Author Topic: Built-in cabinet lighting - need wiring (door initiated switch) help  (Read 3765 times)

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Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 511
I've been building some built-in's for all of the rooms in my house.  The master walk-in cabinets I built last year had LED's installed under the shelves and we like them very much.  In the built-in we installed a power supply and wired it to a dimmer switch so it's a fairly simple install and works well being a walk-in.  For the built-in's switches don't make as much sense - the kids will close the cabinet doors and forget to turn off the lights. 

the built-in's have multiple doors (just like kitchen cabinets).  When I open a particular door, I'd like the LED's only in that cabinet to light up and when I close the door, the lights turn off.  Here's a pic of my daughter's dry fitted together with no doors or drawers.



I'm not opposed to getting the right parts however I'd prefer to use as many of the parts I already have as possible.  Here's what I have right now:
  • Dimmabe power supply capable of pouring the whole closet
  • 12v LED strip light
 
So I've been looking into sensors and door switches which would power the lights once the doors were opened.  These setups are new to me and I'm not quite sure if I can buy components to utilize the power supply I already have for the entire system or if I need to buy a power supply for each cabinet.  From what I can tell, the switches attach to the power supply and initiate the supply when the sensor is triggered.  Does anyone have experience setting up a system like this who can provide some recommendations?  Any help is appreciated.

Matt

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Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 424
In case it's a 2 wire LED you might get away with putting an over-center actuated micro switch into one of the 12V wires to the strip. The over-center actuated part means that is uses a lever to actuate, giving you more tolerance to fit it as it has a higher actuation range (and variants with a roller won't leave scratches on the doors/rawers), it is relatively easy to fit them inside a small slot inside the walls.

Make sure the power supply and dimmer are OK with being under power without a load connected, in case you used an of-the-shelf strip with the small IR-remote driver/dimmer this shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure that the switch you pick has a high enough amperage rating to take the load on the circuit, but that shouldn't be a problem as they're available up to 10A while still keeping a small form factor. Some shrink-wrap over the contacts might give a better feeling.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 06:56 PM by Gregor »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5056
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
I use refrigerator door switches. They are normal closed, open when the door gets closed.

I interrupt the low voltage + side of the LED driver.

https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-PBS-35C-switch-refrigerator-normally/dp/B072KHSTK6/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1499208979&sr=8-19&keywords=refrigerator+door+switch

Tom


Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 424
I use refrigerator door switches.
Even better plan, as these are easier to mount.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2124
I've used the over-center micro switches and they work great.

Matt, you might be able to use your domino to plunge into the end of a piece of maple to match the cabinet interior.  Perhaps a 2x2 piece.  Slice the mortise out to expose a pocket you could drop the microswitch into and use some hot-melt glue to adhere it and cover up the wires.  A couple of screws and it's at the top or bottom of the cabinet with the microswitch exposed to activate the door movement.

Attached are a couple of drawings that might make it easier to understand.

265185-0


And an x-ray version
265188-1


I've bought a lot of those switches at Radio Shack.  Also available from eBay.

Very inexpensive and they last for a long time.


neil
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 08:35 PM by neilc »

Offline overanalyze

  • Posts: 401
I have used magnetic door contacts like used in security systems for (2) 12v led tape lighting setups. When the door is closed the light is off, open the door and the contact breaks and the light turns on.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3271
I've just started this same project. I'm building built-in cabinets for an upstairs loft. Every drawer will have an LED mounted inside the cabinet to illuminate the contents of the drawer. As the drawer is opened the LED's come on, when closed the LED shuts off.

I'm looking at the Normally Closed switches below. The circuit is always activated until the switch comes within about 3/4" of the magnet, then the reed switch is opened and the electricity no longer flows.

A 3/8" drill is needed to bore the hole for the switch and magnet. The magnet is placed in the moveable part (drawer/door) while the switch body with the electrical leads is mounted to the stationary assembly. Pretty foolproof, they typically have an operating life of over 1,000,000 cycles. They're often used in discrete burglar intrusion systems because they aren't visible. You can't tamper with what you can't see.


http://www.smarthome.com/united-security-products-us-555-3-8-inch-press-fit-magnetic-contact-super-stubby.html

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 511
@Gregor & @neilc - I like the idea of micro-switches and like the idea of installing them in a domino hole even more.  It would certainly be easy to build them into any pre-existing cabinet i have as well.

