Author Topic: Chisels  (Read 25296 times)

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Online Davej

  • Posts: 630
Re: Chisels
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2013, 05:03 PM »
Quality japanese steel is the best in the world , wether its a chisel or  any kind of blade , the way they combine different hardness of steel within a blade is sublime craftsmanship . in my humble opinion anyway .
I dont mind growing old but i refuse to grow up

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Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2013, 05:10 PM »
What i've done so far is buy a Tormek T-7 and ordered a set of 6 Narex 8116 cabinet makers chisels. I spent last Sunday trying to optimise my scary sharp/waterstones technique without complete success.  I had been having problems with the diamond plate sticking to the waterstones when flattening them and then the waterstones moving all over the place. I decided to make a waterstone holder which helped up to a point. I was finding myself having to sharpen the primary bevel of my crappy (newish) Stanley chisels after each small mortise and I was having to use really coarse grit sandpaper (even 180) and going through several grades to 1200. Then I was having the problem with a big jump in grit to 6000 for the waterstone (by this time for the secondary bevel). I also found that the Veritas honing guide's secondary bevel feature wasn't giving enough difference to the angle to make the secondary bevel a quick operation, particularly with a relatively fine waterstone. I was taking 5 or 10 minutes to blunt the chisel and 30 mins to restore it. This then led me to buy the Tormek. I was also considering buying some good chisels like LN or PM-V11 but couldn't get any good deals on them so decided to buy a cheap set now and a better set later when I've learnt a bit more about using a chisel and also sharpening them. I love the Tormek and can completely understand why many people have recommended them. I too ended up with a cut on my forearm through testing the sharpness (the moderators on here should ban people from reporting these tests as it is perpetuating the injuries  [smile]). I haven't given up on the waterstones method as I still see a lot of merit in it but it is nice to have an alternative method.

I find chisels to be a really interesting tool. Amazingly satisfying to use when sharp but very difficult to choose when looking for a consensus of opinion on forums (except for the really high end products such as LN.

I think that when my finances have recovered (just bought a cms base unit, saw insert, router insert, CSX, Tormek, Narex chisel set, mortise gauge, digital height gauge, dividers and Knew Concepts saw!) I will buy the PM-V11 set and one or two mortise chisels.

T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline farms100

  • Posts: 133
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Re: Chisels
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2013, 06:28 PM »
I have purchased a number of chisels over the years and all of them will give you a great cut when 1st sharpened.  However, only my Japanese chisels will retain the sharp edge long enough to finish a project.  The Japanese chisels that I own and hollow back very hard cutting edge forged together with thicker mild steel that absorbs most of the cutting shock.

Quality relates to ease of use and edge retention in my experience.

Jack

sharpening is a core skill. Not letting an edge get dull enough you have to grind it and start over is key.

that being said chopping dovetails in oak and maple are tough on any chisel I don't care what steel its made of.
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2348
Re: Chisels
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2013, 08:00 PM »
I have purchased a number of chisels over the years and all of them will give you a great cut when 1st sharpened.  However, only my Japanese chisels will retain the sharp edge long enough to finish a project.  The Japanese chisels that I own and hollow back very hard cutting edge forged together with thicker mild steel that absorbs most of the cutting shock.

Quality relates to ease of use and edge retention in my experience.

Jack

sharpening is a core skill. Not letting an edge get dull enough you have to grind it and start over is key.

that being said chopping dovetails in oak and maple are tough on any chisel I don't care what steel its made of.

I agree but, the frequency of resharpening after cutting dovetails in oak, teak, rosewood and other hard woods shows the need for a quality steel tool.

Jack

Offline TinyTiger

  • Posts: 83
Re: Chisels
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2013, 10:48 PM »
As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?

I use a combination of the above.  I flatten the backs with a coarse diamond stone and 1000, 4000, and 8000 water stones.  Then I sharpen the bevel with a Tormek, strop the bevel with the Tormek, and finally remove the burr formed by running the back a couple of times over the 8000 waterstone again.  It seems to work really well for me.
Russ

Offline farms100

  • Posts: 133
    • please visit our woodworking guild
Re: Chisels
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 07:08 AM »
i have the jet clone of the tormek, and find its very slow, also having to fill and empty the water bath is annoying.

