Author Topic: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?  (Read 17042 times)

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Offline Tom Bainbridge

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second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« on: July 19, 2008, 03:09 PM »
the current price of a veritas low angle block plane is 300 us dollars in england            (at 2 us dollars to the pound)

mine cost me 170 dollars (same ratio) only 18 months ago

madness????????????????????????



no........... if you keep it sharp its the quickest tool on the planet for small / one off second fix work

do not dismiss hand tools

i can shoot an external 45mm door with my block plane
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

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Offline Justin F.

  • Posts: 311
  • Louisiana, USA
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2008, 03:19 PM »
DD --- what is the advantage of a low-angled block plane as compared to a "regular" block plane? 



Justin
" The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. "

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2008, 03:40 PM »
in very simple terms a low angle block plane has a bed angle of 12 and a half degrees

a standard block plane has twice the bed angle around 25 degrees


a low angle block plane can deal with end grain, more easily than standard planes

to cut end grain a blade has to be very sharp and be low angle

a standard block plane may be just as sharp but "judders" (cuts too deeply) on end grain and breaks out




im rather waiting for per or bob to help me with a more errudite / simple explanation
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 03:48 AM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Justin F.

  • Posts: 311
  • Louisiana, USA
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2008, 03:45 PM »
Makes sense --- thanks DD ---- are you happy with your Veritas plane(s) ?  All I have is a cheap Stanley that I have set up to the best of my ability and have got it to sing as good as it can (and not bad really)  -- but I'm always looking to move up to something better. 


Justin
" The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. "

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 03:52 PM »
there aint nothing wrong with a stanley (i had a fixed mouth one) just keep the blade sharp

i used one for a long time, then i made a mistake

......................... i used a veritas



Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Steve Jones

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  • Austin, TX US
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 04:51 PM »
DD, Is one to assume from your comments that you felt the difference to be so great that you tossed the stanleys aside like soiled toilet paper?

Being a (up to now) reasonably happy ocaisionally shoving a well tuned stanley about, I'm now thinking there might be something better, my new tool itch is inspired by the fact that I trust your judgement and experience, tell us more.
Steve Jones

AdapTableTool, Inc.
adaptabletool@gmail.com

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 05:34 PM »
being as careful as possible not to denigrate stanley tools a huge number of carpenters have made their living with them for more than three generations on both sides of the atlantic

my experience, before getting the veritas bug, was with a standard stanley block plane, which is a different beast to a low angle block plane



the fixed mouth i now find is limiting (altough i didnt notice it until i had the veritas)

the low angle of 12 and a half degrees is better for endgrain and man made sheet materials (altough stanley do also make one)

the veritas blade is thicker than the stanley so is less prone to chatter (but wasnt noticable until i had the veritas)

the veritas blade is harder (they say so)   it does however hold an edge longer (but wasnt noticable until i had the veritas)

the veritas is heavier than the stanley (but it isnt that noticable until you carry it in your tool belt all day)

as with ALL planes dead weight improves the quality of cut and reduces the chatter in use

the veritas works happily on the pull/draw stroke (like a japanese plane) as on the push stroke (the way it was designed)

i never did try the stanley on the pull stroke so cannot compare the relative merits



all these minor things (put together) make the veritas a better (altough slightly heavier) tool, in own personal view
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 03:50 AM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Justin F.

  • Posts: 311
  • Louisiana, USA
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 05:43 PM »
being as careful as possible not to denigrate stanley tools a huge number of carpenters have made their living with them for more than two generations on both sides of the atlantic


Just to be clear, in my post I wasn't trying to align Stanley tools with cheapness, but more just saying that the plane (fixed mouthed) I have seems to be cheap --- I've seen other Stanley block planes that seem to be much better made (both old and new).  This one is one of their low cost models that seems to have been produced during a period of low quality control.  But, it being a chunk of metal and a blade, with a little work in tuning it up, it performs admirably.

Justin
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 05:45 PM by jaegerhund »
" The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. "

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2008, 05:52 PM »
if it performs admirably (admirably is FAR better than ok) with the care you put into tuning it

keep it and use it, do not throw it away

and dont spend the huge amounts of dosh you now need for the veritas
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Eli

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2008, 07:44 PM »
Hate to tell you this DD

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32685&cat=1,41182

It's still only US$129 in the states.
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline Per Swenson

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2008, 08:33 PM »
DD,

No you translated perfectly.

