Author Topic: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?  (Read 12064 times)

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Offline Dbn107

  • Posts: 19
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2015, 12:12 AM »
For what its worth, a few months ago our company demo'd a master bath on the first floor and a wet vent stack ran behind a linen closet.  When we pulled the rock behind the closet door trim there were at least 10 hand drive 16d finish nails smack in the pipe.  The bath was original to the house from the 60's and the nails were still in the pipe but I'm sure there was some movement and there was no sign of water damage anywhere.  It was also an abs pipe and we replaced it but honestly I would have been comfortable putting some 2 part epoxy on the holes.  no kidding gorilla tape would probably have been enough. 

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Offline BMAC

  • Posts: 159
  • BMAC Construction & Consulting Ltd.
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2015, 12:31 AM »
Please just replace the pipe, please. All you guys suggesting some quick fix wouldn't scab together a load bearing post that you accidently cut right? Wouldn't wrap electrical tape around a few wires and throw it inside the wall? Don't be that guy.

I'm with rizzoa13. Do it right.

I see all sorts of half a** repair attempts in my job (fire/flood restoration and formerly as a Casualty and Litigation Insurance Claims Manager) and far too often a catastrophic property loss event can be traced back to a repair done poorly and not to a proper workmanship standard.

Plus, if you do cause a loss at someone else's property you may find yourself potentially liable for the the damages and triggering a claim under your CGL policy and causing upheaval in their lives or putting them at risk for injury.

Ask yourself, what would an experienced licensed and insured plumber, electrician, carpenter, engineer, etc do under the circumstances. Just my $.02 worth.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 12:47 AM by BMAC »
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Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2015, 02:03 AM »
Thanks everybody!  I'm planning to do this right. The areas I don't want to skimp are : water, electric, gas & structural.

I actually may end up calling a plumber.  I'm more than happy building things, but know when to bring in a pro.

Your feedback has been very helpful. Hopefully my next question for the FOG is more fun
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2616
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2015, 02:35 AM »


For PVC 90 mm and 150mm we sell repair sleeves where I work PT. They are about 200mm long and have a slit along their length to enable them to slip over the original pipe after proper glue has been applied. Assuming the damage is to one side this may work for you.

There may be similar repair sleeves available in NA for ABS.

Otherwise the ABS couplers you purchased. More fiddly though, for you or a plumber.  [big grin]

« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 02:42 AM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline andy5405

  • Posts: 400
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2015, 03:32 AM »
Well this thread has shown there are plenty of ways to skin a cat as my grandmother used to say. Some are suggesting that some of the proposed solutions are bodge jobs which I find amusing.

A new coupling would be ideal but it might involve having to put quite a bit of strain on fixings up and down the line to enable it to be fitted. That might cause other problems and that is assuming that there is enough movement on the pipe to actually use this method. It wouldn't be as simple as using a slip coupling on copper as there can't be sufficient slip using a solvent weld solution unless you worked at the speed of Superman.

The rubber coupling solution seems to be the next best bet but the pipe would not be as strong as before though I'm not entirely sure it would need to be?

I guess that all the other "lesser" solutions that have been proposed would work as well and I wouldn't be averse to using them in my own house but wouldn't do so in a customer's house. Even a spot of silicon on each hole would work and I wouldn't mind betting that if the pipe was wrapped in gaffer tape that it would work to.

I think it puts it into perspective if you turn the problem on it's head and look at the physics. Suppose the challenge was to find  way of getting even a tiny amount of water to exit the holes by introducing large amounts further up the system. I think you would be hard pushed to get any water out as it is dropping vertically and there are no forces at work that will divert the water from it's downward flow. It could all depend on whether the flow was columnar or laminar as to how turbulent the water was in the pipe and indeed round the outside  of the inside of the pipe and whether the tiny hole on the inside might disrupt flow sufficiently to throw it a few millimetres sideways whilst working against the force of gravity. It might not even leak with the holes unplugged. The OP might already be able to tell us the answer to that.

Also there's no shame in a bodge job provided the bodger has sufficient knowledge of all the materials and parameters at work. Belt and braces solutions are in some ways for the unskilled. I come from a farming background and there is no more pressure to find a solution when important equipment fails than seeing a  rain storm developing on the horizon or having knowledge of a bad weather forecast. It's often a bodge or a quick fix that gets things going again and a crop safely harvested. Often those temporary fixes work so well that they become permanent. You learn a lot growing up in that kind of environment.

