Vindingo
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Location: North Jersey Member Since: Jan 2009
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2012, 10:48 AM » |
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Jack, I emailed Titebond, this was their response: With Cedar, oils and/or resins can sometimes migrate to the surface. Titebond III is a water based wood glue and it counts on the wood absorbing the moisture/water from the glue for bonding. When this happens, the wood also pulls some of the adhesive down into the pores, and this is part of the reason for the tenacious bond strength. The fix to the surface oils/resins is easy. Before applying the Titebond III, wipe down the bonding area with a rag and the solvent Acetone. If there are any oils/resins you will see them on the rag. Then proceed to apply your glue and everything will work as designed.
Thanks,
Bee
Bee Miller
Technical Service Representative
Construction Products Division
Franklin International
2020 Bruck St.
Columbus, OH 43207 I also would not feel OK about using the Bessy Revo's in that application as I do not think they have anywhere near the clamping pressure required. My guess is that the ones that seperated were in the middle of the bottom stack. If that is the case then I would be testing those first.
What clamps would you recommend? The Revo's are supposed to have 1500lbs of clamping pressure, which is more than 3/4" pipe clamps. Those two boards were actually on the outside next to the clamp, which makes me think that because of that location, it was the first one with glue (most likely too little glue) and it sat for the longest without getting any pressure. I'm not sure that the stress is worth what I saved by not buying the thicker stock to begin with. |
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Ken Nagrod
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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2012, 11:28 AM » |
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Those look like they are going to be real nice doors. I too have glued up tons of WR Cedar with no problems. If I was in your shoes I would be extremely concerned about the integrity of the other glue ups. WR Cedar sucks up the glue like crazy, I would want to see gobs of squeeze out.
I also would not feel OK about using the Bessy Revo's in that application as I do not think they have anywhere near the clamping pressure required. My guess is that the ones that seperated were in the middle of the bottom stack. If that is the case then I would be testing those first. Consider cutting off the ends of your stiles, and running them on edge through your table saw. Cut 1/2 way through the joint and see if you can seperate the other half with a flatbar.
I'd also check the how old the TBIII is, it is in the printed code on the bottle. TB recommends that their glues only are used for structural joints up to 1 year after being manufactured. I don't know if this is just them trying to sell more glue or a chemical change in the glue. Anyways that is why companies like Rockler blow out their TB from time to time, and is something that most people don't even know is a concern.
I hope my concerns are unjustified and it was just a fluke. Would love to see those doors when they are done.
Yeah, where is this coming from? They have more clamping pressure than pipe clamps and more even clamping pressure. You don't need more than around 200psi of clamping pressure for the glue. Overclamping is just as bad as underclamping. |
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Kevin Stricker
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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2012, 08:21 PM » |
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Hey Vinny, sorry for the hijack to your great thread, those doors are going to be amazing. I love working with Cedar, I just wish it loved me as much! Keep posting pics!
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 12:25 AM by Kevin Stricker »
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Rob-GB
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2012, 01:54 AM » |
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Hi Vinny, Just a couple of pointers, as if you need them  , to clarify what I'd do as a matter of best practice on my clients projects: 1) Pre coat panel edges and panel recieving grooves (dado's?) with finishing product; to stop moisture ingress and to prevent panels from being glued in, they need to be able to move naturally. 2) Use whatever clamps you have to assemble the doors and ensure it remains square and flat, over-tightening clamps may cause the rail ends to crush into the stile fibres ( I have seen it happen on softwood doors assembled by over eager apprentices and by me when one rail was slightly longer than it ought to be  but time is money!  ) 3) Stick with the draw bore technique rather than straight bore, this will pull the joint up tight and once pegged the clamps can be removed and used on the next one, speeds the job along too. 4) Cut as few corners as possible, re-making a job will lose one much more time than you save! ( It's not like in Autocad where when the project changes you get to re-use some of the old work, which is just as well with my cad speed ) 5) Log each job's time and use that to assist in the next estimate Looking forward to your finished project, Rob. |
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Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ
"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke
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Vindingo
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2012, 12:13 PM » |
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1) Pre coat panel edges and panel recieving grooves (dado's?) with finishing product; to stop moisture ingress and to prevent panels from being glued in, they need to be able to move naturally.
Rob, thanks for the tips. Regarding this first one, I was intending on doing as you mentioned by finishing the edges and grooves, but was thinking of taking it one step further. Because the groove is in the middle of the glue joint, I was thinking of putting a bead of silicone in the groove (before glue up) and smoothing it over the glue joint. Do you think this is overkill? If there are no open gaps in the glue joint of the groove, will these benefit me in any way? I am a bit leery of the silicone because it can make a mess and ruin my finish. |
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Rob-GB
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2012, 10:09 PM » |
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Rob, thanks for the tips.
