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Author Topic: Euro Cabinets 101-2 A Beginner's Guide  (Read 37903 times)
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Overtime

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« on: August 07, 2007, 11:18 PM »

 OK. Lets get right into it and make some 32 mm Frameless Cabinets with some Festools.



 
 But, first some Primers and other valuable resources on the subject. First up is Mirko's thread LR 32-SYS Secrets explained.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=452.0

  -a must read, as the very "DNA" of the subject is in his opening post. Also  http://32mm.dalrun.com/ is another very good read. Danny Proulux's book, Building Frameless Kitchen Cabinets, is yet another great "Fast track" to an end product.

After you complete those go to http://www.blum.com/us/en/01/30/index.php and read up on concealed hinges with a focus on Clip top and Clip Hinges, and Mounting plates. Download the Concealed Hinge Brochure- 11mb - 90 pages of hinge hardware. Or just go with Clip downloads to keep it simple. Look at the charts carefully as they will instruct as to proper hinge selection. It's easier than learning Sketch UP.  We will need to know what hardware we will be using and how to select it.
 
   Doesn't matter if you use Blum or not, the hinge brochure is a wealth of knowledge for those of us new to this hardware and its applications. OK wrap your mind around all that Concealed Hinge stuff. To lighten the load, forget about all the angle and specialty hinges for now, don't want to blow a fuse. For this application I will be using Full Overlay hinges for 3/4" stock- this makes the hinge selection more narrow and manageable. All we need to decide on now is the swing angle (how far will the door swing open ?) 107 110 120 170 deg and so on. We will use 120 deg Self Close (because we will be using "soft close pistons." More on that later) fully adjustable hinges. And now we need a mounting plate, Oh no another 1000 choices ! But we know we are going to have full overlay doors so you already know we need 0mm mounting plates. And yes we want cam adjustability. Why, because we may need to tweak things a bit, and having the built in availability to do that is a good thing. Yes it will add a few cents to the hardware expense. OK that was easy. 






 Here we go: wait we forgot to decide how we want to mount them... with screws, what screws? dowels?
Oh no, more choices ! Yes more. So we finally settled on some hinges and we have two here, the one on the left is a 120 deg full overlay - Blum #71T5590 Self Close Inserta and a 170 deg (high $ because of the full swing open) #71T6540 Self close Inserta. No screws needed for these as the cup expands and locks into place when you press the flap down. These hinges have full toe in toe out and camber adjustmets (not your grandpa's hinges here.) Yes, they will hold tight. And we have a cam adjustable mounting plate #173H710 that comes with the 5mm dowels with screws in place ready to go as shown. We will need 2 hinges and 2 mounting plates per door. And since we will not be buying them by the gross, case, pallet, Lb or Truck Load we can expect to pay about $2.10 ea for the 120 deg hinge and $0.49cents ea for the mounting plates. The 170 deg hinges jump to the $5.00 ea range.

More to come... Wow we haven't even plugged in a tool yet !
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 12:54 AM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2007, 01:46 AM »

 We'll jump ahead just to get a look at how and where the hardware is used. Here we can see how the hinge hardware will come into play. The white panel is a side to an upper box  - it is 12" deep X 800mm tall. This has "system holes" that are 5mm. They were drilled using the LR 32 SYS. And are spaced 32 mm from CL to CL. This panel will utilize the mounting plates that fit in the 5mm holes. The door back is one of a pair that will go to this box. The door will hold the hinge cup assembly. The hole pattern is not the same as the line bored system holes but one of the critical relations is that the "center line" of the hinge cup 3 hole pattern falls in line with the "center line" of the 32mm spacing of the 5mm system holes on the side panel. The door hinge boring consists of 2 8mm holes and a 35mm cup hole. Spacing and locations are dictated by hinge type,stock thickness and overlay options. Many types of drilling templates are available at a wide range of price points. Setting up your own drilling jigs on a drill press with stops is another option that will result in the same accuracy.

 


  Note that the door height is exactly the same height at 800mm. When cabinet sides and doors are the same height using multiples of 32mm then door hinge drilling locations become uncomplicated. Then we can take advantage of the system holes and the door cup holes as they will always line up precisely. The parts can be pre cut and drilled but not assembled as these are here, and the door hardware will mate with the case side dead on every time. Only an operator error could foul this up  Cry  as the numbers are a given. These system hole spacing and locations are a standard and when using the LR 32 SYS or any line boring machine or method to complete this process on the cabinet side panels so long as the basics are uniform the results will be the same. We will go over this in more detail later.   
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 12:06 AM by Overtime » Logged

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Eli

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2007, 07:16 AM »

Love it, fantastic, keep going! These are the same I put in my last house. The only thing I DIDN'T like about them was they gather dust on top of the lower door rail, hard to clean. The next kitchen I do for us will be likely be flush panels with a shadow line. Love it. Fantastic job.
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Dave Rudy

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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2007, 09:47 AM »

OT,

Can't say enough good things about what you're doing here.  Keep on going, waiting the next posts eagerly.

BTW, what is "CL to CL"?

