Author Topic: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)  (Read 11807 times)

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Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Background: 
Wife says: "buy all the tools you want, as long as you can make my house look nice"
I say: Awesome  ;D and before I know it, an order is placed for:  TS55, Kapex, Carvex, RO150, Domino (DF500) set, MFK 700, CMS-VL Router table.  I also found an MFT/3, MFS700, two festool drills at a garage sale, and the OF1400 router on Craigslist. 

With my pile of tools building, and many en route…the wife is looking to cash in  ;D

So for my first project, I plan to build a new kitchen island (I already tore out the old one, so the clock is ticking).

I am new to this world, so your experience is very appreciated.

Most of the plans/tutorials I can find for cabinet construction are not for an exposed back and side like an island.  I've pulled what I can together, and am posting my first iteration.

Ultimately, I plan to build the unit out of two cabinet boxes (a 48" cabinet and a 24" cabinet forming a "T".  Yes, i realize the inside cabinet will be tough to access, this is OK as it will be long term storage).  The idea is to seat 6 people within this limited footprint and our gas range sits in the 48" cabinet.  The granite slab will be 50"x70" with the overhang supported by 3x3 pillars with possibly some aprons for support.  This will all be painted white, so caulk will be my friend)

Here is the sketch:



View of the island from the side other side:



View from bottom (to show cabinet boxes forming a "T"):




My questions are:  what is the best way to join the back corners as they will be exposed?  I plan to build the carcasses out of 3/4" cabinet grade plywood (sides and back).  I will assemble the face frames with either pocket screws or using the domino (attaching to the carcass with the domino).  I plan to attach side and back panels from the same company who will be doing new doors for the rest of my kitchen (I will actually order extra doors to be sized accordingly, and attach to the plywood box as decorative panels.)

I am unsure how to attach the panels (I suppose I could glue, Domino, and clamp). 

Please add your feedback and help me "fill in the blanks".

Below are some options that I have thought of.  Drawings are not to scale and are from the Top Down perspective.  I don't show any stretchers, just the plywood carcass, face frame, and doors/panels for simplicity sake. Also, I am showing one box, but all exposed outside corners would be treated the same way (and I'd just attach the two cabinets together to for the "T" shape).

Option A:
Join the back and side 3/4" Ply with a dado running top to bottom along the inside back of the side panels.  Reveal would allow for panels to sit inset along the back, and to the edges along the sides.  Any area that isn't perfectly flush to be sanded, filled, and painted for a flush transition.



Option B:
Join the back and side 3/4" Ply with a 45 degree miter (cutting sheet goods with the ts55), and using the Domino, glue and clamps for a tight mitered corner.  Add panels to outside either flush to ends or sitting proud of the corners (having the outside corners step down from the panels if that makes sense…not in the picture)


Option C:
Join the back and side 3/4" Ply with a +/- 2x2 of stock that runs like a small pillar.  I'd dado in the plywood and attach using Domino, clamps and glue.  On the outside corner, it would look like a corner stile that continued on sides and back.  The plywood would sit inside the dado.  I could then attach side panels to be flush almost inset from the face frame reveal and 2x2's (exact size tbd), or panels could sit proud of the 2x2 and face frame.

Honorable mentions for achieving a flush outside corner with the sheet goods would be a lock miter, or a dado and rebate.


I am not really sure what door style we are going with yet, but I am trying to plan the carcass build asap.  Below is a snippet that I found online showing an outside corner that is somehow joined very smoothly. 


Not exactly sure the best way to proceed

Your input is appreciated!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 05:48 PM by Grasshopper »
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1808
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 05:57 PM »
Don't know your skills or design background, but a dangerous promise.
Randy

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 07:23 PM »
Don't know your skills or design background, but a dangerous promise.


Skills - - - TBD  (I'm a believer that if you can draw it, you can probably build it.  To date, I've never done any finish carpentry, but I'm a quick study, and totally immerse myself in stuff that interest me.  I'm "all in" now  ;D

Promise ——   [laughing], I have a pretty awesome wife who supports all of my expensive hobbies (from home theater/audio, to cars, motorcycles, photography, and now this.

Any feedback out there for my design options?
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline erock

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 07:39 PM »
Personally, I would say  DON'T OVER THINK IT.   I over think things  A LOT!

I'M NOT A PRO CABINET MAKER.......please keep that in mind.

But I would build a simple cabinet box.   Build a 2x4 platform for the boxes to sit on.  And make panels to match the doors you plan on using to cover the plywood boxes.   

The post could be 4x4 post to support the weight of the counter tops, covered in materials to match the cabinets.   Using the TS55 for 45* cuts and the domino.

The building process is simple, just make sure you use blue tape for laying out the island for keeping it square with the rest of the layout.

So just off the top of my head that's what I have to say about your project.   Again, I over think the process much of the time, maybe like you are doing, because we are hobbyist.   So please keep that in mind, I'm a hobbyist like you.

Best of luck to you....and your wife rocks...just like mine, because I have a garage full of Festool because she said the same to me

"I don't care, just get it done"   LOL!

Please keep us posted on how your projects goes.


