Author Topic: How not to tile a shower...  (Read 9942 times)

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Offline jaguar36

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 10:29 AM »
Getting a quote that was $8k less than what was presumably already a discounted "Family rate" would set off all sorts of alarm bells with me.

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Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 399
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2017, 09:32 PM »
It indeed is a sad state when consumers are blinded by cost or slippery talk or both.  I have gone up against this type of "competition" too many times to count. Hopefully there can be some legal recourse to soften the blow.  Unfortunately (at least in MN) there isn't enough statutory protection.  Hopefully this will resolve itself quickly.

I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

The shower will be resolved mid next week.

Tom
I’m guessing she’s not exactly a favorite relative of yours...
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 10:01 PM »
Getting a quote that was $8k less than what was presumably already a discounted "Family rate" would set off all sorts of alarm bells with me.

There were 5 people in this world that got/get a discount from me--two were my parents, now deceased--the other 3 are our children, their discount is 100%.

What they (and everyone else who hires me) get with me is someone who actually cares about the job that is being done on their home.

I believe most jobs are dome poorly due to the chasing of the dollar. They're robbing Peter to pay Paul. I price my services so chasing the dollar is never a concern for me.

This may all seem cold but it is just business.

Tom




Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2017, 10:05 PM »
It indeed is a sad state when consumers are blinded by cost or slippery talk or both.  I have gone up against this type of "competition" too many times to count. Hopefully there can be some legal recourse to soften the blow.  Unfortunately (at least in MN) there isn't enough statutory protection.  Hopefully this will resolve itself quickly.

I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

The shower will be resolved mid next week.

Tom
I’m guessing she’s not exactly a favorite relative of yours...

I'm fine with her. She made a bad decision based on money. I see no need for the courts to get involved.

Our son in law is a partner in a law firm, his specialty is construction defect law. She is going to call him and get his opinion on this.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3871
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2017, 11:12 PM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2017, 11:29 PM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”

She's been my SIL for 39+ years. She had my price and a proposal from another company, we were within 500 dollars of each other.

This isn't like buying a car or other commodity (easy to compare like kind and quality). If you are going to have a service preformed you have a few choices and decisions to make;

Go with a trusted service provider.

Learn the necessary steps to a successful project. Write spec sheet.

Don't watch home improvement porn.

Tom


Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 399
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 06:45 AM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”
@Cheese illustrates exactly the point I made originally.  This contractor should not be allowed to harm others.  If your SIL specifically made spurious comments regarding your price (and the other company) as compared to the one she accepted, then she does own some responsibility in this failure.  A truly informed person cannot legitimately compare proposal X to proposals X + 8000.  I can understand how product selection makes up for some of the difference, but not anywhere near $8000.

If a person with no psychological issues walks onto the freeway at rush hour and expects not to get hurt, then he must shoulder the responsibility of his actions. Other than that, no one deserves to get hurt.  We as contractors have a measure of responsibility to educate consumers about the pitfalls of “home improvement porn”.  I don’t believe most consumers truly understand what we understand.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1045
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2017, 07:05 AM »
I don’t believe most consumers truly understand what we understand.

Most don't understand design drawings or plans. [sad]
A couple of years doing kitchen and bathroom design taught me that and I still get caught off guard occasionally by clients that I have thought more capable than they are  [doh]

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2017, 09:01 AM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”
@Cheese illustrates exactly the point I made originally.  This contractor should not be allowed to harm others.  If your SIL specifically made spurious comments regarding your price (and the other company) as compared to the one she accepted, then she does own some responsibility in this failure.  A truly informed person cannot legitimately compare proposal X to proposals X + 8000.  I can understand how product selection makes up for some of the difference, but not anywhere near $8000.

If a person with no psychological issues walks onto the freeway at rush hour and expects not to get hurt, then he must shoulder the responsibility of his actions. Other than that, no one deserves to get hurt.  We as contractors have a measure of responsibility to educate consumers about the pitfalls of “home improvement porn”.  I don’t believe most consumers truly understand what we understand.

I missed cheese's licensing comment--he has no license with the AHJ, no insurance, no bond. They did not get a permit to do the work. All of which she knew.

She had my spec's, simple enough to hand anyone else the page and have them price LKQ.

I have no sympathy for those who buy based on price. If there is that much difference in the price across the proposals you need to ask why.

There is not a single code violation in this job. Waterproofing except on the pan is not required in any of the model codes. There are the violations of local ordinance for the licensing and permits.

Very few consumers are open to the "education", Walmart drives the thinking of most.

