Author Topic: Chisels  (Read 25696 times)

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Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Chisels
« on: May 30, 2013, 07:08 AM »
I know there have been many threads about the choice of chisels and I have read them all I think but I am still undecided on what to buy. I am interested in the idea of trying M and T and dovetail joints just for the fun of it (for me woodworking is only for enjoyment anyway) and also just having a reasonable set of chisels for general use. I have some very cheap draper chisels that cost £15 from a cheap big store. I am reluctant to invest much effort in getting these into a useable state (I have the relevant sharpening equipment) but would prefer to buy a set of decent or half decent chisels on the basis that I am more likely to get into using them if they are a pleasure to use (this principle seems to have worked with planes when I bought a couple of LN to replace an old poor condition Stanley).

I am prepared to consider buying something as expensive as a set of LN bench chisels but would also like to consider cheaper, particularly as many people regard some cheaper chisels as excellent value and more than up to the job. There seem to be a number of cheaper brands such as Narex, Two Cherries (otherwise known as Kirschen I understand) or Ashley Iles. There seem to be different camps of people preferring the Narex over the Two Cherries and vice versa. I don't know to what extent this is personal preference or people just trying the one brand and liking it. Many people very much like the Ashley Iles and regard these as a definite cut (sorry about the Freudian slip!) above Narex and Two Cherries. Others don't like the AI and I wonder if they are commenting on the latest Mk2 version (I don't know when this came out). Then there are the Japanese chisels such as these from Axminster:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-japanese-oire-nomi-chisel-set-prod820165/

If anyone would like to offer any advice it would be much appreciated.



T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6620
Re: Chisels
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 07:20 AM »
I think Dean Social has one of those Japanese Chisels.   im sure he will answer what he thinks later.

I have Harold & Saxon chisels!   Although they are very nice chisels im not really rating them at the moment to be honest.   I find them far to brittle!  Im pretty sure I have had the edge break on me just chiseling Oak.   They are hard so when I get a chip it takes a while to get it out!   

I have a chip in every one of them Harold & Saxons soooo...  unless im being to rough with them but I was under the impression they are for contractors site use!   My Marples are a much softer metal but I have only ever chipped my Marples when I have dropped them or hit a nail or screw never just chiseling wood.   

So when it comes to sharpening even though the Harold & Saxons hold the edge longer but cus of the chips it takes longer to get them back I much prefer sharpening my Marples more regularly to keep a good edge.


My mate has some Two Cherries  chisels says he really likes them nice chisels.

I would avoid HARD chisels I think the risk of chips are higher and they take so long to get out!  Its better having a medium hardness chisel so you reduce the chances of chipping but still have a good blade retention to reduce the amount of sharpening required.

I believe those Japanese ones are very hard.   

Dont get me wrong im looking at it from site use!  Maybe workshop use a harder metal chisel will be fine on clean wood with alot less risk of chipping the blade edge.

JMB

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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6620
Re: Chisels
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 07:24 AM »
Veritas brought out this metal which apparently best of both worlds  easy sharpening but still has good blade retention

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504
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Offline RL

  • Posts: 3039
Re: Chisels
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 01:00 PM »
Veritas brought out this metal which apparently best of both worlds  easy sharpening but still has good blade retention

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504

That's what I'd go for next time. I'd get a set of Imperial bench chisels and a 1/4" or 3/8" mortise chisel. I have the Ashley Iles chisel set and I'm not that keen on them. I find I am forever sharpening them, and not just honing but all the way back to the primary bevel. For the chisels narrower than 1/2" I even changed the primary bevel to 30 degrees from 25 degrees to help make the edge more robust but to little avail. I have two Lie Nielsen chisels which are excellent in comparison.

I'd love to get a different set one day but it's not a priority so I live with the Ashley iles.

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 01:36 PM »
Thanks for your suggestions/feedback Brett and also Richard - it was your comment on an earlier thread that made me think twice about the Ashley Iles. The PM-V11 are $360 (Canadian) which is around £230. After postage and import duties I guess that would be around £300. I have been offered 7.5% discount off the LN chisel set (if I buy some other stuff as well) so I may consider that as well. Yet another option is to try and get my wife to bring something back from San Francisco next week (she is there for a week) but she might clobbered for import duties and even worse, would have to know what they cost  [scared].
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline Deansocial

  • Posts: 2114
Re: Chisels
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 01:41 PM »
I like my jap chisel. The beauty of it is the it is both hard and soft metal so easy to sharpen if it does chip. I have only chipped mine because i dropped it on tarmac

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6620
Re: Chisels
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 04:47 PM »
Thanks for your suggestions/feedback Brett and also Richard - it was your comment on an earlier thread that made me think twice about the Ashley Iles. The PM-V11 are $360 (Canadian) which is around £230. After postage and import duties I guess that would be around £300. I have been offered 7.5% discount off the LN chisel set (if I buy some other stuff as well) so I may consider that as well. Yet another option is to try and get my wife to bring something back from San Francisco next week (she is there for a week) but she might clobbered for import duties and even worse, would have to know what they cost  [scared].