Eric

P.S
sorry...forgot to say that I would choose option "B".   With out the mitered joints for the cabinet box.  But would cover the sides of the cabinet box with panels that matched the doors.   But that's my choice.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 07:49 PM by erock »

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 07:57 PM »
To attach the panels
Just use 1.25" flat head screws
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 02:06 AM »
Thanks to all the replies so far.  I am probably overthinking this.

I really to appreciate all the feedback so far.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline GOT8SPD

  • Posts: 228
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 02:53 AM »
wow...this is a big first project!

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1808
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 11:32 AM »
One way to join the corners of the cabinet would using a lock miter joint. However, this may be a little bit tricky to get exactly right. It definitely would require some setup with a specific, good quality, lock miter router bit which it is unlikely you own already. I don't know if that is the best way to do this, but it is one possibility. I'd experiment on smaller pieces with a couple of different possible alternatives to see how they might look. It obviously won't show you a whole cabinet but will give you some feedback on the overall look.
Randy

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 12:18 PM »
Thanks for sharing your feedback.

I was considering the lock miter (option "C" as an 'honorable mention').

I have the Festool CMS-VL router table coming soon, and the OF1400 which I assume would be a good enough setup to do this (you are correct that I don't have a router bit for lock miters.  I'd buy one though if it was the way to go).

I think I will eventually get a lock miter bit, as it looks like an awesome way to make different types of wood boxes.

Have you joined cabinet boxes with a lock miter?  I am curious if this is considered a good way to go.  If there are lock miter fans out there, do you have a bit you'd recommend for my setup (CMS-VL, and OF1400).



One way to join the corners of the cabinet would using a lock miter joint. However, this may be a little bit tricky to get exactly right. It definitely would require some setup with a specific, good quality, lock miter router bit which it is unlikely you own already. I don't know if that is the best way to do this, but it is one possibility. I'd experiment on smaller pieces with a couple of different possible alternatives to see how they might look. It obviously won't show you a whole cabinet but will give you some feedback on the overall look.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1808
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 01:23 PM »
Thanks for sharing your feedback.

I was considering the lock miter (option "C" as an 'honorable mention').

I have the Festool CMS-VL router table coming soon, and the OF1400 which I assume would be a good enough setup to do this (you are correct that I don't have a router bit for lock miters.  I'd buy one though if it was the way to go).

I think I will eventually get a lock miter bit, as it looks like an awesome way to make different types of wood boxes.

Have you joined cabinet boxes with a lock miter?  I am curious if this is considered a good way to go.  If there are lock miter fans out there, do you have a bit you'd recommend for my setup (CMS-VL, and OF1400).



One way to join the corners of the cabinet would using a lock miter joint. However, this may be a little bit tricky to get exactly right. It definitely would require some setup with a specific, good quality, lock miter router bit which it is unlikely you own already. I don't know if that is the best way to do this, but it is one possibility. I'd experiment on smaller pieces with a couple of different possible alternatives to see how they might look. It obviously won't show you a whole cabinet but will give you some feedback on the overall look.
I have not yet done the project for which I bought the lock miter bit. Arts & Crafts posts can be made this way to get consistent grain on the sides, but that is hardwood not plywood. I wouldn't see why a lock miter joint wouldn't work though. You might also consider pocket holes inside the cabinet. they would be a little easier although I have never joined mitered corners on plywood with pocket holes/screws. It would seem that you would have to be careful about slippage when doing the actual joining. My experience with pocket holes/screws is that there is always a tiny bit of slippage regardless of how well the two pieces are clamped. Again, I'd try some smaller mock ups with cheap wood and see what happens with a few different methods.
Randy

Offline miclee15

  • Posts: 38
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 02:09 PM »
While the building is the fun part, don't under estimate the kitchen planning/design phase.   I just spent 4 months with the Wife and Kitchen designer to plan out the layout of everything from the sink to cook top, we even spent 45 mins discussing where the recycle bins would go best. 

My initial thought is that with a 42" cabinet and a 30" cooktop, you will be very limited with the counter space while cooking.  Only having around 8" on each side is pretty limiting.  Not much room to put a dish to the side when preping a dish or transferring food from a plate to the pan.

The seating also looks very tight.  While the chairs fit, I think the standard for dining tables is to have 24" for each person.    Mock up your design with some boxes or use tape on a countertop and see how the flow is.  If your fine with it then great that is all that matters. 

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2014, 07:07 PM »
Thanks for your reply.  Good advice.

I actually am replacing the island that was there before.  It was a 48" wide cabinet with the cooktop before (which is what I am planning to replicate), and the prior island had two 24" cabinets butting into the 48", making a small square.  The area next to cook top  could have been bigger, but I am limited by how close the surrounding kitchen counter is.  I think the 48" is as wide as I can go. 

I also agree that seating for 6 is tight .  It is a huge improvement over the original island though  which only seated two in a similar footprint.  (I've thought about pushing the length some, but as it is currently designed, the island slab runs parallel to where my other countertop ends.  I will play with laying out some boxes to see how that fits.

