Author Topic: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction  (Read 4542 times)

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Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
I need to start adding more lighting in our old house. I want to install units that work well with LED light bulbs, and are rated for contact with insulation since we have a bit of blown Rock Wool lurking above our ceilings.
 Since this is a typical Chicago 2 flat with a sloped flat roof, there is that infamous large gap between the Ceiling you see, and the actual Roof joists. So, for many rooms, I have plenty of space above the ceiling to add a can where I need to as long as I avoid the flex A/C ducting of our SpacePak system.
 The last time I installed Recessed Cans was the Mid 90's, so I expect things have changed a bit... [embarassed] [big grin]
 So, any recommendations on good quality units currently out there?
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

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Offline Dick Mahany

  • Posts: 103
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 12:51 PM »
Like you, the last time I installed can lights was in the mid 90's. I used Halo H7 units and while they were good, they were very leaky to air.  I recently moved into a new home and the builder installed these cans which are completely sealed internally and have gaskets to seal against the sheetrock.

I can't find the manufacturer however The manufacturer is Elite Lighting.  They have an edison socket and readily accept LED floods as well as the LED can light retrofit bezel.  I have about 48 of these throughout the house and they are excellent.  You might check with a local electrical supply house and see what they recommend as I would guess that there is an equivalent "retrofit" housing.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 12:57 PM by Dick Mahany »

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7213
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 04:20 PM »
The box stores will have airtight, IC rated (rated for direct contact with insulation) recessed lights in new construction or remodel versions.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Holzhacker

  • Posts: 872
    • www.aic-chicago.com
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 04:23 PM »
Not much has really changed in terms of the cans themselves. The guts have changed a lot but not the bodies.
Your easiest option is to use remod cans rather than the NC cans shown in the picture. I don't think any of the remod cans are IC rated though. Could be wrong, I don't generally use remod cans.
In terms of cans I suggest you go to Evergreen Oak, GEM or Active electrical to check out fancier options. The cans HD has tend to be the same old basic stuff. There are some very cool LED, remote control, multi color and size options available.
Depending on your roof cavity ventilation and insulation issues you may want to go with air tight cans as well. What some real picky guys do is cut out a square for NC cans and then build an insulated box in the roof cavity around the can to prevent air loss and moisture getting into the roof cavity. For a vintage 2 flat that tends to be a bit anal though. Usually not a legit reason to do it unless you've already got moisture issues or are trying to be super energy efficient.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 297
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 04:52 PM »
The technology has progressed significantly on these things in just the past year or so.  You can now use a fully integrated LED panel that looks just like a recessed can, but is only 1/2 thick.  IC rated, dimmable- the best part is that you don't have to worry about placing them around rafters, they can just sit below them as they are only the thickness of the drywall.  Check it out: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Globe-Electric-Slimline-3-in-White-Finish-Integrated-LED-Recessed-Kit-4-Pack-91125/301999823

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7213
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 05:09 PM »
...Your easiest option is to use remod cans rather than the NC cans shown in the picture. I don't think any of the remod cans are IC rated though. Could be wrong, I don't generally use remod cans....

Halo 6 in. Aluminum Recessed Lighting Remodel IC Air-Tite Housing
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 225
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 06:46 PM »
There are a lot of options out there with LED.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Progress-Lighting-6-in-Metallic-Remodel-Recessed-Housing-IC-and-Non-IC-P187-TG/202650188  these are supposed to be good cans.  Not sure if you have a thicker ceiling, but these accommodate those.

Another option if you have the choice are the surface mount downlights.  Those go in a regular j box and are self-trimming.  They aren't recessed, which may be a consideration.   I personally like the way the downlights look and also felt like the smaller size fit my smaller rooms a bit better.  They are high CRI, too, which is nice. 

https://www.acuitybrands.com/products/detail/660701/Juno/4RLS-Downlight/LED-Wet-Location-4in-Round-Surface-Mount-Downlight


-Adam


Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 10:47 PM »
Not much has really changed in terms of the cans themselves. The guts have changed a lot but not the bodies.
Your easiest option is to use remod cans rather than the NC cans shown in the picture. I don't think any of the remod cans are IC rated though. Could be wrong, I don't generally use remod cans.
In terms of cans I suggest you go to Evergreen Oak, GEM or Active electrical to check out fancier options. The cans HD has tend to be the same old basic stuff. There are some very cool LED, remote control, multi color and size options available.
Depending on your roof cavity ventilation and insulation issues you may want to go with air tight cans as well. What some real picky guys do is cut out a square for NC cans and then build an insulated box in the roof cavity around the can to prevent air loss and moisture getting into the roof cavity. For a vintage 2 flat that tends to be a bit anal though. Usually not a legit reason to do it unless you've already got moisture issues or are trying to be super energy efficient.
. Good call, we have 3 roof vents that I forgot to mention that were installed in our 2010 tearoff.
Active is pretty close to me, so I will stop by.  [cool]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 10:52 PM »
The technology has progressed significantly on these things in just the past year or so.  You can now use a fully integrated LED panel that looks just like a recessed can, but is only 1/2 thick.  IC rated, dimmable- the best part is that you don't have to worry about placing them around rafters, they can just sit below them as they are only the thickness of the drywall.  Check it out: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Globe-Electric-Slimline-3-in-White-Finish-Integrated-LED-Recessed-Kit-4-Pack-91125/301999823
. I will check these out. Thanks.... [smile]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 10:55 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the great and quick responses.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 637
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 11:55 PM »
Look into Lightolier Lytecaster cans.

