Author Topic: Alternative to wood flooring  (Read 13848 times)

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Offline suds

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Alternative to wood flooring
« on: October 10, 2012, 08:00 PM »
30 years ago my wife and I had our home built.  The main floor was carpeted over particle board which was used a lot in our area back then.  We decided we want to have a wood floor but the installer came out today and told us he was hesitant to put it over particle board and if it was his home he wouldn't. 
Any suggestions as to another material that may be a better choice than carpeting.  The ceilings and all the trim were done by a local craftsman in wood and we'd like something that would compliment that look.
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Offline DKurzweil

  • Posts: 165
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 08:17 PM »
Instead of hardwood you can try a floating style engineered wood floor system.

Daniel
Addiction includes TS75, OF1010, Domino 500, RO150, T-18 set, CSX, LR-32 set, CT48 and CTMidi

Offline erock

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 08:56 PM »
My house was built in the 70's.   My sub floor is pressed particle board.  And I installed solid bamboo T&G flooring in 2 of my bedrooms.

I'm not sure why he wouldn't install the flooring over the particle board.  I'm not a pro flooring guy.  But my floor is solid. 

Maybe get another company to come in and give you an estimate?



Eric

Offline suds

  • Posts: 364
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 09:02 PM »
He felt the particle hardwood over the particle board would lead to squeaks sooner or later and he did say there were other installers who would do it but it would be a continual problem over the years.  We do have wood in our kitchen and it has squeaked for over 20 years.
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Offline erock

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 09:06 PM »
was 20lb felt paper (or some sort of paper)   installed between the sub floor and hardwood flooring?

Offline mastercabman

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 09:15 PM »
A floor man told me once that nailing to particle board doesn't hold up over time.
You could lay some 1/2" plywood over it.Or use a engineered floor.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Holzhacker

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 09:32 PM »
A couple issues here. I'm not sure why the guy doesn't want to go over the particle board. If he thinks there is a structural issue, then call someone else. Mastercabman's comment about holding power is however legit. Are we really talking particle board or actually OSB? If particle board and if that old, I would try to go over it with a layer of plywood just for general longevity and safety. Keep your baseboards and thresholds in mind when thinking about options.
- you could do a floating floor
- you could do a glue down floor
- you could nail down a plywood base and then nail down standard hardwood
There are a lot of flooring options these days. I'm not a big fan of floating laminate floors; probably because I install a lot of it. However there are some good product lines that are worth looking into; and no they aren't sold at the big box stores. Some of the prefinished 3/4" glue down veneers are very nice. All of the floors need either a specified underlayment, rosin paper or felt paper between them and the substrate.
$1.50 - $3.00 a square foot range - big box store laminate crap, will look ok for a while, will blow up if it gets hit with water
$3.00 - $7.00 a square foot range - various types of real wood flooring that needs to be sanded and finished; by the time you add plywood figure $8-$10 a square foot
$6 - $9.00 - nice 5/8" to 3/4" fully finished nail or glue down veneer top layer with various types of composite base material
Good flooring costs good money. It isn't cheap. If whether your style or wallet are saying standard laminate then just go to big orange and buy whatever you think looks good. It won't matter because you'll have to change it in a few years anyway.
I always recommend customers spend as much as they can afford on a floor. Floors take a lot of abuse and need to hold up reasonably well. I would suggest you go to a flooring store and look at some options. The choices and varieties are really staggering these days. It can be overwhelming but it is important to get it right.
The prices mentioned are typical material costs for my area. Essentially double it to get total cost and you'll be close. Obviously I don't know what prices are in your area.
Good luck
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline suds

  • Posts: 364
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 09:51 PM »
Thanks for the information fellas.  I'm not sure what was over the particle board (at my age 30 years ago who knows).  Without removing the particle board there will be significant clearance issues and the only way he would even think about doing it was to remove the particle board and lay a plywood base.  While he said he could do it he warned us the mess was going to be extreme.  I'm not sure that it's worth the mess, expecially if there are other interesting alternatives.  Since this will be the last floor we install and it has very light use (only two of us) we aren't too concerned about some of the things a family would be experiencing.   
MFT's, Kapex, TS 55, Vac, 150 Rotrex, 300 Trion, Domino

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 10:08 PM »
Do not install a nailed floor over particle board.  Do not install a ceramic floor over particle board.

You could remove the particle board and install 3/4 plywood and do anything.  You would add 1/2 ply on top as long as your fasteners go all the way thru to the joists.  Floating floor or glue down engineered would have minimal height implications.