I use 6 inch VS bench grinder, very course diamond stone, water stones, and of course i strop frequently
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline cgraham

  • Posts: 56
Re: Chisels
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 08:51 AM »
The latest edition of wood talk has some content about Japanese chisels. Worth listening if you want more info.

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2348
Re: Chisels
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2013, 11:23 AM »
The latest edition of wood talk has some content about Japanese chisels. Worth listening if you want more info.

Keep in mind that all Japanese chisels are not equal in quality.

Jack

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2013, 04:01 AM »
I thought I'd post an update on this topic and some reflections on my decisions.

The Narex chisels arrived a couple of days ago. They appear to be nicely made and are very light. The backs took ages to flatten. There are some areas that are so recessed that I gave up trying to level them (in the end I just made sure that most of it was flat and the an area and inch or so just behind the edge). I tried using the edge of the Tormek to flatten the backs but found this both very slow and difficult to control. In the end I concluded that a coarse diamond honing plate was the best (DMT 8" in my case). I also made the mistake of trying sandpaper on glass and trying to hold it flat. The trouble with this is you can get raised areas that abrade the area around the edge which is the last thing you want. I managed to pretty much wreck the back of one of the chisels using the Tormek. I was applying a lot of force and moving it around and one edge caught and I ended up with a bevel along the edge. I tried various high risk procedures which made it even (and much) worse. In the end I adopted a more sensible approach (probably took me a couple of hours!) and managed to flatten an inch or so behind the edge and so it will do for a while. A word of caution about diamond plates: they dont feel abrasive but they sure as **** are sharp! I was flattening the back of a chisel and didn't notice that the tip of my index finger was running along the top edge of the plate. It suddenly felt hot and I looked at it  and it appeared to be blistered - then the blood started flowing. I had basically sanded the end of my finger off! Its not as bad as it sounds - there's only one match head sized area thats full depth skin removal. I used one of the Tormek plasters (Excellent plasters BTW).

I put 30 deg bevels on the chisels thinking I would renew this bevel everytime I sharpen (as opposed to honing). I endorse Tinytiger's suggestion of using the waterstone on the back of the chisel rather than the Tormek. I think it is far too easy to round over the edge using the honing wheel. I will experiment with using the Tormek to hone the bevel as opposed to using the waterstone. Its just occurred to me that it would be good to have a microadjustable honing guide where you can incrementally adjust the bevel angle to make sure that it is the waterstone that puts the final edge on the chisel rather than the Tormek created one. The microbevel feature on the Veritas mk 2 is a little crude for this I think?

On reflection, I would rather have paid extra for the LN or even maybe the PM-V11 chisels than spend virtually a whole day sorting out these Narex's (even discounting my errors). Its all been a useful learning experience though.

Yesterday I spotted (gumtree) and bought a brand new (albeit with a couple of surface rust spots on the side through storage in the damp) Veritas Medium shoulder plane plus 3 new Sorby mortise chisels (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2) (Cab handled 332s) for £155 delivered so I can practise my chisel skills some more.

Thanks to everybody for the suggestions.

T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline JayStPeter

  • Posts: 363
Re: Chisels
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2013, 10:57 AM »
That is a learning experience.  Something we all go through I think.  I've decided to leave the fettling to others and just stick with LN and Veritas for my hand tools.

I'll admit that my favorite handplane is a Stanley 605 I spent about 15hrs. fixing up.  But, I'm really not interested in doing that again ... BTDT.
Jay St. Peter

Online RobBob

  • Posts: 1237
Re: Chisels
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2013, 11:07 AM »
This might help:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 01:51 PM by rljatl »

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 453
Re: Chisels
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2013, 11:24 AM »
Quote
It just occurred to me that it would be good to have a microadjustable honing guide where you can incrementally adjust the bevel angle to make sure that it is the waterstone that puts the final edge on the chisel rather than the Tormek created one. The microbevel feature on the Veritas mk 2 is a little crude for this I think?

I just bought one of these devices from VSC Tools, which does exactly what you describe:


http://vsctools.com/product-details/sharpening-jig/

There are several videos on the site that show the jig in operation.

Offline Festool Fishy

  • Posts: 147
Re: Chisels
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 04:13 AM »
Hey Cliff
this makes for good reading just in case your short of it and need more confusion !!

cheers Peter

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 04:24 AM »
Hi Peter, I discovered that myself a few days ago. It certainly shows the benefits of high quality chisels.
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.