Author Topic: How not to tile a shower...  (Read 10899 times)

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
How not to tile a shower...
« on: October 23, 2017, 09:34 PM »
To start with, avoid wood in the shower...

The shower has about 12 uses on it since it was remodeled. They quit using it 3 months ago, there was still 16" of water in the wall.

Tom

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Offline duburban

  • Posts: 903
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 09:54 PM »
With all the information on the internet people still do this... buying the materials and placing them directly in the dumpster would be more environmentally friendly
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 10:02 PM »
With all the information on the internet people still do this... buying the materials and placing them directly in the dumpster would be more environmentally friendly

It;'s my SIL's shower---she paid to have this done [doh]

Tom

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 903
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 10:19 PM »
do you have any pics before the demo?
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 10:28 PM »
do you have any pics before the demo?

None of the entire shower.

Tom

Online Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 12:28 AM »
Not sure what I'm looking at in the picts. Did they lay tile directly on plywood or mdf?
+1

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 12:31 AM »
Not sure what I'm looking at in the picts. Did they lay tile directly on plywood or mdf?

That's a plywood wall. They also used OSB in some areas.

They also set some tiles directly on framing members.

Tom

Offline MLW

  • Posts: 7
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 01:04 AM »
Not sure what I'm looking at in the picts. Did they lay tile directly on plywood or mdf?

That's a plywood wall. They also used OSB in some areas.

They also set some tiles directly on framing members.

Tom
Why didn't your sister consult with you first?


_____________
[emoji631][emoji631]

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 03:13 AM »
They also set some tiles directly on framing members.

Some sirens are going off on this one...

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 03:19 AM »
‘‘Tis a shame because the install appears to be a nice one. Unfortunately this is how many start and how many end. Tragic that you spend your $$ and receive this as a result.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 405
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 06:30 AM »
I certainly hope this work wasn't performed by a tile contractor.
Dance with who brung ya...

Online Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2017, 07:37 AM »
Not sure what I'm looking at in the picts. Did they lay tile directly on plywood or mdf?

That's a plywood wall. They also used OSB in some areas.

They also set some tiles directly on framing members.

Tom

Is that bad??

 [poke]
+1

Online Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 07:42 AM »
‘‘Tis a shame because the install appears to be a nice one. Unfortunately this is how many start and how many end. Tragic that you spend your $$ and receive this as a result.

Reminds me why I DIY and over-engineer just about everything.
+1

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2017, 08:20 AM »
Not sure what I'm looking at in the picts. Did they lay tile directly on plywood or mdf?

That's a plywood wall. They also used OSB in some areas.

They also set some tiles directly on framing members.

Tom
Why didn't your sister consult with you first?


_____________
[emoji631][emoji631]

My price was to high. She saved herself about 8K from the stories we heard.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 08:23 AM »
‘‘Tis a shame because the install appears to be a nice one. Unfortunately this is how many start and how many end. Tragic that you spend your $$ and receive this as a result.

Easy to save 8K when the most important steps are left out.

The 8K savings was not the results of the waterproofing being omitted. The vanity and other casework are nowhere near what she had requested and I had in my original proposal.

I have no sympathy in these situations.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 08:24 AM »
Not sure what I'm looking at in the picts. Did they lay tile directly on plywood or mdf?

That's a plywood wall. They also used OSB in some areas.

They also set some tiles directly on framing members.

Tom

Is that bad??

 [poke]

Yes.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 08:26 AM »
I certainly hope this work wasn't performed by a tile contractor.

Your hopes would be dashed...

Tom

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1820
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 08:27 AM »
Looks like you married the right sister. [scratch chin]
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 08:31 AM »
Looks like you married the right sister. [scratch chin]

In more ways than this...

Tom

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 662
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 08:49 AM »
I once saw a tile guy use mastic for setting the tile on the shower walls.  (Not my project.)

When mastic gets wet the water will re-emulsify the adhesive base and the tiles may fall off.  Not good.
Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Online Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2017, 08:58 AM »

My price was to high. She saved herself about 8K from the stories we heard.

Tom

Let's reassess that savings after the do-over
+1

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2017, 11:57 AM »
... buying the materials and placing them directly in the dumpster would be more environmentally friendly

Funny... [thumbs up]

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 270
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 01:46 PM »
People make mistakes like this all the time.  I can walk around my neighbor and see decks using  OSB instead of treated plywood, unsecured deck beams sitting on on top of pavers and rails only held in with 2 inch screws. 

When see what’s going on outside the home, you can only image how bad things are inside the house.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2017, 09:31 PM »

My price was to high. She saved herself about 8K from the stories we heard.

Tom

Let's reassess that savings after the do-over

The redo is 10K.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2017, 10:44 PM »
The redo is 10K.

I’m surprised it isn’t more because of the price of the demo and all those materials have to be purchased a 2nd time, and then there’s the mold thing.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 10:47 PM »
‘‘Tis a shame because the install appears to be a nice one. Unfortunately this is how many start and how many end. Tragic that you spend your $$ and receive this as a result.

Take a closer look, I can see that the field tile grout lines (horiz.) are not aligned in pics 1& 2. 

In pic 3 the squares are not in the same plane as the rectangles above and below.  That strip of squares also undulates something terrible, I don't even need a straight edge to tell.    Hard to be certain from the pix, but I'll bet the corners are grouted also.

Though I must say the niches don't look half bad from here.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 11:36 PM »
‘‘Tis a shame because the install appears to be a nice one. Unfortunately this is how many start and how many end. Tragic that you spend your $$ and receive this as a result.

Take a closer look, I can see that the field tile grout lines (horiz.) are not aligned in pics 1& 2. 

In pic 3 the squares are not in the same plane as the rectangles above and below.  That strip of squares also undulates something terrible, I don't even need a straight edge to tell.    Hard to be certain from the pix, but I'll bet the corners are grouted also.

Though I must say the niches don't look half bad from here.

She wants the squares out of plane with the rectangular tiles. I asked her about correcting that (I honestly don't think the guy knew how to correct the plane issue).

Tom

Tom

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 405
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2017, 06:09 AM »
It indeed is a sad state when consumers are blinded by cost or slippery talk or both.  I have gone up against this type of "competition" too many times to count. Hopefully there can be some legal recourse to soften the blow.  Unfortunately (at least in MN) there isn't enough statutory protection.  Hopefully this will resolve itself quickly.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2017, 08:30 AM »
It indeed is a sad state when consumers are blinded by cost or slippery talk or both.  I have gone up against this type of "competition" too many times to count. Hopefully there can be some legal recourse to soften the blow.  Unfortunately (at least in MN) there isn't enough statutory protection.  Hopefully this will resolve itself quickly.

