Kev
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2012, 01:22 AM » |
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The corbel on the cherry room mantle is also upside down.
Zoom snooping eh? That's the sort of thing that would drive me bonkers after first notice ... |
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Rembo
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2012, 02:08 AM » |
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a lot of work! everything is done at the highest level!
How many people did so, and for how long?
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mastercabman
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Location: norfolk va Member Since: Apr 2007
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2012, 08:28 AM » |
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The frieze, dentil molding, corbel thing going on in the that grand staircase room is just bad.
Bad,bad or good bad?
The corbel on the cherry room mantle is also upside down.
Don't know if you're right because there are several fireplaces in this house with some have reclaim mantel that is set up the same way.
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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mastercabman
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2012, 08:39 AM » |
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a lot of work! everything is done at the highest level!
How many people did so, and for how long?
The house has been under construction for the past 4 years. The carpenters and painters has been there for 2 years. |
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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Vindingo
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2012, 10:13 AM » |
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Bad,bad or good bad?
I could have been more tactful, it isn't my taste. I guess it struck a strange cord because the craftsmanship, time, and money are apparent, but I don't think the finesse of the designer is commensurate with that of the craftsmen. Don't know if you're right because there are several fireplaces in this house with some have reclaim mantel that is set up the same way.
That trim piece mimics a corbel, the fat part on the bottom makes it look upside down. Sure it is "right" if the designer wants it that way, but its untruthful structure makes it visually displeasing. |
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mastercabman
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2012, 11:20 AM » |
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That trim piece mimics a corbel, the fat part on the bottom makes it look upside down. Sure it is "right" if the designer wants it that way, but its untruthful structure makes it visually displeasing. I will ask the carpenter when i go back on monday.But i don't think those are actually called "corbel" I have seen this design before,can't recall where,but i believe it is set the right way. I will try to do more research on this. |
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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Kev
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2012, 11:52 AM » |
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That trim piece mimics a corbel, the fat part on the bottom makes it look upside down. Sure it is "right" if the designer wants it that way, but its untruthful structure makes it visually displeasing. I will ask the carpenter when i go back on monday.But i don't think those are actually called "corbel" I have seen this design before,can't recall where,but i believe it is set the right way. I will try to do more research on this. I'm inclined to side with Vindingo - regardless of the intent, it looks like a corbel accent upside down. Corbels are supports and the designs vary - you'll often see very artistic corbels with animal heads, etc. This is very common corbel design ... http://www.corbels.com/corbels-and-brackets/traditional-corbels/7-w-x-3-1-2-d-x-11-h-traditional-leaf-corbel.html |
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Tim Raleigh
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Location: Oakville Canada Member Since: Jan 2010
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2012, 03:41 PM » |
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Don't know if you're right because there are several fireplaces in this house with some have reclaim mantel that is set up the same way.
That trim piece mimics a corbel, the fat part on the bottom makes it look upside down. Sure it is "right" if the designer wants it that way, but its untruthful structure makes it visually displeasing. Great discussion. I believe that those "scrolls" are not corbels but brackets. It is somewhat semantic but it does change the design intent. The bracket is To my eye (research) this is a federal design and mimics a federal newel post found in The Elements of Style: An Encyclopedia of Domestic Architectural Detail The profile and some of the rest of the molding detail seems quite close to rooms in the Winterhur house. While I am still not sure if it is right of wrong, there seems to be some precedent for the design and profile. Here is a link to a discussion on JLC about the differences between corbels and bracketsTim |
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Vindingo
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2012, 04:43 PM » |
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Great discussion. I believe that those "scrolls" are not corbels but brackets. It is somewhat semantic but it does change the design intent. The bracket is To my eye (research) this is a federal design and mimics a federal newel post found in The Elements of Style: An Encyclopedia of Domestic Architectural Detail The profile and some of the rest of the molding detail seems quite close to rooms in the Winterhur house. While I am still not sure if it is right of wrong, there seems to be some precedent for the design and profile. Here is a link to a discussion on JLC about the differences between corbels and bracketsTim That is an interesting thread on JLC. I'm not sure it matters if it is called a corbel or bracket. In the case of the newel post, it touches the ground so it can function differently. Jay House newel post  Winterthur house fireplace (snagged the photo from http://www.winterthur.org/?p=805)  not one fireplace in that house has an upsidedown scroll, bracket, corbel, modillion (learned that one from the JLC link) It serves a different function when attached to a wall. Sorry for hijacking your thread mastercabman, if you would prefer to take the discussion to a different section of the forum I will remove my posts. |
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« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 04:45 PM by Vindingo »
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mastercabman
