Author Topic: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11  (Read 4855 times)

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Offline curiousdork

  • Posts: 40
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Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« on: March 10, 2017, 05:44 PM »
I currently have two Veritas planes (BU Jointer, LA Block) and three Stanley planes (LA Jack, #4 Smooth, and a Type 9 5 1/2).  I use a combination of A2's and PM-V11's.  One thing I've noticed is that the A2 tool steel takes forever on my King 1000/6000 stone.  Honestly, I get annoyed when sharpening/honing takes a long time.  After some careful research and reading on the intarwebs, apparently A2 holds an edge longer but takes forever to work.  PM-V11 holds an edge well and cuts well on my King stones.  The only steel I have no experience using is the O1.  How well does the O1 work and how keen of an edge can I get?  Do I need to ditch my King stones and go, say, Shapton or Sigma?  I love having sharp blades I just hate spending an hour working the blades.  Also is O1 viable enough that it can handle both rough work,  smoothing, and flattening?  Would an o1 blade be a suitable option when buying my next set of Veritas planes?  What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 06:39 PM by curiousdork »

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Offline Poindexter

  • Posts: 137
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 06:38 AM »
I don't have the answer.  I'm posting to stay in the loop with you.  Curious too because I'm close to pulling the trigger on a should plane.

Offline McNally Family

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 07:01 AM »
I am hoping @Lemwise will join the conversation, as this is right up his alley...
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Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 728
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 07:18 AM »
Info from Lee Valley concerning blades. Some interesting and helpful info in their Articles section.

A2 vs O1
http://www.leevalley.com/en/home/Articles.aspx?p=32&cat=32%2c49551

Sharpening A2 Blades
http://www.leevalley.com/en/home/Articles.aspx?p=32&cat=32%2c49551

John

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 07:44 AM »
I am hoping @Lemwise will join the conversation, as this is right up his alley...
Here I am ;D And here are my thoughts. I love O1 (and it's counterpart W1). It's easy to sharpen, takes a very keen, hair popping sharp edge and dulls in a very nice way. It's almost like the edge rolls over but you can keep working with it fairly long. A2 is not a favourite of mine. It takes longer to sharpen, you can't get it as sharp as O1 but it does stay sharp longer. The only thing you have to remember is to use a higher bevel angle (at least 30 degrees) because the edge tends to fracture at lower angles. PM-V11 is my favourite of the three. It takes longer to sharpen than O1 (somewhere in-between O1 and A2), it takes the same keen edge as O1 but it's a lot more durable than O1 and A2. You really can't go wrong with it. The only downside it that you pay more for it. However, when I'm at work this is compensated by the fact I don't have to sharpen it as often.

Offline curiousdork

  • Posts: 40
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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 08:58 AM »
So an O1 blade and a 25* bevel aren't compatible?  does that mean that I'll be spending more time sharpening a chipped edge because an O1 doesn't like low bevel angles?

I'll definitely consider PM-V11's so on theropod of sharpening/honing, do ceramic stones make the job go faster even on PM-V11 blades?  I'm looking for the best option possible whereby I can get the best of. Other worlds: a durable, keen edge with stones that can cut tool steel as fast as possible.

Offline derekcohen

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 09:22 AM »
I mostly use PM-V11, O1, A2, and White Steel (Japanese laminated blades), among other highly abrasion resistant steels (M2, M4, CPM-3V, and D2). All of these hone equally easily when your method of sharpening is optimised for the steel. All get equally sharp as well - yes, even A2.

There is no magic here, just common sense - if you want to hone abrasion resistant steel, then reduce the amount of steel to hone. You may also need to use appropriate media, but try your Kings - they should work.

I hollow grind all my blades so the edge is a micro bevel. The alternative, if you prefer a full bevel, is to add a micro secondary bevel. Just keep the cutting edge as small as possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline Lemwise

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 09:23 AM »
It's A2 and a 25 degree angle that don't go together well. O1 handles a 25 degree angle just fine. You can even go as low as 18 degrees. It obviously dulls faster at such a low angle but it doesn't chip.