I guess there is more pressure than that and it's probably why I'm not fluent in German. I can't imagine that the RAF mechanics that kept all the Spitfires and Hurricanes in the air during the Battle of Britain would have been executing text book repairs all of the time. It's fitting to think in the 50th year since Churchill's death that Britain's finest hour was probably one massive bodge job on the ground. They just did whatever it took to get those planes back out there.

So I say don't automatically disrespect an apparent bodge job as it may well be a professional fix depending on the knowledge of the person proposing it.



« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 03:41 AM by andy5405 »

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2015, 05:50 AM »
Please just replace the pipe, please. All you guys suggesting some quick fix wouldn't scab together a load bearing post that you accidently cut right? Wouldn't wrap electrical tape around a few wires and throw it inside the wall? Don't be that guy.

Apples and oranges.

No, I wouldn't try to repair it if I'd cut right through it. If I'd accidentally drilled 3 tiny holes in it however, then there would be no need to replace it. That's what the OP has.

Repairing something to a good standard is perfectly acceptable, and is not a bodge. If repairs weren't acceptable, there'd be a lot of auto bodyshops out of business.

Plugging three tiny holes with the same material* and welding it in doesn't make me "that guy". In this situation, that would be my preferred solution, and done properly I'd put money on it passing a pressure test, too.

*The OP mentioned PVC originally, but as someone else said it's more likely ABS. Either way, there are solvent weld cements available.
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Offline festoolviking

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2015, 06:20 AM »
Here is what I would do. I'm not a plumber but I think this is a good fix.

I would use two "repair slip couplings" and a new piece of pipe.
Cut off a piece long enough for one slip coupling in the broken pipe.
Slip one coupling on the pipe upwards and one coupling downwards.
Add a piece of pipe to the same size as you cut out and slip the couplers on.
Use lubricant to make the job easy.

Festoolviking
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Offline socaljohn

  • Posts: 59
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2015, 07:26 AM »
I'm not that guy either and I'm with jonny round boy on this one. Don't over complicate this.

You have 3 very tiny holes in a vertical 3" ABS waste pipe in a small cavity. The square area involved is very small.

If you cut through the center hole and push the pipe to one side to slip on the Fernco adapter you will be extending the damage to about 10" line around the entire pipe. Cut above and below and you have 20" total seam across 2 areas. Cutting it out in that small cavity is one difficulty that can grow in complexity. pushing the pipe around could cause problems in an area that you can't see. Don't extend the problem.

Rough up the area around the holes with sand paper, slap some JB Weld or epoxy on it and call it done.
http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-plasticweld-putty/




Offline WastedP

  • Posts: 344
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2015, 12:26 PM »
If you're going to do a half-(hearted) repair job, why do it at all?  Just pay somebody else $75+ per hour for a service call.  Then you can sue them if your house floods with fecal matter.  Also, if you don't do the repair to code and you sell the house, you could be held liable for not disclosing your jury-rigged fix.  Save the improvisation for post-apocalyptic survival situations.

If this was my house, I'd do the repair myself.  Looking at the original photo, I'd block out the stud to the left of the DWV pipe and strap the pipe to the blocking above and below the damage.  Then cut out the damaged section, with enough room to add a replacement section with couplings.  I'd use a coupler on the bottom of the new section, and a flexible coupling with the metal cover on the upper section.  Make sure your pipe cuts are square.

Offline andy5405

  • Posts: 400
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2015, 12:43 PM »
Hurrah for all the common sense approaches and shorter replies than mine. I tend to waffle in the night when I suffer from insomnia.

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 332
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2015, 01:25 PM »
Just use this stuff and call it done: http://www.plast-aid.com/index.html .  This happens all the time in new construction, my plumber used this and then runs the pressure test just fine.  Never a blink from the inspector.  Not a bodge job.  Plastic welds.  no one would accuse a metalworker of a bodege by welding a repair onto an existing piece metal- same difference.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2015, 01:30 PM »
I'm with JRB on this one.  All the way
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Deansocial

  • Posts: 2114
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2015, 05:10 PM »
Id split a coupler and weld it on. Would be no different that a strap on boss welded to the pipe

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2015, 06:47 PM »
Drill, tap, install pipe plugs.

