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Author Topic: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.  (Read 13723 times)

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Online Alex

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Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« on: November 03, 2009, 06:18 PM »
I have to replace a wooden doorstep that's totally rotten. Removing it is no problem of course. Only problem I face now is how to put the new one back in, because the doorstep is wedge shaped and is totally enclosed on the side by the door trim. On the accompanying pictures you can see what I mean. The backside is higher than the front. This means it is impossible to put a new one in in one piece.

How do you pro guys do a job like this?






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Offline rwdawson

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 06:43 PM »
Alex,

I'm not even close to being a pro.  That said, the first thing I would do would be to check the condition of any surrounding wood.  In the Pacific Northwest, where I am located, it would be hard to believe that only one piece would be that rotted without there being other, adjacent damage.

If there is other damage, you may have your answer.  If not, it is time for a real pro to step in.

Richard

Offline Holzhacker

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 06:44 PM »
I'm not sure you are looking at the full scope of work.
From your pictures it looks like the bottom of the jamb is also rotted out really bad. This is very common. The moisture weeps up into the bottom of the jamb as it sits on the door sill. My guess is if you start poking the sides of the jamb you will feel more rot than you thought was there. Since the opening is painted it would be easy to cut out the bottom foot or so and put new pieces in with a lap joint. This would also allow you to easily put the door sill in first.
- Back to your original question. The easiest way to get the door sill in without doing anything else is such. Measure the highest and lowest height, inside to outside and see what the difference is. When I fabricate a door sill like this I make the overall height 3/4" low. This allows me to slide the completed sill into place and then slide a piece of 3/4" stock underneath it to raise it up to the finished height. Lumber should be treated wood and dry before painting. Put a bead of butyl or urethane under the piece laying on the cement.
- You could also just cut the bottom of the sides enough to slide the sill in and then use various types of fillers to patch the holes. Since it is a painted opening it doesn't really matter that much.
I guess it depends more on how you feel about knowing that the sides are still wood or are now some sort of putty painted over.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 08:07 PM »
Alex, I think Markus (Holzhacker) offered very good advice. Knowing English isn't your first language let me help with the terms he used. What you referred to a door trim is really the door jamb, the structure that holds the door and the door step is the threshold or door sill as Markus called it. Here are a couple of SketchUp drawing that might help.    
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 08:08 PM by Brice Burrell »
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Online WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 08:12 PM »
I am going to give you another option that is a combo of the other ideas.

Cut up the jamb a little, install new sill and fill voids with a 2 part wood epoxy.

Offline Holzhacker

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 08:28 PM »
Ok, Brice I have to know ... did you just make those drawings and if so what program did you use. I've imagined putting drawings like that together, unfortunately the various draw programs I have used are either too complicated or I am too stupid. How quick did you pound those out?
Markus
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline Dan Clark

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 08:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure that Brice is using Google Sketchup.   And he's something of an expert at creating explanatory drawings like this.

Dan.


Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 08:53 PM »
Ok, Brice I have to know ... did you just make those drawings and if so what program did you use. I've imagined putting drawings like that together, unfortunately the various draw programs I have used are either too complicated or I am too stupid. How quick did you pound those out?
Markus

Dan, got it, it's Google SketchUp. It took maybe five minutes to make these simple drawings. It's a free program and fairly easy to learn because there are a ton of great tutorials on the web. Well worth the time to learn. 
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline jvsteenb