U can get away with the import duty just say they are second hand and you where given them.  Just take them out of the packages etc make them look a little used or something.

Or

Buy them in the UK
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-veritas-pm-v11-bench-chisels-prod887049/
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 04:50 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 05:55 PM »
I think it would be a lot cheaper to buy them from Veritas in Canada than Axminster (and they don't have half of them in stock). I am very tempted. I think it is between these and the LN set for £209 (including discount). 
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 03:02 AM »
I've done a bit of research and chisels attract duty as well as vat (I think it is 3.5%) so if the postage cost was £30 (a guess) then the total cost would be £335 which to me seems excessive compared to £209 for the LN set.
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline JayStPeter

  • Posts: 363
Re: Chisels
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 09:50 AM »
I have the LNs, they are great.  Don't think you'd be dissapointed in them.
Jay St. Peter

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3522
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Chisels
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2013, 10:19 AM »
I have LN's, and like them. They are beautiful chisels, and turned up and sharp when you receive them but I do find them a bit "light" in my hands.

If you are like me and weight and feel are important, I would suggest you actually pick up a chisel and try it before you buy a set.

For every day bench work I still prefer my cheapo yellow handle Marples. The steel is a bit soft but I really like the weight and I find them great for almost every task except dovetails.

Tim

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2013, 11:05 AM »
Tim, thanks for that. What would you recommend for dovetails? (speciality ones or ones that just have a thinner blade?)
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3039
Re: Chisels
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 12:15 PM »
Tim, thanks for that. What would you recommend for dovetails? (speciality ones or ones that just have a thinner blade?)

I use regular chisels for dovetails but I do have a 1/8" LN chisel to get into the corners.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3522
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Chisels
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2013, 12:24 PM »
Tim, thanks for that. What would you recommend for dovetails? (speciality ones or ones that just have a thinner blade?)

I use regular chisels for dovetails but I do have a 1/8" LN chisel to get into the corners.

Agreed! For me the weight of the LN are perfect for a heavy handed SOB like me!
Tim

Offline farms100

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Re: Chisels
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 12:51 PM »
 I have a very mixed set of chisels.

LN are fantastic, a bit short in the usable steel for my taste, has a  big thick blade.
pfeil also very good, thinner blade gets really sharp good edge retention. (metric)

old set of marples softer than the above but sharpen up really fast.

ashley iles I have 2 inch chisel that was factory fresh. despite grinding and sharpening at least 5  times the edge crumbles like crazy.

I tried some of the woodriver a few years back and those are pretty good for a first set of chisels.

 I'd like to try the new lee valley ones but festool seems to be sinking into my brain.

Bottom line is your going to use the chisel that fits into your hand well. 
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline woodguy7

  • Posts: 2727
Re: Chisels
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2013, 06:03 PM »
I have a full set of 2 Cherries, Lie Nielson & a set of 4 Japanese chisels.  I rarely use the Japanese, the Lie Nielsons only come out when doing furniture or something nice but my 2 Cherries are the ones I use all the time. Love them.

This is only workshop use though, on site I use a mix of Marple's blue chip & Stanley's. I will probably get a set of the new Veritas ones at some point as well.

Doing more dovetailing then get the Lie Nielson, doing more M&T then get the 2 Cherries.

That's my opinion.
If its made of wood, i can make it smaller.
Shirt size medium
p.s- ive started reading these too

Offline TinyTiger

  • Posts: 83
Re: Chisels
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 08:39 PM »
I have used the older Marples and the newer Marples/Irwin, and they were both nice but really soft steel and dulled quickly.  I tried the Narex, but they had handles that were so light the chisels felt strange and off-balance.  I was never comfortable with them.  I used the Ashley Isles, and they were pretty soft too.  I even had a set of Craftsmans quite a few years back.  I finally got sick of sharpening all of the bargain-priced chisels after very little use (and light use at that).