Regarding this first one, I was intending on doing as you mentioned by finishing the edges and grooves, but was thinking of taking it one step further. Because the groove is in the middle of the glue joint, I was thinking of putting a bead of silicone in the groove (before glue up) and smoothing it over the glue joint.
Do you think this is overkill? If there are no open gaps in the glue joint of the groove, will these benefit me in any way? I am a bit leery of the silicone because it can make a mess and ruin my finish.
You are welcome. I would stay away from the silicone, never done it that way, I just rely on the glue to do the job. Rob. |
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Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ
"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke
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jacko9
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2012, 10:23 PM » |
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Vinny, I would avoid silicone since it's almost impossible to clean it out if you get it on a glue surface.
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Rob-GB
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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2012, 11:15 AM » |
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Hey Vinny, how did the project work out for you? It would be interesting to know what you decided to do.
Rob.
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Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ
"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke
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Tim Raleigh
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2012, 02:07 PM » |
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Hey Vinny, how did the project work out for you? It would be interesting to know what you decided to do.
Ya, eh?  |
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jmbfestool
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2012, 03:02 PM » |
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When I started using cedar I did some research and found out about its oils etc. so got a little worried about glueing it up soooo decided to do some tests before hand. I found PVA doesn't bond western red cedar very well. I found it wasn't very strong it never failed like yours but I could easily break the joint apart with out any wood breaking off that's glueing with the grain and end grain to end grain. so I never use PVA with western red cedar any more. I use PU (polyeruthane) I have done a few test with good results another good thing about PU it likes Damp wood and cedar I have worked on can sometimes be slightly damp. I did some more research cus even thought the Regular PU I use does hold well especially glueing two pieces togetther with the grain. Regular PU doesn't work as well as I like it to on end grain to end grain I found this Contruction PU which is brilliant and holds extremely well even end grain also it does NOT require pressure even though I still recommend it! Down side it has a extreme fast cure time!  Jmb |
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« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 04:07 PM by jmbfestool »
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Deansocial
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Location: derbyshire, uk Member Since: Mar 2010
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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2012, 03:10 PM » |
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When I started using cedar I did so e research and found out about its oils etc. so got a little worried about glueing it up soooo decided to do some test before hand. I found PVA doesn't pond western red cedar very well. I found it wasn't very strong it never failed like yours but I could easily break the joint apart with out any wood breaking off that's glueing with the grain and end grain to end grain. so I never use PVA with western red cedar any more. I use PU (polyeruthane) I have done a few test with good results another good thing about PU it likes Damp wood and cedar I have worked on can sometimes be slightly damp. I did some more research cus even thought the Regular PU I use does hold well especially glueing two pieces togetther with the grain. Regular PU doesn't work as well as I like it to on end grain to end grain I found this Contruction PU which is brilliant and holds extremely well even end grain also it does NOT require pressure even though I still recommend it! Down side it has a extreme fast cure time! Jmb good job it likes damp if theres a pond involved |
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jmbfestool
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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2012, 04:08 PM » |
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When I started using cedar I did so e research and found out about its oils etc. so got a little worried about glueing it up soooo decided to do some test before hand. I found PVA doesn't pond western red cedar very well. I found it wasn't very strong it never failed like yours but I could easily break the joint apart with out any wood breaking off that's glueing with the grain and end grain to end grain. so I never use PVA with western red cedar any more. I use PU (polyeruthane) I have done a few test with good results another good thing about PU it likes Damp wood and cedar I have worked on can sometimes be slightly damp. I did some more research cus even thought the Regular PU I use does hold well especially glueing two pieces togetther with the grain. Regular PU doesn't work as well as I like it to on end grain to end grain I found this Contruction PU which is brilliant and holds extremely well even end grain also it does NOT require pressure even though I still recommend it! Down side it has a extreme fast cure time! Jmb good job it likes damp if theres a pond involved  |
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Vindingo
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2012, 02:36 PM » |
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Hey Vinny, how did the project work out for you? It would be interesting to know what you decided to do.
Rob.
Ya, eh? Haven't touched the doors in a month. I guess you could say that life happens... Back in the shop today. I hope to have photos of the completed project soon! The wood needed some time to get acclimated to the climate anyway  |
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Rob-GB
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2012, 02:35 PM » |
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Haven't touched the doors in a month. I guess you could say that life happens... (1)Back in the shop today. I hope to have photos of the completed project soon! (2)The wood needed some time to get acclimated to the climate anyway (3) Aint that the truth! (2) Yay!!  (3) I use that one sometimes too! Good to hear back from you. Rob. |
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Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ
"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke
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Vindingo
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2012, 09:30 PM » |
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a couple new photos  mock-up of mullion design.  Definitely not going for through tenons, still on the fence about the pins. If anything they will be on the back side. Latest obsession when not cutting wood:  |
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Tom Bellemare
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Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 09:51 PM » |
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Making or playing?