Here in the States we got a guy named Sy Sims

who sells suits. His motto is a educated consumer is our best customer.

Well, with that bit of madison ave in mind I present LN

and this model in particular.

10123-0

95 bucks, American.

Per
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 08:34 PM by Per Swenson »
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Per Swenson

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2008, 08:36 PM »
So DD,

When are the good folks over there going to take up the torch's and pitch forks?

This is no way to run a global economy.

P.

PS

And this second fix business, sounds like what Keith Richards does just before work.

Just sayin in my myopic Murrican way.

Per
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 08:38 PM by Per Swenson »
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline kit camp

  • Posts: 52
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2008, 10:15 PM »
Per,

I have that little bronze gem and love it, but I have to sheepishly say I like this one even better: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46791&cat=1,41182,48942

I takes the bumps better than the bronze body. One of mine got really bent when a student knocked it off the bench onto concrete floor. In the hand they have pretty much the same feel.

I have three or four block planes and rotate through them as they need sharpening... They are a bit of a fetish item for me...

- Kit

Offline Per Swenson

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2008, 10:31 PM »
Kit,

Thats cool, no really I think both Veritas a LN are all good,

I thought maybe DD good get a better deal if n he called LN.

But what do I know of oceanic commerce.

About this sheepish stuff.

I would have sheepishly told the student the tuition just went up.

Complaints? take it up with the big bad wolf. ;D

Per
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
  • Limey Carpenter
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2008, 04:04 AM »
per that LN is a beautiful block

thanks for the pitchforks and torches idea



you will not be shocked if i tell you that the Lie Nielson importers have exactly the same pricing policy as veritas importers

the LN low angle block is 220 dollars here





ps have just found the veritas in two other suppliers at the same price about 220 dollars

BUT the previous price of 300 dollars also stands, but it would seem its a sell on merchant
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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  • Limey Carpenter
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2008, 04:18 AM »
secondfix carpentry is what you incorrectly term "trim carpentry"

im saving the "english" language against the "great satan"  8)

this is a one man crusade to convert you to "english"   ::)



while we are at it

i request that "you lot" immediatly stop calling it baseboard and use the correct term skirting board  ;D

and casing should also be corrected to architrave  :-\


that should start a transatlantic war   ;)
 

says he lighting the fuse  ;D
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 04:46 AM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2008, 05:02 AM »
i have to say i am also slightly concerned about the

animal welfare AND spelling "issues" in american carpentry  :P

youve used so many dados they are now extinct in europe

and you are breeding rabbets like no tomorrow

« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 06:04 AM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Per Swenson

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2008, 06:45 AM »
Nonsense

DD, Being Murrican we don't second fix nuthin, we do it right the first time.

we are not the type to be skirting a issue, we will never run out of dados, Italy is full of them.

Finally, if we talked to our clients referencing the architrave, they would think

I was talking about a dance party where you could buy ecstasy and maybe hook up with a

someone fresh out of drafting school. Then again, with the way I mumble in real life,

they would be confused to exactly where they should put the pin ball machine.

Call me a silly bugger and tell their friends I'm daft.

Per

Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2008, 07:16 AM »
well im nearly on the floor, lmbo  ;D




for exactness sake, so nobody is confused as to my present location  ;)


im on the ground floor (where the front door is)

NOT upstairs on the first floor where the bedrooms are    ::)
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2008, 07:23 AM »
im pleased to hear that dados arnt totally extinct in europe

but notice that youve baseboarded your way round the leporidae breeding programme (or is that program  ;)  )

Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
  • Limey Carpenter
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2008, 07:30 AM »
just to deliberatly confuse matters  ;D

i live in a two storey house (not a bungalow) but it only has a ground floor and a first floor
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 07:35 AM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Per Swenson

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2008, 08:33 AM »
Oh? Ok.

Lets talk about the English's prodigious use of the letter E.

I have a theory, a theory I might add contrived by to much forced

viewing of Master Piece Theater after tea with Mum.

That's a lie, more like to much Monty Python.

What ever, DD just so you know, I used to have a great Aunt who called Bath home.

