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VSM_4

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« on: May 02, 2012, 12:04 AM »

I am working on two projects at the moment, one of them involves: wood, stone, glass, laser cut steel and some hand forged iron.  This is not that.  I was hoping to bang out these doors, and finish up the "cool" project, but the doors are turning out to be much more work than expected.  Not necessarily in a bad way, it just reconfirms the fact that I am absolutely horrible at estimating time.  

2 pairs of doors
 

Clear vertical grain western red cedar.  This wood is pretty, machines very nicely, and it is light weight.  I have to be a bit more careful in order to not dent the wood, but I think the relative lightness of the wood will be nice on a 2"x4'x7' door.  It was fairly easy choosing nice boards, as VG cedar tends to be pretty flat and straight.  For the rails and stiles, I went with 2 pieces of S4S 5/4x6 (5/4x8 for bottom rail) laminated to give me an overall of 2".  2" S4S solid material would have cost almost twice as much, and it was special order.    

 
      
Laminating the boards.  4' for the rails, 8' for the stiles




The night before I started gluing up the boards, I realized that a few more Bowclamps would be helpful.  I email Craig F. that evening, he got back to me first thing the following morning, and I swung by his place to snag a few more.  This is the second time I have been to his shop (first time about 2 years ago).  He is a super nice guy with a pretty nifty product.  
  
I had a buddy help me with the glue up.  The boards were wiped down with acetone, then glued with TB III.  I used a roller to give the boards a generous and even coat.  I suspect that he missed wiping down one set of boards with acetone because the glue did not bond at all.   Shocked   The second I took the clamps off the stack, these two boards popped apart.  They are the only ones didn't bond.  It was very strange, but now has me second guessing the use of TBIII.  I sanded down to bare wood, wiped down with acetone, then reglued.  No problems yet... (knock on cedar)    
 


Straight line rip with the guide rail, then sized with parallel guides.  This is one instance where I wish I had a table saw.  It would have cut my time in half at this point.  I picked up a panter blade, which ripped through the cedar like butter, but the TS55 doesn't cut 2".  It left a freakin' tiny bit of wood on EVERY. SINGLE. CUT.   I cleaned up the edges with another new toy.




Some router fun








The inset panel will be flat 1x material




One area I have been back and forth is the mortise and tenon joint for the rails and stiles.  I initially planned on using a wedged through tenon.  I completed a sample joint, and it was a lot of work.  6 per door, 4 doors...


How deep would an appropriate tenon need to be if it didn't go all the way through?  The stiles are 5" wide, would a 3" deep x 4" high x 5/8" thick tenon be reasonably strong?  Do I suck it up and make the through tenon?  Will the exposed end grain be a problem?    

anyone with good carriage door hardware sources?

Suggestions welcome

-Vinny
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:42 PM by Vindingo » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 12:13 AM »

Vinny:

I fully expect that my first major project with the Domino XL will be a set of double garage doors. I'm really glad you started this thread.

I will totally be winging it other than what I can learn on line and from my associates.


Tom
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jacko9

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 01:19 AM »

Vinny and Tom,

I started a discussion about large mortise and tenon joints on the "Old Woodworking Machines" web site @ http://owwm.org/index.php

One suggestion was to cut a double tenon to minimize wood movement across a wide tenon.

I used this approach in making mahogany doors with a 8" bottom rail and 6" top rail.  I made a half dozen of these doors and there still holding together.

Jack
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 01:33 AM »

Thanks, Jack.

I'm a fan of multiple Domino joints for strength and reliability. I think they're better than one big m&t but can't scientifically prove it - Yet...

With the greater depth possibilities of the XL (or Domisaurus, or whatever), I think some of my upcoming projects will be much more enjoyable and also stronger.

I have doors to rebuild, French doors with pretty heavy glass sandwiches and double-wide garage doors. I'm trying to soak up all the knowledge I can from Forum participants.


Tom
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Rob-GB

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 02:48 AM »

Hi Vinny, with regard to tenons you may like to view an old thread of mine HERE
The end grain from the through tenons pose no more of an issue than the end grain on the stiles, the only thing that springs to mind is that some people think they have swollen and protruding from the stile when in fact it is the stile that has shrunk.
If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong Eek!

Rob.
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 03:12 AM »

Vinyl,

Personally for that size of a door I would stick with your original plan of doing through wedged mortise & tennon.  Hard to tell rom your test piece but I always chisel the wedge shape from each side of the mortise then cut my slot in the tennon about 12mm from the edge.  That way when you tap the wedge in it turns the whole tennon into a big dovetail joint also.  My wedges would normally be 50mm long, 15mm thick (or whatever the width of the mortise is) & taper from 10mm to 0mm.