This thread is just one example of what makes this forum truly outstanding!!!


Dave
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Bob Childress

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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 10:36 AM »

Center Line to Center Line.

Great thread!!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:37 AM by Bob Childress » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2007, 10:37 AM »

OT,

Excellent work!!!   Keep it coming!   And the Picture Cop (aka "me"), gives you two thumbs-up and a gold star for the pics!   Grin

Mirko's great LR32 tutorial and Brice Burrell's animated drawings (http://www.burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage13.html) and LR32 pdf (http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/LR32_tutorial.pdf) provide wealth of detailed information about how to use the LR32 for cabinet making.   Your work completes the picture!!!  

When I first started buying Festool, I looked at the LR32 and thought, "what's that thing used for?"   Now it's on my to-buy list.

Many thanks,

Dan.
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2007, 11:10 AM »

 Thanks Eli, and it just so happins that now is a perfect time to decide on what type of sheet goods we will use for our project.

 But before we go there let me add this link for those that have or plan to use the LR 32. http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=514.0
Brice will get us set up and running with this tool quickly. For those that just can't get enough information, one more resource to mention is a book called True 32 Flow Manufacturing by Bob Buckley. This book is geared towards the commercial cabinet shop but contains some useful info.

 OK back to case material selection. Lets split them in two for now and deal with #1 the cabinet box and or case, carcass etc. and #2 the doors. Many factors to deal with here. Personal choice, cost, availability, style and on and on. We could chose any thing from a high end architectural grade veneered panel to a melamine covered particle board. So lets narrow the field. We're going to use 3/4" or 23/32 sheet goods for this project. These upper cabinets will be located in a shop, garage or basement. So looks are low on priority. But strength and durability is high on our list.

 Things to consider at this junction. No matter what we select for the case material the overall time of the labor and joinery methods to construct the box will be generally the same. Paint grade or stain grade these are also factors to consider. They add time to any project. While melamine is a time saver when it comes to finishing and cost is low I will put this at the bottom of my list for this project and rule it out completely. Don't want to invest the time and hardware $ for a material that might sag or have blown-out hardware issues down the line.
  The items we will be placing in these cabinets will be heavy and that along with extreme humidity swings makes particle board products last on my list. That brings us to plywood and MDF. MDF is now available in lighter weights and also in a somewhat exterior grade to combat moisture issues. I hate MDF but it still is a good option here.

 Look around your shop and garage, are there any useful cut-offs of sheet goods that you are constanly moving out of your way but saving for that certain project that will eventually pop up ? Now is the time for those if they will work.

 But I'm going with Plywood and will be using Baltic Birch. It is a very stable, flat multi-ply sheet good true to size. At just about twice the cost of shop grade ply this product should last a lifetime.  The cost might be "over the top" for many of us and availability may also be an issue but the level of quality is superior.    Shop grade plywood would also be a great choice if I was confident that it would not warp 20 minutes after I rip it. But it is and remains a great option for our application.

 No matter what we use we will need to address the sheet good's exposed edging. Or we don't need to do a thing and leave them be as they are. The clean cut of multi-ply edge is just fine for a utility grade cabinet. But lets plan to cover them up in a proper mannor. This will give us a stepping stone to future projects that will be at a higher level of quality and finish.

 Our goal here will be to get a nice finished edge on all of the exposed edges of the plywood including shelves and door slabs. We will use a fast and easy method to accomplish this task. No special tooling such as hot melt edge taping equipment and the like is needed.  And no we don't even need an iron. The results will be very good.
 
We will use a product from Fastcap called Fastedge.   
 
 



 This product is available in many wood choices both finished or unfinished along with melamine choices.
 I will be using "unfinished natural" birch here, It would probably be considered a paint grade edging, as they have "white birch" also at a higher cost. For us this product will be fine. It's the ease of application that is of importance here.

 The process is a simple peel and stick method. The tenacity or stickiness of this product is similar to mating two pieces of material with contact cement.   
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 12:21 AM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2007, 11:51 AM »

Overtime,
Man this is good stuff!
Excellent work, and thanks for the time and effort putting this tutorial together!
Keep it going, and tell us everything!
Matthew
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Dave Ronyak

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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2007, 01:03 PM »

Overtime,

Thanks for this tutorial.  It is exactly what I have been looking for...for shop cabinets and for an entertainment center I am designing.  Another thing I realized last night is that TV compartment door products listed in Rockler's catalogues haven't caught up with the fact that LCD and plasma TVs don't require cabinets nearly as deep as for old CRT TV's, and don't address how to make and attach doors that can be slid back into the sides of the cabinet when in use.  A pair of bi-fold doors doesn't seem compatible with the various Euro hardware and rack and pinion or other slide mechanisms, unless your willing to make the panels of pair forming a bifold of different sizes or make the width of the cabinet much greater to compensate for the fact that the folded door panel is going to interfere with the Euro hinge arm extending from the cup in the door panel to the inside of the side of the cabinet.

