Author Topic: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help  (Read 7632 times)

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Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« on: April 26, 2016, 10:54 AM »
My wife and I bought a "Spec House" about 6 years ago.  Typically in spec houses there are shortcuts taken to keep the cost down as much as possible but overall we have been very happy with the quality of the construction.  However, we have started to run into a problem with the kitchen cabinets.  The cabinets have knotty alder doors with veneered boxes. 

The problem I am having is that I am starting to see the veneer on end cabinets delaminating from the boxes.  I've attached a close up photo to show the issue.  I figure that I have one shot to fix this so I wanted to ask the pros how they would address the issue before I force some glue in, clamp it, not have it hold, and have covered the interior surfaces with dried glue making another try at fixing it impossible.

Any help that can be offered would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 11:40 AM »
The veneer edging was most likely attached with a heat sensitive glue. You may be able to reactivated the bond by heating the edging with a normal electric iron. Do some tests in a preferable inconspicuous location as to how much heat you can apply, the best setting on the iron etc. You don't need a lot of heat so start fairly cool and work your way up in temperature until bonding occurs before you damage the surface. Any glue that oozes out will scrape off easily once it cools.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 471
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 12:18 PM »
You could also augment that process by squirting small amounts of glue in the cavities, eg with a syringe. Using some butchers paper as a cushion between the iron and the veneer helps.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 12:37 PM »
Thanks @Bert Vanderveen and @Bohdan

I'm not sure if it matters but this isn't the veneer edging but the veneer on the flat face of an end cabinet.  I've attached a second photo showing the same cabinet I took the previous close up picture of.  If you look closely you can see the spot where, on the side of the cabinet, the veneer is delaminating from the box.  It is the same spot I took the previous close up picture. 

If this really is a situation where heat activated glue is giving way, can you recommend a brand of heat activated glue that I could squirt in to supplement the glue that is there?  Please note I am in the US.  I saw that you are in Australia and the Netherlands.

Thanks again for your help

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 12:42 PM »
If it were me I'd use some Titebond Cold Press Veneer glue, put some in the gap and clamp the gap closed. I'd also put something between the clamp and the veneer to stop them bonding together if there's any squeeze out, a bit of polished perspex would be ideal.

http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=fdb9c5cb-15b3-49b3-b709-5794cc3ae102

Depending on how brittle the veneer felt and how much tension is in it I'd also consider steaming it with a steam iron to make it a little more flexible as to avoid it cracking when clamped.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 12:45 PM by bobfog »

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 01:01 PM »
Thanks @bobfog

I'm not sure if this makes a difference.  I've been in touch with the people who originally made the kitchen cabinets.  They have told me that they veneers were originally attached to the boxes using "spray contact glue".  Does that change which glue you would recommend using to try and reattach the veneer?  The veneers are still quite flexible so there won't be an issue clamping them back into place.  Given the replies I think it is really an issue of choosing the right glue given what was used or can heat be used to reactivate the contact cement?

Thanks again for everyone's help

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5769
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2016, 05:53 PM »
CA.

Tom

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2016, 06:13 PM »
Thanks @tjbnwi

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5769
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2016, 06:18 PM »
Thanks @tjbnwi

You're welcome, just don't get your fingers stuck to the veneer.

Tom

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2016, 07:15 PM »
If the original glue was spray contact it may be releasing because there was not enough glue sprayed in that spot or because there was not enough pressure applied there. As you can't tell which I would go with the CA suggestion.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2016, 08:17 PM »
Thanks again @Bohdan

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 723
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 12:41 AM »
If the original glue was spray contact it may be releasing because there was not enough glue sprayed in that spot or because there was not enough pressure applied there. As you can't tell which I would go with the CA suggestion.

The cause could also be moisture. Looks like it is over a stove? Make sure to use your hood fan when cooking.


Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2016, 12:59 AM »
If the original glue was spray contact it may be releasing because there was not enough glue sprayed in that spot or because there was not enough pressure applied there. As you can't tell which I would go with the CA suggestion.


The cause could also be moisture. Looks like it is over a stove? Make sure to use your hood fan when cooking.