 

While the building is the fun part, don't under estimate the kitchen planning/design phase.   I just spent 4 months with the Wife and Kitchen designer to plan out the layout of everything from the sink to cook top, we even spent 45 mins discussing where the recycle bins would go best. 

My initial thought is that with a 42" cabinet and a 30" cooktop, you will be very limited with the counter space while cooking.  Only having around 8" on each side is pretty limiting.  Not much room to put a dish to the side when preping a dish or transferring food from a plate to the pan.

The seating also looks very tight.  While the chairs fit, I think the standard for dining tables is to have 24" for each person.    Mock up your design with some boxes or use tape on a countertop and see how the flow is.  If your fine with it then great that is all that matters.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2014, 06:51 PM »
As a visual learner, based on initial feedback I wanted to work up a revised plan.  Basically, since the panels will cover up the carcass in its entirety, I suppose a simple joint (butt joint, pocket screws, etc) would suffice since the outside of the carcass won't show (if I use oversized doors as panels).

Based on this, I wanted to post my revised plan for feedback from the cabinet gurus here on the FOG.

See the plan using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood all around.  Face frame is extended to run flush after panels are attached.




For another reference, I snagged a couple pictures of islands online and cropped them close-up on the outside corner.  You can see a seamless transition at the corner. 

Close-up of smooth transitioned outside corner #1


Close-up of smooth transitioned outside corner #2


What is the best way to achieve a smooth transition without any overhang on an island outside corner? 

If I proceed according to the "Plan D", beyond caulk, would wood filler in the small seam, sanded give a perfect surface after painting where you couldn't see there the panel ended and the face frame began on the front outside corners (or where the two panels meet in the back outside corners)?

Thank you in advance.

Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 11:54 AM »
I wanted to post one more picture.  I was at a "Big Box" store, looking at their islands and I noticed something.

Every one of their island's outside corners had the face frame running flush to their side plywood (with a veneer), and back plywood (with a veneer).  The panels sit proud of the plywood face (at the same reveal as the door). 

I've attached a picture from the Box store.

Box store outside corner (note that the carcass is a butt joint, but the door and panel sit proud of the carcass.  This creates a different look, one that I don't like as much.  I prefer to see the face frame and the side panel run flush into each other.  I assume this is more of a custom look, where side panels proud of the carcass is more of a production look):




in contrast to the box store, Flush outside corner (from a picture I found online.  I really prefer this look with the side panel, visually integrated into the corner and not sitting proud as in the Box store example: 




As a recap, what is the best way to achieve the flush outside corner look as appears in the 2nd photo (to appear as though the panel is integrated into the structure of the cabinet).  I assume the way to achieve this is to have the face frame reveal the same size as the panel thickness, and then apply caulk or wood filler if there is any gap.  I am just guessing.

Feedback from those who have experience is appreciated.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 11:57 AM by Grasshopper »
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline JLB builders LLC

  • Posts: 339
    • JLB Builders LLC
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2014, 03:54 PM »
Congrats on the new tools! And way to jump in head first lol
Assorted Playskool tools and some Bob the builder vids, 
Kapex,TS75,CT26E,Domino,Kreg jig,Fein MM,Fein 6 inch sander, many Systainers,Porter Cable 6" joiner/13 inch thickness planner and Bosch tools etc.



http://www.facebook.com/pages/JLB-Builders-LLC/118746931490281

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2014, 03:33 PM »
Thanks.

Anyone out there with any tips for how to achieve this look?

Congrats on the new tools! And way to jump in head first lol
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2014, 08:51 PM »
I am hopefully starting my build in a week or so, and thought I'd bump this thread to see if there are any other suggestions for how to achieve seamless outside corners (with 3/4" ply and prefab panels).

Thanks in advance.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2014, 09:40 PM »
suggestions for how to achieve seamless outside corners (with 3/4" ply and prefab panels).

You cannot achieve the kind of corner you want with 3/4" ply and prefab panels. You must make the corner and then finish it.
You could try to a lock miter joint but you will see the joint line unless you repair it with the same finish.
Tim

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2014, 11:48 PM »
Tim,

Thanks for your feedback.  I do plan to paint the island white, would that help hide the seam (with a little caulk and paint)?

As I am a slow learner, can you elaborate on what you mean that I'd have to make the corner and then finish it?

Thanks again.

suggestions for how to achieve seamless outside corners (with 3/4" ply and prefab panels).

You cannot achieve the kind of corner you want with 3/4" ply and prefab panels. You must make the corner and then finish it.
You could try to a lock miter joint but you will see the joint line unless you repair it with the same finish.
Tim
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Billedis

  • Posts: 613
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2014, 09:13 AM »
I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2014, 01:13 PM »
Bill,

thanks for the suggestion.  I just watched Marc Sommerfeld's methods on his YouTube channel.  Pretty cool way to go.  I have been intimidated by building my own custom panels, but that gave me hope.  (In my mind, I needed to attach a pre-fab panel to a plywood side and back, but with Marc's method, just tongue and groove into the FF.  I wonder if I could still order prefab panels and tongue and groove those into a face frame that I build).