I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

The shower will be resolved mid next week.

Tom

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3436
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2017, 09:34 AM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

Hear, hear!!!   [thumbs up]
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline jaguar36

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    • Toolamanjaro.com
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 10:29 AM »
Getting a quote that was $8k less than what was presumably already a discounted "Family rate" would set off all sorts of alarm bells with me.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 405
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2017, 09:32 PM »
It indeed is a sad state when consumers are blinded by cost or slippery talk or both.  I have gone up against this type of "competition" too many times to count. Hopefully there can be some legal recourse to soften the blow.  Unfortunately (at least in MN) there isn't enough statutory protection.  Hopefully this will resolve itself quickly.

I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

The shower will be resolved mid next week.

Tom
I’m guessing she’s not exactly a favorite relative of yours...
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 10:01 PM »
Getting a quote that was $8k less than what was presumably already a discounted "Family rate" would set off all sorts of alarm bells with me.

There were 5 people in this world that got/get a discount from me--two were my parents, now deceased--the other 3 are our children, their discount is 100%.

What they (and everyone else who hires me) get with me is someone who actually cares about the job that is being done on their home.

I believe most jobs are dome poorly due to the chasing of the dollar. They're robbing Peter to pay Paul. I price my services so chasing the dollar is never a concern for me.

This may all seem cold but it is just business.

Tom




Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2017, 10:05 PM »
It indeed is a sad state when consumers are blinded by cost or slippery talk or both.  I have gone up against this type of "competition" too many times to count. Hopefully there can be some legal recourse to soften the blow.  Unfortunately (at least in MN) there isn't enough statutory protection.  Hopefully this will resolve itself quickly.

I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

The shower will be resolved mid next week.

Tom
I’m guessing she’s not exactly a favorite relative of yours...

I'm fine with her. She made a bad decision based on money. I see no need for the courts to get involved.

Our son in law is a partner in a law firm, his specialty is construction defect law. She is going to call him and get his opinion on this.

Tom

Online Cheese

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2017, 11:12 PM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2017, 11:29 PM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”

She's been my SIL for 39+ years. She had my price and a proposal from another company, we were within 500 dollars of each other.

This isn't like buying a car or other commodity (easy to compare like kind and quality). If you are going to have a service preformed you have a few choices and decisions to make;

Go with a trusted service provider.

Learn the necessary steps to a successful project. Write spec sheet.

Don't watch home improvement porn.

Tom


Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 405
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 06:45 AM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”
@Cheese illustrates exactly the point I made originally.  This contractor should not be allowed to harm others.  If your SIL specifically made spurious comments regarding your price (and the other company) as compared to the one she accepted, then she does own some responsibility in this failure.  A truly informed person cannot legitimately compare proposal X to proposals X + 8000.  I can understand how product selection makes up for some of the difference, but not anywhere near $8000.

If a person with no psychological issues walks onto the freeway at rush hour and expects not to get hurt, then he must shoulder the responsibility of his actions. Other than that, no one deserves to get hurt.  We as contractors have a measure of responsibility to educate consumers about the pitfalls of “home improvement porn”.  I don’t believe most consumers truly understand what we understand.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1052
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2017, 07:05 AM »
I don’t believe most consumers truly understand what we understand.

Most don't understand design drawings or plans. [sad]
A couple of years doing kitchen and bathroom design taught me that and I still get caught off guard occasionally by clients that I have thought more capable than they are  [doh]

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2017, 09:01 AM »
I hope she has no recourse, the law should not protect you from your own stupidity.

I agree totally with that statement, however not every homeowner knows the poignant questions to ask a contractor and can understand what the repercussions that a faulty install may entail. Consider your SIL... had she asked the correct questions, assuming she knew what to ask the contractor in the first place, and had she been given honest answers by the contractor she hired...she may have never been in the situation she is in now.

Personally, I find it imperative to pursue the general contractor for damages because it’s not just a situation of butchering your SIL’s house but rather how many more houses will he bastardize in the future before he’s presented papers or has his license revoked.

What may be obvious to some of us is not necessarily obvious to others that just want to “take out the garbage and rake the leaves.”
@Cheese illustrates exactly the point I made originally.  This contractor should not be allowed to harm others.  If your SIL specifically made spurious comments regarding your price (and the other company) as compared to the one she accepted, then she does own some responsibility in this failure.  A truly informed person cannot legitimately compare proposal X to proposals X + 8000.  I can understand how product selection makes up for some of the difference, but not anywhere near $8000.

If a person with no psychological issues walks onto the freeway at rush hour and expects not to get hurt, then he must shoulder the responsibility of his actions. Other than that, no one deserves to get hurt.  We as contractors have a measure of responsibility to educate consumers about the pitfalls of “home improvement porn”.  I don’t believe most consumers truly understand what we understand.

I missed cheese's licensing comment--he has no license with the AHJ, no insurance, no bond. They did not get a permit to do the work. All of which she knew.

She had my spec's, simple enough to hand anyone else the page and have them price LKQ.

I have no sympathy for those who buy based on price. If there is that much difference in the price across the proposals you need to ask why.

There is not a single code violation in this job. Waterproofing except on the pan is not required in any of the model codes. There are the violations of local ordinance for the licensing and permits.

Very few consumers are open to the "education", Walmart drives the thinking of most.

She walked onto the expressway and got run over.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2017, 10:17 AM »

I missed cheese's licensing comment--he has no license with the AHJ, no insurance, no bond. They did not get a permit to do the work. All of which she knew.

She had my spec's, simple enough to hand anyone else the page and have them price LKQ.


Well that certainly makes a difference. With no license, no insurance and no bond, this guy has nothing to lose. He's just free to knock on doors and hawk his wares. Kind of like the old western grifter working his way from town to town.  [eek]

So there's not too much a person can do to prevent this guy from praying on other victims. That's too bad... [mad]

And if your SIL did just hand your specs to the Grifter, shame on her...I guess she'll not be invited to Thanksgiving this year.  [big grin]

Offline wkearney99

  • Posts: 65
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2017, 02:02 PM »
If anyone's looking for a good tile forum, try John Bridge

There's a ton of great threads over there. 

There's likely more ways to lay tile than any other building material.  But you never, ever lay it straight onto wood without at least some sort of stabilizing and waterproofing material.  Wood moves too much and tile does not, so just a moisture barrier like RedGuard is NOT enough.  Likewise, tile and mortar are not 100% waterproof.  They're pretty good at resisting water going through them, but they're porous enough, and there's enough potential for cracks in grout, so make for some really ugly problems if you don't properly manage moisture.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3138
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2017, 03:34 PM »
If anyone's looking for a good tile forum, try John Bridge

There's a ton of great threads over there. 