@tjbnwi - the fridge switches would be perfect and the prices is super reasonable.  What diameter hole do they require?  In the future I'll alter the design of the header board on the cabinet to have enough meat to house the switch.  Hopefully they're on the smaller side (like 1/2-inch) but after looking at my fridge, they could also be closer to 1-inch in diameter too.  Sweet find.

@Cheese - those are neat and kinda where I thought I might be headed.  If they require a 3/8"-diameter hole, how deep does the hole need to be?  Based on the picture it looks like more than an inch but maybe the pic is deceiving.  I need the door side to conceal in a 3/4-inch thick door. 

I think the good news is I'm not looking for an extremely expensive part here which is good, I need about 12 of them.

I need to see how I can figure out if the 110v -> 12v power supply can handle being powered 100% of the time with no load most of it.  That's not something I remember reading in the documentation. 

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 511
I have used magnetic door contacts like used in security systems for (2) 12v led tape lighting setups. When the door is closed the light is off, open the door and the contact breaks and the light turns on.

did you break the + or the - with the magnetic contacts?

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 263
I have used magnetic door contacts like used in security systems for (2) 12v led tape lighting setups. When the door is closed the light is off, open the door and the contact breaks and the light turns on.

did you break the + or the - with the magnetic contacts?

I'm not an electrician, but isn't it standard to interrupt the +?  Otherwise there is constant power to the device.  Even a
Though 12v, it could be annoying to come across open voltage.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 511
I have used magnetic door contacts like used in security systems for (2) 12v led tape lighting setups. When the door is closed the light is off, open the door and the contact breaks and the light turns on.

did you break the + or the - with the magnetic contacts?

I'm not an electrician, but isn't it standard to interrupt the +?  Otherwise there is constant power to the device.  Even a
Though 12v, it could be annoying to come across open voltage.

That's what I thought too but I ask because I wanted to be sure.  I'm always learning.


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Offline Peter Parfitt

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  • Posts: 3663
    • New Brit Workshop on YouTube
Hi @Scorpion

Can you get Hafele Loox kit in the US? If so, look at their 24 volt LED lighting. There are many choices of dimmer and auto switching and it is all beautifully made. I have used it myself on my keyboard cabinet and it is (prepare for the pun) brilliant !

There are more choices with their 24 volt kit compared to their 12 volt stuff. A professional friend advised me that the 24 volt lighting is more reliable.

Peter

Offline overanalyze

  • Posts: 401
I have used magnetic door contacts like used in security systems for (2) 12v led tape lighting setups. When the door is closed the light is off, open the door and the contact breaks and the light turns on.

did you break the + or the - with the magnetic contacts?
I broke the positive. It works really well. In will see if I can get a pic of it. Going to that clients house in a bit.

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Offline rst

  • Posts: 1501
I am a locksmith among the many trades I deal with.  I've always used 24v whenever possible as it is possible to make longer runs with lower gauge wire.  Magnetic switches are available in normally open and normally closed variations and are also available with different gaps for the switching.  There are surface mounted and inserted versions where you just drill a 3/8" or 1/4" hole.  With super magnets you can use the switch to hold the door shut.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 424
Regarding the fridge switches: these are rated for 3A (which boils down to ~35W with a 12V system) but I wouldn't load them that high with DC current (as of more intense sparking compared to AC) for them to last (especially should children use them as strobe lights by playing on the switches).

12V vs. 24V: the latter runs 1/2 the A through the wires (and switches), also voltage drop in longer runs isn't that problematic.

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 511
Hi @Scorpion

Can you get Hafele Loox kit in the US? If so, look at their 24 volt LED lighting. There are many choices of dimmer and auto switching and it is all beautifully made. I have used it myself on my keyboard cabinet and it is (prepare for the pun) brilliant !

There are more choices with their 24 volt kit compared to their 12 volt stuff. A professional friend advised me that the 24 volt lighting is more reliable.

Peter

Very interesting, I didn't even know why there were 2 different voltage systems though I have noticed before.  Any idea why 24v is more reliable?  Is it due to the voltage itself?