Questions:

-If you are doing a panel on the side and back, do you just tongue and groove it on the outside corner so it is flush?  (If not, how would you deal with the outside corner where the side and back panels meet?)

-How do you attach drawer slides without screwing to the inside of the panel (I assume you just screw into the rails and stiles, but thought I'd ask)?

-I just purchased the Domino, so with that in mind, would you still do pocket joinery on the inside of the face frame or would you join using dominos (same question for attaching dividers and shelves)?

-Are the side and back panels tongue and grooved (without 3/4" plywood anywhere) strong enough to support a 500 lb +/- granite slab?

Thanks again for the suggestion as well as the intro to Marc Sommerfeld's videos.



I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 03:37 PM by Grasshopper »
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2014, 12:39 PM »
Thanks for your feedback.  I do plan to paint the island white, would that help hide the seam (with a little caulk and paint)?

Ok, sorry I misunderstood. Yes it will help to hide the seam.

As I am a slow learner, can you elaborate on what you mean that I'd have to make the corner and then finish it?
I plan to attach side and back panels from the same company who will be doing new doors for the rest of my kitchen (I will actually order extra doors to be sized accordingly, and attach to the plywood box as decorative panels.)

You stated initially that you will be buying panels for the island exterior.
In the suggestions following; I am assuming that you will use the custom panels to wrap the plywood carcass vs making the panels part of the carcass. Doing this will avoid having to deal with creating a corner with plywood ends. This is the easiest way to achieve the affect you are looking for. In other words, the panels will cover the plywood carcass vs. integrating the custom commercial panels into the carcass.
Those custom commercial panels will need to be either fitted individually or created as a unit to create the corner(s) (butt joint, miter, lock joint etc.) and attached to the carcass (screwed to the carcass from the inside etc.) and then finished with the appropriate coating (lacquer etc.).

Good luck.
Tim

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2014, 11:33 AM »
Tim,

Thanks for your thorough response.  I sincerely appreciate your input as a cabinet professional.

My initial plan was to build up the carcass and then attach a prefab panel (thinking that this would be easier).  As I consider this method, I do worry about how difficult it may be to get the panels sized just right to not create problems.

The more I think about it, I am considering building the panels myself and not using plywood at all (except maybe in the center of the panel if I do a shaker style instead).  Is this the better way to go? (I assume a true "custom" island would be made with custom panels and not have a plywood carcass.  Correct me if I am wrong here)

I have the Festool CMS router table shipping now, so I suppose now is as good a time as any to figure out how to cope and stick panels (or use my Domino, which arrived last week if that is the preferred method for making panels).

If I do the panels myself, It seems like many options open up for how I can join the panels into a flush outside corner.

Based on another suggestion in this thread, I am considering tongue and groove joinery, which seems pretty simple.

I found these two videos (pt1&2) on youtube (thanks to the tip here on this thread):

(My one concern is whether or not the 1/4" tongue is really strong enough).  This looks like alignment would be a breeze with this method.

Cabinetmaking Made Easy  (I like these two videos because they actually show side and back panels being constructed):
Part 1-

Part 2-

Perhaps I am overthinking this as I often do, I just want to build something that 10 years from now I will still be proud of.

Thoughts?

You stated initially that you will be buying panels for the island exterior.
In the suggestions following; I am assuming that you will use the custom panels to wrap the plywood carcass vs making the panels part of the carcass. Doing this will avoid having to deal with creating a corner with plywood ends. This is the easiest way to achieve the affect you are looking for. In other words, the panels will cover the plywood carcass vs. integrating the custom commercial panels into the carcass.
Those custom commercial panels will need to be either fitted individually or created as a unit to create the corner(s) (butt joint, miter, lock joint etc.) and attached to the carcass (screwed to the carcass from the inside etc.) and then finished with the appropriate coating (lacquer etc.).

Good luck.
Tim
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Billedis

  • Posts: 613
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2014, 12:33 PM »
Bill,

thanks for the suggestion.  I just watched Marc Sommerfeld's methods on his YouTube channel.  Pretty cool way to go.  I have been intimidated by building my own custom panels, but that gave me hope.  (In my mind, I needed to attach a pre-fab panel to a plywood side and back, but with Marc's method, just tongue and groove into the FF.  I wonder if I could still order prefab panels and tongue and groove those into a face frame that I build).


If you are buying door panels, no they would not be large enough.  If the prefab panels are custom sized, then yes you could use these, but you would need to have them made 1/4 inch wider due to the tongue.
Questions:

-If you are doing a panel on the side and back, do you just tongue and groove it on the outside corner so it is flush?  (If not, how would you deal with the outside corner where the side and back panels meet?)

If you are having exposed back as well as front, then you can either build a complete back raised panel and tongue and groove it.  If you are going to have doors and drawers on the back, then you will use another face frame and tongue into the face frame groove.

-How do you attach drawer slides without screwing to the inside of the panel (I assume you just screw into the rails and stiles, but thought I'd ask)?

you have the front, middle and rear stiles to screw into.

-I just purchased the Domino, so with that in mind, would you still do pocket joinery on the inside of the face frame or would you join using dominos (same question for attaching dividers and shelves)?

