Author Topic: Sharpening methods question  (Read 5270 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3299
Sharpening methods question
« on: January 05, 2017, 09:37 AM »
The other day I nicked the blade on my jointer plane.  Since I hone using a microbevel, set on the Veritas MKii honing guide, I decided just to reestablish the whole primary bevel as a way of getting rid of the nick.  I don't have a grinder, so I did it with XXCoarse DMT Diamond stone.  It took a while, but I did eventually take off enough material to remove the nick.  At 1200 I started putting in a small secondary bevel again.  By the time I got to the highest grit, I had a huge burr on the back.  I know in freehand sharpening some people lap the back of the chisel a few strokes on every grit after they've done the bevel on that stone.  But because I use the veritas jig, and I employ the ruler trick, the way I  learned was to do the back just on the final grit, and only after I had taken it out of the jig.  But it just felt wrong lapping the back with such a large burr on the 8000 Shapton stone.  And indeed, when I did some test passes with the blade, although it was otherwise razor sharp, it was leaving a small ridge/track in the middle of the blade, likely from a place where the burr had snapped off (it was in a different place on the blade from where the nick was, so I'm sure it wasn't simply a question of me not having removed enough material to work out the nick).

So I guess my question is in a situation like this, where I'm going to be removing a lot of material and creating a large burr, at what point should I start lapping the back of the blade?  I'm loathe to remove and then reseat the blade in the jig multiple times during the same sharpening session, but I guess there might not be any way around it, as it's pretty difficult to lap the back while the blade is still in the jig.
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Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 555
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 10:00 AM »
The other day I nicked the blade on my jointer plane.  Since I hone using a microbevel, set on the Veritas MKii honing guide, I decided just to reestablish the whole primary bevel as a way of getting rid of the nick.  I don't have a grinder, so I did it with XXCoarse DMT Diamond stone.  It took a while, but I did eventually take off enough material to remove the nick.  At 1200 I started putting in a small secondary bevel again.  By the time I got to the highest grit, I had a huge burr on the back.  I know in freehand sharpening some people lap the back of the chisel a few strokes on every grit after they've done the bevel on that stone.  But because I use the veritas jig, and I employ the ruler trick, the way I  learned was to do the back just on the final grit, and only after I had taken it out of the jig.  But it just felt wrong lapping the back with such a large burr on the 8000 Shapton stone.  And indeed, when I did some test passes with the blade, although it was otherwise razor sharp, it was leaving a small ridge/track in the middle of the blade, likely from a place where the burr had snapped off (it was in a different place on the blade from where the nick was, so I'm sure it wasn't simply a question of me not having removed enough material to work out the nick).

So I guess my question is in a situation like this, where I'm going to be removing a lot of material and creating a large burr, at what point should I start lapping the back of the blade?  I'm loathe to remove and then reseat the blade in the jig multiple times during the same sharpening session, but I guess there might not be any way around it, as it's pretty difficult to lap the back while the blade is still in the jig.

I've been thinking about the same issue lately.  Once I've gone to the trouble of polishing the back of the blade, I don't want to be always removing burrs at coarser grits - that just puts grooves in the back of the blade that I've already gone to a lot of trouble to remove.  I've wanted to test out just continuing to hone to whatever grit I used to polish the back, and then removing the burr, but I haven't had to regrind a bevel lately.

Offline JJ Wavra

  • Posts: 236
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 10:25 AM »
When I commission a a new tool, hollow grinding then putting the micro bevel on, I sharpen the tool as I always would at least twice.  Meaning that once the tool is set up, in this case the primary bevel has been reworked significantly, the large burr represents a rather week edge. So to condition this edge to be durable take your normal sharpening process and do it at least two times. For you I gather that you use a micro-bevel and the ruler trick so do that twice on the 8000 stone.  This will help it garner the strength and refinement that is needed for the blade to cut well.  Planes and bench chisels are quite easy in this regard compared to carving tools.  With carving tools I go back and forth quite a bit sharpening then cutting then stropping often needing to strop around 40 times to get the cutting edge necessary.

hope this makes sense.

Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1053
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 12:19 PM »
I was taught to remove the burr with each grit I use.  It should only take a few passes so doesn't add a lot of time.  My methods may be wrong technically, but work for me.
Bryan

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Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1284
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 12:45 PM »
I was taught to remove the burr with each grit I use.  It should only take a few passes so doesn't add a lot of time.  My methods may be wrong technically, but work for me.


That's the way I sharpen blades and chisels as well.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 12:52 PM »
I was taught to remove the burr with each grit I use.  It should only take a few passes so doesn't add a lot of time.  My methods may be wrong technically, but work for me.

What do you do, then, to remove the scratches on the back of the blade that are now made by coarser grits than the back was originally lapped with? I think it's possible that a couple of strokes to remove the burr at each grit may not remove all of the coarser grit marks.
Randy

Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1053
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2017, 03:07 PM »
I was taught to remove the burr with each grit I use.  It should only take a few passes so doesn't add a lot of time.  My methods may be wrong technically, but work for me.

What do you do, then, to remove the scratches on the back of the blade that are now made by coarser grits than the back was originally lapped with? I think it's possible that a couple of strokes to remove the burr at each grit may not remove all of the coarser grit marks.

Never gave it much thought, I really don't think 2 or 3 strokes would make any difference.  Plus I am working up through the grits again. My water stones are 800, 1000, 4000 and 8000. 
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3299
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 03:12 PM »
This was my exact concern.  But I will try @JJ Wavra suggestion next time I have to reestablish the primary bevel.

The other day I nicked the blade on my jointer plane.  Since I hone using a microbevel, set on the Veritas MKii honing guide, I decided just to reestablish the whole primary bevel as a way of getting rid of the nick.  I don't have a grinder, so I did it with XXCoarse DMT Diamond stone.  It took a while, but I did eventually take off enough material to remove the nick.  At 1200 I started putting in a small secondary bevel again.  By the time I got to the highest grit, I had a huge burr on the back.  I know in freehand sharpening some people lap the back of the chisel a few strokes on every grit after they've done the bevel on that stone.  But because I use the veritas jig, and I employ the ruler trick, the way I  learned was to do the back just on the final grit, and only after I had taken it out of the jig.  But it just felt wrong lapping the back with such a large burr on the 8000 Shapton stone.  And indeed, when I did some test passes with the blade, although it was otherwise razor sharp, it was leaving a small ridge/track in the middle of the blade, likely from a place where the burr had snapped off (it was in a different place on the blade from where the nick was, so I'm sure it wasn't simply a question of me not having removed enough material to work out the nick).

So I guess my question is in a situation like this, where I'm going to be removing a lot of material and creating a large burr, at what point should I start lapping the back of the blade?  I'm loathe to remove and then reseat the blade in the jig multiple times during the same sharpening session, but I guess there might not be any way around it, as it's pretty difficult to lap the back while the blade is still in the jig.

I've been thinking about the same issue lately.  Once I've gone to the trouble of polishing the back of the blade, I don't want to be always removing burrs at coarser grits - that just puts grooves in the back of the blade that I've already gone to a lot of trouble to remove.  I've wanted to test out just continuing to hone to whatever grit I used to polish the back, and then removing the burr, but I haven't had to regrind a bevel lately.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline JJ Wavra

  • Posts: 236
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 04:43 PM »
With the ruler trick I don't see a need to hone on each grit.  I use a 16,000 shapton as my final stone, around 1 micron size is where I aim for most of my tools final edge, and if there is no micro bevel from either grinding it away or it is a new tool I may take a couple of swipes on a 1,000 grit stone.  However, the shaptons cut so fast that if you take 10 or so swipes I get a bevel on the 16,000.  I move the tool forward and backward as to push the blades metal into the cutting edge making it a stronger.  If you only pull or move side to side you don't get as strong of an edge. This is why when I sharpen I also go forwards and back. 

For those that have a polished back I would not take that to any grit that is lower than the final polish on the tool.  This is where it is so important, in my view, that you have a flat back. I should clarify you don't necessarily have to have a completely flat back, IE a japanese style chisel, but you have to have the area near the tip of the tool flat so that you can remove the burr.  I put the tool down heal to toe then move the tool backwards removing the burr.  Then proceed to move the tool forward and back ten or so times.  If the tool was extremely worn you can also take the tool to a soft wood, I have basswood around all the time,  and run the tools cutting edge through the corner of the wood where long grain meets end grain.  Then just hone the tool again on your finest grit. This conditions the edge further and should help last a while before sharpening. 