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 03:56 AM »
Alex,

I had to do a couple of those repairs. You can be pretty sure that the bottom part of the doorjambs ( de kozijnstijlen ) are affected as well.
Replacing them is good practice, and makes your job easier as well.  You're probably constructing the new treshold ( onderdorpel ) in hardwood like Meranti or Merbau ?
In that case, replace the bottom parts of the jambs as well, as per Brice's top drawing, using the same hardwood.  But I would angle the saw line dawn to the front, anywhere between 30 and 45 degrees is fine. You'll have to find out how much of the wood is affected, but I'd suggest you replace a minimum of 3" .
Use a little room in the "connections" ( 0.5 - 1 mm ) and a modern 2K renovationcompound as the "glue". 
Epoxies are OK, but I've more or less abandoned them completely in favor of Urethane-Acrylic compounds. You know your way in the painting world - google "Sikkens Componex Fast" for example. They're not sensitizing like Epoxies are, and perform better in my experience. The double "glueline" acts as a barrier, so the hardwood bottom part starts to act like one of these stone jamb-bottoms - don't know what they're called in English, but you probably know them as "neuten" .
The downsloping connection to the upper parts isn't absolutely necessary, but it's an added touch - when the different woodspecies swell in a different rate, a small ridge could form under the paintwork, and the slope directs moisture from condensation or raindrops outside.

I have a recent picture in my telephone, but seem to be unable to locate the cable..... [sad]

From your pictures it's hard to determine if there's a groove ( waterhol ) in the bottom of the profile ( druiplijst / lekdorpel ) that is mounted to the door. You might want to look at that as well.

@ Native speakers: I apologize for the dutch gibberish, but sometimes it's rather tricky to find the right words in a different language  [unsure]


Regards,

Job
TS55, OF1010, RO150, RTS400, PS300, T15+3, CTL22E, CMS-TS55+Basis5A (OF1010), MFT/3, MFS400/700, FS800-1080-1400-1900, Centrotec-SYS 09, DF 500 full set, some accessories :)

Offline kev carpenter

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 05:45 AM »
personaly i would use a concrete sill ir step with a damp proof membrane or a row of bricks with a sill ontop  either way keep the wood of the ground and youl be ok [smile]

Online Alex

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 07:00 PM »
Guys thanks for all your helpful suggestions, I feel more confident about the right way to tackle this job.

Holzhacker, I'm gonna follow your advice and cut out a small portion of the jambs to slide the sill in. Your detailed explanation is very useful. Your other method looks quite complicated for me to realise with the tools I have, I have no planer for instance. Also, the difference in height between the front and the rear is quite big. Just one question remains for me, what is a "bead of butyl or urethane" exactly? Tried to Google it but to no avail.

Brice, thank you for your explanation of all the (rare) words. Indeed, as a foreigner all those trade specific words are difficult. And your visualisation with Sketch-up is also very useful. I didn't fully understand Holzhackers first method right away, making the sill out of 2 pieces and sliding a small piece under the other, but with that nice little picture of yours I now do. I think I'm gonna opt for the other method though, seems easier to me with the tools I have.          

I'm not even close to being a pro.  That said, the first thing I would do would be to check the condition of any surrounding wood.  In the Pacific Northwest, where I am located, it would be hard to believe that only one piece would be that rotted without there being other, adjacent damage.

If there is other damage, you may have your answer.  

Amazing as it is, the jambs are in pretty good condition. There is some rot, but it's really only very superficial.

You're probably constructing the new treshold ( onderdorpel ) in hardwood like Meranti or Merbau ?

Nope, it's gonna be some type of pine, Scandinavisch Grenen. Don't know what they call it in English. Unfortunately, the neighbour I have to do this for is a bit frugal and moans at every extra euro he has to throw at it.  ::) But he's an old man already who expects not to live too long anymore, and as he says "as long as it serves my time, it's ok. And my time isn't long anymore". But Scandinavisch Grenen is pretty good wood actually. Just not as expensive as Meranti or Merbau.  


Epoxies are OK, but I've more or less abandoned them completely in favor of Urethane-Acrylic compounds. You know your way in the painting world - google "Sikkens Componex Fast" for example. They're not sensitizing like Epoxies are, and perform better in my experience. The double "glueline" acts as a barrier, so the hardwood bottom part starts to act like one of these stone jamb-bottoms - don't know what they're called in English, but you probably know them as "neuten" .