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2012, 05:10 PM » |
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Great discussion. I believe that those "scrolls" are not corbels but brackets. It is somewhat semantic but it does change the design intent. The bracket is To my eye (research) this is a federal design and mimics a federal newel post found in The Elements of Style: An Encyclopedia of Domestic Architectural Detail The profile and some of the rest of the molding detail seems quite close to rooms in the Winterhur house. While I am still not sure if it is right of wrong, there seems to be some precedent for the design and profile. Here is a link to a discussion on JLC about the differences between corbels and bracketsTim That is an interesting thread on JLC. I'm not sure it matters if it is called a corbel or bracket. In the case of the newel post, it touches the ground so it can function differently. Jay House newel post Winterthur house fireplace (snagged the photo from http://www.winterthur.org/?p=805) not one fireplace in that house has an upsidedown scroll, bracket, corbel, modillion (learned that one from the JLC link) It serves a different function when attached to a wall. Sorry for hijacking your thread mastercabman, if you would prefer to take the discussion to a different section of the forum I will remove my posts. Not at all! I think this is very interesting.I do believe that what we are talking about is a "scroll" not a "corbel" and as mentioned by Tim,it is most likely a Federal style and i have seen this scroll design before and it is set the way it suppose to be. You may find it a little weird looking,but for me,......well i do like it. BTW that room in the picture that i showed is my favorite room in that house. Still has a lot of work to be done and i can't wait to see the end result. |
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I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!
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Tim Raleigh
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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2012, 05:36 PM » |
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not one fireplace in that house has an upside down scroll, bracket, corbel, modillion (learned that one from the JLC link) It serves a different function when attached to a wall.
Vindingo: Love this discussion. I am glad you pointed out this unusual design. I am not sure I agree that there is nothing in the Winterthur that looks like this, but that's ok  . The scroll leaning back is a bit odd looking but not out of character with the mantle profiles in the Winterthur house and there seems to be more influences drawn from the Winterthur house for use in the molding and details mastercabman has graciously posted. I would be curious (anyone?) to know if the scroll is correct or incorrect architecturally and what the origin is. Tim |
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Vindingo
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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2012, 08:50 PM » |
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Not at all! I think this is very interesting.I do believe that what we are talking about is a "scroll" not a "corbel" and as mentioned by Tim,it is most likely a Federal style and i have seen this scroll design before and it is set the way it suppose to be.
You may find it a little weird looking,but for me,......well i do like it.
I think a "scroll" can fit under the umbrella of type of "corbel". A scroll can be a corbel, but a corbel is not necessarily a scroll. Vindingo: Love this discussion. I am glad you pointed out this unusual design. I am not sure I agree that there is nothing in the Winterthur that looks like this, but that's ok . The scroll leaning back is a bit odd looking but not out of character with the mantle profiles in the Winterthur house and there seems to be more influences drawn from the Winterthur house for use in the molding and details mastercabman has graciously posted. I would be curious (anyone?) to know if the scroll is correct or incorrect architecturally and what the origin is. Tim To be fair, I was commenting only on the orientation of the fireplace corbels (scrolls  ). There are none which have the fat side down in any of the photos on the virtual tour. If you look at the photo I posted of the yellow room, both the scroll applied to the wall and the bracket under the mantle are oriented opposite of the cherry room. From Vitruvius: 13. All the members which are to be above the capitals of the columns, that is, architraves, friezes, coronae, tympana, gables, and acroteria, should be inclined to the front a twelfth part of their own height, for the reason that when we stand in front of them, if two lines are drawn from the eye, one reaching to the bottom of the building and the other to the top, that which reaches to the top will be the longer. Hence, as the line of sight to the upper part is the longer, it makes that part look as if it were leaning back. But when the members are inclined to the front, as described above, they will seem to the beholder to be plumb and perpendicular. http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/vitruvius/book03.htm#5As far as the rest of the design, I can definitely see the Winterthur house in the there, especially the Chinese room. The scrolls are probably a derivation of the Ionic order. I slept through architecture history. Federal Style -> Roman arch -> Greek arch Vitruviushttp://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/vitruvius/ "On Architecture" And just for fun:  |
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« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 08:54 PM by Vindingo »
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Tim Raleigh
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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2012, 11:56 PM » |
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Vindingo Ok, you win . Thanks again, I am learning a lot. Great info. I don't think we disagree. Terminating that frieze pattern with that scroll just looks, wrong. Just to be clear when I referenced the Wintherhur house details I was referring to the pulvinated frieze in the Architraves above the windows and doors. While it's a stretch it looks like the sides of the frieze on the mantle started out as a pulvinated frieze and then it was terminated with the scroll...if that makes any sense. There is an example of a similar albeit stylized bracket on the Architrave above the doors in the in the Riggs National Bank in Washington D.C. Tim |
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GPowers
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2012, 03:11 PM » |
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love this kind of discussion, both all the photos of an over the op house. And the discussion about stuff being install incorrectly.