As for sharpening, if you want a really fast set up I'd go with the Sigma Select II 1200 and 6000 grit stones. The Select II range is specifically designed for sharpening hard wearing steels such as HSS and D2. The stones are 100% compacted, sintered abrasive (no bonding agent) and use Silicon Carbide as the sharpening media and therefore it will sharpen anything you throw at it (I've sharpened HSS router bits with them). The 1200 grit stone is very aggressive and quickly removes a lot of material. If you permanently store it in water it becomes even faster. The 6000 is one of the fastest stone in the 6000 grit range and you can permanently store it in water as well if you wish to do so. It produces a very sharp, durable edge. But don't expect a mirror polish. Because the sharpening media is so hard it doesn't really break down and you'll end up with a matt finish but it's a true 6000 grit finish nonetheless.

Another option is a King Deluxe 1200 stone followed by the Sigma Select II 6000. I use the King myself and although it's slower than the Sigma 1200 I like the way it sharpens a lot more. It's one of the best "feeling" stones on the market and it has great feedback.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 475
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 01:50 PM »
It's A2 and a 25 degree angle that don't go together well. O1 handles a 25 degree angle just fine. You can even go as low as 18 degrees. It obviously dulls faster at such a low angle but it doesn't chip.
...

I like PMV-11 at a 30 degree angle - as easy as A2 to sharpen (comparing LN and LV plane blades here), and stays sharp for a long time.

Ron Hock wrote a book on sharpening copyrighted 2009 (before PMV-11 really hit it big) that does a decent job of covering the different kinds of steel.  He covers cryogenic tempering (LN), but not PMV-11, though he does mention that powdered steels are the coming thing.  The book is still just good background information.  The personal experience of people who are familiar with hand tools and what to expect of them is still invaluable when it comes to the steels that are at the "cutting edge" :) of woodworking technology.

Offline derekcohen

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 09:56 PM »
Quote
It's A2 and a 25 degree angle that don't go together well. O1 handles a 25 degree angle just fine. You can even go as low as 18 degrees. It obviously dulls faster at such a low angle but it doesn't chip.

Nico, I have used A2 in block planes for about 15 years (hand tools for about 25 years now). I used A2 in a Veritas LA Jack on a shooting board for about 10 years. All with a 25 degree bevel. Never had a problem. No chipping.

My preference is PM -V11, because the edge is finer and lasts longer, but I have no beef with A2 otherwise. It is a better steel to use on my local abrasive hardwoods.

I also do not find I need a bevel lower than 25 degrees. For BD bench planes, ALL steels benefit from a 30+ degree bevel, even PM-V11. For block planes, I have low angle and standard angle versions - they all pare end grain comfortably with a sharp blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline Lemwise

  • Posts: 205
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 06:06 AM »
I've experienced chipping and crumbling at 25 degrees with A2. Maybe I was just unlucky and I received 2 bad blades, who knows?

And I know a 18 degree bevel is unnecessary. I just said you can sharpen O1 to a very low angle without it chipping to illustrate the difference between O1 and A2.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2017, 06:16 PM »
This some good info. I dont have any hand tools yet and was planning to only go with PM-V11 stuff. Good to hear from others thats a good way to go.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline curiousdork

  • Posts: 40
  • I code and woodwork.
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2017, 12:14 AM »
I've experienced chipping and crumbling at 25 degrees with A2. Maybe I was just unlucky and I received 2 bad blades, who knows?

And I know a 18 degree bevel is unnecessary. I just said you can sharpen O1 to a very low angle without it chipping to illustrate the difference between O1 and A2.

OK, I'll go ahead and say that there is a noticeably huge difference between A2 and PMV-11.  On my ceramic stones PMV-11 cuts super fast which is awesome.  A2 doesn't nearly cut as fast and I understand what you mean by chipping: on a 25* bevel, it just doesn't hold a keen edge as well as my PMV-11.