Others apparently are able to see pics that you have posted.  Usually I have no problem seeing photos and videos posted at FOG, but for some reason none of yours are coming through today.  I checked other FOG posts with photos and confirmed they are coming through, e.g. John Lucas recent post about an MFT router table with a photo of Elena.

Dan or Matthew,

Any thoughts on why no pics on my PC?

Dave R.
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2007, 01:08 PM »

A pair of bi-fold doors doesn't seem compatible with the various Euro hardware and rack and pinion or other slide mechanisms, unless your willing to make the panels of pair forming a bifold of different sizes or make the width of the cabinet much greater to compensate for the fact that the folded door panel is going to interfere with the Euro hinge arm extending from the cup in the door panel to the inside of the side of the cabinet.

Wow, Dave, that's some detail-packed sentence!

Others apparently are able to see pics that you have posted.  Usually I have no problem seeing photos and videos posted at FOG, but for some reason none of yours are coming through today.  I checked other FOG posts with photos and confirmed they are coming through, e.g. John Lucas recent post about an MFT router table with a photo of Elena.

Dan or Matthew,

Any thoughts on why no pics on my PC?

Dave R.

I don't know why the pics wouldn't show up for you.  They are referencing the gallery, so as long as you are signed into the forum they should appear.

I'll check on the settings...

Matthew
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bruegf

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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2007, 01:29 PM »

Dave,

Make sure you are logged in.   Pics don't appear when you're not logged in.

Fred
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Overtime

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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 10:55 PM »

OK- thanks all for your compliments

 Now let's cut up a $64.00 sheet of 3/4" 4'X8' Baltic Birch  Grin

Our cabinet has dimensions and we will prepare to cut out the parts. Oh right , we will construct a double door upper cabinet here.
 Earlier I downsized a full sheet of  ply using a Festool guide rail 3000/2 and a TS 55 EQ
I marked off, and set the rail smack on the line to yield or net a 12" wide x 8' long piece. Did that again and got another 12" plank. And as usual the cuts are super nice. We won't be needing "cutlist" or any program here, just a sharp pencil and some paper. We now have two planks of ply that will give us two sides, a top & bottom and two shelves. We still need to find and cut a back and deal with the doors. But we'll stay focused on the box for now.




Low tech boom arm - two sections of hardware store bungie by the foot, suspended from eye hooks and tied to hose for "quick release" Grin






Now we can get things going at the MFT. At this point I will start downsizing again. To insure we get square cuts check your setup. And as you proceed remember not to slam that heavy plywood into the fence and send it out of whack.
  Our parts will be 2 at 30" long (top & bottom) and two at 800mm long (right and left sides) and two at 29 and13/16ths these will be for the shelves. This will allow for room for the shelf to drop onto the shelf pins. We will also need to trim them down from 12" to 11 1/4" This is because of the back. Our box will be 800mm tall x 31 1/2" wide ( outside dimension) x 12" deep this does not include the doors. We will have a 1/4" back let into a daddo. We will be adding 1/2" x 3-4" mounting rails on the back top and bottom.








  So to insure I get nice uniform and square cuts, I will take each plank and cut them all at 32" to get a total of 6 pieces from the two planks.. As I rough cut I mark the Square cut corner to indicate it's good clean cut. Don't rely on the factory edge for a finished cut. Make all the parts to have fresh square ends.  Stop to pause and consider this, are your boards uniform at 12" ? That number is not set in stone and can be whatever you want. What matters most is that we get our top, bottom and sides all the same width.  Since our two planks were cut using the guide rail method we will want to insure they are uniform. Will you sleep better if you ran them accross the table saw to shave them all a bit just to make sure they are the same size ?, no biggie,  OK no problem because once we start cross cutting...  Next we will place the marked square end against the stop for repeat cuts. Now we measure out 800mm , mark and locate the board and set that stop so the pairs are equal length cut and repeat. Then on to the sides and shelves. Mark or label the parts as soon as they are sized and keep them in pairs.
 



 Here we have our parts, top, bottom and sides, and shelves all nice and square with clean crisp edges. Note that along with some dust,  those small pieces on the right is our waste cut offs. 98% or so yield- not bad.   


« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 04:57 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 11:57 PM »

 Next we'll machine the parts

 First we want to look over our panels and pick an inside / outside because from now on it matters. So mark them. And keep them in pairs. Also we have an air line with a nozzle to blow dust and chips off our table and parts because from now on we want to treat them as if they were a "stain grade" product" and minimise damage to the boards. Chips on the work surface and between the boards will cause scratch and dent's  Angry and that adds time to the finishing dept.
 
I'll start with the Domino. Starting with a side panel, I'll place a couple of mortises on each end. Using the pins for placement and spacing. I have the width set at the middle wide setting. We will use 5mm.

To clamp them for this process I found that the side panels will rest nicely on the MFT's bottom leg support rail while quick clamping them to the MFT frame rail section. It gives a good stable work position.

And a couple of notes on the Domino: make sure your settings and fence position are correct and locked in place before you begin. If the Domino handles as if your were holding a live trout by the tail, your work piece is not stable or clamped correctly.

   

We'll flip this around and Domino the other end. Then we will repeat this on the other side panel.