I checked and according to the Hafele US site, the 24v components are available here.  I've noticed the Loox stuff before and that's where this thread originated from.  I was looking at the install diagram(s) -



and came to the conclusion that, by using their systems, I'd need 3 power supplies for each of the built-ins and I'd be constrained to using their pre-built cable lengths instead of the low voltage wire I have that I can define the length (cut from a spool) myself.  I was also concerned that I could only have two sensors per power supply.

Side-bar:  I'm a little surprised that I've not yet found better diagrams or how-to's for cabinet light system assemblies. 


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Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 511
Regarding the fridge switches: these are rated for 3A (which boils down to ~35W with a 12V system) but I wouldn't load them that high with DC current (as of more intense sparking compared to AC) for them to last (especially should children use them as strobe lights by playing on the switches).

12V vs. 24V: the latter runs 1/2 the A through the wires (and switches), also voltage drop in longer runs isn't that problematic.

They won't work with the power supply I purchased then.  It's a 100W unit I think.  It would probably fry them instantly.  Id need to use smaller supplies (which maybe isn't a bad idea).

Is there a formula for voltage drop over a certain distance?  Not sure how that comes into play when designing a system.  Thus far I know how many inches of strip light a power supply can power.


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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5056
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Regarding the fridge switches: these are rated for 3A (which boils down to ~35W with a 12V system) but I wouldn't load them that high with DC current (as of more intense sparking compared to AC) for them to last (especially should children use them as strobe lights by playing on the switches).

12V vs. 24V: the latter runs 1/2 the A through the wires (and switches), also voltage drop in longer runs isn't that problematic.

They won't work with the power supply I purchased then.  It's a 100W unit I think.  It would probably fry them instantly.  Id need to use smaller supplies (which maybe isn't a bad idea).

Is there a formula for voltage drop over a certain distance?  Not sure how that comes into play when designing a system.  Thus far I know how many inches of strip light a power supply can power.


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The output of the power supply is immaterial to the switch load. 15 amp switches are used on 200 amp supplied systems all the time. The only thing that matters is the load the switch is controlling. I highly doubt you'll be loading the switch anywhere near 3A.

The 12V high output tape I'm using is 0.6 amps per meter @ 222 lumens per foot. Average run length is 2 feet.
Longest run I have is 3 meters, this run is controlled by a 15 line voltage wall switch turning on the receptacle the driver is plugged into.

If you're worried about voltage drop, do the install as a ring system.

Tom

Offline Peter Parfitt

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  • Posts: 3663
    • New Brit Workshop on YouTube
Hi @Scorpion

Can you get Hafele Loox kit in the US? If so, look at their 24 volt LED lighting. There are many choices of dimmer and auto switching and it is all beautifully made. I have used it myself on my keyboard cabinet and it is (prepare for the pun) brilliant !

There are more choices with their 24 volt kit compared to their 12 volt stuff. A professional friend advised me that the 24 volt lighting is more reliable.

Peter

Very interesting, I didn't even know why there were 2 different voltage systems though I have noticed before.  Any idea why 24v is more reliable?  Is it due to the voltage itself?

I checked and according to the Hafele US site, the 24v components are available here.  I've noticed the Loox stuff before and that's where this thread originated from.  I was looking at the install diagram(s) -



and came to the conclusion that, by using their systems, I'd need 3 power supplies for each of the built-ins and I'd be constrained to using their pre-built cable lengths instead of the low voltage wire I have that I can define the length (cut from a spool) myself.  I was also concerned that I could only have two sensors per power supply.

Side-bar:  I'm a little surprised that I've not yet found better diagrams or how-to's for cabinet light system assemblies. 


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I really am not an expert in this and relied very much on my friend who uses nothing but 24 volt LED systems in seriously high end kit that he custom makes for his clients. My own observation of the Hafele kit is that there are many more options and connectivity methods with the 24 volt kit compared to the 12 volt kit. I can only guess at the reliability and would agree that there is a chance that the extra dash of volts may help.

Hafele kit is superb and I have no hesitation in recommending it - and for the record I have bought every piece of HafeleLED kit that I have used in my keyboard cabinet.

You mentioned using your own cable - I did and, if it helps, here is a link to the keyboard lighting video:



Peter

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1173
Peter , et al  - in the USA , the opposite is true.