Whatever you decide to do, check the manufacturer's installation instructions first before buying.

Peter


Offline Scott Burt

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2012, 10:44 PM »
He felt the particle hardwood over the particle board would lead to squeaks sooner or later and he did say there were other installers who would do it but it would be a continual problem over the years.  We do have wood in our kitchen and it has squeaked for over 20 years.

My house is 120 years old. If floors didnt squeek it wouldnt feel like home to me. Its like the Landie owners in the uk say: "if it's not leaking something, it's not a Rover."

At night, the squeeks are like a low budget security. You will hear the bad guys as soon as they step inside.  [big grin] I just helped a buddy recently install a bamboo floor over particle board. It does squeek.

Offline Jeff R Johnson

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Re: Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 10:49 PM »
Suds, I'm also a floor guy and I agree with all the other comments. Don't do a nail down, do a floating floor instead. I thought that I could cheat in my own house, which has an odd t&g particle board from the 80s, so I put in a nail down. Now i have lots of squeaks. I can live with it, but only cause i have to. Kahrs makes a beautiful floating floor.
I'm impressed with the integrity of your installer. Sounds like he knows what he's doing.

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Offline wooden

  • Posts: 319
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2012, 11:03 PM »

I'd remove the particle board and install a plywood subfloor.  Nail the hardwood to that.

If you screw the subfloor to the joists, you will reduce the squeaks.  You may still get squeaks from the nails used to install the hardwood floor.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3436
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 08:17 AM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 09:33 AM »
Some of the Cork flooring is really nice and can be installed just about over anything.

Offline Deansocial

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 01:43 PM »
Either glue it down or float an engeneered like kahrs. Or lay a vinyl floor they are harder wearing and look pretty real

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2348
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 05:17 PM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 



Before you go through all of that, make sure that you understand the structure of your floor.  Here in California, a lot of homes were built with a 4 x 6 on 4' centers and then covered with 1 1/8" t&g plywood.  No amount of nailing will eliminate the deflection in the center of that span with resulting squeaks.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3436
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 07:43 PM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 



Before you go through all of that, make sure that you understand the structure of your floor.  Here in California, a lot of homes were built with a 4 x 6 on 4' centers and then covered with 1 1/8" t&g plywood.  No amount of nailing will eliminate the deflection in the center of that span with resulting squeaks.

Understood.  This place has 2x8 joists at 16" on center.  The issue is that the house is 33 years old, and nails are loosening up.  The builder chose to not use screws or ring-shank nails, and the squeaking is the consequence.

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline avrs22

  • Posts: 91
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 09:44 PM »
I fixed a floor that was made of particle board (not osb)
The basement didn't have a ceiling and I noticed that where it was squeaking was where the sheets of particle board sheets were butted together between the floor joices.  the two sheets were rubbing together.
I screwed a 2x6 piece between the joices and glued it with pl (construction adhesive) at about 10 different places ant it fixed there squeaking floor problem.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6583
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 11:32 AM »
I wouldnt nail  the floor.

Glue it down OR like Dean said a clip system floating floor.

Not sure what the condition of the particleboard is but i would always be tempted to replace it with plywood best for the glue to adhere to.
Not sure why it would cause ''ALOT'' of mess  using like a TS55 to cut the board up with dust extraction and then you can easily rip the boards up.

I would also go for engineered flooring only.


JMB
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Offline Wooden Lungs

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 05:20 PM »
Cork flooring with a cork underlay is fantastic!

You can get some really fantastic cork boards (not those crappy square ones!)

Its warm to walk on and has brilliant acoustic value. Easy to lay too.
Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your  off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts.

Offline suds

  • Posts: 364
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 08:51 AM »
Any source for the cork floors? 
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 09:20 AM »
Any source for the cork floors? 

A quick internet search shows that cork plank flooring is even available at the big box stores.  You might want to check your Olympia Lowes store.

Peter

Offline Jeff R Johnson

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Re: Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 10:56 AM »
You are in the NW? I just purchased and installed cork flooring from Kentwood brand. They have a distributor in Seattle but you can see samples at many local stores.

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Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 02:47 PM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 



Before you go through all of that, make sure that you understand the structure of your floor.  Here in California, a lot of homes were built with a 4 x 6 on 4' centers and then covered with 1 1/8" t&g plywood.  No amount of nailing will eliminate the deflection in the center of that span with resulting squeaks.