Next we'll work on the top and bottom sections by placing mating mortices in the same pattern using the pins for spacing. Not even a mark needed !  Cool

 


 Here we are using the Jorgensen ( thanks to bill-e for his post on them ) hold down clamps to work the ends of the top and bottom panels. Be sure and mark them in some manner. I mark this as "outside or out" for the Domino allignment to the sides. Here we just left the tape on to indicate "out" or up. We will complete the other end of this board by keeping the outer side up as we turn it and reclamp.
  Then we'll do the other Top/Bottom board ends. That completes the Domino process.

But before we put it away, just a quick check and a dry fit. OK, looking good so far. 

« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 06:56 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 08:28 AM »

Overtime,
I'm following the whole thing, man!  Keep it going.
By the way, your shop is too clean!!!  And I like your boom-arm set up.
Looking forward to the next installment.
Matthew
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Overtime

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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2007, 06:41 PM »

Next up: Pocket holes. I'm going to place a couple of them( 3 on each end) on the (outside side) of the outer ends of my top and bottom boards. They will act as clamps when we assemble the box. (but we will be using clamps also) Your choice, use them or don't. Use more dominos or don't. Plenty of options here.

 


Note the hose adaptor -  part # DT
The locations were marked and drilled. I placed three at each end. One in the center and one between each of the two outer mortises. Keep them away from the outer edge of the boards. No mechanical fasteners within 2 and 1/8th inches from the outer edges of these as we will be installing a Blum Soft Close device.



 This is a Blumotion 970A1002 Soft Close Plunger. About $2.60 ea. More on that later.

Lets move over to the table saw to machine a 1/4" daddo in to the inside back of each board so we need to look them over now and pick our best edges and mark them front or back. We want our best reserved for the wood edge tape that we will be using later.





Here is our spacing or set back of the daddo. I will be attaching two 1/2" x 3"  nailing rails on the back. One up top and one at the bottom.
The pic shows the 1/2" scrap piece and a 1/4" piece in the daddo to finish out flush with the back. This will make our inside box depth 11 1/4".  Many options here as well. I will be attaching a 3/4" plywood french cleat also. Lots to think about here. How will "you" mount them and so on. My cabinet will hang on the wall from the cleat. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.



  And here we have the two sides and top and bottom. The next process will be the "system holes" on the sides using the LR 32-SYS  Wink and OF 1010 EQ router.




« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 07:01 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 07:57 PM »

 Before we get to the LR 32 SYS work. Here's some prep work on our doors and a little more on the hinge hardware and tooling.



 Here is a table full of goodies. We have a bunch of Blum 120 deg Inserta hinges and mounting plates. Also a few Blumotion Soft Close plungers.  4 completed but unfinished doors. They were made from clear pine with a 1/4" knotty pine veneered panel. Festool # 491129 Stile bit and # 491130 Rail bit were used to create the profile on the 2 1'4" pine stock.

 And we have a pre cut pile of 2 1/4" pine stock, face and edge sanded and ready to be machined with the same Stile and Rail set. The boards are shrink wrapped to help keep them stable. This help combat warpage due to humidity while they await machining.

 

 Here we have two of Blum's tools. The large one is Blum's Ecodrill # M31.000 used to drill the 3 hole hinge cup pattern on the doors.And the other is the Template drilling guide bushing # 65.5010 used to locate and drill for the Blumotion Soft Close plunger #970A1002

 Here is a closer look at the Ecodrill







This is a pricey little setup at about $260.00  For the small shop and sometime cabinet maker this tool is just incredible. There are much less costly jigs and methods available. For me this is like the domino is to the mortise and tennon process. A giant leap in accuracy on demand, time saving and ease of use. Just strike a line , clamp and go. You can bring the tool to the work piece any where any time.

More to come
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2007, 05:19 PM »

OT,

Awesome thread!

Thanks very much for providing this tutorial, I'm learning a lot, looking forward to more!

DaveM
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2007, 09:48 AM »

 Now lets move on to the final machining process of our parts. We have only the case sides to work on. So it's time for the LR 32 SYS and a router. By now most of us have had plenty of time to absorb all of the info on the set up and use of this equipment. And even those that have it on their wish list know how to use it by now.
  But lets burn some bandwidth with a flurry of pics.

 

Here we have our LR 32 guide rail and a straight edge board marked with the blue tape. This is the "Mirko" inspired jig. On my version I have drilled two holes on each end and use  some screws to hold it firmly into place. Also to to remove the rail from the end boards and then put it back together if need be and have it dead on accurate without the need to readjust.
   The straight edge board is set along the MFT's fence and is clamped to the MFT rails at the ends. Then the jig assembly is butted up to the board and also clamped. Now we're set to go.



 I'm showing here how I have set the jig so as to have the center of the "system holes" land at 37mm from the finished edge of the side panel. Since I will be adding the wood edge tape (a small sample showing here only to illustrate that my "finished edge" is not on the board yet.) So my set up takes this into account. I'll remove the wood tape sample.