Tom

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2015, 08:36 PM »
I've already posted my response but then just now I have a rather strange thought.  If this is a repeat of something else here please just chalk it up to Super Bowl syndrome.  Hoe about drilling out the holes with a larger drill bit and then using a tapered plug cutter to make matching plugs.  Using the proper cement glue and tap them in.

Just a thought.

Offline getyourbone

  • Posts: 46
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2015, 10:15 PM »
If it was me, I'd stick a tampon in the holes...Nothing seems to be able to plug up the sewer lines good and tight like those little white mice!
Happy wife - Happy Life

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2015, 07:01 PM »
*Update*  So yahoo, it's time for drywall.

I decided to hire out the plumbing for cheap insurance.  I debated using epoxy and I'm glad I didn't.  Once we cut out the bad section we looked up in the 3" pipe and noticed 18 gauge brad nails coming into the pipe from the other side.  Turns out, whoever installed the pantry shelves when the house was built shot brad nails into the pipe from the other side in a few places.  There were some mighty rusty brads sitting in the pipe.  For the time being, it was doing a good job plugging the holes.  In time with the rust, I'm certain there would have been some minor leaking.

Glad to catch it, so we cut a much bigger section of pipe out as a permanent fix.

Now I will just have to add a little plumbers tape, and enjoy some drywall repair before I can install the desk.  Oh joy :)









Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2015, 07:02 PM »
While the wall is open wrap some insulation around the pipe.  It will help with sound being its pvc and not cast iron.

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2015, 07:04 PM »
Good call!

While the wall is open wrap some insulation around the pipe.  It will help with sound being its pvc and not cast iron.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline John_

  • Posts: 159
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2015, 08:30 PM »
...I decided to hire out the plumbing for cheap insurance... 

I am guessing that is the *expensive* insurance!  The cheap insurance would have been cutting a union in half and gluing it on or just driving some stainless steel screws in, etc

At least it is fixed and you can move on....  Just curious, how much does  plumber charge for something like that?

Online waho6o9

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2015, 08:35 PM »
Great news!

Offline land_kel

  • Posts: 157
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2015, 08:40 PM »
Good news, especially with the additional brad nails in the upper section. Smart to "do it right" and depending on the amount of action the pipe will handle while your surfing, the extra insul may be useful.
Lots of stuff

Online mike_aa

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2015, 08:48 PM »
Grasshopper,
That's a real load off your mind!  I'm glad it turned out the way it did.  Now it's time to finish up!

Mike A.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2015, 08:14 AM »
good call
<<<I decided to hire out the plumbing for cheap insurance. >>>

My first introduction to the building trades was at about 14.  A neighbor who was a plumber was also built like the typical cartoon plumber.  He had a job removing ancient black and galvanized pipe and replacing with copper tubing.  This was back around mid 40's right after WW II had ended.  Much of the work was to be performed in a very tight crawlspace, and I had learned how to solder in HS shop class.  I was "volunteered" for the job in the crawlspace as I was barely over 100 #'s wringing wet if my boots were full of water.  I am claustrophobic; but was able to keep my problems with tight spaces under control by fighting thru cobwebs and my interest in the plumbing problems at hand.  The old pipes had to be cut and dragged out into the cellar area.  The new pipes had to be measured, dragged back in and sweat together.  All of that seemed to be far more interesting than my horrors a being compressed into the narrow space.  That space was so tight that each time i slid my way into the work space, i had to determine whether i had to work lying on my stomach, or lying on my back.  I could not turn my shoulders without going into panic mode.  I spent most of my one week vacation from school that spring fighting cobwebs, dust and claustrophobia, but i learned a lot about plumbing.  The main thing I learned was that i was not very interested in working insight spaces full of spiders.  The installation part was interesting.  Otherwise, i could not have lasted.

Fast forward:  When i came out of the army, i worked for a short time with the same plumber.  By that time, he was well on the way to a very liquid diet and would leave my on the job alone while he went supposedly for materials. the main materials quite often required that i get hold of a buddy and the two of us would make the rounds of the plumber's "materials suppliers", load him into his car and my buddy would drive the plumber's car and I mine.  We would deliver him to his home and i would do the bookkeeping for the days work i had done as well as keeping track of the actual plumbing materials used.  I learned a lot about plumbing during the month or two I worked with the man.  Eventually, he did straighten himself out and we remained friends until he moved away.