Since I do not have a domino I use pocket screws, but from what I have seen here you could use the dominos, but would have to make sure they would not fill the groove.

-Are the side and back panels tongue and grooved (without 3/4" plywood anywhere) strong enough to support a 500 lb +/- granite slab?

You will have no problem with strength as your rails, stiles, and panels are all made from 3/4 inch wood, so probably as strong as ply.

Thanks again for the suggestion as well as the intro to Marc Sommerfeld's videos.

You are welcome.  I purchased his router table system about 5 years ago and it certainly has changed the way I make my cabinets now.  With the matched height bits for rails, stiles, panels, it makes raised panel cabinetry achievable for hobbyists like me.

Bill




I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2014, 01:23 PM »
I do worry about how difficult it may be to get the panels sized just right to not create problems.

If you are measuring from your carcass to order the panels, a good quality supplier will make it to your specifications.

The more I think about it, I am considering building the panels myself and not using plywood at all (except maybe in the center of the panel if I do a shaker style instead).  Is this the better way to go? (I assume a true "custom" island would be made with custom panels and not have a plywood carcass.  Correct me if I am wrong here)
You really need to build this island (with the panels and profiles etc.) to know if this is a better way in this particular case or not. You seem to be able to use Sketchup so build it virtually first with as much detail as you think is necessary to answer the questions you have and then you will have more experience as to what the advantages or disadvantages are.

I have the Festool CMS router table shipping now, so I suppose now is as good a time as any to figure out how to cope and stick panels (or use my Domino, which arrived last week if that is the preferred method for making panels).

Tools solve problems, you need to figure out (decide) what problems you need to solve first. The only tool anyone cares about when they use my island is whether I am one or not.


If I do the panels myself, It seems like many options open up for how I can join the panels into a flush outside corner.

Ya, you will have more options but you don't need more options. You have gotten a lot of very good options here.  You need to make some decisions and then those decisions will drive others.

(My one concern is whether or not the 1/4" tongue is really strong enough).  This looks like alignment would be a breeze with this method.

A glued 1/4" tongue is plenty strong enough for your purposes. If a car crashes through your kitchen, a 1/4" tongue won't be strong enough....

Perhaps I am over thinking this as I often do

Thinking and planning is good, indecision is not good.
Just don't get impatient with your progress or you will be redoing and wasting a lot of material.

I just want to build something that 10 years from now I will still be proud of.

The future will take care of it self. Are you making an island or a monument? Statistically speaking you won't be living in that house in 10 yrs, the person who buys your house won't like it and will tear it out so I wouldn't worry about it.
Do your best, redo what you feel must be redone.
Tim

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2014, 05:52 PM »
Thanks for your clarifications Bill.  Responses below in red

Bill,

thanks for the suggestion.  I just watched Marc Sommerfeld's methods on his YouTube channel.  Pretty cool way to go.  I have been intimidated by building my own custom panels, but that gave me hope.  (In my mind, I needed to attach a pre-fab panel to a plywood side and back, but with Marc's method, just tongue and groove into the FF.  I wonder if I could still order prefab panels and tongue and groove those into a face frame that I build).


If you are buying door panels, no they would not be large enough.  If the prefab panels are custom sized, then yes you could use these, but you would need to have them made 1/4 inch wider due to the tongue.

Thank you for the tip.  That makes sense
Questions:

-If you are doing a panel on the side and back, do you just tongue and groove it on the outside corner so it is flush?  (If not, how would you deal with the outside corner where the side and back panels meet?)

If you are having exposed back as well as front, then you can either build a complete back raised panel and tongue and groove it.  If you are going to have doors and drawers on the back, then you will use another face frame and tongue into the face frame groove.

The back will not have doors or drawers.  I am leaning towards building the full sized panel and join with tongue and groove into side panels

-How do you attach drawer slides without screwing to the inside of the panel (I assume you just screw into the rails and stiles, but thought I'd ask)?

you have the front, middle and rear stiles to screw into.

OK, sounds good

-I just purchased the Domino, so with that in mind, would you still do pocket joinery on the inside of the face frame or would you join using dominos (same question for attaching dividers and shelves)?

Since I do not have a domino I use pocket screws, but from what I have seen here you could use the dominos, but would have to make sure they would not fill the groove.

Jury is out if I will do my face frame with the Domino, good tip on watching out for filling the groove

-Are the side and back panels tongue and grooved (without 3/4" plywood anywhere) strong enough to support a 500 lb +/- granite slab?

You will have no problem with strength as your rails, stiles, and panels are all made from 3/4 inch wood, so probably as strong as ply.

That is what I was hoping for.

Thanks again for the suggestion as well as the intro to Marc Sommerfeld's videos.

You are welcome.  I purchased his router table system about 5 years ago and it certainly has changed the way I make my cabinets now.  With the matched height bits for rails, stiles, panels, it makes raised panel cabinetry achievable for hobbyists like me.

Bill


Thanks again Bill.  I'd love to see photos of your projects



I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2014, 06:41 PM »
Tim,

Thanks again for your response.  I really appreciate you taking your time on this thread.  My responses are in bold below:

I do worry about how difficult it may be to get the panels sized just right to not create problems.

