Author Topic: anchoring an island  (Read 2818 times)

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Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 187
anchoring an island
« on: April 19, 2017, 08:39 PM »
In my continuing series of questions about how to best approach a task in remodeling:

I intend to build an island for my kitchen.   It will be about 7' long and will contain a sink, dishwasher, and a cabinet with some drawers.  The top is going to be walnut butcher block, and extend ~16" over the back of the cabinets for seating/dining space.

I'm wondering what approach is going to be best to tie all of this together.   The cabinets are frameless, and the dishwasher will be sitting between the sink cabinet and the ~20" drawer cabinet.

The floor is oak hardwood over diagonal planking.   

My understanding is that there should be cleats screwed to the floor, and that the cabinets should be screwed into the cleats.  That all makes sense to me, but how should I go about connecting the cabinets to one another?  Or, do I just rely on the top to do that for me?   

I think that I am getting hung up on the dishwasher between the two cabinets.  As opposed to having the cabinets next to each other and fastened.

Also, should I take any extra steps to reinforce the sink cabinet? 

Thanks as always,
Adam



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Offline antss

  • Posts: 919
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 08:47 PM »
The cabinets get screwed together just like any other casework.

Many Euro installers use male/female bolt through a 5mm hole in both carcasses.  4 per cabinet, though I know many guys that only use three.  Two in the front and one in the back.  Some guys uses the upper and lower most shelf holes to drill through for the bolts.   Others hide them behind the hinges.

Don't rely on the counter top guys to do anything but mess up your work.    [tongue]

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 339
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 09:04 PM »
Difficult to picture your configuration without a sketch or picture, but I think
you are saying you will have two cabinets which will flank the dishwasher and
hence no way (that you see) to connect them to stabilize the whole assembly.

You state you have a plan which you intend to follow for anchoring the cabinets
to the floor, but believe there should be something more.

Did I get that all correct?

What will enclose the back of the dishwasher space and why can't that be used
to connect the two cabinets together. At the front of the dishwasher space why
can't you connect the two cabinets with a flat, 4 inch wide stretcher of 3/4 ply
or other material which could be joined with pocket screws or Dominos.  The
dishwasher should slip underneath it no problem. Between this stretcher and
the back panel that should be more than enough to make the whole assembly
rigid I would think.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 187
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 09:21 PM »
Difficult to picture your configuration without a sketch or picture, but I think
you are saying you will have two cabinets which will flank the dishwasher and
hence no way (that you see) to connect them to stabilize the whole assembly.

You state you have a plan which you intend to follow for anchoring the cabinets
to the floor, but believe there should be something more.

Did I get that all correct?

Yes.  Here's a quick sketch of what Im thinking:

262095-0

Quote
What will enclose the back of the dishwasher space and why can't that be used
to connect the two cabinets together. At the front of the dishwasher space why
can't you connect the two cabinets with a flat, 4 inch wide stretcher of 3/4 ply
or other material which could be joined with pocket screws or Dominos.  The
dishwasher should slip underneath it no problem. Between this stretcher and
the back panel that should be more than enough to make the whole assembly
rigid I would think.

Good call on the back panel.  I don't think it even occurred to me that I would probably need to cover that up.

The other side will be finished with some panels, but the back panel ought to be a useful way to add rigidity.

I've never installed a dishwasher before (I haven't owned one before, either).   So I wasn't sure how much clearance I could reasonably expect to have to put other bracing in.

Thanks,
Adam

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 187
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 09:24 PM »
The cabinets get screwed together just like any other casework.

Many Euro installers use male/female bolt through a 5mm hole in both carcasses.  4 per cabinet, though I know many guys that only use three.  Two in the front and one in the back.  Some guys uses the upper and lower most shelf holes to drill through for the bolts.   Others hide them behind the hinges.

Don't rely on the counter top guys to do anything but mess up your work.    [tongue]

With the separation of the two cabinets, I don't think I'll be able to bolt those together.   But that's a good approach for the other wall, where i have cabinet boxes lined up 4 in a row and stacked 3 high.

I'm the counter guy, too.  Hopefully I don't mess it up too bad!   [unsure]

Thanks,
Adam




Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 339
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 09:25 PM »
Check the height of the dishwasher but I think you should have some space, maybe no more than 3/4", to get something in there. You don't want to trap the DW in place as it may need service or replacement in the future.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline antss

  • Posts: 919
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 10:10 PM »
OK, I assumed it was a bigger island.

You're not going to get the DW to align correctly with the adjacent door and drawer panels if you put in a stretcher like Bob suggests - unless.......................

You also have a wood door panel to attach to the DW.   If that's the case, then you can raise the base cabs a bit and lower the DW to fit under the 3/4 stretcher Bob talks about.  The Door panel would then mount to the DW a bit high to align with the drawer front to the right. 

If you're using  the factory stainless panel, then it's not going to work.  Well, it'll work but look like YU%&(*^%.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 339
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 04:44 AM »
The piece I am thinking of would not be visible when finished. It would run flat, 3/4 in height and the width of the piece running front to back, and be attached to the adjacent cabinets. The counter top would rest on it and the front lip or overhang of the counter should actually hide the piece from view. If the DW slides in under the countertop then this piece should present no additional restriction or interference with installing the DW or its door panel if so equipped. It's purpose would be purely structural to stiffen the whole assembly and it would play no visual role as it is hidden from view.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Holzhacker

  • Posts: 861
    • www.aic-chicago.com
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 11:24 AM »
Screw a few 2x4's into the floor at proper position, set cabinets, use either finish nails or a few #1 screws to secure in place
Bob's suggestion of the 1x stretcher is what I've done for a long as I can remember, works great, no issues.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3000
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 01:43 PM »
Hafele makes cabinet connecting bolts, that's what antss was referring to.

https://www.thehardwarehut.com/catalog-product.php?p_ref=278728

I believe I purchased the same item from McFeeleys. They work well and are worth using because they keep the cabinets aligned.