Not sure if was clear from the first post I made but I don't just use the final stone twice if there was a nick or new tool.  I actually go through my entire sharpening process twice.  I sharpen free hand for almost everything so that takes maybe 2 minutes.  Also, once I have the edge I want I try to never remove it. Here is what I mean.  For a bench chisel here is my standard operation.  I hollow grind at 25 degrees then I put a secondary bevel on slightly above that with a 1,000 shapton.  Then I put a tertiary bevel on around 30 degrees with the 16,000 shapton.  Then when I go to resharpen I only use the 1,000 shapton a couple of strokes to shrink the tertiary bevel down to a small size but not gone.  Then I go back to 16,000 stone and hone the tertiary bevel which goes quickly because l reduced the size with the 1,000 grit stone. Now I have a great edge and when the secondary bevel gets too large I go back to the grinder and remove the material but not the cutting edge so I don't have to start all over again.

The modern steels on good chisels and irons are very strong and can hold up to this but some tools with softer steel you may have to change the cutting angle higher.

Hope this helps.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3299
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2017, 05:24 PM »
Thanks for the detailed description of your process.  Do you jump from 1000 to 16000 without intermediate grits on the Shapton?  I go 1200, 8000 and then for some blades I will use 1 micron diamond paste on a piece of hard maple.


With the ruler trick I don't see a need to hone on each grit.  I use a 16,000 shapton as my final stone, around 1 micron size is where I aim for most of my tools final edge, and if there is no micro bevel from either grinding it away or it is a new tool I may take a couple of swipes on a 1,000 grit stone.  However, the shaptons cut so fast that if you take 10 or so swipes I get a bevel on the 16,000.  I move the tool forward and backward as to push the blades metal into the cutting edge making it a stronger.  If you only pull or move side to side you don't get as strong of an edge. This is why when I sharpen I also go forwards and back. 

For those that have a polished back I would not take that to any grit that is lower than the final polish on the tool.  This is where it is so important, in my view, that you have a flat back. I should clarify you don't necessarily have to have a completely flat back, IE a japanese style chisel, but you have to have the area near the tip of the tool flat so that you can remove the burr.  I put the tool down heal to toe then move the tool backwards removing the burr.  Then proceed to move the tool forward and back ten or so times.  If the tool was extremely worn you can also take the tool to a soft wood, I have basswood around all the time,  and run the tools cutting edge through the corner of the wood where long grain meets end grain.  Then just hone the tool again on your finest grit. This conditions the edge further and should help last a while before sharpening. 

Not sure if was clear from the first post I made but I don't just use the final stone twice if there was a nick or new tool.  I actually go through my entire sharpening process twice.  I sharpen free hand for almost everything so that takes maybe 2 minutes.  Also, once I have the edge I want I try to never remove it. Here is what I mean.  For a bench chisel here is my standard operation.  I hollow grind at 25 degrees then I put a secondary bevel on slightly above that with a 1,000 shapton.  Then I put a tertiary bevel on around 30 degrees with the 16,000 shapton.  Then when I go to resharpen I only use the 1,000 shapton a couple of strokes to shrink the tertiary bevel down to a small size but not gone.  Then I go back to 16,000 stone and hone the tertiary bevel which goes quickly because l reduced the size with the 1,000 grit stone. Now I have a great edge and when the secondary bevel gets too large I go back to the grinder and remove the material but not the cutting edge so I don't have to start all over again.

The modern steels on good chisels and irons are very strong and can hold up to this but some tools with softer steel you may have to change the cutting angle higher.

Hope this helps.
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Offline JJ Wavra

  • Posts: 236
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2017, 11:41 PM »
Yes, essentially no stone other than the 16,000 touches the tertiary bevel.  The exception is if the cutting edge has been degraded to the point where the 16,000 does not hone the edge properly.

Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 59
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2017, 06:50 PM »
I've found that I don't tend to get a large burr when I do my final sharpening on a 16,000 Shapton glass stone. When I do my final step on the back, I don't seem to have much if any burr to remove. YMMV.