If you are measuring from your carcass to order the panels, a good quality supplier will make it to your specifications.

This is good to know.  We hope to pick out cabinet doors out this week, so I can decide if I can build panels vs. order in the same time frame

The more I think about it, I am considering building the panels myself and not using plywood at all (except maybe in the center of the panel if I do a shaker style instead).  Is this the better way to go? (I assume a true "custom" island would be made with custom panels and not have a plywood carcass.  Correct me if I am wrong here)
You really need to build this island (with the panels and profiles etc.) to know if this is a better way in this particular case or not. You seem to be able to use Sketchup so build it virtually first with as much detail as you think is necessary to answer the questions you have and then you will have more experience as to what the advantages or disadvantages are.

I totally agree that before I build I need to model it in Sketchup.  The feedback I have received here on the FOG has been invaluable when it comes from those who have done this many times before and have helped point me in the right direction.  I am close to picking a method and then trying to model it before i make sawdust fly (or suck sawdust up with a CT)

I have the Festool CMS router table shipping now, so I suppose now is as good a time as any to figure out how to cope and stick panels (or use my Domino, which arrived last week if that is the preferred method for making panels).

Tools solve problems, you need to figure out (decide) what problems you need to solve first. The only tool anyone cares about when they use my island is whether I am one or not.

I love this.  I agree wholeheartedly.  In my journey to discover finish carpentry I have probably started backwards.  By getting a slew of tools prior to gaining the appropriate experience. I am racing to learn what my tools are capable of after the fact.  By jumping in the deep end I am hoping that the tools (or better yet, their capabilities) will drive me to do things a different way than I would otherwise.  Sort of like growing into my equipment if that makes sense (I was attracted to the Festool brand in part by a lot of the end-user videos demonstrating the "system" all working together.  This led me to get the "system" and dive in learning how it all works together.  (Also, who can resist when the wife blesses your buying a bunch of cool toys with the caveat that I just have to make her house nice  ;D)

Off topic, but when I got into photography I acquired my equipment organically in an "as needed" basis.  Once I gained enough experience to understand the value of quality components, I sold my entire kit in one swoop and purchased the equipment that made the most sense for me (with a better understanding of what I was getting).  I completely agree that the tool doesn't make the product, and solves problems as you have said. (In fact I am sure that there are many on the FOG that with a hand plane and a sharp rock could probably build a fantastic island.)

Back to your comment, I agree and am reminded of the Ansel Adams quote: "The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it."  The same could probably be said for the best tool in a man's workshop


If I do the panels myself, It seems like many options open up for how I can join the panels into a flush outside corner.

Ya, you will have more options but you don't need more options. You have gotten a lot of very good options here.  You need to make some decisions and then those decisions will drive others.

You are correct that I have gathered some good options.  After airing the many options here on the forum, it is helpful to a guy like me who hasn't done this before.  I appreciate hearing the feedback that these options are acceptable (and in the opinion/experience of others, which options are the most popular or common)

(My one concern is whether or not the 1/4" tongue is really strong enough).  This looks like alignment would be a breeze with this method.

A glued 1/4" tongue is plenty strong enough for your purposes. If a car crashes through your kitchen, a 1/4" tongue won't be strong enough….


Noted, don't hit the island with a car  [thumbs up]

Perhaps I am over thinking this as I often do

Thinking and planning is good, indecision is not good.
Just don't get impatient with your progress or you will be redoing and wasting a lot of material.

I have a tendency to 'overanalyze'.  Thanks for the tip.  In reality, I am ready to do this It just helps to hear feedback from professionals and advanced hobbyists alike.  Prior to jumping in, I wanted to make sure my general plan didn't have any fatal flaws in concept

I just want to build something that 10 years from now I will still be proud of.

The future will take care of it self. Are you making an island or a monument? Statistically speaking you won't be living in that house in 10 yrs, the person who buys your house won't like it and will tear it out so I wouldn't worry about it.
Do your best, redo what you feel must be redone.
Tim

I definitely am not seeking an heirloom piece or monument.  What I had meant by this is a few years down the road (when hopefully my skills are improved) I don't want to see obvious flaws that would drive me nuts.  (for example, "wow I wish I hadn't used rubber cement gluing the joints" as an exaggerated example)  We  are definitely in our "forever" house so we are here to stay and I'm hoping changes that we make to the house can stand the test of time and style (and have enough craftsmanship that I won't be totally disappointed by later).  Our style is a blend of craftsman and traditional styles (which have been "cool" for many decades).  If that makes sense.

Thanks again for your feedback!
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Linbro

  • Posts: 203
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2014, 03:46 AM »
Hey Grasshopper - only one way to get the look you want, in my opinion. Apply the panels to your ply boxes, mitering/gluing the external corners, re-enforced with biscuits or dominos, and finishing it all as one piece. (As you can see in the second photo, the one you took from online, whatever joint has been used on that corner is visible).
The only other option would be to express the joint, with a shadow line, or some sort of bead.
And, just an observation - avoid filler and/or caulk if you can, don't allow for it in your strategy. Aim for perfect!
 Good luck mate, Lincoln.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2014, 06:59 PM »
Lincoln,

Thanks for the feedback.  I was in a very nice home and the panels seemed to be as you described.  Decisions, decisions.