There's likely more ways to lay tile than any other building material.  But you never, ever lay it straight onto wood without at least some sort of stabilizing and waterproofing material.  Wood moves too much and tile does not, so just a moisture barrier like RedGuard is NOT enough.  Likewise, tile and mortar are not 100% waterproof.  They're pretty good at resisting water going through them, but they're porous enough, and there's enough potential for cracks in grout, so make for some really ugly problems if you don't properly manage moisture.

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2017, 05:00 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout. 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3138
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2017, 06:05 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout.

So, do cement boards need to be installed over a waterproof membrane when attached to wood?

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2017, 06:40 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout.

So, do cement boards need to be installed over a waterproof membrane when attached to wood?

I am no expert in what building inspectors would want as a minimum from location to location, but common best practice nowadays is to attach the cement board to the framing, and then apply the waterproofing membrane over the cement board (e.g. RedGuard or Kerdi or others).  Then tile over the membrane.  So the waterproof barrier is right behind the tile...the cement board never sees the moisture as long as the membrane is installed correctly.  The moisture that gets to the membrane via the tile/grout has a return path to dry right where it came from. 

A cheaper, slightly older but common practice (and flawed) is to place a moisture barrier (e.g. poly) between the cement board and the wood.  The flaw is twofold.  (1) The screws that attach the cement board to the wood framing are going to puncture the membrane and allow a path for moisture into the wood.  (2) Moisture that gets through the tile/grout and then through the cement board will collect at the poly - it won't be able to dry out as easily and collected water is a bad thing even if the cement board itself isn't harmed. 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 405
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2017, 07:56 PM »
Very few consumers are open to the "education"
………………………………………

Well, I guess I’m dealing with the few who are.  I rarely have a problem educating clients and if I sense early early on that I will, I don’t even proceed past a phone consult.  I’m not afraid to tell prospective clients that I’m not the right contractor for them.  I’d rather bruise my own pride now, than let them do it later.  Life’s too short for that.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2017, 08:05 PM »
If anyone's looking for a good tile forum, try John Bridge

There's a ton of great threads over there. 

There's likely more ways to lay tile than any other building material.  But you never, ever lay it straight onto wood without at least some sort of stabilizing and waterproofing material.  Wood moves too much and tile does not, so just a moisture barrier like RedGuard is NOT enough.  Likewise, tile and mortar are not 100% waterproof.  They're pretty good at resisting water going through them, but they're porous enough, and there's enough potential for cracks in grout, so make for some really ugly problems if you don't properly manage moisture.

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

No, think about cement itself, it's not water proof.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2017, 08:06 PM »

Not knowing much about the subject I have to ask, are the various cement boards waterproof?

They are waterproof in the sense that water will not harm/deteriorate them, but NOT waterproof in the sense that they do not provide any barrier to moisture moving through to the wood, just like any other masonry/concrete/stone/grout.

So, do cement boards need to be installed over a waterproof membrane when attached to wood?

Never ever install any tile substrate in a shower over any type of water/vapor barrier. NEVER.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2017, 08:16 PM »
I don't use cementitous backer, I'm to old to be lugging that heavy stuff around. My go to is Schluter Kerdi board or Kerdi on walls. Floors get Ditra or Dirta Heat.

Tom
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:10 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3138
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2017, 09:00 PM »
The Schluter system seems really well thought out.
I think I used some kind of Schluter mat on my tile floor in 1992 but haven't given tiling much attention since then.

How do you seal the edges of the waterproof wall membrane?
What are those square patches on the wall.

I hope you post more pictures of the process so I can learn something. Had some fun loopking at images of "dirt heat"  ;)

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 408
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2017, 09:01 PM »
Tom

The text below is from the Daltile website. It seems to contradict your advice or am I misunderstanding something.


Check to make sure that the cement backer board is sound after removing the old tile. If not, you'll need to remove the old and install a new backer board.

Apply a waterproof membrane to the backer board to ensure that water can’t seep through and cause damage.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Tom

The text below is from the Daltile website. It seems to contradict your advice or am I misunderstanding something.


Check to make sure that the cement backer board is sound after removing the old tile. If not, you'll need to remove the old and install a new backer board.

Apply a waterproof membrane to the backer board to ensure that water can’t seep through and cause damage.

We'll skip the first line.

If you're referring to my statement about not installing backer over any water/vapor barrier their second statement agrees with mine. You install the waterproofing on the tile side of the board, not behind it.

Tom


Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2017, 09:14 PM »
The Schluter system seems really well thought out.
I think I used some kind of Schluter mat on my tile floor in 1992 but haven't given tiling much attention since then.

How do you seal the edges of the waterproof wall membrane?
What are those square patches on the wall.

I hope you post more pictures of the process so I can learn something. Had some fun loopking at images of "dirt heat"  ;)

The mat you used in '92 was the original Ditra.

Kerdi band and Kerdi corners.

Kerdi band cut to 5x5 squares, they cover the washer/screws.

I'm water proofing the shower that started this thread tomorrow in preparation of the water test. I'll take more pictures of the process as it proceeds.

Tom

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 408
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2017, 09:42 PM »
"Never ever install any tile substrate in a shower over any type of water/vapor barrier. NEVER."

Ah. Tile substrate is where I misunderstood. Thanks.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2017, 09:57 PM »
"Never ever install any tile substrate in a shower over any type of water/vapor barrier. NEVER."

Ah. Tile substrate is where I misunderstood. Thanks.

I choose the word "substrate" due to all the choices.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2017, 10:26 PM »
I don't use cementitous backer, I'm to old to be lugging that heavy stuff around. My go to is Schluter Kerdi board or Kerdi on walls. Floors get Ditra or Dirta Heat.

Well I’m also well into a bath remodel and even though I’m probably older than Tom [poke] I am still willing to lug that cementious based product around. It’s just my knee jerk reaction to using a belt and suspenders approach. It’s also the difference between doing this stuff for a living and doing this stuff for fun. Bottom line is, I’m getting too old too fast to not ensure that every project I tackle will be the last time I need to touch it.

I concur with everything thing else Tom has stated and will be using Kerdi membrane over the cement board and using Ditra Heat on the floor. It appears to be a well thought out system.

There will also be no shower curb. Just another obstacle you have to hurdle.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2017, 10:33 PM »
I don't use cementitous backer, I'm to old to be lugging that heavy stuff around. My go to is Schluter Kerdi board or Kerdi on walls. Floors get Ditra or Dirta Heat.

Well I’m also well into a bath remodel and even though I’m probably older than Tom [poke] I am still willing to lug that cementious based product around. It’s just my knee jerk reaction to using a belt and suspenders approach. It’s also the difference between doing this stuff for a living and doing this stuff for fun. Bottom line is, I’m getting too old too fast to not ensure that every project I tackle will be the last time I need to touch it.