Clint

TS 55, TS 75, DF 500, DF 700, Kapex, MFK 700, OF 1400, OF OF 2200, CT 22, ETS 150/3, ETS EQ 150/5, PRO 5, DTS 400, CXS

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 143
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2017, 10:19 AM »
If you hone with progressively higher grits, say 1000/6000/13000, the wire edge will become progressively smaller in line with the higher grits. In other words, you may create a large wire with the 1000, but the 13000 will reduce it considerably.

You have a choice: remove the wire after each stone ... but only do so on the final polishing stone; or, remove the wire at the end, again on the final polishing stone.

All my blades are hollow ground, and then I freehand on the hollow. I do not use the Ruler Trick. Most blades, regardless of the steel type (and I use many) will take only a minute or two to create a fresh edge.

I've posted this link before, but here it is again - my sharpening method. It is where I am presently after 25+ years of sharpening blades:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


Offline curiousdork

  • Posts: 43
  • I code and woodwork.
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 01:07 PM »
I used to remove the butt on the back with each progressive grit but I noticed no benefit in doing so.  My blades don't leave tracks or ridges so I only use the highest grit for removing the burr.  More importantly for me is to establish that camber and the microbevel.  I also don't use the ruler trick.  at the end, I use a strop to put a final polish; 20 strokes on the bevel and the back is good enough to put a stupidly sharp edge.  In all I can hone a blade in less than three minutes. 

Offline FOGNewbie

  • Posts: 134
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2017, 01:43 PM »
The other day I nicked the blade on my jointer plane.  Since I hone using a microbevel, set on the Veritas MKii honing guide, I decided just to reestablish the whole primary bevel as a way of getting rid of the nick.  I don't have a grinder, so I did it with XXCoarse DMT Diamond stone.  It took a while, but I did eventually take off enough material to remove the nick.  At 1200 I started putting in a small secondary bevel again.  By the time I got to the highest grit, I had a huge burr on the back.  I know in freehand sharpening some people lap the back of the chisel a few strokes on every grit after they've done the bevel on that stone.  But because I use the veritas jig, and I employ the ruler trick, the way I  learned was to do the back just on the final grit, and only after I had taken it out of the jig.  But it just felt wrong lapping the back with such a large burr on the 8000 Shapton stone.  And indeed, when I did some test passes with the blade, although it was otherwise razor sharp, it was leaving a small ridge/track in the middle of the blade, likely from a place where the burr had snapped off (it was in a different place on the blade from where the nick was, so I'm sure it wasn't simply a question of me not having removed enough material to work out the nick).

So I guess my question is in a situation like this, where I'm going to be removing a lot of material and creating a large burr, at what point should I start lapping the back of the blade?  I'm loathe to remove and then reseat the blade in the jig multiple times during the same sharpening session, but I guess there might not be any way around it, as it's pretty difficult to lap the back while the blade is still in the jig.

You can micro bevel the back of the plane blade using the ruler trick. That way you shouldn't have to reflatten the entire back

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/the_ruler_trick



The other option is to go back and forth. If the back of the plane blade is already flat, You shouldn't need to spend much time as you work through the grits.

Offline FOGNewbie

  • Posts: 134
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2017, 01:44 PM »
I was taught to remove the burr with each grit I use.  It should only take a few passes so doesn't add a lot of time.  My methods may be wrong technically, but work for me.

Agree.


That's the way I sharpen blades and chisels as well.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 555
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2017, 05:00 PM »
If you remove the burr with each grit, and you don't fully buff out the back with the next grit, you end up with grooves in the back that will get worse each time you use that grit on the back.  Where the grooves intersect the edge, you end up with spots that will crack out and dull the edge over time.  Once I've flattened a back to, say, 8000, I never touch it with anything other than 8000 again unless I have to totally rework it.

The ruler trick works for planes, but I don't think it is recommended for chisels.

I'm not sure why, but I've just never had problems with burrs when re-establishing a primary bevel on a blade that already has a polished back.

Offline FOGNewbie

  • Posts: 134
Re: Sharpening methods question
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2017, 05:40 PM »
You are correct. NEVER use the ruler trick for a chisel.