Just my 2 cents, but I highly recommend the Lie Nielsens if you can swing them.  I got rid of all the others and got a set of the L-Ns.  As a side benefit, I haven't had to sharpen half as much!

Good luck with whatever you decide on!
Russ

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2013, 03:21 AM »
Thanks for all the latest replies, you are all helping me a lot in my decision making. I sharpened up a blue handled stanley (6 years old vintage) and it dulled very quickly when I used it to cut a mortise. After this experience I don't want a soft chisel. On the other hand I don't want to wreck an expensive chisel cutting mortises. Are LN suitable for this operation using a mallet? (I have ordered a Thor nylon hammer following the recommendation of Paul Sellers). Or would the PM-V11 be a better choice for this? I may do as Woodguy suggests and get LN for intricate/less aggressive work and something cheaper but still reasonably hard for heavy duty chopping.

As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Chisels
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2013, 03:29 AM »
Thanks for all the latest replies, you are all helping me a lot in my decision making. I sharpened up a blue handled stanley (6 years old vintage) and it dulled very quickly when I used it to cut a mortise. After this experience I don't want a soft chisel. On the other hand I don't want to wreck an expensive chisel cutting mortises. Are LN suitable for this operation using a mallet? (I have ordered a Thor nylon hammer following the recommendation of Paul Sellers). Or would the PM-V11 be a better choice for this? I may do as Woodguy suggests and get LN for intricate/less aggressive work and something cheaper but still reasonably hard for heavy duty chopping.

As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?

I have a Tormek. "Quicker" is probably not a good thing to call the Tormek, but it does sharpen a lot of things well. If you get some good chisels it's worth becoming proficient with waterstones (practice on something you don't love too much).

I wouldn't use a worksharp on anything very expensive personally.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6620
Re: Chisels
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2013, 03:31 AM »
Thanks for all the latest replies, you are all helping me a lot in my decision making. I sharpened up a blue handled stanley (6 years old vintage) and it dulled very quickly when I used it to cut a mortise. After this experience I don't want a soft chisel. On the other hand I don't want to wreck an expensive chisel cutting mortises. Are LN suitable for this operation using a mallet? (I have ordered a Thor nylon hammer following the recommendation of Paul Sellers). Or would the PM-V11 be a better choice for this? I may do as Woodguy suggests and get LN for intricate/less aggressive work and something cheaper but still reasonably hard for heavy duty chopping.

As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?

Yeah I would shy away from soft metal chisels and hard metal chisels that's my experiences ur best of with inbetween hardness.   If you go for one of the extremes all does it do your head in lol that's what I have learnt lol.

I use diamond stones as they sharpen blades on the job. quicker than stones plus they stay flat.

I use a tormek t7 to grind them back down and sharpen them also.


« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 05:39 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3522
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Chisels
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2013, 08:11 AM »
I may do as Woodguy suggests and get LN for intricate/less aggressive work and something cheaper but still reasonably hard for heavy duty chopping.

I would concur, I would use my LN dovetails etc. and get something else for heavy duty chopping. I haven't tried the LV's yet but I'm tempted.

As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?

Tormek and stones for fine tuning. The Tormek is a great system if you can swing it.
Tim

Offline farms100

  • Posts: 133
    • please visit our woodworking guild
Re: Chisels
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2013, 08:57 AM »
I shoudl add that almost all my work is furniture, not carpentry. Having different flavors of is useful for many reasons. When you have to pare and fit joints, is where hand fit is critical. most of the time my goto chisel is a 1 inch marples i've had for 20+ years I like the large blade length

regarding steel softness, its a trade off between sharpening speed and edge life. I keep wood and leather strops charged with compound and retouch the edge  often.
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2658
Re: Chisels
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2013, 09:10 AM »
Thanks for all the latest replies, you are all helping me a lot in my decision making. I sharpened up a blue handled stanley (6 years old vintage) and it dulled very quickly when I used it to cut a mortise. After this experience I don't want a soft chisel. On the other hand I don't want to wreck an expensive chisel cutting mortises. Are LN suitable for this operation using a mallet? (I have ordered a Thor nylon hammer following the recommendation of Paul Sellers). Or would the PM-V11 be a better choice for this? I may do as Woodguy suggests and get LN for intricate/less aggressive work and something cheaper but still reasonably hard for heavy duty chopping.

As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?