I concur with everything thing else Tom has stated and will be using Kerdi membrane over the cement board and using Ditra Heat on the floor. It appears to be a well thought out system.

There will also be no shower curb. Just another obstacle you have to hurdle.

Why do you feel cement board is better?

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

How are you doing the shower floor? Who's drain?

Don't skip the flood test.

Tom


Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1166
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2017, 10:39 PM »

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

Tom

As in 100 sq.ft of floor = 90 lineal foot of cabling?
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2017, 10:51 PM »

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

Tom

As in 100 sq.ft of floor = 90 lineal foot of cabling?

90 square feet of cabling.

The way the cable is figured;

total room square feet--

deduct the tub area, vanity area, toilet foot print, vertical buffer area

Example;

100 sq ft room

tub 15 sq ft

vanity 15 sq ft

toilet 2 sq ft

3" wall buffer--(we'll use 3" x 20 feet of verticals) 5 sq ft.

100-37= 63 sq ft of area to be heated.

Order a cable that will cover 55-60 sq ft.

Schluter has a calculator on-line for this.

Tom


Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1166
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2017, 11:05 PM »
Gotcha, Thanks.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2017, 12:21 AM »

Why do you feel cement board is better?

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

How are you doing the shower floor? Who's drain?

Don't skip the flood test.


Hey Tom, I don't necessarily think cement board is better, rather I'm almost 70 years old and if this thing fails in 10 or 20 years I won't be a happy camper. At this rate, I'd rather touch each of these jobs only once and then go on to the next. If it costs a few hundred $$ more...so be it. Belt and suspenders. [big grin]

I've already laid out the heat cable on a CAD program...it's rather interesting because you have limited lengths of heat cable available and it cannot be cut to a different length. It helps to have a creative mind...

I've already installed a wall mounted vanity and a wall mounted Kohler toilet. Working around the 3 1/2" roof vent was a real PITA but well worth the effort.  This makes it so easy to swab the floor, I should have done this 15 years ago. No more on your hands & knees stuff. Besides, with the in-floor heat the cats will love ❤️ it.

I'm cutting into the floor joists to get the needed pan depth. Then I'll be sistering in additional 2x10 members to support the structure properly.

The drain will be the Schluter 4" square stainless version. I wanted to use their trench drain but the dimensions (drain pitch) just didn't work out.

Thanks for the reminder on the flood test. [thumbs up]  After I redid the shower plumbing, I decided not to install the cement board and just observe the new plumbing for a couple of days. I'm so glad I did, there weren't any leaks but its nice to know that...rather than sealing up the wall and then find water dripping from some where it's not supposed to.

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2017, 12:46 AM »

Why do you feel cement board is better?

Order the heat cable about 10% less than the heated square footage (don't go more than 10% less).

How are you doing the shower floor? Who's drain?

Don't skip the flood test.


Hey Tom, I don't necessarily think cement board is better, rather I'm almost 70 years old and if this thing fails in 10 or 20 years I won't be a happy camper. At this rate, I'd rather touch each of these jobs only once and then go on to the next. If it costs a few hundred $$ more...so be it. Belt and suspenders. [big grin]

I've already laid out the heat cable on a CAD program...it's rather interesting because you have limited lengths of heat cable available and it cannot be cut to a different length. It helps to have a creative mind...

I've already installed a wall mounted vanity and a wall mounted Kohler toilet. Working around the 3 1/2" roof vent was a real PITA but well worth the effort.  This makes it so easy to swab the floor, I should have done this 15 years ago. No more on your hands & knees stuff. Besides, with the in-floor heat the cats will love ❤️ it.

I'm cutting into the floor joists to get the needed pan depth. Then I'll be sistering in additional 2x10 members to support the structure properly.

The drain will be the Schluter 4" square stainless version. I wanted to use their trench drain but the dimensions (drain pitch) just didn't work out.

Thanks for the reminder on the flood test. [thumbs up]  After I redid the shower plumbing, I decided not to install the cement board and just observe the new plumbing for a couple of days. I'm so glad I did, there weren't any leaks but its nice to know that...rather than sealing up the wall and then find water dripping from some where it's not supposed to.

If your looking at longevity Kerdi board or Wedi will out last fiber cement. They are lighter, easier to cut and install. I use 2" Kerdi board for structural members in showers. Schluter Kerdi over regular drywall is warrantied by Schluter for 25 years.

After a few cable installs it's easy to figure how to weave it. Make sure you maintain the 3 lug spacing. Easiest way to install it in the mat is a urethane grout float. Align the cable, run the float over it, presses it in place. Do all 3 tests the three required times. I take a picture of the meter with the cable tag in frame while doing each test. I keep the photo in a file, send copies to the owners. You'll need the KW off the tag to program the t-stat. Register the warranty online.

When cutting the joists, don't forget the 3/4" subfloor in the depth calculation.

Surprised you could not get an L or LS pan to work. Picture is an LS pan, like yours the joists were trimmed, then sistered as needed.

Tom

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3486
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2017, 10:33 AM »
The shower has about 12 uses on it since it was remodeled. They quit using it 3 months ago, there was still 16" of water in the wall.

Jeesh! Surprising how often stuff like this happens. 
These are difficult situations.
Clients are usually completely emotionally shot by the time they call you.
Thanks for posting very interesting.
Tim

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2017, 08:34 PM »
The Schluter system seems really well thought out.
I think I used some kind of Schluter mat on my tile floor in 1992 but haven't given tiling much attention since then.

How do you seal the edges of the waterproof wall membrane?
What are those square patches on the wall.

I hope you post more pictures of the process so I can learn something. Had some fun loopking at images of "dirt heat"  ;)

I got the shower waterproofed today.

Kerdi board installed, washers and screws will be covered. 270692-0

Three band sizes I use, 5, 7, 10 inch.270694-1

Two seals for the system. The shower arm seal will not be used on this one. The shower arm comes out of the ceiling. 270696-2270698-3

Band and covers cut.270700-4

Formed corners, inside and outside. 270704-5

Removing old drain hub. Socket Savers, great tools. 270706-6

Dry fit, the pipe will get vacuumed out. There are pipe shreds in the trap weir.270708-7

Base dry fit.270710-8

Bench stanchions. 270702-9

Corners and screws covered. 270712-10

Base and drain set. 270714-11

Bench finished and sealed.270716-12

Curb set, Kerdi over base. I cut the Kerdi 4" over sized folded and mortared the over cut to wall, saves band. Used preformed corners. 270718-13

Tom








Offline Billedis

  • Posts: 586
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2017, 09:09 PM »
@tjbnwl Tom, you should re-title this feed, as to how a real pro prepares a shower for tile.  Bill

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2017, 08:30 PM »
Water test has commenced.