Again, we want the row of system hole centers to land at 37mm from the finished edge of the board to the center of the holes.



A close look, we are setting the adjustable bar pin stops and here we have depressed the router bit (router is off and we're just plunging for marking) to give a mark so we can measure and adjust from. We'll move the router down the line and make a couple of depression marks to insure we are going to have our row of holes parallel to the edge of the board. This process is used when setting up with out the Mirko jig, which makes this a moot point.



Here are two tools that have become invaluable in the aid of measuring and understanding the metric system. The tape measure is Fastcap's PMS - (Pad Metric Standard) and they have two more metric tapes also. The "Metric - Standard" tape will have you using and understanding the mm system in no time.
  Also shown is a digital caliper with Metric, Inches, fractions, and Decimals. 



Now we have a side panel set in place for drilling the 5mm holes onto the front edge of the panel, I marked the "top" of the panel (but if your board length is a multiple of 32mm and and your end stops are set to have a first hole CL land at 16mm from the end of the panel) then top and bottom won't matter. It's reversable.  When you learn to trust your Festools and their results the panel can be left or right and all will line up. For now when we flip the board we'll place the "top" against the end stop and secure. Using Festool Clamping Elements # 488030 without the undermount knobs.
   Also you can see 3 faint pencil lines the first is to indicate that the first hole location will be at 16 mm from the edge of the board ( we will not drill this it is only to show correct set up for our application. The next two lines are at 80mm and 112mm and these are our starting points. They are marked by colors (a Mirko system) No need to measure and mark, the jig will do all that. But just a few seconds of pre planning will give you a nice hole pattern. Those two will be for our hinge mounting plates, and we want them at the bottom also, So locate the two holes that are 80 and 112mm from the bottom of the board and without moving or changing a thing mark and or drill those two positions. We're working on the front edge of a side panel and only the front edge needs the mounting plate holes. Then we'll skip a few, say 4-5 hole  positions from both the top and bottom mounting plate holes and drill every thing in between. Those will be for the shelf pins. And as Mirko points out no need to go drilling willy nilly all over the place. Because I don't think you will be placing a shelf 4'' from the bottom or top of the cabinet and we won't be needing mounting plates in the back of the box either
  This process is so easy and fast that it is hard not to just drill the entire hole line, hence the color codes.

  OK now reposition the board to drill the Back row of holes. We only need holes in this application for shelf placement so we will make them in line with the shelf holes that were drilled on the front edge. We're going to keep our 37mm set back the same for this but we could easily change it if need be for example - if our "back" of box was set up in a way that would necessitate the row of holes to be located inward a bit. Then we could do something like in the next pic.

   

 Here we show a spacer block that we can place at both ends of our jig set up to increase our (standard 37 mm setting for the front edge) to any distance we might need. The 37mm is a constant but there are applications when it is changed. Door hinge and drawer slide hardware utilise this "system hole pattern" 37mm from the edge with 32mm CL to CL and 5mm holes.
  With this project we are using the simplest form of the system.

 And just think not long ago I thought all those silly little holes were just for shelf adjustment !
 

 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 10:11 AM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2007, 11:34 AM »

  Some recap and thoughts on what we've done up till now. 

 We cut a sheet of ply and netted our 6 parts including the two shelves. If we wanted Two cabinet sets from the sheet we would have ripped another 12" x 8' plank and got all 8 box parts- tops bottoms and sides and then be left with a less than 12" ( due to loss from saw kerf cuts) piece for shelves. Since the shelves will be at or near 11 1/4" we would be just fine with enough stock for the shelves also.

 Thus far this could easily have been an all Festool project as the daddo could have been accomplished with a OF 1400 or 1010 using a guide rail. Soon when we or "I" get used to the idea that a TS 55 EQ and a rail can give you a finished cut, eliminating the double handling of the parts. Trust your festools, they won't let you down.

  Why am I using all this high $ hardware ? Since most of this "concealed hinge" stuff is new to me, I wanted flexability in the adjustment area. And I sure got it! We have a total of 6 axis adjustment points per door ! Thats enough to make a square door fit an octagon shaped box. We can fine tune the fit and operation of our doors easily with a screwdriver. Until we or "I" get familiar with this process this hardware gives me a sense confidence should my measurements be off a tad bit  Shocked ect.

 Box size standards. Hmmm, well I know there are some standards but I'm not a professional cabinet maker and the size of my project is based mainly on need with a little thought on aesthetics tossed in.

 Why pine for stile and rails? Had a couple 1 x 6 x 8' S4S clear mostly vertical grain pine on hand. Very clean and stable, each board will yield 16 LF of 2 1/4" stock. So far... works for me.

 And speaking of professional cabinet makers and those with lots of experience in this area: Please feel free to comment and make suggestions on points or areas that need to be corrected or methods and standards that you use that could be of value on this topic. While this may be my tutorial, I welcome any and all information that would help those of us in the "novice" category expand our skills.       
 