She sent me lots of books. That is germane here because as a lad I struggled with

your version of  English grammar and when I thought I was smart and wrote it that way in my

 school papers I was labeled incorrigible. Not to worry, same teacher told me there was no such place

as the Kalahari desert. But I digress.

The extra E thing.

You guys ever hear yourselves?

Two guys in a pub.

E did what?
Ell, E did wha E 'ad to
E beat err then?
I, E did.
I, eel be up da tems wif out a paddle, E will.

You see where this is going?  You guys can't live with out abusing that E.

Is it because its the first letter in England?

I will leave that answer for stronger minds.

Might even be Edwardian.

Anyway, feel free to pass this info on to the Queens ministry of the letter E

noting that its just one more reason for you guys not to adopt the Euro.

Per
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 08:35 AM by Per Swenson »
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2008, 09:21 AM »
Eeeeeeeee, did you hear that murrican geeza Per ?

Eee i did

do you think E's taking the  out of us ?

Eee you could be right there

oh, E's a right cheeky monkey

anyway....... do murricans have geeza's ?

no............ its got too many e's in it for a murrican




Ere, is that an empty glass

Eee, it is

then get some Euros out of your wallet,  its your round geez    ;)



« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 09:46 AM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Tinker

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2008, 09:57 AM »
Me mither 'ad a tile on 'er ki'chn wall.
It ad picchus o geraniums on it, it did.
On it were the wurds:

Life ain't all ya wants
but its all ya gots
so stick a geranium in yer ats
an laugh an be appy

Tinker  (In Ireland, an I b'leve in England the same may be true, "a Tinkerrr is nothin butt a bumm"  >>> told to me many moons ago by a high school principal who happened to be from Ireland)

Oh well, I'm stuck wi th name
so i'l jus laff an be appy
pour me another suds  (or wha iver ya calls it over theah)
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2008, 12:13 PM »
apparantly there isnt a ministry of the letter E

so I complained to the french language purity law commission



they replied...........  Bugger off, rost bif

....................... ???  :-\

« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 12:18 PM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Justin F.

  • Posts: 311
  • Louisiana, USA
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2008, 12:26 PM »
apparantly there isnt a ministry of the letter E

so I complained to the french language purity law commission



they replied...........  Bugger off, rost bif

....................... ???  :-\



Man -- the French are weird (I should know, I have a good bit of he Frog genes swimming through my veins)---- do you guys really eat that much roast beef ?  And why is that an insult?  Mon dieu !    :D




Justin
" The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. "

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2008, 12:32 PM »
no the french never make sense

our national dish is chicken tikka masala

and we've exported it to india




the french see it as an insult because they believe, incorrectly, that we always cook the beef to within an inch of heck
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 01:26 PM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Per Swenson

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2008, 03:16 PM »
Oh here we go...

I pile on the English.

The English Pile on the French.

We all pile on the French.

First let me point out to those here who might not be aware..DD ain't kidding.

Today in France there is a movement dedicated to restoring the "purity" of the French language by removing foreign words

from the vocabulary, such as microchip and hamburger. The French language is also spoken in the Canadian province of

Quebec, French Guiana, Madagascar, Haiti, Indochina, N.W. Africa and parts of Belgium and Switzerland, and is a popular

second language choice in the United States, after Spanish.

Sounds stoopid  No? Like something even the Poles

wouldn't consider. This 100% Nationalistic crap has gone on for years, everywhere.

Quebec and Montreal (we are coming for your natural resources shortly) has yapped the chit for years

At least here in the land of the Free the Home, of the brave,"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Thanks Emma, we would never ever consider doing something

as blatantly stoopid as that.

Never mind the nationalism though, the real issue here is

Boiling meat is not cooking.

Ok DD?  Anything but that topic, as you will have more in your mouth besides food. ;D

Per
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 03:18 PM by Per Swenson »
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2008, 03:31 PM »
its ok per, im VERY good at foot in mouth

im also a world expert in digging holes for myself (without the need for a JCB)


just to proove it....................

whats this boiling meat job?    ;D
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 03:40 PM by dirtydeeds »
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Tom Bainbridge

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  • Limey Carpenter
Re: second fix (trim carpentry) madness ?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2008, 04:04 PM »
of course that well known dish

the hot dog

isnt boiled

is it.....................................   ?    ;)
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds