rnt80
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Location: Gilbert, AZ Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 651
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« on: August 23, 2009, 08:05 PM » |
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I'm finishing up this tv frame and I can't figure out the angle that I need to cut this trim that wraps around the perimeter of the frame. The columns are angled at 10 degrees. I've bevelled the backside of the trim that is on the front of the trim so that the top of the trim remains parallel to the base and top of the unit. I've tried some trial and error this afternoon but I'm running out of wiggle room with my trim stock. Any help would be appreciated.
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Rob Z
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Location: Northern Virginia Member Since: Apr 2009
Posts: 325
Contractor-Northern VA, USA
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 08:32 PM » |
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Hi Russell,
If I understand what you are trying to do with the trim....then the simplest thing to do (if you don't have a compound miter saw) would be to rip some strips of wood on the table saw with the blade set at 10 degrees, then back the piece of trim in the miter saw with the sacrificial strip ripped to 10 degree bevel. Then, you could cut the outside miters the regular way.
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rnt80
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Location: Gilbert, AZ Member Since: Mar 2008
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 08:55 PM » |
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Rob, I've got a Kapex so the bevel setting is my friend  . The problem I've had thus far is that since I had to bevel the back of the molding that's applied to the front of the frame it is slightly thinner at the top compared to the trim that runs along the side. Does that make sense? When I cut the miters the pieces don't match up. I must be going at this all wrong but I don't know how to fix it yet.
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mastercabman
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Location: norfolk va Member Since: Apr 2007
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NORFOLK,VA
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 09:03 PM » |
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Why don't you cut both pcs at 5 degree bevel? That's the way i look at it.
I don't know if it will be a perfect fit but it's worth a try!
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 09:10 PM by mastercabman »
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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Tom Ryan
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Location: State College, PA (moving soon to Wallingford, PA) Member Since: Mar 2007
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 09:16 PM » |
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I don't really have an answer, but if it were me, I would mill some scrap to "look like" the molding, at least on the faces and edges that meet other faces and edges. They wouldn't have to be long to get the angles. Then I'd get the angles right, and finally worry about the length.
Sorry if this is too primitive an answer. I was trained as a mathematician, and long ago learned that trial and error got the answer faster, and with fewer errors (if you don't cut your boards to short).
If your jpegs are from Sketchup, you can look at the joint from the end, get the angle, and do the same from the front. This should give your settings for your Kapex, at least for a first approximation to trial and error.
Tom in SE Pennsylvania
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mastercabman
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Location: norfolk va Member Since: Apr 2007
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NORFOLK,VA
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 09:17 PM » |
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Rob, I've got a Kapex so the bevel setting is my friend  . The problem I've had thus far is that since I had to bevel the back of the molding that's applied to the front of the frame it is slightly thinner at the top compared to the trim that runs along the side. Does that make sense? When I cut the miters the pieces don't match up. I must be going at this all wrong but I don't know how to fix it yet. Did you bevel the whole back of the trim?  Why? It will never fit,you need to keep the same thickness of the trim that you are trying to joint.Try what i suggested about cutting yoiur trim at 45 miter and 5 bevel.Or you may need to cut a 3rd pc (transition between the 2 pcs)but usally i do that with cronw molding when the ceilling changes elevationon at a corner.
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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rnt80
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Location: Gilbert, AZ Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 651
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 10:08 PM » |
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I had to back bevel the trim that goes on the front of the cab, if I didn't then it would sit at an angle. Am I trying the impossible here? If I bevel the pieces that go along the side then they will angle up.
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bionicus
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2009
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2009, 10:35 PM » |
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If I'm looking at this right, you can't bevel the entire backside length of that front strip. Things just won't line up, as I think you've realized. But if that front is, say, 6 inches wide, and you back-bevel just those middle 6 inches of the strip, with the overhanging corners then hugging back around slightly to meet up with the sides at 45 degrees, something very close to the desired effect should be achievable... I think.
Alternatively, if you could carefully notch into the front face, the same effect could be attained without having to bevel the trim piece at all.
Either way, tricky stuff.
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 6200
Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 11:00 PM » |
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Russell, I've checked it out in SU, it's a compound miter, miter at 52.1 degrees and bevel at 10 degrees (I think but it is getting late here in the East  ). Since the pieces are different thicknesses you aren't going to use a 45 for miter. 
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 11:01 PM by Brice Burrell »
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Steve-CO
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Location: Littleton, CO Member Since: Oct 2007
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2009, 11:24 PM » |
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rnt80
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Location: Gilbert, AZ Member Since: Mar 2008
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2009, 11:29 PM » |
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Russell, I've checked it out in SU, it's a compound miter, miter at 52.1 degrees and bevel at 10 degrees (I think but it is getting late here in the East  ). Since the pieces are different thicknesses you aren't going to use a 45 for miter. [ ERROR: SPECIFIED ATTACHMENT MISSING ] Thanks Brice. I'll give it shot tomorrow when I get home from school.
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cdconey
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Location: Castle Rock, CO Member Since: Jan 2007
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 11:58 AM » |
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Could you just make relief cuts in your column to allow you to use unmodified molding?
From the picture, I'm having a hard time distinguishing where the angle is
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The dangers of cut & paste.....
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 6200
Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 12:10 PM » |
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Could you just make relief cuts in your column to allow you to use unmodified molding?
From the picture, I'm having a hard time distinguishing where the angle is
It looks like the angle is on the front and the sides are square. I've only looked briefly at this calculator but I couldn't figure it out. Kinda makes me feel dumb to not be able to figure out how to have a calculator give me the answer. 
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Alex
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Location: The Netherlands Member Since: Nov 2008
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 12:37 PM » |
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I'm pretty good with trigonometry, but seriously, from your description, I got no clue what you're actually trying to do.
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cdconey
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Location: Castle Rock, CO Member Since: Jan 2007
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 02:04 PM » |
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Could you just make relief cuts in your column to allow you to use unmodified molding?
From the picture, I'm having a hard time distinguishing where the angle is
It looks like the angle is on the front and the sides are square. I've only looked briefly at this calculator but I couldn't figure it out. Kinda makes me feel dumb to not be able to figure out how to have a calculator give me the answer.  TS55 and guide rail, set TS55 to 10 degrees and cut a relief.
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The dangers of cut & paste.....
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RonWen
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Location: One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America. Member Since: Feb 2009
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 03:12 PM » |
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Russel, I can't tell from your sketches, I assume that the columns are angled 10 degrees just on the front face and on the outside ends of the cabinet? The column faces next to the TV and (of course) on the cabinet rear are plumb? Is that correct?
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
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Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2009, 04:04 PM » |
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Russel, I can't tell from your sketches, I assume that the columns are angled 10 degrees just on the front face and on the outside ends of the cabinet? The column faces next to the TV and (of course) on the cabinet rear are plumb? Is that correct?
Ron, don't think so, look carefully at the drawing, I'm pretty sure it's just the front face that is angled. The front piece is a rectangle so the sides aren't angled.
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RonWen
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2009, 05:52 PM » |
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Russel, I can't tell from your sketches, I assume that the columns are angled 10 degrees just on the front face and on the outside ends of the cabinet? The column faces next to the TV and (of course) on the cabinet rear are plumb? Is that correct?
Ron, don't think so, look carefully at the drawing, I'm pretty sure it's just the front face that is angled. The front piece is a rectangle so the sides aren't angled. It might be a bit of a task blending the trim widths if one piece is sitting at a 10 degree angle and the others are plumb. They will in effect need to be different widths, probably easiest by ripping a slight amount off the plumb trim at the bottom edge.
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rnt80
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Location: Gilbert, AZ Member Since: Mar 2008
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2009, 08:25 PM » |
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Russel, I can't tell from your sketches, I assume that the columns are angled 10 degrees just on the front face and on the outside ends of the cabinet? The column faces next to the TV and (of course) on the cabinet rear are plumb? Is that correct?
I obviously haven't done a good job of explaining my predicament, sorry for any confusion. I've included some more pictures in hopes that it will clarify things. Brice was correct when he stated that the columns are only angled on the front face. The two sides are straight up and down. The other part that is angled at ten degrees is the stretcher that runs between the two columns. The molding that I'm applying runs along the stretcher and then runs around three sides of the column (it doesn't wrap around the back). The issue is that in order for the top part of the molding to remain parallel to the base of the cabinet the back of the molding has to be bevelled at ten degrees. The moulding that is applied to the side of the columns is not bevelled, if it were then the top part of the profile would angle up. I think Brice is on the right track with his SU model. Since the pieces are of different thickness the miter angle will not be two 45's. I didn't have a chance to try his calculations today but I should have some time tomorrow.
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Michael Kellough
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Jan 2007
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Southern New York
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2009, 09:20 PM » |
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If only the front plane of the column is angled out... your joints will be the usual 45 degrees, but the front piece of moulding does need to be back beveled 10 degrees +.
Miter your unaltered stock at the usual 45 degrees but measure the lengths for the lower edge of the miter joint, not the top because you're going to have to relieve the top/back of the front stick so the piece can fit tight at the bottom. The top of the actual miter will be a little behind the front face of the column.
I'd probably assemble the pieces first and do the fine tuning of the back bevel with a small belt sander or rigid sanding block. To make it easier to fine tune make a heavy hollow ground back bevel on that front piece before assembly.
EDIT
Okay, the above is only good for the pieces that wrap around the column. I didn't realize you have a stick crossing the similarly angled stretcher but the process is still similar unless I've missed something else.
For the sticks to fit as mitered joints they haver to be cut as if they are are identical in shape. I think I read that you've already back beveled the stock? If so, you going to have to figure out a way to support the molding from it's face. When you figure that out you'll be back to making all the miters 45 degrees again and measuring lengths for the bottom of the molding.
Hopefully you have some unaltered stock left. If you do I'd use some fast setting goo like plumbers two part putty epoxy to mold an impression of the face of the molding while it is sitting up perfectly square (in back) to the table. Use something as a release so the epoxy can be popped off the molding. Make a long enough mold that you can cut it in two so each half can support the back beveled molding securely while it is being cut.
Remember, for the faces of the molding to fit right they have to both be cut standing upright regardless of the condition of the backsides. You can't lean one stick forward and get a good fit. Similarly, if you've already back-beveled a stick already you have to find a way to keep it from leaning back while it's cut. Also, the very short sticks on the inside faces of the columns will need a small trimming after assembly since they will but into a plane that is leaning 10 degrees.
Another EDIT
If you've already back-beveled your stock all you have to do is rip an off-cut from some other square stock that has that same bevel and stand that against the fence and push your molding against the off-cut strip so the stock is supported at the normal orientation.
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« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 09:59 PM by Michael Kellough »
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
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Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2009, 10:36 PM » |
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Micheal, I think I understand what you're saying but I don't believe your method accounts for the 10 degree slope on the front pieces.
As for cutting the stock, I'd cut it as if it were crown, nested.
All of this has peaked my curiosity. I'm going to have to make some time to play with this, I've gotta know the answer now.
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cdconey
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Location: Castle Rock, CO Member Since: Jan 2007
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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2009, 12:07 AM » |
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One challenge will be that the front molding will need to be 'deeper' to account for the 10 degree slope to match up properly with the sides.
One of two things will happen on the column, it's a matter of making a decision of what look you are after.
A; the top of the molding profile projection will be narrower than the sides and be difficult to hide on the miter. If a releif cut was made to be perpendicular to the sides, then the typical 45-45 =90 miter would work and the relief cut would hide any discrpency of the miter and molding being shy on the front-top. The molding could be cut, glued, and placed on the column all in one step. This treatment probably wouldn't look noticeable to the viewer since you won't be looking down on it, and you will see the underside more often.
B: If you want to have the same profile projection on the top of the molding aroung the column, the bottom of the molding must be 'made up' to allow for the slope of the column. If you would cut your unaltered moldings at a typical 45 degree miter, then add on a 10 degree backer to the front piece, or put it on the column as a nailer, this should work. This will look 'heavier' from the seated position.
I don't think a compound miter will work in this situation with the applied trim. Crown yes, trim no.
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The dangers of cut & paste.....
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Michael Kellough
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Jan 2007
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Southern New York
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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2009, 08:55 AM » |
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Micheal, I think I understand what you're saying but I don't believe your method accounts for the 10 degree slope on the front pieces.
As for cutting the stock, I'd cut it as if it were crown, nested.
All of this has peaked my curiosity. I'm going to have to make some time to play with this, I've gotta know the answer now.
It does... but CD said it more succinctly in his reply. Also, I only addressed the small molding that is fully nailed to the sides of the column. I think dealing with the crown is easier since only the lower portion of the crown contacts the variable sloping column, and I'd cut it upside down as usual. In the case of the crown it might be worthwhile to shim (make a spacer) the top of the crown out from the fence the equivalent of 10 degrees instead of back beveling the lower portion of the crown. If that is done the pieces on the sides of the columns will only have a scant tangential contact with the column so a filler block should be added for strength.
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Greg_R
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Sep 2007
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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2009, 04:48 PM » |
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Dumb question: can't you just measure the angle in sketchup?
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Greg_R
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2009, 05:00 PM » |
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Did you want the front piece of trim to be tilted down @ 10° as well? If not, it would be a simple 45° cut (with a wedge shaped backer piece for the front trim). If the front trim -is- tilted down then you'd need to cut a 10° angle out of the back of the side piece of trim to tilt the side trim downward (otherwise the corner details would not line up). Think of a more extreme (angle) case with 2 rectangles (instead of complex moulding curve) to see how these 2 pieces must be at the same angle for them to match up. Once both pieces are 'tilted' at the same angles then you'll use the previously posted miter calculator.
Alternatively, butt the pieces together and round off the corner for a rounded transition (instead of the pointed corner).
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mastercabman
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Location: norfolk va Member Since: Apr 2007
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NORFOLK,VA
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« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 07:36 PM » |
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It needs a transition pcs!!!! 
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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rnt80
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Location: Gilbert, AZ Member Since: Mar 2008
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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2009, 03:07 PM » |
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Sorry, I forgot to post pics of the finished project. The molding turned out fine. There are gaps at the top of the joint if you're looking down from the top of the frame. Luckily no one will ever have that perspective.
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RonWen
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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2009, 04:28 PM » |
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Very, very, very nice work!
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