Offline curiousdork

  • Posts: 40
  • I code and woodwork.
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2017, 12:30 AM »
This some good info. I dont have any hand tools yet and was planning to only go with PM-V11 stuff. Good to hear from others thats a good way to go.

I'd go PMV-11 and get the Low Angle Jack from Veritas.  If you can, add the 38* and the 50* blades and you can pretty much tackle any type of grain (I have the 25, 38, and 50 degree blades and the 50 degree blade cuts surprisingly well and produces little to no tear out).  Post your questions, it'll be good to hear your experience.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 130
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2017, 09:08 AM »
This some good info. I dont have any hand tools yet and was planning to only go with PM-V11 stuff. Good to hear from others thats a good way to go.

I'd go PMV-11 and get the Low Angle Jack from Veritas.  If you can, add the 38* and the 50* blades and you can pretty much tackle any type of grain (I have the 25, 38, and 50 degree blades and the 50 degree blade cuts surprisingly well and produces little to no tear out).  Post your questions, it'll be good to hear your experience.

If you plan to use your (Veritas) BU planes with a cambered blade for smoothing, do not purchase 38- or 50 degree blades - you will struggle to camber them. Rather just get the 25 degree blades and add a secondary bevel with the desired camber. This requires significantly less steel to remove.

I wrote this article 10 years ago: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 475
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2017, 09:52 AM »
@derekcohen, I never thought of cambering a BU plane before.  Cool article.

Offline curiousdork

  • Posts: 40
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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2017, 09:24 PM »
Agreed, I do have a slight camber on my 25* blade but not my 38 and 50 degree blades.  The 50 degree blade produces very little to no tear out, highly recommend with the Low angle Jack.

Offline derekcohen

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    • In The Woodshop
Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2017, 05:31 AM »
I wonder what those here use their LA Jack for?

When I first got mine, over 10 years ago, it was used for shooting endgrain on a shooting board, and as a short jointer. It was never used as a smoother.

A smoother for me is a short plane, about 8-9" long. This is important as I finish all my furniture with a handplane and not a sander.

For those that do not get the difference between the two planes: a 15" long jack will remove more wood to achieve a smooth finish. A shorter smoother will better follow the highs and lows of a board, and will not affect the dimensions. A shorter plane is better able to focus on isolated sections of a board. It is for this reason that traditional coffin smoothers were between 7 - 7 1/2" in length.

So why use a high cutting angle on a jack plane? The only time it is needed is when jointing edges of interlocked grain. That can be a straight blade. Similarly, a low angle (25 degrees) for a shooting board should be a straight blade. On the other hand, all smoothers need to be cambered to prevent track marks on surfaces. Further, they also need to have high cutting angles if used on interlocked grain since this is vulnerable to tearout. These are the bevels that need to be cambered. You are never going to camber a 50 degree bevel! Use the method I outlined above. It works.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline curiousdork

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2017, 02:59 PM »
I use mine as a smoother, a short jointer, and a general "flattening" plane (usually after glue up).  As a smoother it's not terrible though a dedicated smoother would be a nice option.  I actually hate shooting end grain with my LA Jack hence why I have a shooting plane.  Surprisingly, I haven't ran into an issue with my LA Jack that I've found problematic.

Online Jim Kirkpatrick

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Re: Thoughts on O1, A2, and PM-V11
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2017, 04:34 PM »
Thanks Derek, that makes perfect sense.   Fwiw, i use my jack for shooting small trim.   I mostly use it for preliminary flattening  then follow up with my high angle smoother.   I don't camber my smoother,  however.   I like to see the track marks signifying that the surface was worked by hand.  I follow-up with 320g sandpaper but the track marks remain.   It's  just my personal preference.
You are the goto guru for hand plane advice on the Fog.  You the man.

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