She walked onto the expressway and got run over.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3871
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2017, 10:17 AM »

I missed cheese's licensing comment--he has no license with the AHJ, no insurance, no bond. They did not get a permit to do the work. All of which she knew.

She had my spec's, simple enough to hand anyone else the page and have them price LKQ.


Well that certainly makes a difference. With no license, no insurance and no bond, this guy has nothing to lose. He's just free to knock on doors and hawk his wares. Kind of like the old western grifter working his way from town to town.  [eek]

So there's not too much a person can do to prevent this guy from praying on other victims. That's too bad... [mad]

And if your SIL did just hand your specs to the Grifter, shame on her...I guess she'll not be invited to Thanksgiving this year.  [big grin]

Offline wkearney99

  • Posts: 65
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2017, 02:02 PM »
If anyone's looking for a good tile forum, try John Bridge

There's a ton of great threads over there. 

There's likely more ways to lay tile than any other building material.  But you never, ever lay it straight onto wood without at least some sort of stabilizing and waterproofing material.  Wood moves too much and tile does not, so just a moisture barrier like RedGuard is NOT enough.  Likewise, tile and mortar are not 100% waterproof.  They're pretty good at resisting water going through them, but they're porous enough, and there's enough potential for cracks in grout, so make for some really ugly problems if you don't properly manage moisture.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3083
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2017, 03:34 PM »
If anyone's looking for a good tile forum, try John Bridge

There's a ton of great threads over there. 

There's likely more ways to lay tile than any other building material.  But you never, ever lay it straight onto wood without at least some sort of stabilizing and waterproofing material.  Wood moves too much and tile does not, so just a moisture barrier like RedGuard is NOT enough.  Likewise, tile and mortar are not 100% waterproof.  They're pretty good at resisting water going through them, but they're porous enough, and there's enough potential for cracks in grout, so make for some really ugly problems if you don't properly manage moisture.

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 612
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2017, 05:00 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout. 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3083
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2017, 06:05 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout.

So, do cement boards need to be installed over a waterproof membrane when attached to wood?

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 612
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2017, 06:40 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout.

So, do cement boards need to be installed over a waterproof membrane when attached to wood?

I am no expert in what building inspectors would want as a minimum from location to location, but common best practice nowadays is to attach the cement board to the framing, and then apply the waterproofing membrane over the cement board (e.g. RedGuard or Kerdi or others).  Then tile over the membrane.  So the waterproof barrier is right behind the tile...the cement board never sees the moisture as long as the membrane is installed correctly.  The moisture that gets to the membrane via the tile/grout has a return path to dry right where it came from. 

A cheaper, slightly older but common practice (and flawed) is to place a moisture barrier (e.g. poly) between the cement board and the wood.  The flaw is twofold.  (1) The screws that attach the cement board to the wood framing are going to puncture the membrane and allow a path for moisture into the wood.  (2) Moisture that gets through the tile/grout and then through the cement board will collect at the poly - it won't be able to dry out as easily and collected water is a bad thing even if the cement board itself isn't harmed. 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 399
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2017, 07:56 PM »
Very few consumers are open to the "education"
………………………………………

Well, I guess I’m dealing with the few who are.  I rarely have a problem educating clients and if I sense early early on that I will, I don’t even proceed past a phone consult.  I’m not afraid to tell prospective clients that I’m not the right contractor for them.  I’d rather bruise my own pride now, than let them do it later.  Life’s too short for that.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2017, 08:05 PM »
If anyone's looking for a good tile forum, try John Bridge

There's a ton of great threads over there. 

There's likely more ways to lay tile than any other building material.  But you never, ever lay it straight onto wood without at least some sort of stabilizing and waterproofing material.  Wood moves too much and tile does not, so just a moisture barrier like RedGuard is NOT enough.  Likewise, tile and mortar are not 100% waterproof.  They're pretty good at resisting water going through them, but they're porous enough, and there's enough potential for cracks in grout, so make for some really ugly problems if you don't properly manage moisture.

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

No, think about cement itself, it's not water proof.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2017, 08:06 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout.

So, do cement boards need to be installed over a waterproof membrane when attached to wood?

Never ever install any tile substrate in a shower over any type of water/vapor barrier. NEVER.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2017, 08:16 PM »
I don't use cementitous backer, I'm to old to be lugging that heavy stuff around. My go to is Schluter Kerdi board or Kerdi on walls. Floors get Ditra or Dirta Heat.

Tom
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:10 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3083
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2017, 09:00 PM »
The Schluter system seems really well thought out.
I think I used some kind of Schluter mat on my tile floor in 1992 but haven't given tiling much attention since then.