Faster forwarder:  eventually, my wife and i moved into a house in Ridgefield. We were on a local water system where the water was so hard (lime) you could cut it with my stone chisels.  It was not long before a valve in the system sprang a leak.  since i was a "very experienced" plumber, i confidently set to work making the repair.  By the time i was able to break the fitting loose, i had broken a section of rotted pipe.  fixing that led to a broken rotted fitting somewhere else.  What should have taken me no more than an hour, tops, ended up taking the better part of a day with several trips to the supply house in the bargain.

The next time we had a valve leak, the same sort of scenario.  AND, the next time, I got smart.  As the old German mason who had been a mentor back in my pre army days had said, "So soon vee grrow oldt, so late schmardt." I called a plumber friend.  I have never touched a wrench to a plumbing problem since.  I don't really care what he charges, it is great insurance.  [smile]
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline mark60

  • Posts: 90
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2015, 11:50 AM »
What starts out as a simple "install a desk" turns into a plumbing nightmare. Home ownership is never dull. :)

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 594
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2015, 02:21 PM »
Tell me about it!  I've got a downed tree in my back yard that I haven't had time to cut up and haul away as I have been to busy trying to make the inside look nice.

All part of life i suppose.  I installed the drywall yesterday, 2nd coat of mud coming now.



What starts out as a simple "install a desk" turns into a plumbing nightmare. Home ownership is never dull. :)
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline them700project

  • Posts: 63
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2015, 04:05 PM »
Being a plumber I would have done 1 of 2 things. Plastipoxy, stuff works like a charm. or 2 silicone it and take one of those aforementioned furnco couplings and sliced it down 1 side. and put it over the silicone with the slice on the opposite side.

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 328
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2015, 09:27 PM »
I'm glad you found all the holes and got them fixed.  I am also glad to see a plumber recommend something similar to what I did once.

In our Pittsburgh PA house >20 years ago, I made all new kitchen cabinets (3/4 oak plywood boxes, 3/4 raised panel Oak doors) one at a time - or a run at a time - and installed them as I went.  My late wife was tolerant and like the new cabinets.  When I removed a large cabinet where we put all our everyday dishes, I found it had been hung on the plastic waste stack from the upstairs bathrooms.  The drywall was moldy and the screws had rusted off.  We'd had probably close to 100 lbs of dishes in that cabinet and it was held to the wall by only one screw in a stud.  I removed all the moldy wall board - fortunately it didn't extend out past the edge of the cabinet.  Then I cleaned the area of the pipe with a hole, used a drill bit to clean up the hole by making it very slightly larger, and put a dab of silicone caulk over the hole and hung the new cabinet.  It never gave us any trouble. 

But in my case there were no nails in the pipe at another elevation.

It surprises me a little when experienced woodworkers won't do plumbing in plastic pipe.  Normal woodworking tools work fine.  With couplers, that was an easy job.  You can also buy plastic couplers without the ridge in the center so you can slide them up (or down) on the pipe so it doesn't have to go up and down.  goop it up with glue, slide into position and permanent repair made.  I will soon redo 3 bathrooms, one at a time.  I've put in 3 so far in other houses.  Soldering copper slows things down but isn't hard.  Here they use CPVC supply lines and with plastic supply and drains, it goes pretty fast.  A CMS is nice for cutting the pipe but a handsaw or reciprocating saw works fine.  Plumbers even cut small ones with special scissors type devices. 

I hope you got a fair price.  I had a neighbor get charged $400 to reattach a hose bib.  And the job was done poorly and had to be redone.  It was about $5 in parts and half an hour to do it.  I saw him having an issue but was busy and didn't go over.  I was sad later when I heard what happened.  I helped him on the next plumbing issue he had.  He was a good neighbor. 

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 328
Re: Uh Oh, What the Studfinder Missed - Plumbing Tips Anyone?
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2015, 09:32 PM »
I also don't use stud finders any more.  They don't always work.  I use a 18 gauge brad nail 2 inches long.  It makes a tiny hole and is way too fragile to damage plumbing.  You can also feel the difference of hitting wood.  If the wall is framed right, you find one and then check at 16 inch intervals to be sure you know where the others are.  Takes very little time.