I am working on two projects at the moment, one of them involves: wood, stone, glass, laser cut steel and some hand forged iron.  This is not that.  I was hoping to bang out these doors, and finish up the "cool" project, but the doors are turning out to be much more work than expected.  Not necessarily in a bad way, it just reconfirms the fact that I am absolutely horrible at estimating time.  

2 pairs of doors
 

Clear vertical grain western red cedar.  This wood is pretty, machines very nicely, and it is light weight.  I have to be a bit more careful in order to not dent the wood, but I think the relative lightness of the wood will be nice on a 2"x4'x7' door.  It was fairly easy choosing nice boards, as VG cedar tends to be pretty flat and straight.  For the rails and stiles, I went with 2 pieces of S4S 5/4x6 (5/4x8 for bottom rail) laminated to give me an overall of 2".  2" S4S solid material would have cost almost twice as much, and it was special order.    

 
      
Laminating the boards.  4' for the rails, 8' for the stiles




The night before I started gluing up the boards, I realized that a few more Bowclamps would be helpful.  I email Craig F. that evening, he got back to me first thing the following morning, and I swung by his place to snag a few more.  This is the second time I have been to his shop (first time about 2 years ago).  He is a super nice guy with a pretty nifty product.  
  
I had a buddy help me with the glue up.  The boards were wiped down with acetone, then glued with TB III.  I used a roller to give the boards a generous and even coat.  I suspect that he missed wiping down one set of boards with acetone because the glue did not bond at all.     The second I took the clamps off the stack, these two boards popped apart.  They are the only ones didn't bond.  It was very strange, but now has me second guessing the use of TBIII.  I sanded down to bare wood, wiped down with acetone, then reglued.  No problems yet... (knock on cedar)    
 


Straight line rip with the guide rail, then sized with parallel guides.  This is one instance where I wish I had a table saw.  It would have cut my time in half at this point.  I picked up a panter blade, which ripped through the cedar like butter, but the TS55 doesn't cut 2".  It left a freakin' tiny bit of wood on EVERY. SINGLE. CUT.   I cleaned up the edges with another new toy.




Some router fun








The inset panel will be flat 1x material




One area I have been back and forth is the mortise and tenon joint for the rails and stiles.  I initially planned on using a wedged through tenon.  I completed a sample joint, and it was a lot of work.  6 per door, 4 doors...


How deep would an appropriate tenon need to be if it didn't go all the way through?  The stiles are 5" wide, would a 3" deep x 4" high x 5/8" thick tenon be reasonably strong?  Do I suck it up and make the through tenon?  Will the exposed end grain be a problem?    

anyone with good carriage door hardware sources?

Suggestions welcome

-Vinny

Vinny and Tom,

I started a discussion about large mortise and tenon joints on the "Old Woodworking Machines" web site @ http://owwm.org/index.php

One suggestion was to cut a double tenon to minimize wood movement across a wide tenon.

I used this approach in making mahogany doors with a 8" bottom rail and 6" top rail.  I made a half dozen of these doors and there still holding together.

Jack

Hi Vinny, with regard to tenons you may like to view an old thread of mine HERE
The end grain from the through tenons pose no more of an issue than the end grain on the stiles, the only thing that springs to mind is that some people think they have swollen and protruding from the stile when in fact it is the stile that has shrunk.
If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong

Rob.

the fein router base looks very similar to the festool. it looks like a nice piece of equipment, where did you find that tool?

I got it about 3 years ago, new off Ebay. It was old then, and I don't think Fein makes routers anymore.  It is pretty smooth, plunges nicer than my OF1010 and has tons of power.  The dust collection was made of flimsy plastic and broke, and I haven't been able to source a new one.  Other than that, I have been happy with it.     

One edge guide is from the Fein, and the other is from my OF1010.  I got 24" of  5/16" stainless rod off of Amazon for about $7 and joined the two together to make this sled set up.   

I think I am going to reevaluate the use of drawbore pins.  I don't love the style, but I think they will be much easier.  Maybe I will flip a coin.

Two pins with the strap hinges running between them might look nice.   

I am going to run to the store to see what my dowel material options are.  I have a feeling that cedar dowels may be hard to find. 


From what I have read, the oils in WR cedar (the one that make it rot and insect resistant) don't get along with PVA glue.  I figured a wipe down with acetone couldn't hurt.  Cheap insurance I guess.  As with most of the things I have read on the web, this is only based on anecdotal evidence.  As far as why that one set of boards didn't take, it was either too much acetone, or none.  50-50 shot at that one.   