I have a Tormek. "Quicker" is probably not a good thing to call the Tormek, but it does sharpen a lot of things well. If you get some good chisels it's worth becoming proficient with waterstones (practice on something you don't love too much).

I wouldn't use a worksharp on anything very expensive personally.

Yes Tormek system is very good, but Kev is right, it is not quick. But great for tune ups.

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Offline j123j

  • Posts: 72
Re: Chisels
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 05:18 PM »
Thanks for all the latest replies, you are all helping me a lot in my decision making. I sharpened up a blue handled stanley (6 years old vintage) and it dulled very quickly when I used it to cut a mortise. After this experience I don't want a soft chisel. On the other hand I don't want to wreck an expensive chisel cutting mortises. Are LN suitable for this operation using a mallet? (I have ordered a Thor nylon hammer following the recommendation of Paul Sellers). Or would the PM-V11 be a better choice for this? I may do as Woodguy suggests and get LN for intricate/less aggressive work and something cheaper but still reasonably hard for heavy duty chopping.

As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?

Yeah I would shy away from soft metal chisels and hard metal chisels that's my experiences ur best of with inbetween hardness.   If you got for one extreme all does it do your head in lol that's what I have learnt lol.



Are you really talking about hardness? as in measured in the rockwell scale? I dont follow.

As a pointer for JMB, I believe your H&S chisels are M2 hss and yes they are diffucult to sharpen but they are tough, really tough.
If your edges chip then increase your bevel angle, 30-34 degrees for heavy chopping depending on the steel and the hardening process.

For chisels I would recomend plain carbon steel, but hss is sometimes needed if the chisels are used on hard and abrasive woods (teak, wenge...)

For beater chisels you cannot fault the narex chisels.

For chopping I like japanise chisels with simple high carbon steel blades (good ones, not cheap) and for paring I use japanese and blue spruce (a2) chisels.

The Lie-nielsen chisels are very good allround chisels, if I were to only have one set of  chisels they would be the LNs.
The veritas chisels are also very good, O1 or PM-V11 but I dont like the handles as much as the lie-nielsens but thats a personal thing.

Offline tonylumps

  • Posts: 51
Re: Chisels
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2013, 07:09 PM »
When all of my 40 year old Stanley chisels started to look ragged I started to look at all of those Exotic chisels until I saw the prices. I just could not see hitting a hidden stable with a 150.00 chisel.I went and bought a Tormek instead of the chisels.It was almost the same price as a set of Japanese chisels.My old Stanleys are sharper now then when I bought them. And every Knife in the house cuts now to Boot.

Offline j123j

  • Posts: 72
Re: Chisels
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2013, 08:02 PM »
Yeah I understand your reasoning, but even a 150$ chisel can be re-sharpened  ;D

But yeah, if you're unsure whats inside the wood then you often opt to use the cheapest chisels that will get the job done.

Nobody needs 150$/piece chisels, and everyone could get by with cheap chisels but some people (myself included) appreciate the qualities of the high-grade chisels and are willing to pay an eye watering price for something like a set of paring chisels which are a real pleasure to use.

For me its easier to achieve a higher quality with these expensive and rather specialized tools, but in the end of the day someone who has way more skill could do even better work with tools that cost the fraction of my tools...

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3522
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Chisels
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2013, 08:15 PM »

For chopping I like japanise chisels with simple high carbon steel blades (good ones, not cheap) and for paring I use japanese



What kind of Japanese chisels do you use?
Tim

Offline j123j

  • Posts: 72
Re: Chisels
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2013, 08:27 PM »
For bench work I have japanese bench chisels (oire-nomi), various brands gathered over the years.
But I am going to buy a set from a single smith soon, already have the smith decided just need to get the order in.

For most paring I use japanese chisels, 400mm (16") long, very thin blades. Mine are made by Ouchi.

+My timber framing chisels (chu-tataki-nomi, atsu-nomi, anaya-nomi), I dont have any of the huge slicks because I really havent found a need for them yet.

When im paring small pieces I have Dave Jeskes dovetail paring chisels which are very light and nimble in my hands.
I've got a few sizes of these 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2". These can be even hit with a mallet (lightly).
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 08:30 PM by j123j »

Offline Festool Fishy

  • Posts: 147
Re: Chisels
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 04:16 PM »
Hey Cliff
did you make up your mind and buy any chisels ?

cheers fishy

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2349
Re: Chisels
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 04:39 PM »
I have purchased a number of chisels over the years and all of them will give you a great cut when 1st sharpened.  However, only my Japanese chisels will retain the sharp edge long enough to finish a project.  The Japanese chisels that I own and hollow back very hard cutting edge forged together with thicker mild steel that absorbs most of the cutting shock.