Thanks @Peter_C

However it is happening on all the end cabinets around the kitchen and has nothing to do with being close to the stove. I also live in a mountainous area that is considered high desert.  Needless to say the humidity here is very low.  I appreciate the suggestion but I don't think misture is the root of the problem.  I only wish it was something was doing and could change.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2016, 09:08 AM »
Does anyone know of a CA glue that comes in a syringe so that I can make sure I get good coverage in the back of these areas that have delaminated?  I've been doing internet searches and have found plenty of empty syringes that are designed for you to add your own glue but none that are pre-filled with CA glue.  I'm just concerned that if I add my own CA glue to a syringe I'm going to have issues with exposing the CA glue to air and causing it to solidify in the syringe before I can use it,  I have 13 delamination spots to glue in the kitchen.

Thanks again for everyone's help

Offline Lou in DE

  • Posts: 98
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2016, 10:38 AM »
I keep Super Glue in these small one-time use packages - 12/pkg - might work for you - there is also a "Gel" version that might
work better for vertical applications - good price too:

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Glue-Original-15187-12-pack/dp/B000LGPD64/ref=pd_bxgy_60_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1257570Z72QFYJ4HN2D6
In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, theory and reality are different - especially in woodworking!

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2016, 11:00 AM »
  I'm just concerned that if I add my own CA glue to a syringe I'm going to have issues with exposing the CA glue to air and causing it to solidify in the syringe before I can use it
/quote]

CA glue hardens when air is removed, you need to have air in the syringe to prevent it hardening in the syringe.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2016, 11:05 AM »
I keep Super Glue in these small one-time use packages - 12/pkg - might work for you - there is also a "Gel" version that might
work better for vertical applications - good price too:

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Glue-Original-15187-12-pack/dp/B000LGPD64/ref=pd_bxgy_60_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1257570Z72QFYJ4HN2D6

Thanks @Lou in DE

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2016, 11:07 AM »
  I'm just concerned that if I add my own CA glue to a syringe I'm going to have issues with exposing the CA glue to air and causing it to solidify in the syringe before I can use it
/quote]

CA glue hardens when air is removed, you need to have air in the syringe to prevent it hardening in the syringe.

Interesting.  I thought it was exposure to moisture that caused CA glue to harden.  For example, the residual moisture on your skin causes the CA glue to bond instantly with it. [scared]

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3534
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2016, 11:14 AM »
Does anyone know of a CA glue that comes in a syringe so that I can make sure I get good coverage in the back of these areas that have delaminated? 

 You can buy single use tubes of Crazy Glue (CA glue) which will work for this purpose. Be very careful with your application, if you have too much you will have squeeze out and it will cloud the finish and you will have to retouch the finish. You may want to try brushing a thin coat into the bubbled up area. For areas in the middle of panels you will need to make a small slice with an razor blade in the middle of the bubble along the grain. When applying the glue push down on one side to get the glue under the bubble and then the same on the other. You will need to temporarily clamp your work piece. A CA deactivator will loosen the glue but usually dissolves the finish.
I have done this many times when commercial veneers delaminate while applying stain.

I have 13 delamination spots to glue in the kitchen.

You will either need 13 single use tubes or 13 syringes. No other way around it. Once glued with CA, it doesn't come up.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3534
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2016, 11:17 AM »
I thought it was exposure to moisture that caused CA glue to harden.  For example, the residual moisture on your skin causes the CA glue to bond instantly with it. [scared]

This is correct.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2016, 01:33 PM »
Thanks @Tim Raleigh

My plan is to mask the adjacent surfaces with masking tape so if there is some squeeze out I just have to remove the tape.  I realize this may involve some work with a razor blade but I think it will be better than trying to get squeezed out glue off the finish of the adjacent surfaces.

Thanks again for your help

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2016, 01:40 PM »
Looking at the first picture,it looks to me like frameless cabinets?
If so what did they use for the carcass?
Is it melamine?
If that's what it is, I hope they scuffed the side before spraying contact cement
If not that's what you get!
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3534
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2016, 01:49 PM »
Do a test. I have not had luck with masking tape. The glue likes to creep under the edge and it makes a bigger mess. You can extend the open time of CA glue by adding deactivator or a little acetone but it does weaken the bond.