[laughing] Never heard of 'neuten' actually. I know what a 'neutje' is, but that's something completely different. ;)

I would love to work with Sikkens Componex WR Fast, as I'm a big fan of everything Sikkens makes and with paint it's the first brand I go to, but this stuff is just not in my budget. I also feel I really don't need it. I actually always use a 2 component woodrot filler epoxy from the Hema. I know, that's a surprise, the Hema, since most of their paint related stuff is not what a sensible man would buy, but this one product is really satisfactory for me, and as it goes for 2 component fillers, dirt cheap. Been using it for over 10 years now, with no problems on the long run. It works really good when you apply it, great adherence, and after it has dried, it is very strong, easy to sand and model, and still has some flexibility in it so it will move with the wood.  

From your pictures it's hard to determine if there's a groove ( waterhol ) in the bottom of the profile ( druiplijst / lekdorpel ) that is mounted to the door. You might want to look at that as well.

That profile/lekdorpel you mention isn't in the best shape anymore, but as for now, I'll just leave it alone. The guy doesn't want me to make everything in top condition, he just wants me to prevent it from falling apart within the next 5 years. ;D But thanks Job, for adding a lot of useful information.

Once again guys, thanks for your input. It will help me very good.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 05:48 AM by Alex »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 07:38 PM »
Quote
Just one question remains for me, what is a "bead of butyl or urethane" exactly? Tried to Google it but to no avail.

Markus was referring to a flexible caulking to seal the underside of the threshold.
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Offline jvsteenb

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 05:15 AM »
Alex,

With "a bead of butyl or urethane" he's referring to "een rand butyleen- of urethaankit" .

Actually, I rather like Scandinavisch Grenen, I think it's pretty comparable to Pitch Pine - finer grown and harder then Yellow Pine, but with a bit more knots and somewhat less straigh-grained.
Long-term durability may be an issue, and it's not as hard as one would like for a doorsill, but I'm sure it will suffice.
 
The HEMA woodrotcompund is quite OK - I've used it as an affordable substitute for Alabastine, but switched to Probastine later on, which I've now more or less completely abandoned for Sikkens Componex. ( I use what I still have, mainly to fill bradholes in glass-trim )
The Sikkens stuff is expensive, but that's partly because you have to buy two full 310ml tubes at once. The "standard" componex works out even pricier, for you can't really use it without the special 2K primer..... but both versions work a treat, and the results are great. It's also a lot easier to clean your putty-knives ( I like that, for I don't use throw-away knives ) and your hands as well, should you forget to wear latex gloves for "a small job".

I like a "neutje" from time to time (a strong drink, "jenever" in a small glass, preferrably ice-cold) but what I referred tho was this:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neut_(bouwkundig)

Regards,

Job
TS55, OF1010, RO150, RTS400, PS300, T15+3, CTL22E, CMS-TS55+Basis5A (OF1010), MFT/3, MFS400/700, FS800-1080-1400-1900, Centrotec-SYS 09, DF 500 full set, some accessories :)

Offline Holzhacker

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 08:49 AM »
Sorry about the slang, bad habit. Brice is of course correct. I was referring to a couple different kinds of caulk. I put caulk under the door sill for a couple reasons. 1- provides just a wee bit of separation between the wood and masonry for a little air movement as possible; 2- more importantly putting a nice bead of caulk on the underside of the board along the front edge provides for a nice tight, invisible seal to keep water from weeping under the door sill. Obviously you can just caulk the front edge of the sill/cement seam and it looks great to start. However some may have noticed how over time that particular caulk seam tends to separate and look ugly. Good luck with your project.
Job, I've been seeing the Sikkens caulk/construction adhesive (yesterday actually also) at our local roofing supply house for about a year now. Haven't bought any yet, mainly because I have a proven caulk that I'm happy with, Solarseal - great outdoor caulk. You've had good luck with Sikkens, like their products? Maybe I'll give it a try next time. As a POI, a tube was $3.86 yesterday at the supply house, $4-6 is average for a good outdoor caulk.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline jvsteenb

