Author Topic: Shooting versus Miter  (Read 4686 times)

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Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 565
Shooting versus Miter
« on: May 16, 2018, 12:20 PM »
I know there is quite a few peoples here that have a lot of experience with those planes. I'd like to know what is the difference and which one is more suited for a beginner to make frames.





Thanks!
Mario

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Offline tomp

  • Posts: 48
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2018, 01:01 PM »
 Unless you're planning on buying a pair - Left Hand and Right Hand - the second one is probably a better deal as it can be used either way, just make sure that the shooting board will allow you to trim both (LN has plans for one on their web site). Check Rob Cosman's YouTube channel for his video on shooting boards, I believe that he uses standard bench planes. A poster on another board makes a lot of frames, and swear by his miter trimmer for cutting crisp tight miters - he cuts the pieces close on his SCMS and tweaks them with the trimmer. If I was planning to make a lot of frames, I'd think hard about the trimmer - plus the cost is considerably less than one of these $300+ planes, and no shooting board required. If you don't buy one of the cheap imports, most can be purchased with accessory length stops.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 01:16 PM »
Why is a pair of the shooting planes needed? The L and R are for people with different dominant hands. You need only one of them.

Since the prices are similar, I would pick the shooting plane and use it WITH the LV track. If you shoot a lot, the mitre plane is no match in terms of efficiency.

I own the shooting plane and have used the mitre plane half a dozen times for shooting endgrain. The skew blade (pmv11) in the shooting plane seems to give me better results.

But a shooting plane or mitre plane does a lot more than a mitre trimmer, like coopering, or edging. If your prime goal is just to make mitred frames, the shooting or mitre plane would be an overkill.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:18 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 565
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 02:04 PM »
Thanks to both of you for your inputs.

The reason I asked the question today is because I have the Miter plane in my LeeValley wish list for a while and I just notice today that they also have a Shooting plane.

@ChuckM I understand better the purpose of those two planes, and I want to make the most out of the plane.

The Shooting plane seems to be the one that I will go for. Including of course the Veritas shooting track. I will look at LN shooting board plan but if you have any other suggestion let me know. i plan to make that (shooting board) a weekend project in a few weeks from now.


Thanks again.
Mario

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2018, 04:50 PM »
Is your LN SB plan the same as David Charlesworth's SB plan?

Any SB that has a flat base and a square fence would work. I have two, one built for use with the LAJ in pre-Veritas Shooting Plane days, and one built for the Veritas Shooting Plane. I added a mitre jig (rafter square), using a tip from the Fine Woodworking magazine (FW 247 – June 2015).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:02 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2018, 06:05 PM »
I'd like to know what is the difference and which one is more suited for a beginner to make frames.

If you’re talking picture frames, here’s a good thread. The consensus was a miter trimmer.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/please-help-a-newbie-figure-out-what-is-needed-for-picture-frame-making/msg391337/#msg391337

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 794
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 06:09 PM »
The advantages of the shooting plane are it's weight, the skewed blade, and the additional length.  I've tried shooting with a low angle bench plane, a regular bench plane, and block plane, and none of them is as effective as the shooting plane.  I've never tried the miter plane.

I have the LV track, but I'm not totally sold on it.  It is easy to set up, but the low friction plastic runner seems to want to not stick well, and to get damaged by the plane.  The next shooting board I make will be wood, using some very hard, durable wood for the parts that the plane runs on and against - maybe even brass on the edges.  I do like having a shooting board that encloses the plane, and the LV track does that nicely.  If I make my own, that will be a feature.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 06:11 PM »
When it comes to planes I think of @derekcohen who has been involved in the testing and development of several.

Maybe he will also pipe in.

Peter

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 08:31 PM »
The advantages of the shooting plane are it's weight, the skewed blade, and the additional length.  ...

I've had the Veritas Shooting Plane for a couple of years now, and find it to be my favorite plane and one that gets used a lot. I also haven't used the Veritas Miter Plane, but as Harvey notes, the Shooting Plane benefits from its weight, length and skewed blade -- all desirable aspects for this type plane. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see where the Miter Plane has a market with the availability of the Shooting Plane.

As for shooting boards, you certainly do not need to purchase the track -- it is simple to make your own keeper, and periodically waxing the board will make your shooting plane glide along just fine. Also, I recommend that you make a board that extends beyond the fence, unlike what Chuck has pictured above.

 
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 09:01 PM »
The advantages of the shooting plane are it's weight, the skewed blade, and the additional length.  ...
Also, I recommend that you make a board that extends beyond the fence, unlike what Chuck has pictured above.

Beyond the fence in length or width?

The one shown in the bottom pictures has its board extend well beyond the fence, as the shooting can be done on either side.