They used to make a higher quality product than those available at the big box stores.  I only say "used to" because I haven't installed any in the past few years so I can't guaranteed things haven't changed.  As far as I know, they're still great. 

For what it's worth, I prefer the 4 and 5 inch cans over than the 6 inch size.

Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 08:25 AM »
Look into Lightolier Lytecaster cans.

They used to make a higher quality product than those available at the big box stores.  I only say "used to" because I haven't installed any in the past few years so I can't guaranteed things haven't changed.  As far as I know, they're still great. 

For what it's worth, I prefer the 4 and 5 inch cans over than the 6 inch size.
   I've never worked with cans that small, what Bulb sizes are you working with once you install Cans under a 6" diameter?  Common ones or are you limited in your choices? . The smaller diameter Cans do look interesting since your Ceiling holes are smaller to cut out.... [scratch chin] [scratch chin] [popcorn]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3464
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 08:33 AM »
I turned an attic into a master bedroom, raised the ceiling 9" and then installed 5" Halo ICAT remodel housings. Their ICAT rated housings can be in direct contact with insulation.

At the time Halo was asking $80 for each LED light engine (I needed 9 of them), so I substituted an LED flood light costing $15 instead. I actually like the looks of a flood bulb better than the Halo light engine. 

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 443
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 01:21 PM »
I too have been using the 5" Halo cans for a couple of years now. 4" is too small and doesn't throw a wide enough light beam. 6" is too big which makes them a major focal point of the ceiling. The Halo branded lights are cost effective, dedicated LED cans, with no adapters needed. Something like $12 for the can, $45 for the led module, and another $18 for the trim ring. The emitters are the 900 lumen, 3,000k, and I can remember the CRI, but it was good too. The color isn't a soft yellow, but a clean white, without being blue. All come from Home Depot. Everyone seems to like them. They require dimmers though, as they are too bright to run full throttle all the time. With a Lutron Maestro dimmer, they can be dropped down to a movie level darker room, or cranked up to find a tiny lost screw on the floor. The dimmer switches for LED are expensive and there are not many that work. Plan on $100 per primary switch with second/third switches being $20 each. The switches can be had from Ebay.

You never mentioned budget. If there isn't one Juno and others are far superior assemblies, which run around $300 for each light.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 09:18 AM »
I too have been using the 5" Halo cans for a couple of years now. 4" is too small and doesn't throw a wide enough light beam. 6" is too big which makes them a major focal point of the ceiling. The Halo branded lights are cost effective, dedicated LED cans, with no adapters needed. Something like $12 for the can, $45 for the led module, and another $18 for the trim ring. The emitters are the 900 lumen, 3,000k, and I can remember the CRI, but it was good too. The color isn't a soft yellow, but a clean white, without being blue. All come from Home Depot. Everyone seems to like them. They require dimmers though, as they are too bright to run full throttle all the time. With a Lutron Maestro dimmer, they can be dropped down to a movie level darker room, or cranked up to find a tiny lost screw on the floor. The dimmer switches for LED are expensive and there are not many that work. Plan on $100 per primary switch with second/third switches being $20 each. The switches can be had from Ebay.

You never mentioned budget. If there isn't one Juno and others are far superior assemblies, which run around $300 for each light.
  I'm confused. Primary switch, and then second and third switches?
 I was planning on using a single dimmer for say, 4 lights in a room[ Chicago old house, so rooms are small, even being the 'big' room in the house like a Dining Room or Living room]
 Since we have Center Mounted Ceiling fixtures already, the Cans are perimeter lighting in a room.  Even if I install say 6 lights, 3 per long run of a room, are you thinking 1 dimmer per 3 row bank of lights?
 Regarding 'LED modules' versus a self contained LED bulb like I'd buy at HD or a Hardware Store, I'm really confused.... [blink]
 It appears that I'm really glad I started this post since there is way more info that I'm only learning now about LED lighting... [embarassed] [embarassed]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5158
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2017, 09:36 AM »
Use this housing;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-5-in-Aluminum-Recessed-Lighting-Remodel-IC-Air-Tite-Housing-6-Pack-H5RICAT-6PK/202707602

With this trim (allows you to select color temperature);

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-5-6-in-Color-Changing-White-Integrated-LED-Recessed-Light-53186141/300035875

With this dimmer (works at multiple stations);

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-Decora-600-Watt-Single-Pole-3-Way-Universal-Rocker-Slide-Dimmer-White-Light-Almond-R01-DSL06-1TW/206942378

Done..