Quality relates to ease of use and edge retention in my experience.

Jack

Offline Davej

  • Posts: 630
Re: Chisels
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2013, 05:03 PM »
Quality japanese steel is the best in the world , wether its a chisel or  any kind of blade , the way they combine different hardness of steel within a blade is sublime craftsmanship . in my humble opinion anyway .
I dont mind growing old but i refuse to grow up

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2013, 05:10 PM »
What i've done so far is buy a Tormek T-7 and ordered a set of 6 Narex 8116 cabinet makers chisels. I spent last Sunday trying to optimise my scary sharp/waterstones technique without complete success.  I had been having problems with the diamond plate sticking to the waterstones when flattening them and then the waterstones moving all over the place. I decided to make a waterstone holder which helped up to a point. I was finding myself having to sharpen the primary bevel of my crappy (newish) Stanley chisels after each small mortise and I was having to use really coarse grit sandpaper (even 180) and going through several grades to 1200. Then I was having the problem with a big jump in grit to 6000 for the waterstone (by this time for the secondary bevel). I also found that the Veritas honing guide's secondary bevel feature wasn't giving enough difference to the angle to make the secondary bevel a quick operation, particularly with a relatively fine waterstone. I was taking 5 or 10 minutes to blunt the chisel and 30 mins to restore it. This then led me to buy the Tormek. I was also considering buying some good chisels like LN or PM-V11 but couldn't get any good deals on them so decided to buy a cheap set now and a better set later when I've learnt a bit more about using a chisel and also sharpening them. I love the Tormek and can completely understand why many people have recommended them. I too ended up with a cut on my forearm through testing the sharpness (the moderators on here should ban people from reporting these tests as it is perpetuating the injuries  [smile]). I haven't given up on the waterstones method as I still see a lot of merit in it but it is nice to have an alternative method.

I find chisels to be a really interesting tool. Amazingly satisfying to use when sharp but very difficult to choose when looking for a consensus of opinion on forums (except for the really high end products such as LN.

I think that when my finances have recovered (just bought a cms base unit, saw insert, router insert, CSX, Tormek, Narex chisel set, mortise gauge, digital height gauge, dividers and Knew Concepts saw!) I will buy the PM-V11 set and one or two mortise chisels.

T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline farms100

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Re: Chisels
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2013, 06:28 PM »
I have purchased a number of chisels over the years and all of them will give you a great cut when 1st sharpened.  However, only my Japanese chisels will retain the sharp edge long enough to finish a project.  The Japanese chisels that I own and hollow back very hard cutting edge forged together with thicker mild steel that absorbs most of the cutting shock.

Quality relates to ease of use and edge retention in my experience.

Jack

sharpening is a core skill. Not letting an edge get dull enough you have to grind it and start over is key.

that being said chopping dovetails in oak and maple are tough on any chisel I don't care what steel its made of.
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2349
Re: Chisels
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2013, 08:00 PM »
I have purchased a number of chisels over the years and all of them will give you a great cut when 1st sharpened.  However, only my Japanese chisels will retain the sharp edge long enough to finish a project.  The Japanese chisels that I own and hollow back very hard cutting edge forged together with thicker mild steel that absorbs most of the cutting shock.

Quality relates to ease of use and edge retention in my experience.

Jack

sharpening is a core skill. Not letting an edge get dull enough you have to grind it and start over is key.

that being said chopping dovetails in oak and maple are tough on any chisel I don't care what steel its made of.

I agree but, the frequency of resharpening after cutting dovetails in oak, teak, rosewood and other hard woods shows the need for a quality steel tool.

Jack

Offline TinyTiger

  • Posts: 83
Re: Chisels
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2013, 10:48 PM »
As a side note, do you guys use waterstones for sharpening or something quicker like a Tormek or Worksharp?

I use a combination of the above.  I flatten the backs with a coarse diamond stone and 1000, 4000, and 8000 water stones.  Then I sharpen the bevel with a Tormek, strop the bevel with the Tormek, and finally remove the burr formed by running the back a couple of times over the 8000 waterstone again.  It seems to work really well for me.
Russ

Offline farms100

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Re: Chisels
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 07:08 AM »
i have the jet clone of the tormek, and find its very slow, also having to fill and empty the water bath is annoying.