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 11:16 AM »
Hello Holzhacker ( Markus, is it? ),

Sikkens has a wide range of products, but I don't know the product you seem to be referring to.
Down here, the Componex WR products are a 2 component woodrepaircompound, in a couple of variants.
I'm afraid I have to shell out somewhere around 60,- euros for two 310ml caulktubes, one for the A component, one for the B component. To top that off, the tubes are only filled with 290 ml, so basically, the stuff is more than 100,- euros per litre  [scared]  you don't want to translate that to dollars......
But it's worth it, for it works wonders.

Were you situated in Holland, I'd happily tell you you couldn't go wrong buying Sikkens, for over here it's a top of the line brand in paint-related stuff - expensive, but superior quality.
But I don't know how Akzo Chemicals uses their brand names over there, so any advice i'd give would be rather useless.


Regards,

Job
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:20 AM by jvsteenb »
TS55, OF1010, RO150, RTS400, PS300, T15+3, CTL22E, CMS-TS55+Basis5A (OF1010), MFT/3, MFS400/700, FS800-1080-1400-1900, Centrotec-SYS 09, DF 500 full set, some accessories :)

Offline kdzito

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 02:47 PM »
I would also use a concrete sill/stoop and then a aluminum type threshold with a concealed drop bottom door sweep (an aluminum frame fastened into a dado/groove on the door's bottom and having a rubber/neoprene gasket that presses/seals against the threshold).  I like the concealed drop bottom door sweep since it's not on the door's face and it's a clean detail.

Pemko is a manufacturer for the threshold and door bottom and I'm not sure if they sell in Europe so I'm sorry if I'm misspeaking about the availability of these products; however, there may be something comparable.

By using wood products, water will always be attacking them and causing dry rot.  The concrete and aluminum materials withstand water better.  I'm not sure if you are doing this on a bid/budget or a time and material job, so please forgive me if I'm giving you options that exceed your bid/budget.
To build with my two hands is a creative outlet.

Offline Dave Ronyak

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2009, 12:14 PM »
WOW!!  What a fantastic thread that vividly demonstrates the comraderie and value of FOG and its members, and their willingness and ability to help one another despite living continents away and having very different home languages!!  I offer one correction:  Brice is more than "somewhat of an expert" in use of SketchUp.  I learned a lot from reading this thread, just in case I Ever had to replace an old wooden entry door threshold.

Dave R.
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Offline Nigel

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2009, 02:35 PM »
As for calk/sealant I would use Sikaflex if  it's available.7 or 8 Euros 310ml,sticks like anything,lasts forever,flexible.What more can you ask?Some of the prices mentioned above are frightening!
Regards,Nigel.


« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 03:12 AM by Nigel »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2009, 03:11 PM »
....I offer one correction:  Brice is more than "somewhat of an expert" in use of SketchUp....
Dave R.

Aww shucks Dave, your going to make me blush. [embarassed]


As for calk/sealant I would use Sikaflex if  it's available.7 or 8 Euros 310ml,sticks like sh*t to anything,lasts forever,flexible.What more can you ask?Some of the prices mentioned above are frightening!
Regards,Nigel.


We have that stuff over here too, nice product.
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Online Alex

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Re: Replacing a doorstep - advice please.
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 08:54 PM »
WOW!!  What a fantastic thread that vividly demonstrates the comraderie and value of FOG and its members, and their willingness and ability to help one another despite living continents away and having very different home languages!!  I offer one correction:  Brice is more than "somewhat of an expert" in use of SketchUp.  I learned a lot from reading this thread, just in case I Ever had to replace an old wooden entry door threshold.

Dave R.


It sure was very useful. It's great to have a source where you can ask for advice from a lot of very experienced people and I'm really grateful for that.

Since I hadn't posted any projects yet I thought, lets document carefully how I did this and post it back here.

You can read about it in this thread.
 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:59 PM by Alex »