 

http://www.realcarriagedoors.com/hardware-cat.php?page=sliding-hw

Here's one source of hardware for you. I haven't used them though they seem to have quite a selection.
HTH       

It's amazing to see what some people can do with just powertools, i have made a few cedar gates now with the dom XL,
I am more and more moving over to custom width tenons because 1 or 2 big tenons goes faster during assembly than 4 or more regular dominos, i had some problems with some complex gates where i had to glue and assemble something like 20 tenons  before the glue settled and one time i almost didn't succeed.
Anyway the last cedar gate i made was so crazy that i had to take pics during construction, it's over 4 meters long (14 feet!)



Vinny, Have you thought of adding diagonal braces to keep the doors square? I almost don't dare making anything without them. And on cedar i always use polyurethane glue because it's usually quite wet inside and any other glue will not dry on it.

Vinny.. I love the doors, really good looking..   the thing i would do tho: i would make a beveled edge of like 3 degrees on the top edge of all the vertical pieces..
But that's just because i live in a very wet country .. When the edge is flat, water is going to creep inside the door/panel/tenon..

Gr Rick

That website has been my main source of inspiration.  Lots of good stuff, it doesn't seem like they will sell you their hardware without the door.  It's worth checking out if anyone is looking to build something similar.


That was a typo on my part... Bow clamps, not bowl.  http://www.bowclamp.com/index.html  They are pretty much what you see, a bowed board for clamping.  The bow or arc is consistent though, and flattens out across the length of the piece.  Simple and effective, and they can replace some of the need for a ton of clamps. 


I'd love to see more photos of that gate with the truss frame. 

I figured at a little less than 4', I can get away with no diagonal braces based on the photos I have seen. 

Rick - thanks for the tip. 



Thanks Tim,  the glue was only on one side, but so were the others.  I may have been stingy with that one though.  I'm hoping it was a fluke. I went through and tried to pull all of the other boards apart, and so far they have been fine.  I will be more generous with the glue I think. 

the drawing is a simple one.  I used to be a CAD/modeling ninja, but have let those skills slide in favor of manual ones.   

 
 

Vinny,  When I've glued up stack of boards like this, I made sure to use a lot of glue and placed a layer of wax paper between each set to avoid gluing the wrong combination.

It also looks like the glue joint was starved and perhaps it might have skimmed over before you got the clamp pressure on the stack.

I emailed Tidebond from a link on there web site asking about joining rosewood and got a detailed response from one of their technical specialists who advised that I clean the joint with acetone until there was no color coming off on the rags and then to use Tidebond II Extend clamping a minimum of 24 hours and not stressing the joint for a few days.

I realize that Western Red Cedar has much different properties than rosewood but, you might ask them to see what adhesive they might recommend.

Jack

thanks for the bowclamp tip.


Regarding your purchasing of dowels... I used a little trick to make my own dowels recently. Its probably not anything special, and you probably already know it but here goes anyways...

I had a roundover bit of ~9.5mm radius. I planed some stock to 19mm. Then I just ran the pieces over the router table on all 4 sides. I was only dowelling the last 4-5 inches so I still had square bar to keep on the table for better support, but this worked really nicely for me. 

To get them to fit in the 3/4" holes I just had to wrap each dowl in sandpaper and give 2-3 turns it then they plopped right in.

LN also makes a dowel plate. Handy for making specialty wood (other than maple) dowels.
Tim

I did not realize you could put saw blades on a shaper spindle.   I have a 1.25" spindle on mine; are there any blades with an arbor that size or would it require getting a 1" spindle?

That LN dowel plate is pretty nifty. Might have to pick one up.

Hi,

I had those blades bored to 1.25" & I use a larger washer top, bottom & middle to help stabilize them a bit more. I run them at 3600 rpm which is well below the max rpm for those blades. I would talk to your saw blade supplier to get a blade that is appropriate for the cut. It is more of a fine rip blade than a crosscut.