Offline Jim Metzger

  • Posts: 52
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 11:29 AM »
Another consideration is if you haven't had an island in this space before, you are now locating a very heavy concentrated load in the middle of a joist span. You will most likely be running a drain and water supply to that area as well, possibly compromising the strength of the joists. This can cause a severe (greater than L/360) deflection in the floor or worse. Make sure your floor structure is up to the task.


And don't forget outlets for the dishwasher and convenience outlets ( all GFIC) required by code. You also need to vent the sink drain.



Jim




Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 187
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2017, 12:00 PM »
That's a good point.

I think the current deflection is between 400 and 500   (10" joists spanning 16'. I think they are slightly wider than 1.5". 16" on center.   Running perpendicular to the island - I'm not sure if that matters).

The plumbing is going to run under the joists and not through.   Any new electrical is going to run between the joists, or if it runs through, be located at the ends.  I don't expect that there should be any compromises to the joist structure.

That said, I'm always interested in ways to improve things.   Sistering is probably not an option in this space - at least not across the entire joist - too many gas lines and radiator pipes running perpendicular to the joists.  What are some other good ways I could improve the rigidity of the joists in this case?

Thanks,
Adam


« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 01:10 PM by mrFinpgh »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 919
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2017, 07:59 PM »
Bob - et al  what you propose works with FRAMED cabinets but typically not with frameless type.  The kind Mr Fin is building.

The countertop , even if it is "built-up" and lets the lip hang over your 3/4" stretcher would then capture the drawer fronts and door tops so that opening them is impossible.

That 3/4" in a framless install will cause a lot of dishwashers to be uninstallable because they won't shorten to 33 3/4" install height.

The biggest issue though, is what I've already spoken of: the DW panel will not align with the adjacent panels and the boss, client, designer , architect, mother in law ect... will notice and complain.  Trust me.

On frameless const. there is 1/8" from the underside of the countertop and the tops of the doors / drw. fronts.  The only way to use a 3/4" stretcher like you advocate requires :
1. You have a cabinetry panel made for the dishwasher.
2. The dishwasher accepts said panel.
3. That dishwasher is capable of installing at a height lower than 33 3/4".  This generally means a european model, but thre are a few domestic brands too.

If you don't meet all the requirement then there's likely to be complaints.


Regarding the floor deflection - the details are what matters.  You could well be in the L/400 range with 16" x 16' 2x10.  If you really have 2" x 10" joists out of fir, spruce or southern yellow pine.

-but-

you could also have a floor with well under L/200 if you've got unknown species, 9 1/4" tall joists x 1 5/8" wide and they've got a lot of knots and cracks in them.


Oh, And I disagree that the DW must be connected to GFCI circuit.    Not required anywhere I've worked on a project in the last 10 years.   Is that a new NEC amendment for 2017 ?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 08:39 PM by antss »

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 339
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2017, 08:05 PM »
DOH! ! Totally missed that these were frameless cabinets.

Am I the only one who missed that?
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Jim Metzger

  • Posts: 52
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2017, 11:18 PM »
My understanding (I work in the NY City and surrounding area, follow the NYC and IRC) is any outlet within 6 feet of a water source must be GFIC type or as part of a GFIC circuit. NYC is also requiring arc fault protected circuitry for kitchen appliances.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1895
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2017, 04:25 PM »
My understanding (I work in the NY City and surrounding area, follow the NYC and IRC) is any outlet within 6 feet of a water source must be GFIC type or as part of a GFIC circuit. NYC is also requiring arc fault protected circuitry for kitchen appliances.
  I thought we had something similar for Cook County or Chicago as well.  [scratch chin]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 187
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2017, 05:43 PM »
I think that there is an exception for when the outlet is not accessible, but the NEC does also list that dishwashers ought to be under GFCI under 210.8.d

I suppose the simplest is to put the GFCI in the cabinet under the sink.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 152
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2017, 06:19 PM »
I build a pedestal to put the cabinets on. That way I can get it nice and level, even cut it to fit without shims (ideally). Then put sex-bolted together cabinets on top of it. The pedestal is made with pieces that you can screw to the floor, and then pieces that you can screw into from the cabinet above.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 919
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2017, 07:18 PM »
It's my understanding that there are also exceptions later on in 210.8 that don't require a DW have a GFCI.

There are also exceptions for single outlets that have appliances plugged into them.  (or duplex that have two appliances plugged in)  Such as a built in refrigerator.

No way in hades am I gonna let an inspector tell me a 500lb built in fridge needs a GFCI outlet or even a GFCI breaker. 

Bottom line though is, you'll have to abide by your local adoption and or interpretation of the local code.  Inspectors may look for a DW on a protected circuit , but I doubt he's also going to look at the built in microwave, and certainly you guys aren't putting your ovens and ventilation on GFCI circuits.  All those appliances can easily be within 6' of a sink in a lot of kitchens. 

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 152
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2017, 02:44 PM »
GFCI breaker isn't that big of a deal, at least you can replace it at the breaker box. Where as GFCI outlets fail somewhat often... I'd hate to have to tear a fridge out to get to one.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 919
Re: anchoring an island
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2017, 10:32 PM »
That's why you don't use one for an appliance that will conceal it .  ::)