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2016, 02:07 PM »
Do a test. I have not had luck with masking tape. The glue likes to creep under the edge and it makes a bigger mess. You can extend the open time of CA glue by adding deactivator or a little acetone but it does weaken the bond.

Thanks again @Tim Raleigh

Do you recommend a thin CA glue or one of the thicker varieties?

I was going to use a medium thick that would give me a little longer working time and hopefully not creep under the tape.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3534
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2016, 02:15 PM »
I like the thinner 'cause I get less squeeze out and it gets into the tighter areas around the edge of the bubble. As soon as I see it disappear into the void, I know I have more than enough. Too little and you gotta go in there again, which is a real pain.
Try to do a couple tests if you can. You do have to work quickly.
Tim

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 02:18 PM »
Thanks again @Tim Raleigh

Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 121
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 04:27 PM »
My vote would be to just use a thin sheet of alder plywood over the whole thing toss a couple nails along the rear and front and use a strip of trim (wood) to cover the front edge of the plywood. You will need to try to match the stain that's the hardest thing. This is what I would probably due if I was selling the house.

The other option would be to use a Dutchmen or remove the whole side, but that's more involved. Most of those cabinets are thrown together with crown staples and crappy glue improperly applied,etc.
You might be chasing your tail trying to repair 13 spots with bubbley, delamed veneer.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3534
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 07:21 PM »
Agreed, but it's worth a try.
I would just make new ones.
Tim

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 09:58 PM »
Thanks for the input.  I'm certainly going to try the repair route first before I go down the path of replacing cabinets.  All the delamination spots look exactly like the one I photographed.  They are all on the front edge of an outside cabinet so should be fairly easy (given everyone's suggestions!) to fix.  Besides this one issue the rest of the cabinets are perfect so I'd really prefer not to tear the Kitchen apart to replace them.  My wife and I plan on spending many years in this house so it isn't an issue of needing to fix things for sale.

Thanks again

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 335
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2016, 09:17 AM »
I agree with those who say apply a panel if possible. I think gluing the one spot that has come loose is like darning socks, a new hole appears beside the repaired hole pretty quickly.

I think the glue is giving up and will continue to do so. Options would be 1/4" panel with pin tacks as suggested or if you can get the veneer off you could sand and apply new veneer. [crying]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2016, 10:44 AM »
Thanks @Oldwood

It may come to that down the road but l'm certainly going to try patching it first and hope for the best

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline iekoch@comcast.net

  • Posts: 10
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2016, 10:45 PM »
I have done many, many  refacing jobs. I think one of posts is correct, if the melamine panel is not scuff sanded the contact cement will not hold. This happens a lot, contact cement can fail over time.  First some issue with some of the suggestions.  CA glue and wood glue will be all or nothing.  You will not have another shot if it does not work and if you get another bubble in the middle of the panel you have no way to remove the panel.  I see a few options, easiest to hardest.  First would be to use an iron or heat gun to reactivate the glue, and then clamp it for a few hours to see if it would hold. 2nd you can brush a thin layer of some waterbased contact cement in the bubble, squeeze the bubble to get out the excess, keep the bubble open to dry out and let sit overnight and then restick, apply pressure-a j-roller works best. Waterbased contact cement is easy to work with, clean up is easy.  It will rub off of almost any finished surface.  Third use regular yellow or white glue "cold press".  We used to use contact cement to glue veneer/laminate to melamine panels, then switched to regular glue and clamped them over night and they held for years.  If you wanted to remove whole veener panel because it was loose or more bubbled and they used contact cement,  that is fairly easy as well. I have done this 100s of times.   You open the crack and start pouring in laquer thinner( we used liquid dish washing bottles) keep pouring and the the panel will come right off.  Then if after you sand scuff the panel you could cold press the panel with wood glue or use contact cement.  I would try the heat first then contact cement, because you basically will do no harm.  Cold press or CA glue will one shot.  If the panel has another bubble, not on the edge you will be screwed.   

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Veneer Delaminating -Please Help
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2016, 03:14 PM »
Thanks @iekoch@comcast.net your approach makes a lot of sense.