I would go with your gut & your gut first thought of through m&t.

Woodguy.
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 06:45 AM »

the fein router base looks very similar to the festool. it looks like a nice piece of equipment, where did you find that tool?
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VSM_4

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 11:11 AM »

This project definitely had me thinking about the Dom XL, more in terms of renting one instead of owning one.  I don't think I have ever heard of anyone doing that though. 

Jack - do you have a better link to the topic?  I couldn't find it on that site. 

Rob - Thank you.  I have skimmed the PDF, and will now sit down and read it again before cutting more wood.
If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong Eek!
I don't think I would like the look of pins for these doors... its the "less can go wrong" that is getting me. 
 
I think I will go with the trough tenon.  Is the twin tenon for the bottom and lock rail a necessity? 

Woodguy, the mortise is only minimally wedged maybe a little shy of 1/8" bigger  (the size of the two wedges combined) than the tenon.  I didn't want to go crazy with the wedges.  It looks like I am going to have to play around some more with that before I start cutting into the stiles. 

 
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VSM_4

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 11:17 AM »

the fein router base looks very similar to the festool. it looks like a nice piece of equipment, where did you find that tool?

I got it about 3 years ago, new off Ebay. It was old then, and I don't think Fein makes routers anymore.  It is pretty smooth, plunges nicer than my OF1010 and has tons of power.  The dust collection was made of flimsy plastic and broke, and I haven't been able to source a new one.  Other than that, I have been happy with it.     

One edge guide is from the Fein, and the other is from my OF1010.  I got 24" of  5/16" stainless rod off of Amazon for about $7 and joined the two together to make this sled set up.   
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Rob-GB

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 12:33 PM »

This project definitely had me thinking about the Dom XL, more in terms of renting one instead of owning one.  I don't think I have ever heard of anyone doing that though. 

Jack - do you have a better link to the topic?  I couldn't find it on that site. 

Rob - Thank you.  I have skimmed the PDF, and will now sit down and read it again before cutting more wood.
If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong Eek!
I don't think I would like the look of pins for these doors... its the "less can go wrong" that is getting me.   
I think I will go with the trough tenon.  Is the twin tenon for the bottom and lock rail a necessity? 

Woodguy, the mortise is only minimally wedged maybe a little shy of 1/8" bigger  (the size of the two wedges combined) than the tenon.  I didn't want to go crazy with the wedges.  It looks like I am going to have to play around some more with that before I start cutting into the stiles. 

 

Fox wedging can be a real pain to get right and you really only have one chance at it; as when you assemble the joint it is very hard to get it apart again (if it does not firm up properly or does not close the joint) without damaging the stile.
Pegs or pins can be a design feature, just look at some Greene & Greene or some Morris chairs or  that Scottish chappie raincoat Macintosh's work Grin
The bottom and lock rail tenons don't "have" to be twin tenons, depending on the width of the rails, but the wider the tenon the longer the mortice and the greater the impact will be if rails decide to cup( the more taken out of the stile material has a similar effect): but, if the rails are small enough you could go with slightly larger haunches so they are more like frieze rail tenons allowing the haunches to work in maintaining flatness of the joint/resisting twist.
I think I mentioned in the pdf that I use the same rule for wedge angles as for dovetails, as Alan (woodguy) said by wedging the mortise and tenon joint (using glue) you effectively make it a dovetailed joint that is extremely strong and secure(hence my rule...why change a tried and tested system?  Wink)

I am interested, by the way, why it required that the Cedar needs a mop down with acetone prior to glueing? It is not a timber I use often, but when I have, it recieved pva and p.u. without a problem......but I am a big fan of using Titebond adhesives as they have never let me down....yet! though I don't recall using any TB product on those projects.

ATB Rob.
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VSM_4

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 01:33 PM »

I think I am going to reevaluate the use of drawbore pins.  I don't love the style, but I think they will be much easier.  Maybe I will flip a coin.

Two pins with the strap hinges running between them might look nice.   

I am going to run to the store to see what my dowel material options are.  I have a feeling that cedar dowels may be hard to find. 


From what I have read, the oils in WR cedar (the one that make it rot and insect resistant) don't get along with PVA glue.  I figured a wipe down with acetone couldn't hurt.  Cheap insurance I guess.  As with most of the things I have read on the web, this is only based on anecdotal evidence.  As far as why that one set of boards didn't take, it was either too much acetone, or none.  50-50 shot at that one.   