I believe Peter_C was referring to switches at multiple room entries. 3 or 4 way switches that control the lights.

Also, it is a code violation for anyone other than a Chicago licensed electrician to do electrical work in Chicago. The city will not issue a permit to anyone other than a Chicago licensed electrician, not even the homeowner can get an electrical permit from the city.

https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/bldgs/supp_info/electrical_inspections.html

Forgot to mention-use this hole saw on your plaster ceiling. Avoid joists, that can ruin your day.;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-5-3-8-in-Recessed-Light-Hole-Saw-49-56-0303/203113613

Cut a basket ball in half to collect the dust.264271-0264273-1

Tom
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 12:19 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 474
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2017, 12:10 PM »

Also, it is a code violation for anyone other than a Chicago licensed electrician to do electrical work in Chicago. The city will not issue a permit to anyone other than a Chicago licensed electrician, not even the homeowner can get an electrical permit from the city.

https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/bldgs/supp_info/electrical_inspections.html

Tom

Nothing quite like making it illegal for a homeowner to work on their home. Add the mayor and the murder rate to complete the trifecta.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3464
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2017, 12:14 PM »
@leakyroof
If you want dimming capabilities with LEDs, make sure the dimmer you choose is capable of controlling the small current load that the LEDs present to the dimmer. I have Lutron Maestro dimmers and they need a 60 watt load in order to work.

In one room I wanted to replace 2 ea 60 watt floods with 2 equivalent LEDs, however the LEDs only consume 8 watts each. The Maestro dimmer would only turn on the LEDs, there was no longer a dimming function. Also sometimes the LEDs would turn on but then flicker, and sometimes just shut themselves off. I went back to 60 watt floods.

Hey @tjbnwi I like that Commercial color changing LED...why didn't someone come up with that before? So foolish to have to offer every LED light in 3-4 different color temperatures.

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5158
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2017, 12:18 PM »
@leakyroof
If you want dimming capabilities with LEDs, make sure the dimmer you choose is capable of controlling the small current load that the LEDs present to the dimmer. I have Lutron Maestro dimmers and they need a 60 watt load in order to work.

In one room I wanted to replace 2 ea 60 watt floods with 2 equivalent LEDs, however the LEDs only consume 8 watts each. The Maestro dimmer would only turn on the LEDs, there was no longer a dimming function. Also sometimes the LEDs would turn on but then flicker, and sometimes just shut themselves off. I went back to 60 watt floods.

Hey @tjbnwi I like that Commercial color changing LED...why didn't someone come up with that before? So foolish to have to offer every LED light in 3-4 different color temperatures.

@Cheese,

The dimmer I linked is LED/CFL compatible. I also use Lutron LED/CFL dimmers. The Leviton works well for the money.

There is also a CE LED that you can add a wireless hub to control Kelven and dimming through your smart phone.

Tom

Offline Daver

  • Posts: 167
  • checkered shirt guy
    • Moonbase Alpha
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2017, 05:34 PM »
I want to install units that work well with LED light bulbs, and are rated for contact with insulation since we have a bit of blown Rock Wool lurking above our ceilings.

I used cans on a remodel 2 years ago and when I was researching insulation options, the information I found stipulated that rock wool's fire resilience was such that direct contact was permissible whether the can was IC or not.
Obviously you would need to confirm this for yourself but if so, it could eliminate the iC requirement from your decision criteria.

Your work should reflect your fingerprints. -James Krenov
I'm not funny. What I am is brave. -Lucille Ball

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: Recessed Can Install Questions- Remodel, not new Construction
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2017, 07:46 PM »
Use this housing;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-5-in-Aluminum-Recessed-Lighting-Remodel-IC-Air-Tite-Housing-6-Pack-H5RICAT-6PK/202707602

With this trim (allows you to select color temperature);

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-5-6-in-Color-Changing-White-Integrated-LED-Recessed-Light-53186141/300035875

With this dimmer (works at multiple stations);

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-Decora-600-Watt-Single-Pole-3-Way-Universal-Rocker-Slide-Dimmer-White-Light-Almond-R01-DSL06-1TW/206942378

Done..

I believe Peter_C was referring to switches at multiple room entries. 3 or 4 way switches that control the lights.

Also, it is a code violation for anyone other than a Chicago licensed electrician to do electrical work in Chicago. The city will not issue a permit to anyone other than a Chicago licensed electrician, not even the homeowner can get an electrical permit from the city.

https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/bldgs/supp_info/electrical_inspections.html

Forgot to mention-use this hole saw on your plaster ceiling. Avoid joists, that can ruin your day.;

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-5-3-8-in-Recessed-Light-Hole-Saw-49-56-0303/203113613

Cut a basket ball in half to collect the dust. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Tom
. Thanks for the info. Having lived in Chicago since 1989, I am aware of some of the Electrical Codes. Was creating this thread to work with one or more electricians so I understand what's at stake in the easy planning stage.
The basketball ball trick is an old one, still a good one for plaster ceilings ..... [wink
No rush on this job, we've got hot irons all over the place in 3 different properties right now.... [eek]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....