4 years and it WRONG?
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Greg Powers
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2012, 03:40 PM » |
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In looking at how "corbels" are usually used, I notice that they act as an angle piece to go from a narrower area or flat area to a larger or more prominent area. For example, in the stairway area, they go from a flat wall to details which are several inches out from the wall.
But on that fireplace, the widest part of the mantlepiece seems to be the same width as the outside of the fireplace. In other words, the "scroll" or "corbel" makes the mantel support narrower, then it immediately widens again for the mantel. Could this be what's making you guys cringe? That it's a decorative "angle" that flows the "wrong" direction?
It's definitely an impressive house, especially the craftsmanship.
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Ed "What the" Heckman
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Tim Raleigh
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« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2012, 09:23 PM » |
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In other words, the "scroll" or "corbel" makes the mantel support narrower, then it immediately widens again for the mantel. Could this be what's making you guys cringe? That it's a decorative "angle" that flows the "wrong" direction?
For me the whole upper part of the mantle looks somewhat unbalanced and the "inverted scrolls" are not helping it. While I did try to find some precedent for this design somewhere, Vindingo made some good points. After some more research it appears that this is mantle is derived from "Style of the Brothers Adam" which is generally classified as Federal style in the US but I cannot find any historical reference to support that. I am interested in the origin of this design (I am not sure it's wrong, but it sure is unusual) and hopefully Mastercabman will be able to get some more info if it's available. |
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Vindingo
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« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2012, 01:03 AM » |
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How about a curve ball? I have found some precedents which contradict my original assertion on the morphology of the "scroll" How about Neo Classical Georgian for $1000? http://www.westlandlondon.com/stock/chimneypiecestyle/neoclassical-and-georgian-fireplaces/item/10024/image2.htm"A SUBSTANTIAL CARVED OAK CHIMNEYPIECE IN THE PALLADIAN MANNER. The undermoulding of the large tiered shelf is carved with repeating Acanthus leaf, and supported on seven pairs of scrolled Acanthus leaf brackets, over a dentil and egg and dart border above the frieze panel. This wide panel is abundantly carved with high relief scrolled floral decoration...flanked by massive scrolled end brackets. The plain opening surrounds the original bolection shaped Verde Antico green marble ingrounds and footblocks. " For me the whole upper part of the mantle looks somewhat unbalanced and the "inverted scrolls" are not helping it. While I did try to find some precedent for this design somewhere, Vindingo made some good points.
After some more research it appears that this is mantle is derived from "Style of the Brothers Adam" which is generally classified as Federal style in the US but I cannot find any historical reference to support that.
I am interested in the origin of this design (I am not sure it's wrong, but it sure is unusual) and hopefully Mastercabman will be able to get some more info if it's available.
I agree that it seems unbalanced, and the proportions of the individual elements are a bit off. Even though the brackets which flank the frieze panel in the mantel linked to above are the same orientation as in the cherry room, I read them horizontally, not upside down... if that makes any sense. |
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