I use 6 inch VS bench grinder, very course diamond stone, water stones, and of course i strop frequently
eastern mass guild of woodworkers. http://www.emgw.org

Offline cgraham

  • Posts: 57
Re: Chisels
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 08:51 AM »
The latest edition of wood talk has some content about Japanese chisels. Worth listening if you want more info.

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2349
Re: Chisels
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2013, 11:23 AM »
The latest edition of wood talk has some content about Japanese chisels. Worth listening if you want more info.

Keep in mind that all Japanese chisels are not equal in quality.

Jack

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2013, 04:01 AM »
I thought I'd post an update on this topic and some reflections on my decisions.

The Narex chisels arrived a couple of days ago. They appear to be nicely made and are very light. The backs took ages to flatten. There are some areas that are so recessed that I gave up trying to level them (in the end I just made sure that most of it was flat and the an area and inch or so just behind the edge). I tried using the edge of the Tormek to flatten the backs but found this both very slow and difficult to control. In the end I concluded that a coarse diamond honing plate was the best (DMT 8" in my case). I also made the mistake of trying sandpaper on glass and trying to hold it flat. The trouble with this is you can get raised areas that abrade the area around the edge which is the last thing you want. I managed to pretty much wreck the back of one of the chisels using the Tormek. I was applying a lot of force and moving it around and one edge caught and I ended up with a bevel along the edge. I tried various high risk procedures which made it even (and much) worse. In the end I adopted a more sensible approach (probably took me a couple of hours!) and managed to flatten an inch or so behind the edge and so it will do for a while. A word of caution about diamond plates: they dont feel abrasive but they sure as **** are sharp! I was flattening the back of a chisel and didn't notice that the tip of my index finger was running along the top edge of the plate. It suddenly felt hot and I looked at it  and it appeared to be blistered - then the blood started flowing. I had basically sanded the end of my finger off! Its not as bad as it sounds - there's only one match head sized area thats full depth skin removal. I used one of the Tormek plasters (Excellent plasters BTW).

I put 30 deg bevels on the chisels thinking I would renew this bevel everytime I sharpen (as opposed to honing). I endorse Tinytiger's suggestion of using the waterstone on the back of the chisel rather than the Tormek. I think it is far too easy to round over the edge using the honing wheel. I will experiment with using the Tormek to hone the bevel as opposed to using the waterstone. Its just occurred to me that it would be good to have a microadjustable honing guide where you can incrementally adjust the bevel angle to make sure that it is the waterstone that puts the final edge on the chisel rather than the Tormek created one. The microbevel feature on the Veritas mk 2 is a little crude for this I think?

On reflection, I would rather have paid extra for the LN or even maybe the PM-V11 chisels than spend virtually a whole day sorting out these Narex's (even discounting my errors). Its all been a useful learning experience though.

Yesterday I spotted (gumtree) and bought a brand new (albeit with a couple of surface rust spots on the side through storage in the damp) Veritas Medium shoulder plane plus 3 new Sorby mortise chisels (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2) (Cab handled 332s) for £155 delivered so I can practise my chisel skills some more.

Thanks to everybody for the suggestions.

T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline JayStPeter

  • Posts: 363
Re: Chisels
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2013, 10:57 AM »
That is a learning experience.  Something we all go through I think.  I've decided to leave the fettling to others and just stick with LN and Veritas for my hand tools.

I'll admit that my favorite handplane is a Stanley 605 I spent about 15hrs. fixing up.  But, I'm really not interested in doing that again ... BTDT.
Jay St. Peter

Offline RobBob

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Re: Chisels
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2013, 11:07 AM »
This might help:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 01:51 PM by rljatl »

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 458
Re: Chisels
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2013, 11:24 AM »
Quote
It just occurred to me that it would be good to have a microadjustable honing guide where you can incrementally adjust the bevel angle to make sure that it is the waterstone that puts the final edge on the chisel rather than the Tormek created one. The microbevel feature on the Veritas mk 2 is a little crude for this I think?

I just bought one of these devices from VSC Tools, which does exactly what you describe:


http://vsctools.com/product-details/sharpening-jig/

There are several videos on the site that show the jig in operation.

Offline Festool Fishy

  • Posts: 147
Re: Chisels
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 04:13 AM »
Hey Cliff
this makes for good reading just in case your short of it and need more confusion !!

cheers Peter

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 514
Re: Chisels
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 04:24 AM »
Hi Peter, I discovered that myself a few days ago. It certainly shows the benefits of high quality chisels.
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.