How do you seal the edges of the waterproof wall membrane?
What are those square patches on the wall.

I hope you post more pictures of the process so I can learn something. Had some fun loopking at images of "dirt heat"  ;)

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 407
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2017, 09:01 PM »
Tom

The text below is from the Daltile website. It seems to contradict your advice or am I misunderstanding something.


Check to make sure that the cement backer board is sound after removing the old tile. If not, you'll need to remove the old and install a new backer board.

Apply a waterproof membrane to the backer board to ensure that water can’t seep through and cause damage.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Tom

The text below is from the Daltile website. It seems to contradict your advice or am I misunderstanding something.


Check to make sure that the cement backer board is sound after removing the old tile. If not, you'll need to remove the old and install a new backer board.

Apply a waterproof membrane to the backer board to ensure that water can’t seep through and cause damage.

We'll skip the first line.

If you're referring to my statement about not installing backer over any water/vapor barrier their second statement agrees with mine. You install the waterproofing on the tile side of the board, not behind it.

Tom


Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2017, 09:14 PM »
The Schluter system seems really well thought out.
I think I used some kind of Schluter mat on my tile floor in 1992 but haven't given tiling much attention since then.

How do you seal the edges of the waterproof wall membrane?
What are those square patches on the wall.

I hope you post more pictures of the process so I can learn something. Had some fun loopking at images of "dirt heat"  ;)

The mat you used in '92 was the original Ditra.

Kerdi band and Kerdi corners.

Kerdi band cut to 5x5 squares, they cover the washer/screws.

I'm water proofing the shower that started this thread tomorrow in preparation of the water test. I'll take more pictures of the process as it proceeds.

Tom

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 407
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2017, 09:42 PM »
"Never ever install any tile substrate in a shower over any type of water/vapor barrier. NEVER."

Ah. Tile substrate is where I misunderstood. Thanks.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2017, 09:57 PM »
"Never ever install any tile substrate in a shower over any type of water/vapor barrier. NEVER."

Ah. Tile substrate is where I misunderstood. Thanks.

I choose the word "substrate" due to all the choices.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3871
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2017, 10:26 PM »
I don't use cementitous backer, I'm to old to be lugging that heavy stuff around. My go to is Schluter Kerdi board or Kerdi on walls. Floors get Ditra or Dirta Heat.

Well I’m also well into a bath remodel and even though I’m probably older than Tom [poke] I am still willing to lug that cementious based product around. It’s just my knee jerk reaction to using a belt and suspenders approach. It’s also the difference between doing this stuff for a living and doing this stuff for fun. Bottom line is, I’m getting too old too fast to not ensure that every project I tackle will be the last time I need to touch it.

I concur with everything thing else Tom has stated and will be using Kerdi membrane over the cement board and using Ditra Heat on the floor. It appears to be a well thought out system.

There will also be no shower curb. Just another obstacle you have to hurdle.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2017, 10:33 PM »
I don't use cementitous backer, I'm to old to be lugging that heavy stuff around. My go to is Schluter Kerdi board or Kerdi on walls. Floors get Ditra or Dirta Heat.

Well I’m also well into a bath remodel and even though I’m probably older than Tom [poke] I am still willing to lug that cementious based product around. It’s just my knee jerk reaction to using a belt and suspenders approach. It’s also the difference between doing this stuff for a living and doing this stuff for fun. Bottom line is, I’m getting too old too fast to not ensure that every project I tackle will be the last time I need to touch it.

I concur with everything thing else Tom has stated and will be using Kerdi membrane over the cement board and using Ditra Heat on the floor. It appears to be a well thought out system.

There will also be no shower curb. Just another obstacle you have to hurdle.

Why do you feel cement board is better?

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

How are you doing the shower floor? Who's drain?

Don't skip the flood test.

Tom


Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1166
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2017, 10:39 PM »

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

Tom

As in 100 sq.ft of floor = 90 lineal foot of cabling?
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2017, 10:51 PM »

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

Tom

As in 100 sq.ft of floor = 90 lineal foot of cabling?

90 square feet of cabling.

The way the cable is figured;

total room square feet--

deduct the tub area, vanity area, toilet foot print, vertical buffer area

Example;

100 sq ft room

tub 15 sq ft

vanity 15 sq ft

toilet 2 sq ft

3" wall buffer--(we'll use 3" x 20 feet of verticals) 5 sq ft.

100-37= 63 sq ft of area to be heated.

Order a cable that will cover 55-60 sq ft.

Schluter has a calculator on-line for this.

Tom


Offline harry_

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2017, 11:05 PM »
Gotcha, Thanks.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).