They are very few 24v systems available here. 

 LooX is available in both voltages through Hafele and the systems are very competitively priced. 

24v is more efficient - less wasted wattage for a given system.  Which is prob. why it's more popular in Europe where electricity is more expensive.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 424
24v is more efficient - less wasted wattage for a given system.
Could you please elaborate how you come to this conclusion?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5056
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Peter , et al  - in the USA , the opposite is true.

They are very few 24v systems available here. 

 LooX is available in both voltages through Hafele and the systems are very competitively priced. 

24v is more efficient - less wasted wattage for a given system.  Which is prob. why it's more popular in Europe where electricity is more expensive.

GM Lighting. Pick your voltage and output.

http://gmlighting.net

Tom

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3271
I settled on 12v because the bulb/LED selection was so much greater. I'm powering 19 fence lights, 26 bollards, 3 spotlights and 2 step lights with just 2 very small Triad solid-state, potted transformers rated at 40 watts each.

The main line to each of the 5 junction boxes is via 12 ga wire and from each junction box to the lights 14 ga wire is used. The longest continuous run is 80 feet. All lights are on from dusk to dawn and it's been working for over 7 years.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 07:40 AM by Cheese »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1173
GM Lighting. Pick your voltage and output.
http://gmlighting.net
Tom


^^^ 
illustrates my point exactly - there are at least two times as many 12v options from this company as there are 24v.

gregor - the voltage drop is going to cause the 12v transformer to work harder; wasting more wattage that just makes heat.    This has no real practical value for something like scorpion's cabinet which will probably have less than 10ft. / 3m of cabling.  The drop/loss won't even be measurable with equipment available to most people.

On a practical note: the 24v systems allow for use of smaller sized wire, which can be an advantage for concealing them in cabinets or shelves.  Especially if you're drilling a hole in a 19mm thick board.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 424
Gregor - the voltage drop is going to cause the 12v transformer to work harder; wasting more wattage that just makes heat.    This has no real practical value for something like scorpion's cabinet which will probably have less than 10ft. / 3m of cabling.  The drop/loss won't even be measurable with equipment available to most people.
The 24V is, speaking efficiency, worse than the 12V version as the resistors dropping the voltage down to the level the LED needs might create little bit more heat - but as you stated it's neglible.

Quote
On a practical note: the 24v systems allow for use of smaller sized wire, which can be an advantage for concealing them in cabinets or shelves.  Especially if you're drilling a hole in a 19mm thick board.
With LED that is also not that big of a problem anymore as 1.5mm² is fine for 10A (which would translate to 120W @12V) quite bright with LED these days, compared to classical 12V halogen filament bulbs.

IMHO the only real issue with 12V is voltage drop on long runs (30m+, when you have a central transformer and pull wires from there to the fixtures of a room) where the reduced voltage on the end of the wire might lead to the leds no longer providing the intended brightness (as a 0.5V change in line voltage might translate to a 50% change to the voltage at the input of the leds, after the resistor that is mounted infront of them). For such setups a 24V system has benefits, also when you additionally run industrial bus stuff (as this also often runs on 24V, for the same reasons) because you can then share the transformers for both lighting and the bus connectors.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 08:07 PM by Gregor »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3271

@Cheese - those are neat and kinda where I thought I might be headed.  If they require a 3/8"-diameter hole, how deep does the hole need to be?  Based on the picture it looks like more than an inch but maybe the pic is deceiving.  I need the door side to conceal in a 3/4-inch thick door. 

I need to see how I can figure out if the 110v -> 12v power supply can handle being powered 100% of the time with no load most of it.  That's not something I remember reading in the documentation.

Hey @Scorpion the sensors come in different lengths depending upon their manufacturer. The sensor itself shouldn't be an issue, I think your concern is centered on the magnetic actuator. The actuators can be rather lengthy, however I've found some that are only 3/8"-1/2" long. I haven't tried it, but I would think that a small, thin rare earth neodymium magnet would actuate the sensor if it is installed with the proper polarity. These magnets are typically only 1/16"-1/4" thick.

I can't imagine there will be an issue with constant power being supplied to the transformer/driver. If there's no load, no current will be drawn.