Author Topic: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?  (Read 4185 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3114
Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« on: February 26, 2017, 07:39 AM »
I've been giving my card scraper a lot more work recently, and am considering upgrading due to the fatigue my fingers get from bending the card for long periods of time.  I've been trying to read up on the difference between cabinet scrapers (basically just a holder for the blade/card) and scraping planes, but I'm still uncertain about whether the plane is basically just a souped up version of the cabinet scraper, or whether there are reasons/applications why someone would choose one over the other (other than size/sole footprint).

And then in terms of the different scraping plane options, the one difference seems to be that the LV is engineered to bend the blade slightly, while the LN keeps the blade straight.  Also, does anyone know what the advantage/application of the toothed blades for the LN are?

http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=48431&cat=1,41182,68491

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/large-scraping-plane

Finally, is it it difficult to sharpen/burnish the scraping plane blade?
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Offline waho6o9

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    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 08:20 AM »
York Pitch will handle most tear-out prone wood well.  Middle Pitch is for the most difficult woods.  Using one of these frogs will eliminate the need for scrapers, in most cases.
Will not fit other makes of planes.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4132/high-angle-frogs

Interesting thread Edward.

I know this doesn't answer your questions but I found the information from Lie Nielsen enlightening.


Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 130
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 12:12 PM »
Edward, I work with woods that have highly interlocked grain, and I never use my Stanley #112 or #80. In the past I would have first turned to a half pitch plane (60 degree cutting angle) in other BD (e.g. HNT Gordon) or BU (Veritas BUS) mode, but these days I prefer a BD Common pitch plane where I can set a closed up chipbreaker. For example, the Veritas Custom #4 has a 42 degree frog.

I do use card scrapers (or, as they are referred to in Australia and the UK, cabinet scrapers). However, these are generally reserved for small areas or curves.

My advise is learn to use your hand planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline Chris Wong

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Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 12:30 PM »
Edward,

In addition to saving fatigue in your hands, a scraping plane also helps keep the surface level. The purpose of bending the blade is to focus the scraping and prevent the corners from digging in. Grinding a radius on the corners of the blade has the same effect.

The toothed blade is intended for prep for veneering with hide glue, I believe.
Chris Wong, http://FlairWoodworks.com

The thoughts and ideas expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of http://UltimateTools.ca.  But Dan does say "hello".

Offline Chris Wong

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Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2017, 12:33 PM »
Also, scraper planes including the #80 are ground at 45 degrees. Sharpening and burnishing is not any more difficult than with card scrapers.
Chris Wong, http://FlairWoodworks.com

The thoughts and ideas expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of http://UltimateTools.ca.  But Dan does say "hello".

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3077
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2017, 01:00 PM »
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4132/high-angle-frogs

I know this doesn't answer your questions but I found the information from Lie Nielsen enlightening.

Thanks for posting, I didn't know that many frogs were available for LN planes.[smile]  I thought there used to be only 2 options.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/lie-nielsen-replacement-blades/large-scraping-plane-blade-toothed-18tpi?node=4104

Offline waho6o9

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    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2017, 01:59 PM »
You're welcome, it sure is fascinating how different angles solve different problems.

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2017, 03:27 PM »
Edward, have you considered the following?  I find these help with my hands, the other thing is putting a magnet (kitchen/business card size) to cushion thumbs.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?cat=1,310&p=32669
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3114
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2017, 06:00 PM »
Thanks @waho6o9 I actually have a LN 4 1/2 with the 55 degree frog.  But it still occasionally tears out the wood, like on the Sapele I was working with the other week.  Thus the scraper interest...

York Pitch will handle most tear-out prone wood well.  Middle Pitch is for the most difficult woods.  Using one of these frogs will eliminate the need for scrapers, in most cases.
Will not fit other makes of planes.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4132/high-angle-frogs

Interesting thread Edward.

I know this doesn't answer your questions but I found the information from Lie Nielsen enlightening.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3114
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2017, 06:02 PM »
Thanks @Wooden Skye That looks very useful.

Edward, have you considered the following?  I find these help with my hands, the other thing is putting a magnet (kitchen/business card size) to cushion thumbs.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?cat=1,310&p=32669
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3114
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2017, 06:02 PM »
Thanks for the tips @derekcohen

Edward, I work with woods that have highly interlocked grain, and I never use my Stanley #112 or #80. In the past I would have first turned to a half pitch plane (60 degree cutting angle) in other BD (e.g. HNT Gordon) or BU (Veritas BUS) mode, but these days I prefer a BD Common pitch plane where I can set a closed up chipbreaker. For example, the Veritas Custom #4 has a 42 degree frog.

I do use card scrapers (or, as they are referred to in Australia and the UK, cabinet scrapers). However, these are generally reserved for small areas or curves.

My advise is learn to use your hand planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 130
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2017, 07:00 PM »
Edward, I also had a 55 degree frog in a LN 4 1/2. It was not enough to prevent tear out, and it was a bear to push. The cutting angle needs to be a minimum of 60 degrees when using high cutting angles. This makes them even more work to push. A scraper plane is even more so. When I mastered setting the chipbreaker, I replaced the frog with a 45 degree one. The chipbreaker controls tear out, and the lower cutting angle makes it easier to push.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3114
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2017, 07:37 PM »
@derekcohen Thanks.  The tuning to which you are referring also includes the sharpening technique you show for the chipbreaker on your website, correct?