Tom

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2017, 08:53 PM »
Tom, how do you properly water test a curbless shower?  Do you build a temporary curb with Kerdi folded up?  (Is that what I'm looking at on the bottom of the pic?)
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2017, 09:02 PM »
Tom, how do you properly water test a curbless shower?  Do you build a temporary curb with Kerdi folded up?  (Is that what I'm looking at on the bottom of the pic?)

A barrier free shower should have a pitch towards the drain. The slope allows you to fill the pan area. Pictured is a barrier free pan. It was flood tested once all the waterproofing was completed.

The subject shower is not barrier free, that is the curb in the bottom left of the picture.

Tom

Offline wkearney99

  • Posts: 65
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2017, 12:04 AM »
For future plans, consider studding out the wall and making a full-width shelf instead of a boxed niche.  We did that in our master bath and it's worked out fantastically.  We had enough room to allow for studding out the wall with another 2x4.  This to allow having a 60" wide niche running the whole width of the shower.  The ledge is a piece of Silestone (same as the counter tops), cut with a slight curve from the sides, bowing out to about 1/2" at the center.  This to allow for greater depth at the center without having the ends look oddly cut into the side tiles.  There's a slight tilt to allow water to slough off, but not enough to cause things to fall/roll.

Now with a whole width shelf we don't have any problems with his & hers niches or lack of space. 

All of our new baths were done with Kerdi.  Including one linear drain.  Totally worth it.  I'd done a remodel of a bath some years before with cement board and Redguard (the old stuff that dried to 'axe murder crime scene red').  And while it withstood the test of time, it was nowhere near as simple and quick to do as Kerdi.  Vote me in the 'never lug cement board again' crowd.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2017, 12:44 AM »
Tom, how do you properly water test a curbless shower?  Do you build a temporary curb with Kerdi folded up?  (Is that what I'm looking at on the bottom of the pic?)

A barrier free shower should have a pitch towards the drain. The slope allows you to fill the pan area. Pictured is a barrier free pan. It was flood tested once all the waterproofing was completed.

The subject shower is not barrier free, that is the curb in the bottom left of the picture.

Tom

Yeah I guess the thing I've never understood about flood testing barrier-free showers is that you're [technically] supposed to test to a certain height above the drain...2"?  But you can't necessarily reach that height over the drain in a barrier-free depending on where the drain is located and if you're using closer to the minimum pitch.  It's probably not a big deal if you're not having the inspector standing right there when you flood test but I was just wondering what the protocol is if you can't achieve 2" with the drain config and pitch you've chosen.  It'll be an issue for me in a few months when I get to my first barrier-free.

For the record I wouldn't bother using anything other than Schluter products either, though I have yet to use Kerdi-board...have always used Kerdi over cement board. 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2393
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2017, 12:51 AM »
Schluter is the way to go - love the stuff and easy to apply and works as advertised. Expensive, but the cost of water damage is worse.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2017, 12:54 AM »
For future plans, consider studding out the wall and making a full-width shelf instead of a boxed niche.  We did that in our master bath and it's worked out fantastically.  We had enough room to allow for studding out the wall with another 2x4.  This to allow having a 60" wide niche running the whole width of the shower.  The ledge is a piece of Silestone (same as the counter tops), cut with a slight curve from the sides, bowing out to about 1/2" at the center.  This to allow for greater depth at the center without having the ends look oddly cut into the side tiles.  There's a slight tilt to allow water to slough off, but not enough to cause things to fall/roll.

I like that design idea.  Might have to present that to the boss for upcoming shower.  I'm curious about the caulking detail on that - how did you end up caulking it to prevent water build up between shelf and Kerdi?
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2017, 02:01 AM »
For future plans, consider studding out the wall and making a full-width shelf instead of a boxed niche.  We did that in our master bath and it's worked out fantastically.

Saw this at the local Kohler/Robern store...pretty dramatic, it definitely made an impact on me. The elegant linear lines...This is what I was going to incorporate into our present bath remodel until I found a cold air return in the way.  [eek]

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2017, 02:06 AM »
Schluter is the way to go - love the stuff and easy to apply and works as advertised. Expensive, but the cost of water damage is worse.

The cost of rework is even more mind numbing. Touch it once and then proceed to the next project.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2017, 08:46 AM »
Tom, how do you properly water test a curbless shower?  Do you build a temporary curb with Kerdi folded up?  (Is that what I'm looking at on the bottom of the pic?)

A barrier free shower should have a pitch towards the drain. The slope allows you to fill the pan area. Pictured is a barrier free pan. It was flood tested once all the waterproofing was completed.

The subject shower is not barrier free, that is the curb in the bottom left of the picture.

Tom

Yeah I guess the thing I've never understood about flood testing barrier-free showers is that you're [technically] supposed to test to a certain height above the drain...2"?  But you can't necessarily reach that height over the drain in a barrier-free depending on where the drain is located and if you're using closer to the minimum pitch.  It's probably not a big deal if you're not having the inspector standing right there when you flood test but I was just wondering what the protocol is if you can't achieve 2" with the drain config and pitch you've chosen.  It'll be an issue for me in a few months when I get to my first barrier-free.

For the record I wouldn't bother using anything other than Schluter products either, though I have yet to use Kerdi-board...have always used Kerdi over cement board.

The code required 2" applies to curbed showers only. Seeing as there is no curb, they can't require the 2". This may change at some time, but so far it applies only to the curbed showers. If I had to flood a barrier free to 2" I would run the band up above the floor line 2", hot glue some backer to the floor, flood the pan.

I did have one barrier free we did as a wet room. Blocked the door and flooded the entire room to 3".

Kerdi board is lighter to carry, cut and install. I have the CMT fiber cement blade for the TS-55, still easier to cut Kerdi board. Material cost is higher, I find it is cheeper in the long run with the labor savings.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2017, 08:48 AM »
For future plans, consider studding out the wall and making a full-width shelf instead of a boxed niche.  We did that in our master bath and it's worked out fantastically.  We had enough room to allow for studding out the wall with another 2x4.  This to allow having a 60" wide niche running the whole width of the shower.  The ledge is a piece of Silestone (same as the counter tops), cut with a slight curve from the sides, bowing out to about 1/2" at the center.  This to allow for greater depth at the center without having the ends look oddly cut into the side tiles.  There's a slight tilt to allow water to slough off, but not enough to cause things to fall/roll.

Now with a whole width shelf we don't have any problems with his & hers niches or lack of space. 