My CMS-VL table arrives this week.   [big grin]

Hey Grasshopper - only one way to get the look you want, in my opinion. Apply the panels to your ply boxes, mitering/gluing the external corners, re-enforced with biscuits or dominos, and finishing it all as one piece. (As you can see in the second photo, the one you took from online, whatever joint has been used on that corner is visible).
The only other option would be to express the joint, with a shadow line, or some sort of bead.
And, just an observation - avoid filler and/or caulk if you can, don't allow for it in your strategy. Aim for perfect!
 Good luck mate, Lincoln.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Godfather

  • Posts: 19
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2014, 07:54 PM »
You mentioned in one of your previous post that you have no woodworking experience.  I'd suggest working on a smaller project this week while the rest of your equipment comes in.  Basement cabinets, workshop or garage storage, dog house, anything to let some sawdust fly.  Good luck!

Offline WastedP

  • Posts: 345
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2014, 09:15 PM »
I second the notion in the previous post.  Not just for practice working with the new tools, but because as soon as you finish your island you're going to think of three different ways you would build it the next time.

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Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2014, 06:40 PM »
Good tip.  I am planning on building some raised panel doors as "tests" once my CMS arrives.  This will hopefully let me enjoy the TS55, MFT/3, CMS, OF1400, RO150 and Domino.



You mentioned in one of your previous post that you have no woodworking experience.  I'd suggest working on a smaller project this week while the rest of your equipment comes in.  Basement cabinets, workshop or garage storage, dog house, anything to let some sawdust fly.  Good luck!
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2014, 07:20 PM »
I second the notion in the previous post.

I agree.

...as soon as you finish your island you're going to think of three different ways you would build it the next time.

Thinking of ways to improve never really stops, and you can always think of better ways to do things.
I like 'grasshoppers' enthusiasm.
Tim

Tim

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2014, 11:56 PM »
OK,  I have decided how I am going to build the cabinet boxes, face frames etc. 

I have two sheets of 3/4" Birch ply begging to be ripped :)

In order to triple check my measurements, I have laid the main box out using Sketchup (wow, this was very eye opening.  I made several errors making "cuts" and "dados" virtually, glad I did this on the computer first before blowing through some pricy plywood).

Below is the design I am going with:  3/4" ply on sides and back, joined with the Domino every 6 inches glue and clamps, butt joints (iron on edge banding on exposed plywood on the outside back corners).  I plan to run a "nominal" 3/4" wide dado, 3/8" deep along the sides and back panels for the 3/4" bottom shelf. I have some 1x2 poplar ready to be a face frame and plan to join together with dominos and glue (center stile will be 3" wide).  I'll attach the face frame to the box using dominos and glue as well.

I feel like 3/4" back, sides and dadoed in shelf is going to be plenty strong to support a granite slab. 

My question is should I include stretchers?  And if I do add stretchers, would I be OK joining with glue and dominos, or should I rout dadoes and just glue and clamp (see options below):

Here is the final design:

Front


Back showing butt joint


From the top, no stretcher


Stretcher option #1, two lateral stretchers front and back


Support option #2, 4 blocks sitting at 45's in each corner



Thanks again for all your advice leading to this final plan.  I'd appreciate your help regarding "to stretcher or not to stretcher"  (and happy Thanksgiving.  I'm thankful for the FOG  ;D)

Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline WastedP

  • Posts: 345
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2014, 01:28 AM »
It seems like there are a million different ways to build a cabinet box.

A lot of the construction methods you will see when you look at different cabinets are based on controlling costs and speeding up production.  On most face frame cabinets, I see frames dadoed for sides (with rabbeted sides when a flush end is called for) on the cheapest box store cabinets all the way up to true furniture-quality pieces.  I'm of the opinion that if you use dominoes and clamp your frame onto the panes, you will be just fine.  I saw a sample cabinet a guy made where he used no mechanical fasteners to attach a face frame to a particleboard box with a glued butt joint.  He did it to prove the point that if a frame was attached that way and clamped overnight, there was no need for face nailing or angling staples in from the inside.  He was right, it was totally adequate.  It would be hard to take a kid off the street or a temp laborer and get the same strength from that joint, though.  Thus the face frame dadoes for registration and staples or hot glue or whatever to compensate for errors in material sizing.

The cheapest cabinets have plastic corner blocks stapled in, others have 45 degree angle blocks let into dadoes in the sides and frames, others use stretchers from front to back or, occasionally, full tops like a wall cabinet.  I definitely come down on the side of using a stretcher of some sort.

In practice, I like to use a full top for any cabinet, framed or frameless, because I have fewer parts to cut and as long as I cut it square and to the correct size, it will help keep my box square.  It uses more material, but I'm usually okay with that.  Definitely okay with it if it's a cabinet going in my own house.  My penchant for overbuilding has no checks and balances (save for maybe my wallet) when I'm working on personal projects.