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2007, 02:59 PM »

 Time for the edge banding. Many folks already have the equipment in some form or another and or methods of completing this task. But for those of us that do not we'll quickly go over my limited experience with the Fastcap wood tape process.
  So round up all your parts. Find the shelves, hope you didn't loose em or cut them up for another project. Roll Eyes We will need some good sharp scissors to rough cut our wood tape. We'll cut them each about 1" or so longer then actual size.

 

 First we will clean the dust off the edge by using a blast of air then wipe the edge surface with a damp rag with acetone or denatured alcohol. This will prep the surface for the sticky tape.



Peel back some of the tape cover and carefully line up before letting it make contact. I start with about 1/2" overhang at the end. I'm using 15/16" tape. So I have plenty of room to get it right.



Peel off the rest of the protective covering and continue to press it on





 
Flip the board over and trim off the excess on the ends, then trim off the excess on the long sides (where there is excess greater than about a 1/16th or so). Careful to keep the blade away from the panel by using the body of the utility knife as a guide, The blade will want to follow the grain so careful - this is not a finish cut so leave a 1/16th or so. This will make the final trimming go smoothly.




Flip it back over and roll it down tight. It's on there now ! Now to do the finish trimming.



I do not have a hand held trimmer Like Virutex or Fastcap double sided trimmer blade (yet). So I have been using a PC 310 and have found that this type of bit, slightly angled and set just so will give a nice clean cut.

 

This process can be somewhat tricky in that the glue line cutting has a sweet spot where the best outcome is when the blade is just so. It takes two passes usually to get a clean cut. And the bit and router base needs to be kept clean by using acetone or denatured alcohol. You will know when you have a clean cut. When it's not right you will have glue either showing or you can still feel it.



When your done with the trimmer then you can go over the edge with 180 or so grit - giving a few swipes to clean up along with downward swipes on the ends to eliminate fuzz.

This stuff takes some time to get right and it can be a little frustrating at first but after some trials you can get a nice edge.
I would like to hear from others that have used it.




 
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2007, 08:02 PM »

Thanks for the tip about FastEdge.  I just picked up some white PVC FastEdge for my laundry white melamine cabinets.  Very quick and easy.  Have you tried the Fastcap trimmer.  I bought one with the edging it works like a dream.  One quick pass and both sides are trimmed flush.  Rub over the edge quickly with a fine file to break the edge and its done to perfection.

Fred
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2007, 11:36 AM »

  Thanks Fred, That's just what I was hoping to hear. The Fastedge trimmer sounds like a much better way to trim this product. I should have got one when I got the wood tape. But for some reason I thought the trim router would be fine. And while I am getting very good results, That type of trimmer sounds much better. So I will add that one to my tool list, including their roller, and will have them soon. Thanks for sharing your results with the Fastedge. 
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2007, 03:20 PM »

I had one of those trimmers in the past, but stopped using it eventually. I really just prefer a very sharp chisel. Works just as easy and the results are just as good if not better (the trimmer would sometimes leave tear-out).
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2007, 04:52 PM »

Lou,

I haven't tried the Fastcap trimmer on wood edging yet, but so far every trim has been perfect on the white PVC edging on the melamine cabinets.  It only takes a couple seconds for me to trim an edge.  I've never used any method that works as well as this, but (standard disclaimer here :-)) YMMV.

Fred
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2007, 11:37 PM »

  Please note an Error was made  Angry back in the opening post as to hinge Type and Numbers. I had stated that we want Free Swing - this is incorrect. We want Self Close or SC 71T5590. The free swing hinges are not "spring loaded" and will not pull themselves closed with the Blumotion Soft Close Plunger.  The hinge shown is in fact a Self Close 120 Inserta. But the number on it says 70T5590 ? .
     The important issue is the Self Close aspect. This hinge will want to snap closed at the point that's just before fully closed. And the Soft Close Plunger has a resistance to it that slows down the slamming effect. When ordering be sure to select the Self Close type if you will be using the Blumotion Soft Close Plunger.
   My apologies for the bad info. I have made a correction to the post.   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 01:16 AM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2007, 01:14 PM »

Dave,

Make sure you are logged in.   Pics don't appear when you're not logged in.

Fred

Correct, Fred.  I did log in.  I might add that pics were showing up better last night.  Maybe it's due to my Dell Inspiron and the whims of MS Vista OS!

Dave R.
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2007, 02:32 PM »

Dave,

Vista!?!   Oh noooooooo, Dave.  Shocked   (We will now have a moment of silence for Dave.)  May he rest in peace!   Cry

Perhaps it's not too late to ask for a copy of XP.  Much better OS, IMO.

Dan.
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2007, 02:39 PM »

Correct, Fred.  I did log in.  I might add that pics were showing up better last night.  Maybe it's due to my Dell Inspiron and the whims of MS Vista OS!

Dave,
Following the Vista story feels eerily like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," as one by one great people get swallowed up and their identity zombied out.

Seriously though, if this occurred right when you switched computers I'd bet that's the problem.  Do you have another PC, perhaps in another location, where you could test whether photos show up?