 
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rdesigns

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 04:25 PM »

I would hesitate to use thru M&T on exterior doors due to exposed end grain being more prone to absorb moisture. The wetting/drying cycles would compress the fibers of the tenon over time and result in loosening. Better to keep the tenons fully housed in their mortises.

FWIW, I have had equally good success with either loose tenons that are glued into mating mortises on both rails and stiles, or tenons formed on the rail ends. Sometimes loose tenons are quicker and easier to make, and they are every bit as strong as the other kind. In fact, you can use a  hardwood like oak for the loose tenons, which would be even stronger than a cedar tenon.
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 04:58 PM »

http://www.realcarriagedoors.com/hardware-cat.php?page=sliding-hw

Here's one source of hardware for you. I haven't used them though they seem to have quite a selection.
HTH        Big Grin
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 05:12 PM »

Very cool project. I am a bit surprised about that first glue joint failure.... I have never cleaned wood with anything but a dry rag before gluing using titebond... makes me wonder if I should have been cleaning with acetone too.... have you considered the opposite could have occured, as in way too much acetone was in there and somehow didn't fully dry away?


Would you mind explaining what "bowl clamps" are? I have tried several google and FOG searched but cannot find them. I have seen something that looks like those weird T groove pieces of wood in other threads before. Looks like some kind of bowed board for clamping?
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 05:23 PM »

It's amazing to see what some people can do with just powertools, i have made a few cedar gates now with the dom XL,
I am more and more moving over to custom width tenons because 1 or 2 big tenons goes faster during assembly than 4 or more regular dominos, i had some problems with some complex gates where i had to glue and assemble something like 20 tenons  before the glue settled and one time i almost didn't succeed.
Anyway the last cedar gate i made was so crazy that i had to take pics during construction, it's over 4 meters long (14 feet!)



Vinny, Have you thought of adding diagonal braces to keep the doors square? I almost don't dare making anything without them. And on cedar i always use polyurethane glue because it's usually quite wet inside and any other glue will not dry on it.
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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 05:28 PM »

thats lookin nice timothy!! got some more pictures? im up for a similar project in the next few weeks.. so really
wanna see some more Cheesy..    Gotta make a garden gate & matching fences left and right for a walktrough in a
garden.. making it outta bankirai..  using the Domino XL Cheesy
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D 36 HW RS craftsman cleaning kit - D27/D36 portable cleaning kit - RO90 & DTS 400 abrasive sys - carpenter sys - Fein supercut sys - homemade drills&drivers sys - nailguns sys5 - SYS-ToolBox1 x 2 - SYS-ToolBox2 x 2 - Sys-StorageBox - SYS-CART RB-SYS

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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 05:34 PM »

Vinny.. I love the doors, really good looking..   the thing i would do tho: i would make a beveled edge of like 3 degrees on the top edge of all the vertical pieces..
But that's just because i live in a very wet country Tongue.. When the edge is flat, water is going to creep inside the door/panel/tenon..

Gr Rick
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ALLREADY GOT: MFT/3 - Domino XL DF 700 - Domino DF 500Q set - CS70 precisio - Kapex 120 EB set - TS 55 REBQ - TS 55 EBQ  - EHL 65EQ - PS 300 EQ - OF 2200 EB Set - OF 1010 EBQ - OFK 500Q R3 - CTL 26 E - CTL 26 SD E/A - CTL Midi - BS 75 e-set - DTS 400 EQ - ROTEX 90 EQ - CXS Li 1,5 set - CMS OF 2200 - VS 600 -FS PA - FS SYS/2 - FS 1400/2 x2 - FS 1400/2 LR32 - FS 2700/2 - FS 1080/2 (mft/3) - FS 800/2 - FS Bag - OF-FH 2200

D 36 HW RS craftsman cleaning kit - D27/D36 portable cleaning kit - RO90 & DTS 400 abrasive sys - carpenter sys - Fein supercut sys - homemade drills&drivers sys - nailguns sys5 - SYS-ToolBox1 x 2 - SYS-ToolBox2 x 2 - Sys-StorageBox - SYS-CART RB-SYS

WORKIN' REALLY HARD FOR: ETS 150/3 - ROTEX 150 - one extra DTS 400, PS 420 eq, centrotec sys, T15+3
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 05:42 PM »

Doors look great.
Not necessarily in a bad way, it just reconfirms the fact that I am absolutely horrible at estimating time. 

Join the club, or should I say welcome to the club. When ever the topic of pricing comes up, I tell myself to remain calm. Usually works, but sometimes my temper gets the best of me I say something stupid.

I suspect that he missed wiping down one set of boards with acetone because the glue did not bond at all.   Shocked  The second I took the clamps off the stack, these two boards popped apart.  They are the only ones didn't bond.  It was very strange, but now has me second guessing the use of TBIII. 