3/4" ply will easily support granite (3 cm runs between 30 and 40 lbs per square foot) when the load transfers directly to the floor.  As long as your box doesn't rack it should be fine.  I have seen some amazingly chintzy cabinets hold up stone tops.  Maybe it's luck, but maybe it doesn't take as much strength as it seems like it should to support that weight.  Again, it is amazing what is adequate.  What is adequate for you may be something altogether beefier.

One thing I would definitely suggest is making test pieces after you set up your machines to make sure you're matching the dimensions of your models.  For checking dadoes and rabbets, I find myself using my calipers way more than a rule or a tape.  As I clean out my home shop, I can't believe how many scraps of test pieces I throw out.  Totally worth it in comparison to trashing a $90 sheet of prefinished ply or an ungodly priced scrap of Lumicor.

I'd say, "good luck," but "slow, cautious, and sure" seems more appropriate.









Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2014, 08:15 PM »
Thanks wastedp for the reply. What calipers do you use?

Any other feedback out there for the best top to complete my plan (or no top at all)?
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline lambeater

  • Posts: 477
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2014, 08:26 PM »
I won't give advice on how to build your island but if you are like me go to www.houzz.com for all the photo's for inspiration you will ever need.

Lambeater

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2014, 08:49 PM »
Thanks lambeater (love your profile pick. Big Shawn the sheep fan!)

I love Houzz and have tons of ideabooks setup for inspiration.

There is very little info from what I have come up with that addresses stretchers when the sides and back are all 3/4". I'll keep looking.

I won't give advice on how to build your island but if you are like me go to www.houzz.com for all the photo's for inspiration you will ever need.

Lambeater
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline tiki man

  • Posts: 42
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2014, 09:51 PM »
Hello

I have been building high end custom casework and furniture for a number of years now. Two points on you cabinet. With the face frame construction you will need something on top of the case to support the center of the FF. The corner 45s wont due anything to help the face frame from racking or moving when the doors are swinging.
Also I wouldn't build any case work without a full top. Helps square everything, give support to FF or non FF casework and will give a strong and level support system for countertop materials. 3/4" materials for all sides top and bottom with 1/4 back and 1/2 nailer is  bomb proof.

enjoy the build and show some pics when completed

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2014, 10:26 PM »
Thanks for your feedback tiki man. How would you join the full top? (Dado and glue, or dominos and simple butt joints?)

The main 48" base would have a cooktop, so if I go with a full top, I'll need to cutout for the top or just 3/4" stretchers front and back( and a full top on the 24" cab)

Great point on supporting the faceframe in the middle.

Hello

I have been building high end custom casework and furniture for a number of years now. Two points on you cabinet. With the face frame construction you will need something on top of the case to support the center of the FF. The corner 45s wont due anything to help the face frame from racking or moving when the doors are swinging.
Also I wouldn't build any case work without a full top. Helps square everything, give support to FF or non FF casework and will give a strong and level support system for countertop materials. 3/4" materials for all sides top and bottom with 1/4 back and 1/2 nailer is  bomb proof.

enjoy the build and show some pics when completed
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline WastedP

  • Posts: 345
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2014, 11:14 PM »
Thanks wastedp for the reply. What calipers do you use?

Any other feedback out there for the best top to complete my plan (or no top at all)?

I worked in a shop where there was a Mitutoyo caliper sitting at every machine, and they were great and sturdy.  I have a much cheaper $50 generic caliper that feels like it's always going to break.  I treat it like glass, store it in a foam case, and have to change the batteries in it way too often.  So, what I use is definitely not what I would recommend.

Offline tiki man

  • Posts: 42
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2014, 12:03 AM »
Hey Grasshopper,

this will be easy. If you are going to wrap or apply finished end panels and faceframe on all side of the island I would construct the interior boxes with pre finish maple nova ply product. ( then no finishing is needed for the interior of the casework ) with only the interior of the casework being seen before applying finished end panels you can nail or screw all interior boxes together. Pre finished maple edge band can be used on all exposed edges where doors or drawer are located if any ( shouldn't need that if you are building with face-frame ). Apply the finished end panels from the inside of the casework with screws, or headless pins with glue ( you will have to sand the exterior side of the pre finished materials for glue to work best or use Rue Glue ) ( and don't forget to include gaps to simulate door gaps between end panels )

Also make sure your end panels will have the correct dimensions to have constant stile widths all the way around the casework..

Make a pre-finished box and wrap with finish panels.. This will look great.   

You have the best of both world here. Using pre finish materials for the interior and paint grade exterior can clean up and look great


Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2014, 01:25 PM »
Thanks wastedp for the reply. What calipers do you use?



I worked in a shop where there was a Mitutoyo caliper sitting at every machine, and they were great and sturdy. 

Yes, the Mitutoyo caliper is great. Very accurate with auto shut off.

Any other feedback out there for the best top to complete my plan (or no top at all)?

Use a 3/4" top and a 1/2" back rabbeted into the sides, top and bottom. Makes a strong box, and the back isn't so thick as to make cut outs for plumbing and electrical to much of a PIA.