Edward, I also had a 55 degree frog in a LN 4 1/2. It was not enough to prevent tear out, and it was a bear to push. The cutting angle needs to be a minimum of 60 degrees when using high cutting angles. This makes them even more work to push. A scraper plane is even more so. When I mastered setting the chipbreaker, I replaced the frog with a 45 degree one. The chipbreaker controls tear out, and the lower cutting angle makes it easier to push.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 130
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2017, 09:33 PM »
Edward, this is the chipbreaker setting article:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SettingTheChipbreaker.html

When the chipbreaker is set up correctly, the shaving produced will straighten (not be curly). Here is an example of the #4 1/2 on Tasmanian Oak ..



Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3038
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2017, 11:53 PM »
I had the LN scraper plane for many years, and never really got to like using it. The blade does not flex- you are right about this- but you sharpen it with a camber so the result is the same. I do have the LV cabinet scraper and much prefer it. Cheaper, easier to set up, and easier to use.

However, most of the time I use a simple hand scraper. I hold it differently to most people I've seen- my hands get less fatigued, my fingertips don't burn up as fast and I get more power. I found a picture of Paul Sellers using his the same way.






Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3114
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2017, 09:41 AM »
Thanks Derek.

Edward, this is the chipbreaker setting article:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SettingTheChipbreaker.html

When the chipbreaker is set up correctly, the shaving produced will straighten (not be curly). Here is an example of the #4 1/2 on Tasmanian Oak ..



Regards from Perth

Derek
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Tim Raleigh

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    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2017, 02:02 PM »
My advise is learn to use your hand planes.

Richard Maguire at the English Woodworker site has a great series on setting your cap irons to avoid tear out I find him very amusing, and he along with others does demystify a this stuff.
Tim

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3663
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2017, 06:29 PM »
Edward, this is the chipbreaker setting article:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SettingTheChipbreaker.html

When the chipbreaker is set up correctly, the shaving produced will straighten (not be curly). Here is an example of the #4 1/2 on Tasmanian Oak ..

...
Regards from Perth

Derek

@derekcohen OK please help me understand...

1) LN #4-1/2
2) And use the 50 degree frog https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/high-angle-frogs-high-angle-frogs-for-no.-4-1-2-  ?
3) 55 degree frog
4) Set the chip breaker per your instructions link?

Is it 1+4, or 1+2+4 or 1+3+4 ?

Ta

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 130
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Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2017, 08:07 PM »
Hi Holme

My preference is the lowest possible cutting angle (for LN this would be 45 degrees) and used with the chipbreaker.

This combination would produce the best results with the least physical effort.

Keep in mind that the 4 1/2 is a wide plane (2 3/8" wide blade). The plane becomes progressively harder to push as the cutting angle increases (as the frog angle increases). Waxing the sole of the plane helps greatly to reduce friction, making the plane easier to push, but you have to renew the wax constantly.

If you really want a high angle plane (perhaps, to not have to set the chipbreaker, which takes time to master), then go to a narrower plane. At the minimum I would not go above a #4. In fact, I purchased a #3 (1 3/4" blade). This was much easier to push, but a 55 degree frog did not offer the performance needed to avoid tear out on the interlocked grain of the local West Australian woods. A 45 degree frog using the chipbreaker did to the trick.

Just to emphasise the above, my go to smoother is a Veritas Custom #4 with a 42 degree frog. This is used with a chipbreaker. In addition to the lower cutting angle, this plane also uses the PM-V11 blade, which hones and cuts much better than the A2 steel of LN (my LN planes also have PM-V11 blades).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3663
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2017, 09:54 PM »
Thanks @derekcohen
Let me start with the goal...
I want to end up with flat smooth shiny veneered panel.

The veneer will be on a stable base.
Most likely with solid wood edging attached to the base first, then vacuum-bag glueing the veneer to the base material and edging.
Then some combo of either a Maloof (linseed+tung) with lacquer over it, or just a lacquer

I was leaning towards a belt sander with 240 or 300+ belts and then some 600 on a random orbital.
I am wondering if I would be better off using a plane or scraper to get the surface smooth and flat.

The edging also is producing some beard-stroking as I am concerned it mad want to pull away from the base with humidity/temp expansion and contraction.

I am considering the edging to be 10-12 mm wide and biscuited onto the substraight, before levelling it to be even with the surface... Then veneer.

How would a smart or wise person go about it?

Offline derekcohen

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Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2017, 11:06 PM »
Thin veneer is a different situation to using a plane - unless you are skilled at taking very fine shavings, then a plane may be risky. I would definitely never use a belt sander - it will cut through the veneer and destroy the surface.

My first preference would be a card scraper (cabinet scraper in Oz and the UK). There is more control with one of these than a scraper plane since you can adjust and re-adjust the angle of the blade as you like. Set the cabinet scraper up with a fine hook.

Some do prefer a scraper plane in this instance, and I have a Stanley #112 that does work well. The surface you will smooth should be flat, and all you are doing is cleaning up glue joints.

If you want crisp edges, working solid wood is best with a hand plane, either a smoother or a block plane. A sander will round over the edges. Watch the grain direction.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2857
Re: Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2017, 11:58 AM »
Sanding veneer with an ordinary belt sander would be a disaster in any but the most skilled hands but using a belt sander with a well designed and adjusted frame like the Hol-zer/Festool combination would be the opposite.

Holmz, the sander I have is the 75mm version and it is very easy to handle. I've never held the 105 so I can't say how it feels.