I am surprised that the boards didn't glue up properly. I have used TBIII on Red Cedar and had no problem with it. All I did was wipe off the dust and pour the glue on. From the pattern left by the dried glue it looks like there was glue only on one side, but that's irrelevant at this point.
Nice looking drawing btw.
Thanks for posting.
Tim
 
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VSM_4

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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 09:01 PM »

http://www.realcarriagedoors.com/hardware-cat.php?page=sliding-hw

Here's one source of hardware for you. I haven't used them though they seem to have quite a selection.
HTH        Big Grin


That website has been my main source of inspiration.  Lots of good stuff, it doesn't seem like they will sell you their hardware without the door.  It's worth checking out if anyone is looking to build something similar.

Would you mind explaining what "bowl clamps" are? I have tried several google and FOG searched but cannot find them. I have seen something that looks like those weird T groove pieces of wood in other threads before. Looks like some kind of bowed board for clamping?

That was a typo on my part... Bow clamps, not bowl.  http://www.bowclamp.com/index.html  They are pretty much what you see, a bowed board for clamping.  The bow or arc is consistent though, and flattens out across the length of the piece.  Simple and effective, and they can replace some of the need for a ton of clamps. 

Anyway the last cedar gate i made was so crazy that i had to take pics during construction, it's over 4 meters long (14 feet!)

Vinny, Have you thought of adding diagonal braces to keep the doors square? I almost don't dare making anything without them. And on cedar i always use polyurethane glue because it's usually quite wet inside and any other glue will not dry on it.

I'd love to see more photos of that gate with the truss frame. 

I figured at a little less than 4', I can get away with no diagonal braces based on the photos I have seen. 

Rick - thanks for the tip. 

Doors look great.

I am surprised that the boards didn't glue up properly. I have used TBIII on Red Cedar and had no problem with it. All I did was wipe off the dust and pour the glue on. From the pattern left by the dried glue it looks like there was glue only on one side, but that's irrelevant at this point.
Nice looking drawing btw.
Thanks for posting.
Tim
 


Thanks Tim,  the glue was only on one side, but so were the others.  I may have been stingy with that one though.  I'm hoping it was a fluke. I went through and tried to pull all of the other boards apart, and so far they have been fine.  I will be more generous with the glue I think. 

the drawing is a simple one.  I used to be a CAD/modeling ninja, but have let those skills slide in favor of manual ones.   

 
 
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 09:05 PM »

no wood shop today, just a quick test to see how the pins would look.  These are 3/4" oak, but I found someone who could make me 3/4" cedar dowels.  I am not sure I am sold on the benefits vs time on of the pin offset. I'm thinking stopped mortise with a straight pin. 




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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 09:10 PM »

Vinny,  When I've glued up stack of boards like this, I made sure to use a lot of glue and placed a layer of wax paper between each set to avoid gluing the wrong combination.

It also looks like the glue joint was starved and perhaps it might have skimmed over before you got the clamp pressure on the stack.

I emailed Tidebond from a link on there web site asking about joining rosewood and got a detailed response from one of their technical specialists who advised that I clean the joint with acetone until there was no color coming off on the rags and then to use Tidebond II Extend clamping a minimum of 24 hours and not stressing the joint for a few days.

I realize that Western Red Cedar has much different properties than rosewood but, you might ask them to see what adhesive they might recommend.

Jack
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 11:55 PM »

I think cedar needs a long tenon 3 to 3.5 " but if the joint is tight fitting titebond 2 will work fine. I would not do a through tenon because of the issues already mentioned. I don't think draw pins are necessary if you get a good glue joint. I cut the mortise with a lock mortiser & cut my tenons on a sliding table on a shaper with two blades shimmed apart until the tenon is a good interference fit. ( tap together & apart with a rubber mallet) I haunch the tenon on the bottom rail so the tenon is about 6.5" wide.
Gerry


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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 10:55 AM »

thanks for the bowclamp tip.


Regarding your purchasing of dowels... I used a little trick to make my own dowels recently. Its probably not anything special, and you probably already know it but here goes anyways...

I had a roundover bit of ~9.5mm radius. I planed some stock to 19mm. Then I just ran the pieces over the router table on all 4 sides. I was only dowelling the last 4-5 inches so I still had square bar to keep on the table for better support, but this worked really nicely for me. 