I live in San Diego CA with a home built as described...a Giant box of screws and about 3 hours of screwing and I've managed to remove every single squeak in my home, its no longer `haunted`

Christopher

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2348
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 08:00 PM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 



Before you go through all of that, make sure that you understand the structure of your floor.  Here in California, a lot of homes were built with a 4 x 6 on 4' centers and then covered with 1 1/8" t&g plywood.  No amount of nailing will eliminate the deflection in the center of that span with resulting squeaks.

I live in San Diego CA with a home built as described...a Giant box of screws and about 3 hours of screwing and I've managed to remove every single squeak in my home, its no longer `haunted`

Christopher

Christopher,

I glad that the screws fixed your squeaking floor but, I still maintain that a 4' span will create some flooring issues over time.  I have been in my house for over 40 years and even though I used ring shank nails with a 6" spacing to fasten the ply to the floor beams,  I have deflections in mid span that caused cracks in my kitchen Travertine stone floor tiles.  I also added 2 x 6 supports at mid span where I installed my t&g oak flooring and with the 30# building felt I don't have squeaking floors.

Jack

Offline Deansocial

  • Posts: 2114
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 02:26 AM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 



Before you go through all of that, make sure that you understand the structure of your floor.  Here in California, a lot of homes were built with a 4 x 6 on 4' centers and then covered with 1 1/8" t&g plywood.  No amount of nailing will eliminate the deflection in the center of that span with resulting squeaks.

I live in San Diego CA with a home built as described...a Giant box of screws and about 3 hours of screwing and I've managed to remove every single squeak in my home, its no longer `haunted`

Christopher

Christopher,

I glad that the screws fixed your squeaking floor but, I still maintain that a 4' span will create some flooring issues over time.  I have been in my house for over 40 years and even though I used ring shank nails with a 6" spacing to fasten the ply to the floor beams,  I have deflections in mid span that caused cracks in my kitchen Travertine stone floor tiles.  I also added 2 x 6 supports at mid span where I installed my t&g oak flooring and with the 30# building felt I don't have squeaking floors.

Jack

Your daft for even trying travatine on a floor like that. Of cause it is going to crack

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3582
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 05:21 AM »
Even the plywood subfloor under the carpeted areas of my house squeaks.  Eventually, I'll replace the carpet with 3/4" t&g red oak, but first, I'm going to have to screw down the subflooring or use ring-shank nails as well as pull any loose original nails I can get to, then cover the subfloor with rosin paper before laying the red oak.  The squeaking drives me up a wall.  I agree with others that particle board is a source of heartache.  I'm ever so grateful that it was not used in my house. 



Before you go through all of that, make sure that you understand the structure of your floor.  Here in California, a lot of homes were built with a 4 x 6 on 4' centers and then covered with 1 1/8" t&g plywood.  No amount of nailing will eliminate the deflection in the center of that span with resulting squeaks.

I live in San Diego CA with a home built as described...a Giant box of screws and about 3 hours of screwing and I've managed to remove every single squeak in my home, its no longer `haunted`

Christopher

Christopher,

I glad that the screws fixed your squeaking floor but, I still maintain that a 4' span will create some flooring issues over time.  I have been in my house for over 40 years and even though I used ring shank nails with a 6" spacing to fasten the ply to the floor beams,  I have deflections in mid span that caused cracks in my kitchen Travertine stone floor tiles.  I also added 2 x 6 supports at mid span where I installed my t&g oak flooring and with the 30# building felt I don't have squeaking floors.

Jack

Your daft for even trying travatine on a floor like that. Of cause it is going to crack

Ditto
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Scott1733

  • Posts: 9
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 10:22 AM »
If you are going to lay a wood floor (3/4" solid) then the particle board will need to be removed. It should have been installed over the sub floor to stiffen it when they were going to install something other than solid 3/4" wood. If you don't remove it you will have problems with height and squeaking (particle board will not hold a nail).

Offline Scott1733

  • Posts: 9
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2012, 10:28 AM »
Hey, hows your project going? What did you decide, is it done??

Offline suds

  • Posts: 364
Re: Alternative to wood flooring
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 09:56 PM »
Well, the weather is great now so we talked to the flooring guy late this spring and decided that while we liked the idea of extra "squeak security" it just was going to be too much of a mess to take on.  I'm sure it has save me a lot of dough!!!
MFT's, Kapex, TS 55, Vac, 150 Rotrex, 300 Trion, Domino