behind it like a traditional cabinet saw. Some find this awkward when ripping.

Now I understand what you mean. I don't use my slider like that. I stand to the left of the blade (just like when you're cutting sheet goods) and place my slabs of wood on the sliding table and I let the machine do the work for me. This is how every shipwright I know and have ever known does it. Why on earth would you be standing to the right and make things more difficult yourself? The only limiting factor for me is the length of my slider which is 3.2 meters but since I rarely need anything longer than 3 meters that's no problem for me.

I also spent some more time on squaring up the cross cut arm. There was a voice in the back of my head that kept saying you can do better. I could no longer ignore it so I went to work. it's now out of square by 0.02mm over 122cm. This is a result I'm truly happy with. I can't get it any better than this.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:50 PM by Lemwise »

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2017, 09:53 AM »
Today I bought a second slider from a company that recently went bankrupt. It's an Altendorf WA80 from 2005. I have my Harwi upstairs and this one will stay downstairs with the rest of the big woodworking machines. I'm picking it up tomorrow and on Wednesday a mechanic from De Groot is going to give it a full service. I also bought the Atlas Copco air compressor you see behind the slider.


Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2017, 05:04 PM »
I'm not sure what size slider you have, but on a 126" slider, the part of the saw under the sliding table is about 6 feet long. Which is about 18-24" beyond the body of the saw, front and rear, hence the need to walk around it. Your entire body is to the right of the blade when standing behind it like a traditional cabinet saw. Some find this awkward when ripping.

Now I understand what you mean. I don't use my slider like that. I stand to the left of the blade (just like when you're cutting sheet goods) and place my slabs of wood on the sliding table and I let the machine do the work for me. This is how every shipwright I know and have ever known does it. Why on earth would you be standing to the right and make things more difficult yourself? The only limiting factor for me is the length of my slider which is 3.2 meters but since I rarely need anything longer than 3 meters that's no problem for me.

I also spent some more time on squaring up the cross cut arm. There was a voice in the back of my head that kept saying you can do better. I could no longer ignore it so I went to work. it's now out of square by 0.02mm over 122cm. This is a result I'm truly happy with. I can't get it any better than this.

Because I like using a nice solid fence when ripping lumber. Standing to the left of the beam is awkward, I don't have time to fiddle with ripping lumber during the slider. Set a rip fence and go. 

Better yet, just shove boards in the slr and let it do the work.

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2017, 05:24 PM »
Because I like using a nice solid fence when ripping lumber. Standing to the left of the beam is awkward

Now I'm starting to think you've never actually used a slider to rip lumber. When you stand on the left all you have to do is push it against the fence, which is solid enough on a slider, and move the table forward. I'm doing the same thing as you (ripping lumber) but I'm making things easy for myself. The only lifting I do is when I put my lumber on the slider and from there on out the machine does all the heavy work. What could be easier than that?

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2017, 08:29 PM »
You are using the fence on the sliding table part?

Want to set a rip fence to my width, lock it down and shove lumber. I do not like setting fence on slider to the left of the blade and walking/sliding board past the blade.

I want a stock feeder, solid fence and to stand in front of the saw, not to the side.

Cross cuts and sheet goods are the only worth using a slider for. Ripping lumber, no thanks.

Offline Rollin22Petes

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2017, 09:04 PM »
I have been using a slider for about 20 years and again I'm with Darcy for sheet goods there ok but for ripping solid stock it just doesn't make since. There are far easier and quicker methods.

Offline Lemwise

  • Posts: 253
Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2017, 11:47 AM »
You are using the fence on the sliding table part?

I do it like this:



The only difference is I made 2 clamps myself that fit in the groove of the sliding table and I have to manually push the table forward. And I don't have a nice laser line. I only use the clamps for the first cut so that I have a perfectly straight line.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2017, 12:16 PM »
There is a fundamental difference using lumber in the rough and straight line ripping one edge verse ripping lumber that already has a nice edge.

Of course I dont use the fence and using a slider would be great for getting that first edge on rough lumber, then I wouldn't have to pull out my sled. As much lumber as I buy in the rough I still can't justify the cost and size(and I have a fairly big shop) of a slider, but I sure could put it to use. I think I would still use my cabinet saw for everything else though, just out of habit and because I am comfortable with it.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 12:19 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2017, 02:20 PM »
There is a fundamental difference using lumber in the rough and straight line ripping one edge verse ripping lumber that already has a nice edge.
I only buy rough lumber (lower price). I go to my dealer where I seek out a rough sawn stem (or planks) and I do the rest.

Quote
I think I would still use my cabinet saw for everything else though, just out of habit and because I am comfortable with it
Having only a cabinet saw on a shipyard would be like cutting off my right hand because the habit over here is a slider. It does everything a cabinet saw does and more.

Online antss

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2017, 07:08 PM »
Quote
habit over here is a slider. It does everything a cabinet saw does and more.

Yes, but at what cost in terms of money and floor space ?

The same argument can be made about a tracksaw, yet that doesn't have the numbers like the stationary saws either , I suspect.  Certainly not in the U.S. , and its cheaper.

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Why are there no US based sliding table saw manufacturers?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2017, 02:09 PM »
Quote
habit over here is a slider. It does everything a cabinet saw does and more.
Yes, but at what cost in terms of money and floor space ?

A slider pays for itself in a production setting. And floor space? It's not like a slider is 4x4 meters. I just don't get why anyone who uses a saw to make a living would choose a small cabinet saw over a slider. Ask any Dutch shipwright and he/she will say the same thing.