Matthew
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2007, 03:39 PM »

  Intermission will soon end.

 while the sound of Mozart's Symphony No 40 in G minor can be heard
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2007, 10:44 PM »

Case Assembly and hardware.
   Well now that I  have all the parts ready I'll dry fit and measure for the 1/4" back. I left about a 1/16" play. The back was cut and dry fit again. These parts have been primed and the insides have a finish coat on them. The case was assembled with glue and 1 1/4" washer head  Kreg screws. Pipe clamps were also used. And the usual "scramble" while getting it all square and set before the glue set.






  1/2" x 3 1/2" nailing rails were glued and pocket holed into the back top and bottom. Using Kreg SPS C1 1" pan head coarse screws. After searching for suitable 1/2" scraps I had to get these from a fresh sheet using the 3000/2 and TS 55 EQ Then cross cut on the MFT.

 

Here I have a Cleat with a 45 deg bevel on it. It is on top with the back side all glued up and ready for placement. Dominos just because I could. They are all at the middle wide setting Glue dripping ready to go. Brad nails were also used. Think it will hold ?  Grin
 The shameless overkill and and use of the domino on these two boxes for the cleat is because these are bound for my Sister and BIL"s home, where they "might" be housing reams of paper. Hence the over built cleat attachment, and finish work.  Wink
  My shop cabinets have no finish at all, and the cleats were mounted without the dominos.
   



 From the inside with the cleat temporarily clamped some Kreg 1 1/2" SML C150 washer head coarse screws were piloted and screwed through the back and nailer into the cleat. These Cabinets will be hanging on a concrete block basement wall. A mating cleat will be attached to the wall. 



A bumper strip was glued and brad nailed near the bottom to keep the cab level against the wall. The full load is on top cleat.





« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 12:31 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2007, 11:27 PM »

Dave,

Vista!?!   Oh noooooooo, Dave.  Shocked   (We will now have a moment of silence for Dave.)  May he rest in peace!   Cry

Perhaps it's not too late to ask for a copy of XP.  Much better OS, IMO.

Dan.

Thanks, Dan, you know all too well of my PC problems, which led to purchase my new Dell Inspiron which was offered only with Vista.  But ... Matthew may have provided some solutions to try.  All the photos are showing up perfectly at this moment.

Dave R.

Dave R.
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 12:01 AM »

  With the case woodworking complete we'll get to the hardware and doors.



 We"ll install the Blum # 173H710 cam adjustable hinge mounting plates. An easy process, small arrows point outward towards the door. The plastic dowels fit perfectly in the 5mm holes and while tightening the screws they expand while gripping the fixture down flat.



 Using the Blumotion locating and drilling jig is a rush.  Smiley  We need to drill a 10mm (25/64) hole 2" deep into the edge of the ply. This helps keep the bit straight. Steady and light pressure. Have the bondo ready.  Grin  No it's not that bad.

Locating the piston / plunger Update Detailed information on locating the plunger 970A can be found on the Blumotion for doors brochure. (3.26mb file) http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/1077_bmn4d_b/1077_bmn4d_b.pdf  Page 16 and 17.

There are many other soft close choices including the snap onto the standard hinge type such as the 973A. No drilling or special tools required.
There is a Blumotion option for just about any application.  Pick the model and check the specs to match with hardware.

The installed location shown is off by about an inch. The correct location per Blum specs, using the combination of 0mm mounting plates and overlay doors should be 32mm from the inside corner of the cabinet,  in the same general location but a little furher away from hinge.



Then we'll tap the Soft Close plunger down into place. We have one per door, upper hinge side - right and left on the front edge of the top panel.

 That completes the case and now onto the doors.
 
   Plenty of options here. I will use a stile and rail set by Festool. I get my door dimensions by the using the actual outside case measurements. And since I will have a double door I'll split it in half and I'll make my doors so as to have no gap and no reveal. We're using Full Overlay hinges. After door completion I will create a door gap by trimming the mating edge of each door a bit, 1/32" or so each. And if I wanted a little reveal I will still make the door full size at this time. 
   Here is the Festool set that I used #491129 stile bit and #491130 rail bit.



 The stock was machined on a Jessem router table. A slow speed was used and plowed out the profile in one big gulp. (soft pine) With a second pass to clean up. One minor issue or comment on the set: the center gap is less than 1/4" by enough that for my application I had to widen the gaps of all the parts a bit to receive the 1/4" panel that I used in the center of the doors. Some very minor sanding before assembly to clean up fuzz. The profile is smooth and pleasing to the eye. Nice looking set. The stile and rail stock was 3/4" clear pine and sized at 2 1/4"
  If using slab doors I would tape only the hinge side of each door and leave the other three edges of each door unfinished until fitting is complete.

When the doors are ready we will drill the three hole hinge cup pattern in the back side of each door, and then fit them.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 01:07 AM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2007, 07:08 AM »

Here I have a Cleat with a 45 deg bevel on it. It is on top with the back side all glued up and ready for placement. Dominos just because I could. They are all at the middle wide setting Glue dripping ready to go. Brad nails were also used. Think it will hold ?  Grin


For this application, it would maybe have been a bit sturdier if you had hewn the cabinet from a lightning-struck oak, then bronzed it.