If in length, what are the advantages? I may be building a new one in the future for use with the low angle block. The Vogt and Evenfall SBs do not have their boards go beyond the fences in length.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 09:10 PM by ChuckM »

Offline derekcohen

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    • In The Woodshop
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 09:26 PM »
Hi Mario

I use a shooting plane and board predominantly for squaring the ends of boards, such as fine tuning drawer faces or the ends of tenons prior to marking them. For this, a standard shooting board is best. However, if you plan to shoot mitres for picture frames, then you need a different shooting board and a shooting plane which can be reversed. For the latter, a plane such as the Veritas LA Jack is preferred.

The shooting board for mitres needs to ensure that the two mitred sides add up to 90 degrees. You shoot one end, then shoot the other from the complementary side (with the LA Jack) ...



It is not advisable to shoot picture mitres from one side (hand) only since tiny discrepancies in error are additive, and by the fourth side you end up with a gap.

If you are shooting square, then the Veritas shooting plane is superb. I have a review here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

On a ramped shooting board ...



... and on a Stanley #52 shooting board ...



An earlier article I wrote you may find interesting:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek


Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 10:09 PM »
The advantages of the shooting plane are it's weight, the skewed blade, and the additional length.  ...
Also, I recommend that you make a board that extends beyond the fence, unlike what Chuck has pictured above.

Beyond the fence in length or width?

The one shown in the bottom pictures has its board extend well beyond the fence, as the shooting can be done on either side.

If in length, what are the advantages? I may be building a new one in the future for use with the low angle block. The Vogt and Evenfall SBs do not have their boards go beyond the fences in length.

I was referring to the length such that your plane is better supported at the far end of each stroke. This may not be necessary, but I feel it makes for a better shooting board.

I am also in need of making a new shooting board. My current shooting board was made before I got my Shooting Plane, and was made sized to work with my Lie-Nielsen LA Jack. It has a raised bed in the center with a runway for the plane on either side. When I got my [right handed] Shooting Plane, I added a keeper to the right-hand runway to retain the plane. Worked fine until the last time I went to use it and noticed I wasn't getting cuts that were 90 to the face (no longer plumb) and was off more than the place could adjust for. Upon examination, I found that the base had warped with the right-hand side of the runway higher than the blade side. Time to make a new one. Searching for ideas, I came upon where he discusses how shooting boards can warp in the other direction as what I was experiencing. Interesting. And something you may wish to consider when making yours.  [smile]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 10:34 PM »


I was referring to the length such that your plane is better supported at the far end of each stroke. This may not be necessary, but I feel it makes for a better shooting board.

Thanks for your clarification and that is going beyond the fence in length. We probably shoot differently as my shooting stops right after passing the fence with the large part of the plane's body still on the track, avoiding any chance that the front will drop. I call mine controlled shooting, which is less tiring than shooting all the way with my arm fully extended. When I shoot with the LAJ on the old SB, if I have a lot to shoot, I shoot alternately with either hand, again trying not to overuse my dominant hand and shoulder.

Regarding the LV track, I have used my SB continually for about a year and a half now (in about 7 projects out of a dozen or more) and the UHMW strips are holding up very well with no signs of tear. If they are worn out, I think I can get a replacement with ease from LV.

But the biggest advantages of the LV track are these:

1) It has a built-in dust chute (see my second photo above)
2) The fit is adjustable with the set screws and seasonal changes do not affect the fit.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:51 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 565
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 07:14 AM »
Again thank you all for your inputs, really appreciated.

Oh boy, I was not expecting that much of information  [scared] now i have plenty to digest  [big grin]

Okay! so I removed the Miter plane from my wish list and replace it with the Shooting plane and the LV track. I also had the LA jack in my list, that was my next hand tool purchase. Here come my next question.

I want to make my own Roubo Bench and will need a plane to flatten the top. What plane would fit the best? i was thinking of the LA Jack, should I go with the #5 or #5 1/2?

Actually all I have in my posession are small planes, like block plane, router plane and edge plane.

P.S. I want to stay in the Veritas brand. I know there is other brands like LN that are very nice and good planes, but I haven't found any local vendor that supply them, and I like to see and touch what I am buying  [wink]
Mario

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 565
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 07:59 AM »
Guys, I'm trying to analyze all that information. If I am wrong with any assumption or statement please do not hesitate to correct me as I am a total newbie at this.

@ChuckM Thank you for the detailed pictures. I will make one like yours, incorporating the LV track. I'm sold with the track and realize I will need/make more then one shooting board.

@Cheese , I read through that thread. Again a lot of good info thank you.

@HarveyWildes , I got your point about the Shooting plane.. indeed it is HEAVY  [smile]

@Corwin , got your point about the Miter plane. I don't see it to fit in my plans anymore.. thank you. I watch Rob Cosman video you linked and I understand his point about extending the board. Took note of it  [smile]

@derekcohen , thank you for the pictures and the explanations. I totally understand what you mean by discrepancies and that first board is absolutely fantastic. Ramping board? travel with an angle??