All of our new baths were done with Kerdi.  Including one linear drain.  Totally worth it.  I'd done a remodel of a bath some years before with cement board and Redguard (the old stuff that dried to 'axe murder crime scene red').  And while it withstood the test of time, it was nowhere near as simple and quick to do as Kerdi.  Vote me in the 'never lug cement board again' crowd.

I've done full length niches. Final design is the customer decision. I've seen some baths where a 5" niche would get overloaded. [eek]

Tom

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2017, 09:11 AM »
Tom, how do you properly water test a curbless shower?  Do you build a temporary curb with Kerdi folded up?  (Is that what I'm looking at on the bottom of the pic?)

A barrier free shower should have a pitch towards the drain. The slope allows you to fill the pan area. Pictured is a barrier free pan. It was flood tested once all the waterproofing was completed.

The subject shower is not barrier free, that is the curb in the bottom left of the picture.

Tom

Yeah I guess the thing I've never understood about flood testing barrier-free showers is that you're [technically] supposed to test to a certain height above the drain...2"?  But you can't necessarily reach that height over the drain in a barrier-free depending on where the drain is located and if you're using closer to the minimum pitch.  It's probably not a big deal if you're not having the inspector standing right there when you flood test but I was just wondering what the protocol is if you can't achieve 2" with the drain config and pitch you've chosen.  It'll be an issue for me in a few months when I get to my first barrier-free.

For the record I wouldn't bother using anything other than Schluter products either, though I have yet to use Kerdi-board...have always used Kerdi over cement board.

The code required 2" applies to curbed showers only. Seeing as there is no curb, they can't require the 2". This may change at some time, but so far it applies only to the curbed showers. If I had to flood a barrier free to 2" I would run the band up above the floor line 2", hot glue some backer to the floor, flood the pan.

I did have one barrier free we did as a wet room. Blocked the door and flooded the entire room to 3".

Kerdi board is lighter to carry, cut and install. I have the CMT fiber cement blade for the TS-55, still easier to cut Kerdi board. Material cost is higher, I find it is cheeper in the long run with the labor savings.

Tom

Good stuff, thanks Tom.  [thumbs up]
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2017, 09:28 AM »
Wow, just came across this. Great read.
Thanks Tom for sharing your knowledge!

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3138
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2017, 10:14 AM »
Ditto Alan.

Tom do you cut Kedi board with a knife or saw?

What is the goo used to seal patches in the wall?

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2017, 12:21 PM »
@tjbnwi Tom- In these showers that you show what thickness is the Kerdi Board on the walls? And you are screwing that right to the studs or is there something in between?

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2017, 01:41 PM »
What is the goo used to seal patches in the wall?

I'm not Tom, just answering your second question since I've used Kerdi a fair bit as well.  Kerdi is applied with thinset (example if you are applying the membrane to cement board).  When you overlap or use the thin bands of membrane (e.g. at the corners of the pan), also thinset.  Or, in Tom's photos, the patches of Kerdi membrane on top of the Kerdi-board to cover the screws are also applied with thinset.  This works because the membrane is kind of a fleece-like material sandwiching the impermeable core.

Schlüter also sells an [expensive] silicone caulk called Kerdi-fix for use on drain flanges, metal trim, pipe and valve seals, etc.
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2017, 06:18 PM »
The typical Kerdi Board install is 1/2" thick on the walls.  It is screwed directly to the studs. I typically cut it with the TS55, low speed and a 28t blade.  Cuts easy enough with a utility knife and a straight edge too.

Live4 has it right about the patches.  They are Strips of Kerdiband applied with unmodified thinset.

The KerdiFix caulking IS NOT silicone and it's advised to not use silicone in the assembly.  Or it used to be anyway.  I don't know what's in that kerdifix , but it's expensive , smells awful, and sticks to everything like nobody's business. It's now available in smaller tubes so there's less waste if you don't use a full tube.  It has a short shelf life once opened.   I know guys found an alternative from Sika that was a spitting image to the Kerdi product , but I'm pretty sure it's been discontinued.


Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 646
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2017, 06:28 PM »
The KerdiFix caulking IS NOT silicone and it's advised to not use silicone in the assembly.  Or it used to be anyway.  I don't know what's in that kerdifix , but it's expensive , smells awful, and sticks to everything like nobody's business. It's now available in smaller tubes so there's less waste if you don't use a full tube.  It has a short shelf life once opened.   I know guys found an alternative from Sika that was a spitting image to the Kerdi product , but I'm pretty sure it's been discontinued.

Sorry, technically it's a proprietary "silane-based polymer," didn't mean to imply it's the same as any random silicone caulk. 
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2017, 08:02 PM »
Ditto Alan.

Tom do you cut Kedi board with a knife or saw?

What is the goo used to seal patches in the wall?

Depends, normally the TS-55 with a 48 tooth blade.

The goo is tile mortar, Schluter All-Set to be exact. I'm not calling it thin set because Schluter claims you can set LF and LFH tile with it. I'll find out how true this is soon.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2017, 08:03 PM »
@tjbnwi Tom- In these showers that you show what thickness is the Kerdi Board on the walls? And you are screwing that right to the studs or is there something in between?

1/2"

Directly to the studs.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2017, 08:05 PM »
The typical Kerdi Board install is 1/2" thick on the walls.  It is screwed directly to the studs. I typically cut it with the TS55, low speed and a 28t blade.  Cuts easy enough with a utility knife and a straight edge too.

Live4 has it right about the patches.  They are Strips of Kerdiband applied with unmodified thinset.

The KerdiFix caulking IS NOT silicone and it's advised to not use silicone in the assembly.  Or it used to be anyway.  I don't know what's in that kerdifix , but it's expensive , smells awful, and sticks to everything like nobody's business. It's now available in smaller tubes so there's less waste if you don't use a full tube.  It has a short shelf life once opened.   I know guys found an alternative from Sika that was a spitting image to the Kerdi product , but I'm pretty sure it's been discontinued.

Schluter All-Set is a specially formulated modified mortar. It's been on the market about 6 months.

Tom

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2017, 08:30 PM »


1/2"

Directly to the studs.

Tom
[/quote]

I'm sure it is since that's what is spec but I would not think a 1/2 foam panel would be rigid enough for tile on that wall. Did you ever have that concern?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:33 PM by Alan G »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2017, 08:34 PM »


1/2"

Directly to the studs.

Tom
[/quote]

I'm sure it is since that's what is spec but is a 1/2 foam panel rigid on that wall?
With large format tiles I could see it but with a mosaic I would worry the wall would be spongy.
[/quote]

It's a very dense compacted foam. Not that flexible.

I've never done a full wall or large area of mosaics over it.