To get them to fit in the 3/4" holes I just had to wrap each dowl in sandpaper and give 2-3 turns it then they plopped right in.
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 10:58 AM »

I cut the mortise with a lock mortiser

I love that PC 513. I may have to break down and get one. I wish they sold them without the router, I have enough PC routers sitting around not earning their keep. Lovely looking shop BTW.
Tim
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 11:02 AM »

thanks for the bowclamp tip.


Regarding your purchasing of dowels... I used a little trick to make my own dowels recently. Its probably not anything special, and you probably already know it but here goes anyways...

I had a roundover bit of ~9.5mm radius. I planed some stock to 19mm. Then I just ran the pieces over the router table on all 4 sides. I was only dowelling the last 4-5 inches so I still had square bar to keep on the table for better support, but this worked really nicely for me. 

To get them to fit in the 3/4" holes I just had to wrap each dowel in sandpaper and give 2-3 turns it then they plopped right in.

LN also makes a dowel plate. Handy for making specialty wood (other than maple) dowels.
Tim
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Oldwood

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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 12:28 PM »

I cut the mortise with a lock mortiser

I love that PC 513. I may have to break down and get one. I wish they sold them without the router, I have enough PC routers sitting around not earning their keep. Lovely looking shop BTW.
Tim

Hi Tim,

The first time I used the 513 to cut a mortise I was gob smacked at how fast it was. The mortises are also always exactly the same width & dead centered on the door. I have attached a pic of the shaper setup. It takes a while to setup but you can turn out tenons up to 3.75" long that are all exactly the same size. I have an extra 513 in as new condition I bought for a backup when I was building doors full time.........if you weren't on the other end of the country you could stop by & take a look at it Tongue Out The only downside I see with it is that .625" is the smallest cutter it will take.

Gerry

Gerry


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ictusbrucks

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Location: Raleigh NC
Member Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 25


« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 05:10 PM »

I did not realize you could put saw blades on a shaper spindle.   I have a 1.25" spindle on mine; are there any blades with an arbor that size or would it require getting a 1" spindle?

That LN dowel plate is pretty nifty. Might have to pick one up.
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Alan m

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Location: Ireland
Member Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3112



« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 06:07 PM »

guido huin has a video making dowels with the cms router. (i know , NAINA) but any router would work.
he drilled 2 holes on a piece of timber and clamped it over the bit. one hole allows the bit to come up into the second hole.
the second hole is the size of the square stock (any regular shape would do) . the square stock can rotate in the round hole and is fed into the cutter . the height of the cutter sets the dowel diameter.
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now
ts 55+2 1400 rails+ 1 lr32 1400 rail, domino+assortment systainer+ domiplate, ct 22 with boom arm+home made thien baffel, lr32 set, rotex 150, home made MFT,home made work center, 6 t locs for other tools, of2000 , ro 90, mft 800, trion , ls 130
wish list
of 1400, MFT 3,, even more t locs for other tools


"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Oldwood

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Location: Alberta, Canada
Member Since: Oct 2009
Posts: 157

Alberta, Canada


« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2012, 05:18 PM »

I did not realize you could put saw blades on a shaper spindle.   I have a 1.25" spindle on mine; are there any blades with an arbor that size or would it require getting a 1" spindle?

That LN dowel plate is pretty nifty. Might have to pick one up.

Hi,

I had those blades bored to 1.25" & I use a larger washer top, bottom & middle to help stabilize them a bit more. I run them at 3600 rpm which is well below the max rpm for those blades. I would talk to your saw blade supplier to get a blade that is appropriate for the cut. It is more of a fine rip blade than a crosscut.

Gerry
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Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius
Kevin Stricker

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Location: UNITED STATES (US)
Member Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 454


« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2012, 09:34 AM »

Those look like they are going to be real nice doors.  I too have glued up tons of WR Cedar with no problems.  If I was in your shoes I would be extremely concerned about the integrity of the other glue ups.  WR Cedar sucks up the glue like crazy, I would want to see gobs of squeeze out.

 I also would not feel OK about using the Bessy Revo's in that application as I do not think they have anywhere near the clamping pressure required.  My guess is that the ones that seperated were in the middle of the bottom stack.  If that is the case then I would be testing those first.  Consider cutting off the ends of your stiles, and running them on edge through your table saw.  Cut 1/2 way through the joint and see if you can seperate the other half with a flatbar. 

I'd also check the how old the TBIII is, it is in the printed code on the bottle.  TB recommends that their glues only are used for structural joints up to 1 year after being manufactured.  I don't know if this is just them trying to sell more glue or a chemical change in the glue.  Anyways that is why companies like Rockler blow out their TB from time to time, and is something that most people don't even know is a concern.

I hope my concerns are unjustified and it was just a fluke.  Would love to see those doors when they are done. 
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