Materail to use;
Stock Support: MDF 3/4-1"
Plane Gliding: BB 15mm
Fence: Walnut (dimension?)
Cleat: ?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 08:21 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2018, 01:03 PM »
Snipe

I want to make my own Roubo Bench and will need a plane to flatten the top. What plane would fit the best? i was thinking of the LA Jack, should I go with the #5 or #5 1/2?


My biased vote is the LAJ (same length as the Custom 5-1/2) because it was the first hand plane I owned and it has never failed me even years after I have acquired many other bench and joinery planes. Here is why:

I use the LAJ for long/wide boards as well as long edge work (over 12"), and shooting. When difficult grains are encountered, I switch the blade (25* on a 12* bed) to a high angle blade (usually 38*; 50* on only two occasions). It is a two-types-of plane (high angle and low angle) in one for me.

Derek has shown how to camber a blade for the LA plane using a grinder. Some round the corners with a file. Over the years, I rely on free hand sharpening and have not had any plane track issues.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:37 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 04:30 PM »
...
Okay! so I removed the Miter plane from my wish list and replace it with the Shooting plane and the LV track. I also had the LA jack in my list, that was my next hand tool purchase. Here come my next question.

I want to make my own Roubo Bench and will need a plane to flatten the top. What plane would fit the best? i was thinking of the LA Jack, should I go with the #5 or #5 1/2?

Actually all I have in my posession are small planes, like block plane, router plane and edge plane.

P.S. I want to stay in the Veritas brand. ...

With this additional consideration, I would suggest taking the Shooting Plane and LV Track off your list for now and get the LA Jack. I would also get an additional blade such that you can put a camber on one blade and have the other without a camber -- this way you can use this one plane for both needs you currently have.

For flattening your bench, you also may want to get the LV winding sticks and a LV straight edge.

Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 565
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 04:55 PM »
Can you elaborate on the camber? First time I heard about plane camber  [eek]
Mario

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2018, 05:55 PM »
Can you elaborate on the camber? First time I heard about plane camber  [eek]

You put a slight curvature on the cutting edge of the blade to prevent the corners from digging into the wood.

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2018, 06:07 PM »
Blade camber is simply a curvature of the blade's front edge. So, rather than a straight edge on your blade, you would grind an 8 to 10 inch radius along the front edge and then sharpen the curved edge. This means that the center of the blade will extend further than the edges. More curve (smaller radius) along with a wider mouth opening for rougher work where you want to take off a good deal of material, and less of a curve (larger radius) for medium work (like a jointer plane) and very little curve (or no curve and just rounded off corners) with a tighter mouth opening for final smoothing. Ideally, you would want a Jack, Jointer and Smoother planes setup accordingly. But, using different blades and adjusting the mouth as needed, the LA Jack can be used, and will work for you if you only want to have the one plane. Some people that start out with a LA Jack like this later find that they prefer to have something like the no. 5, 7 and 4, and then don't use the LA Jack so much. Even if you fall into this camp, your LA Jack will come in handy as a shooting plane as it can be use both left and right -- and much cheaper than getting a Shooting plane, and much, much cheaper than purchasing both left and right hand Shooting planes.  [wink]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2018, 08:03 PM »
I don't use a cambered blade, Mario.

If you do plan to put one on a LA blade, the camber needs to be much bigger (pronounced) than the one used on a high angle blade. (Are you a Tormek user? The Tormek SE77 jig is what you'll need to camber your blades.)

In addition to its use for scrubbing in a regular plane, explore the power of a cambered blade here: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/learning_curves
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 08:10 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 565
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2018, 10:09 PM »
Thanks for the explanations... I believe I'm not there yet   [big grin]
Mario

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 229
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Shooting versus Miter
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2018, 02:06 AM »
Hi Mario

I use a camber on all my bench plane blades, except when shooting on a shooting board.

The jack has the most pronounced camber to take deeper shavings and remove waste fastest. The camber can vary from 8" to 12".

The try plane is moderately cambered, as it is aimed at removing many of the furrows created by the jack.

The jointer has a little camber, as this is the enable it to steer along the edge of a board and remove the high spots.

The smoother has the least camber, but enough to remove track lines.

Adding camber to bevel down blades is simple since the primary bevel is usually low (25-30 degrees). However, adding camber to bevel up blades requires a different method since the tertiary angle may be a high 50 degrees. That would be too much steel to remove to camber. The method with BU blades is to only ever use a 25 degree primary angle, and then add the tertiary angle and camber via a secondary microbevel (using a honing guide). Do not attempt to camber a 50 degree bevel for a smoother on a grinder (Tormek or otherwise) as this is too crude a tool for the fine camber required on a smoother.

I developed the technique for BU blades:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

Regards from Perth

Derek