Tom

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3582
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2017, 08:36 PM »
This has been a very interesting discussion.  Thanks for the education Tom.  Altho it has been well over 30 years since I had anything to do with the trowel trades, it is amazing to me the improvements that have been in materials. if i were to start in again, it would take a lot of educatin' just to catch up. My grandson is just starting in college with his major in construction management. Every time I see him (weekends) I have lots of questions to ask.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2017, 08:57 PM »
Quote
Schluter All-Set is a specially formulated modified mortar. It's been on the market about 6 months.

Oh great.  [eek]

Has Schluter changed their tact and moved away from unmodified ?  Or have they just bowed to pressure from the large format manuf. , most of which require modified setting material for install?

Is the  All-Set for use between the Kerdi layers too - or just for setting the tile onto the membranes and mats ?

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2017, 09:13 PM »
Quote
Schluter All-Set is a specially formulated modified mortar. It's been on the market about 6 months.

Oh great.  [eek]

Has Schluter changed their tact and moved away from unmodified ?  Or have they just bowed to pressure from the large format manuf. , most of which require modified setting material for install?

Is the  All-Set for use between the Kerdi layers too - or just for setting the tile onto the membranes and mats ?

They have not changed their stance on the modified/un-modified mortars.

All Set is the only modified they approve for their system. The primary difference between this and other modifies is they got it to cure in 12-16 hours between the two low vapor permeance surfaces.

I aware of two years of All Set's development. My guess is it took them at least four years.

When I use modified (I'm a big fan of Mapie) with Schluter products I plan at least 48 hours from set to grout. I prefer 72 hours.

As the name implies, All Set can be used to set everything.

Tom

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:24 PM by tjbnwi »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2017, 02:37 AM »
I'm sure it is since that's what is spec but I would not think a 1/2 foam panel would be rigid enough for tile on that wall. Did you ever have that concern?


That’s one of the issues that I had, that made me decide to continue to use cementious based product. If I’m hanging 10mm thick, 24” x 12” porcelain tiles off a 1/2” thick foam board...it may work for a while, it may even work forever, however we’ll not not know this until 20-30 years from now...but after 20 years of gravity working its wonders..I want to make sure the tile substrate doesn’t feel the need to bow or sag on my watch. If I were 10-15 years younger I may have rolled the dice and taken the chance, however at my age I just don’t feel the need to gamble on future results. Especially as I will be the person that will have to rectify the issue.

This issue rather reminds me of the problems with the exterior stucco problems that were rampant during the 90’s to early 2000’s. The industry had literally thousands of testimonials that their application methods were sound, yet the devastation was consistent and on-going. If I remember correctly, a class action suit was eventually brought forth and honored.  I just don’t want to be on the end of a potentially stinky situation...I just want to update the bathroom and go forward.

The statement “an ounce of protection is worth a pound of cure” still holds true.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2017, 09:29 PM »
I'm sure it is since that's what is spec but I would not think a 1/2 foam panel would be rigid enough for tile on that wall. Did you ever have that concern?


That’s one of the issues that I had, that made me decide to continue to use cementious based product. If I’m hanging 10mm thick, 24” x 12” porcelain tiles off a 1/2” thick foam board...it may work for a while, it may even work forever, however we’ll not not know this until 20-30 years from now...but after 20 years of gravity working its wonders..I want to make sure the tile substrate doesn’t feel the need to bow or sag on my watch. If I were 10-15 years younger I may have rolled the dice and taken the chance, however at my age I just don’t feel the need to gamble on future results. Especially as I will be the person that will have to rectify the issue.

This issue rather reminds me of the problems with the exterior stucco problems that were rampant during the 90’s to early 2000’s. The industry had literally thousands of testimonials that their application methods were sound, yet the devastation was consistent and on-going. If I remember correctly, a class action suit was eventually brought forth and honored.  I just don’t want to be on the end of a potentially stinky situation...I just want to update the bathroom and go forward.

The statement “an ounce of protection is worth a pound of cure” still holds true.

The exterior stucco (Dryvit) issues were primarily install issues. Properly installed the Dryvit system works very well.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2017, 09:31 PM »
Tile has arrived. Install has commenced. Templates for the granite company have been made.

Tom

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2017, 05:19 PM »
@tjbnwi I tried to look at the pics but could not zoom in enough to see....How did you do the ledges in the niche? Kerdi board again with some framing for support?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2017, 05:30 PM »
Hey Tom,
Are those 36” tiles and what leveling system are you using?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2017, 07:40 PM »
@tjbnwi I tried to look at the pics but could not zoom in enough to see....How did you do the ledges in the niche? Kerdi board again with some framing for support?

@Alan G

Hopefully these two will expand. I had my export setting at medium instead of large.

The niches are in a plumbing wall, it is a double 2x4 deep wall (7.5" without faces). A vent runs through the channel created by the lower of the dividers.

I used Kerdi Fix to adhere Kerdi backers to the edges of the studs (3.5" back from the face of the show wall). Kerdi board was then glued to the backers at full stud bay width and taller than what was needed for the niche height Strips of Kerdi board were glued to the edges of the studs, Kerdi board supports were glued on to the stud Kerdi board and back Kerdi board, tops and bottoms cut to fit, Kerdi Fixed to the supports, face sheet supports front edge.

There is a slight drainage pitch on the bottom pieces.

The white goo in the pictures is Kerdi Fix, do not get it where you don't want it, it does not come off without a lot of work and chemicals...

If this was not a plumbing wall, I cut the back and glue it right to the back side of the drywall on the opposite side of the work being done.

I built the boxes faster than I typed this.....

I finished the tile in the niche today, there are 48 tile pieces in it...not counting the glass mosaic that covers the channel faces...

Tom
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 07:44 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2017, 07:43 PM »
Hey Tom,
Are those 36” tiles and what leveling system are you using?

12x24.

RLS.

http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Raimondi-RLS-System-Starter-Kit

Tom

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 903
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2017, 11:20 PM »
I've gotta say that the Hardi / hydro ban system still looks a lot more simple. There's something about sealant that I've been taught not to trust for a lifetime, I guess the same logic could be used to question the lifespan of hydroban.

I am intrigued by the pre-sloped pans though! 

helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2017, 06:32 PM »
A few tile left to set after the granite goes in on Monday.

Tom

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3436
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2017, 07:41 PM »
That's spectacular, Tom.  Can't wait to see the final photos.  Great job!!!   [smile]
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2017, 08:46 PM »
Looks great! Really like the niches!

Does the bench have conventional framing under the kerdi board or did you just used a thicker board?