Tom
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jacko9
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2012, 10:32 PM » |
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Good looking joinery Vinny. That double haunched tenon should hold and the pins will give you added peace of mind.
Jack
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Tim Raleigh
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« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2012, 12:42 PM » |
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Looks good. Love the look of that red cedar. Are you planning on true divided lites or simulated? Banjo, love banjo music.
Tim |
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Rob-GB
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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2012, 01:49 PM » |
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Looking good Vinny, my personal opinion from 28 years in the trade is go with draw bore pegs on the rails into stiles even if you opt out on the muntins. Make them through rather than stopped, there is a tendancy to knock them in so hard as to cause the opposite side to "blow" out, it looks messy and a partial draw bore is less effective. On your other interest... some people I paddle with have stickers....................."Paddle faster! I hear banjo's"   Look forward to seeing final pics buddy. Rob. |
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Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ
"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke
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Vindingo
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 10:49 PM » |
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Making or playing?
Tom
playing... or at least trying to teach myself Looks good.
Love the look of that red cedar.
Are you planning on true divided lites or simulated?
Banjo, love banjo music.
Tim
Thanks. going with true divided lites. The muntins will have a lap joint, then route in a rabbet from the back. I saw Steve Martin play banjo last summer, he is a great performer. Looking good Vinny, my personal opinion from 28 years in the trade is go with draw bore pegs on the rails into stiles even if you opt out on the muntins. Make them through rather than stopped, there is a tendancy to knock them in so hard as to cause the opposite side to "blow" out, it looks messy and a partial draw bore is less effective. On your other interest... some people I paddle with have stickers....................."Paddle faster! I hear banjo's" Look forward to seeing final pics buddy. Rob. I'll keep that in mind, if I do go that route. I secretly think it will help me sleep better at night if I do draw bore pegs, but I just don't love how it looks. I love that sticker! I'm going to buy one now |
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Vindingo
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2012, 08:16 PM » |
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Decided on the hardware today. It's being custom made by a blacksmith in CT- should be fun. Nothing off the shelf spoke to me, and it all seemed to be thin stamped steel, or "hand forged look" cast iron.  half lap   The door (progress so far) on the left was built today. I think with the XL, I could bang out a door a day at a leisurely pace.  The next two doors will be built at the same time to speed up the process. I still need to figure out gluing logistics, as well as trying to figure out where to store them over the next 4 weeks while waiting for hardware to be made. A nice surprise... An old contractor came to the office yesterday and saw me working in the shop. We got to talking and he mentioned that he had an old bandsaw. He invited me over to take a look at it, but warned me that it was old when he got it 30 years ago. When he purchased his house, the previous/original owner (a 96 year old architect), left it in the garage. He gave it to me for $0.00 and wished me many years of happy woodworking! Untouched for 30 years, I plugged it in and it runs as smooth as butter... of course it needs new tires and blades, but sweet nonetheless. 1948 Delta 28-205 14" bandsaw   BTW - this is the second free bandsaw I have received. |
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« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:18 PM by Vindingo »
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ericbuggeln
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2012, 08:37 PM » |
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Vinny, the world has enough doctors. Plus chicks dig penniless woodworkers, Eric
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Deansocial
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2012, 01:54 AM » |
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Over in the uk we have Kirkpatrick hardware which is good quality old looking stuff
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Vindingo
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2012, 02:31 PM » |
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Over in the uk we have Kirkpatrick hardware which is good quality old looking stuff
They do have nice stuff. I don't think they sell it over here though. Kirkpatrick  others:   To me the difference is night and day. I would probably buy the Kirkpatrick hardware. The only strap hinges off the shelf I could find which I liked, were $260 each. I need 12... The guy making them for me is less than 1/3rd the cost. Win win for me; support an artisan and get exactly what I want. I am also going to try to see if I can swing by his shop and see the process. |
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Deansocial
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2012, 04:44 PM » |
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They also do a ball bearing hinge in black which is good as I hate to see black handles etc then shiny SS hinges on stuff
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Vindingo
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« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2012, 09:24 PM » |
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Finally got the hardware, started install today. The existing openings were so out of whack it was crazy. Every single edge of each door has been cut at an angle that is not 90* They are just kinda wedge in there at the moment, still need final trim, sand and stain, then hardware...  |
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Rob-GB
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« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2012, 11:22 PM » |
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Looking very good sir. The design fits the building style nicely too. Rob. |
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Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ
"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke
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ScotF
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2012, 12:24 AM » |
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Looks awesome!! BTW, congrats on your new to you bandsaw...I missed that from earlier.
Scot
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Vindingo
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« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2013, 02:44 AM » |
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Random update... I never put up final photos!  the ugly flood light has since been switched  my mother made the stained glass  |
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Deansocial
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« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2013, 03:17 AM » |
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Wow that place looks loads nicer now
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