Gerry

Jack,

I emailed Titebond, this was their response:

With Cedar, oils and/or resins can sometimes migrate to the surface. Titebond III is a water based wood glue and it counts on the wood absorbing the moisture/water from the glue for bonding. When this happens, the wood also pulls some of the adhesive down into the pores, and this is part of the reason for the tenacious bond strength. The fix to the surface oils/resins is easy. Before applying the Titebond III, wipe down the bonding area with a rag and the solvent Acetone. If there are any oils/resins you will see them on the rag. Then proceed to apply your glue and everything will work as designed.
Thanks,
Bee
 
Bee Miller
Technical Service Representative
Construction Products Division
Franklin International
2020 Bruck St.
Columbus, OH 43207



What clamps would you recommend?  The Revo's are supposed to have 1500lbs of clamping pressure, which is more than 3/4" pipe clamps.   

Those two boards were actually on the outside next to the clamp, which makes me think that because of that location, it was the first one with glue (most likely too little glue) and it sat for the longest without getting any pressure.

I'm not sure that the stress is worth what I saved by not buying the thicker stock to begin with.   

Hey Vinny, sorry for the hijack to your great thread, those doors are going to be amazing.  I love working with Cedar, I just wish it loved me as much!  Keep posting pics!

Rob, thanks for the tips. 

Regarding this first one, I was intending on doing as you mentioned by finishing the edges and grooves, but was thinking of taking it one step further.  Because the groove is in the middle of the glue joint, I was thinking of putting a bead of silicone in the groove (before glue up) and smoothing it over the glue joint. 

Do you think this is overkill?  If there are no open gaps in the glue joint of the groove, will these benefit me in any way?  I am a bit leery of the silicone because it can make a mess and ruin my finish.   

Vinny, I would avoid silicone since it's almost impossible to clean it out if you get it on a glue surface.

Ya, eh?

good job it likes damp if theres a pond involved

Haven't touched the doors in a month.  I guess you could say that life happens...

Back in the shop today.  I hope to have photos of the completed project soon! 

The wood needed some time to get acclimated to the climate anyway 

a couple new photos



mock-up of mullion design. 


Definitely not going for through tenons, still on the fence about the pins.  If anything they will be on the back side. 

Latest obsession when not cutting wood:

 

Good looking joinery Vinny.  That double haunched tenon should hold and the pins will give you added peace of mind.

Jack

Looking good Vinny, my personal opinion from 28 years in the trade is go with draw bore pegs on the rails into stiles even if you opt out on the muntins. Make them through rather than stopped, there is a tendancy to knock them in so hard as to cause the opposite side to "blow" out, it looks messy and a partial draw bore is less effective.

On your other interest... some people I paddle with have stickers....................."Paddle faster! I hear banjo's" 

Look forward to seeing final pics buddy. 

Rob.

Decided on the hardware today.  It's being custom made by a blacksmith in CT- should be fun.  Nothing off the shelf spoke to me, and it all seemed to be thin stamped steel, or "hand forged look" cast iron.  


half lap
 



The door (progress so far) on the left was built today.  I think with the XL, I could bang out a door a day at a leisurely pace.  


The next two doors will be built at the same time to speed up the process.  I still need to figure out gluing logistics, as well as trying to figure out where to store them over the next 4 weeks while waiting for hardware to be made.  

A nice surprise...  An old contractor came to the office yesterday and saw me working in the shop.  We got to talking and he mentioned that he had an old bandsaw.  He invited me over to take a look at it, but warned me that it was old when he got it 30 years ago. When he purchased his house, the previous/original owner (a 96 year old architect), left it in the garage. He gave it to me for $0.00 and wished me many years of happy woodworking!

Untouched for 30 years, I plugged it in and it runs as smooth as butter... of course it needs new tires and blades, but sweet nonetheless.      

1948 Delta 28-205  14" bandsaw
       



BTW - this is the second free bandsaw I have received.  

Over in the uk we have Kirkpatrick hardware which is good quality old looking stuff

They also do a ball bearing hinge in black which is good as I hate to see black handles etc then shiny SS hinges on stuff

Looking very good sir. The design fits the building style nicely too. 

Rob.

Random update... I never put up final photos!



the ugly flood light has since been switched


my mother made the stained glass

I may have missed it but whats the stain product?

I'm guessing its penofin or other easily recoatable wearing finish.

Awesome work Vinny, they look great.  

That is stunning!


Tom

Looks great.
I bet it's nice to be done.

Tim

Worth the wait!  Really outstanding uptick from old to new!

Neil

easily recoatable... Ha!  I went with Sikkens Cetol.  The painted who did the house painted the fascia and soffits with it so that's what I used.  The more I looked into it, the more I realized that it will be a huge PIA to refinish. 

When the doors grey out and get weather, I will just call them rustic.