Within the next year I will be doing some reno on our house. I have never used the kerdi system. Looking forward to giving it a try. I especially like the presloped pans. Doing a dry pack mortar bed with the proper slope and liners was keeping me up at night!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:49 PM by Alan G »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2017, 09:04 PM »
Looks great! Really like the niches!

Does the bench have conventional framing under the kerdi board or did you just used a thicker board?

Within the next year I will be doing some reno on our house. I have never used the kerdi system. Looking forward to giving it a try. I especially like the presloped pans. Doing a dry pack mortar bed with the proper slope and liners was keeping me up at night!

The bench is 2" Kerdi board, made up of a front panel which is 1/4" shorter than the rear panel, capped with a 3rd 2" panel.

The piece of granite is 11-3/4" deep.

The stem wall I could have built out of Kerdi board also (2", 2" 1.5"). Not sure why I didn't.

Make sure the floor is level for the base. Use a 1/4" square notch trowel for the mortar bed to set it in.

Do you access to the drain?

Tom

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Okay great. Thanks for the info.

Yes. I will have access to the drain. How is the install and fitup of the kerdi drain?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #104 on: November 17, 2017, 09:41 PM »
Okay great. Thanks for the info.

Yes. I will have access to the drain. How is the install and fitup of the kerdi drain?

With access to the plumbing it's easy.

On this one I did not have access to the plumbing.

First photo are the drain body parts. It comes with the seals for the mixing valve and corners.

After I removed the old drain I dry fit the new body. The stub was to short.

Using a socket saver, I removed the pipe all the way into the trap hub.

Drain body dry fit to new pipe.

Body mortared in place.

Pan covered with Kerdi. Do not kneel on the foam pan without covering it with cardboard. Use the box, I double layer. I also cut the Kerdi 4" larger all directions, fold up the sides 2", saves on banding and build up.

When you get around to yours, post here, there are a lot of little tips that will help you through the install.

Tom

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2017, 09:51 PM »
Hey Tom, I noticed the niches do not incorporate Schluter corners and neither does the shower. Was this based on cost or based upon preference?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2017, 10:47 PM »
Hey Tom, I noticed the niches do not incorporate Schluter corners and neither does the shower. Was this based on cost or based upon preference?

If you look at the last picture in the previous post, expand on the corner, you'll see the pre-formed corners. No band because I hem the Kerdi 2" with a j-roller.

The niches I chose to go with Kerdi Fix. Schluter specs it to seal Kerdi board assemblies. Honestly my preference are the pre-formed niches, getting them to work with vent pipe would have been more work.

https://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Shower-System/Waterproofing/Schluter®-KERDI-FIX/p/KERDI_FIX

I looked at the last picture again, you may be asking about the inside corners on the curb. Below is a picture showing the inside corners installed.

Tom
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 10:50 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2017, 10:54 PM »
Something others may run into and how I solve it.

The face of the niches were over 12" edge to edge. I bonded the glass to Kerdi, let it set, cut and installed.

Tom

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3138
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2017, 12:03 AM »
Using the pre-sloped pan, what is the largest tile it will support?
May be showing my ignorance again but it seems to smaller tile should be used?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2017, 12:34 AM »
Using the pre-sloped pan, what is the largest tile it will support?
May be showing my ignorance again but it seems to smaller tile should be used?

If you don't want to do a lot of cutting and fitting, 2" x2" is about the limit to get the tile to follow the pitches well.

The pictured base is pre-sloped with 8x8's. Everything was laid out and cut to get the water to the drain.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2017, 12:38 AM »
Using the pre-sloped pan, what is the largest tile it will support?
May be showing my ignorance again but it seems to smaller tile should be used?

If you don't want to do a lot of cutting and fitting, 2" x2" is about the limit to get the tile to follow the pitches well.

The pictured base is pre-sloped with 8x8's. Everything was laid out and cut to get the water to the drain.

Tom

If you want to do large format tile a single slope with a lineal drain is the answer.

Tom

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2017, 09:27 AM »

When you get around to yours, post here, there are a lot of little tips that will help you through the install.

Tom

I really appreciate that. Thank You!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3991
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2017, 11:39 AM »
Hey Tom, I noticed the niches do not incorporate Schluter corners and neither does the shower. Was this based on cost or based upon preference?

Actually Tom I was referring to the Schluter decorative edging. I'm at the point where I can't decide if I should run it around the floor and in the corners of the shower or not. Each 8ft strip is about $30-$35, but each actual corner piece that connects the strips is $25-$35. The cost starts adding up in a hurry.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2017, 12:28 PM »
I've never done one where the customer wanted the trim pieces. I have used the in specific locations. I'd love to use them, I hate caulking the corners.

Niches with Jolly trim.

Tom

Offline BJM9818

  • Posts: 177
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2017, 11:29 PM »
Wedi makes a similar caulk to Kerri fix. It’s about 1/2 the price. Only issue is it’s grey.

I just did a small 1/2 bath with All set. Not a big fan vs Ardex but it’s supposed to work on all aspects of a tile job.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2017, 11:36 PM »
Wedi makes a similar caulk to Kerri fix. It’s about 1/2 the price. Only issue is it’s grey.

I just did a small 1/2 bath with All set. Not a big fan vs Ardex but it’s supposed to work on all aspects of a tile job.

I've used the Wedi sealant, it's about $6.00 less per cartridge than Kerdi Fix. Problem is I'd have to go to 2 different suppliers. Most jobs I use 2 tubes or less.

I found the All Set did not hold on the trowel as well as the Mapie I normally use. Other than that it worked well.

I've heard good things about Ardex, unfortunately no suppler local to me.

Tom

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #116 on: November 20, 2017, 07:41 AM »
Something others may run into and how I solve it.

The face of the niches were over 12" edge to edge. I bonded the glass to Kerdi, let it set, cut and installed.

Tom

Is that so it was a rigid piece and easier to install in a tight space?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #117 on: November 20, 2017, 08:20 AM »
Something others may run into and how I solve it.

The face of the niches were over 12" edge to edge. I bonded the glass to Kerdi, let it set, cut and installed.

Tom

Is that so it was a rigid piece and easier to install in a tight space?

Makes the pieces longer, easier to cut than small pieces.

Tom

Offline Alan G

  • Posts: 24
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #118 on: November 20, 2017, 08:36 AM »
Got it. Great idea!

Offline Jungle8888

  • Posts: 13
Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #119 on: February 15, 2018, 04:29 PM »
Very nice Tom, I'm redoing my master bathroom, everything with Schluter and 24x24 tiles, except for the bath floor, which I think is 2x2

Cheers,
Paul

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5437
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Re: How not to tile a shower...
« Reply #120 on: February 15, 2018, 09:16 PM »
@Jungle8888 Looks good.

Tom

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.