I love your work, thanks for this thread+pix
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2007, 12:52 PM »

 Or a CNC machine starting with a 13" thick slab  Grin

Dave, I hope you are getting to see the pics OK. They are coming directly from Photobucket not the gallery, as I have not yet figured out how to ref the link and view with a preview as I attempt to edit  Roll Eyes.
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2007, 12:57 PM »

Or a CNC machine starting with a 12" thick slab  Grin

Dave, I hope you are getting to see the pics OK. They are coming directly from Photobucket not the gallery, as I have not yet figured out how to ref the link and view with a preview as I attempt to edit  Roll Eyes.

Overtime,  the photos were coming through excellently last night on my home PC.  Thanks for your excellent, detailed description.  Soon I will have no more excuses and will have to make some hanging cabinets for my garage/shop.  And getting rid of some ugly old storage racks will make my wife very happy.

Dave R.
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2007, 02:53 PM »

An outstanding thread. Nice work telling the step-by-step. I know well how difficult that is. Keep em coming. We will never have to much of that.
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2007, 03:16 PM »

  The doors are ready  Smiley

 My two doors have been built and assembled full size, together side by side they are the same size as the box outer dimensions.



Two straight edge boards were clamped to the assembly table to form a quick squaring jig.



 The most important size here is the hight of our doors at 800 mm, same as the case sides. We will mark a line at 96 mm from the bottom and top of each door. If you are using slab or flat doors have your edge tape on only this edge at this point.
 
   Whatever method you use to drill the three hole hinge cup pattern the 96 mm mark will always put the hinge cup assembly holes dead center in line with the 5 mm (system holes) that were drilled on the side panels at 32 mm Center to Centers.

    Another key measurement is the set back of the hinge cup hole. Where do we start ? How far from the edge of the door will the beginning of the hole be ? Refer to your hinge specs.
 
   The distance we use here (5 mm) will put the door edge (when closed) flush with the cabinet side with no reveal or over hang. From this point I can adjust the reveal using the adjustment screws on the hinge itself.

   

The small orange things on the Ecodrill are adjustable tab blocks that are used to change the set back, in - out from the edge of the door. I"m using the 5mm setting.



Now we can begin to adjust and size the door just remember not to mess with the hinge cup edge of the doors.






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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2007, 03:42 PM »

 We'll put the hinges on and start the finish trimming. Wow they fit and line up  Shocked



Adjust the doors so they are flush with the side of the case as a starting point. Now you will see that you will need to create the gap for the two doors to operate properly.




I shaved an equal tad off the mating edges of each door (Remember not to change the hinge cup edge) and then edge sanded.



 Then I just shaved the tops and bottoms using the stop on the MFT. Here you can create more of a reveal if so desired. Those using slab doors can complete the edge banding process after fitting the doors.



 With some quick and easy adjustments you will be able to fine tune the door gap and all around fit with amazing accuracy.



The gap can be closed to a razor thin parallel line or widened to suit your taste.

Closing comments to follow.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 04:00 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2007, 04:26 PM »

This has been great, Patrick. I can't wait for the post where you say' "Come back tomorrow and we'll do drawers!!"
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2007, 04:40 PM »

Patrick,
Nice job. Have you always used the Blum Ecodrill?  I have the 1400 router, but no guide rail with holes.  I have been debating on getting the LR 32-Set or the LR 32-SYS. I have other blum products and like them a lot. Do you know how  the 35mm bit works with the LR 32-SYS. I've heard that some people have problems with it burning using the router. Any thoughts or recommendations on which system to lean toward would be helpful.
Thanks, Mike
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2007, 04:53 PM »

  Hey Mike, I can tell you that the LR32 sys is a great investment if you have some cabinets to make. I use the LR32 to drill hinge cup holes with the Festool 35mm bit. The bit is pretty aggressive, so a slower speed should be used on the router. I use the 1 or 2 speed setting with good results (no burning). There is a lot of companies making different hinge location jigs right now, but my thought is why bother to spend the extra money when the LR32 will do the job just as well. My 2 cents.

Patrick, I would also like to hear your opinion.
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2007, 06:11 PM »

Patrick,

I guess the plywood is thinner around my neck of the woods. I just bought the same bit set and the groove was perfect for the 1/4 inch plywood I had on hand. Who knows what the next sheet will be like. I did need to re-shim the bearing on the rail bit to get a better fit on the joint. The tongue was .010 (.25mm) thinner than the groove. I like the look of these joints. In pine like your doors it would look right at home in a more rustic setting while in a fine close grained wood like maple or cherry it could have a very modern look. I am looking forward to seeing how the pattern can be dressed up or down with various panel treatments. A nice refreshing look. Thanks again for all the work you have put into this. John was right when he commented on how much it takes to make a presentation flow so well.

Added thought: Have you tried the special roundover bit that goes with this rail and style set? It allows for even more variability.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 06:13 PM by greg mann » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2007, 06:18 PM »

 Good points guys, and it brings up the hinge selection used here. I used Blum hinges that require 8mm holes along with the 35 mm cup for the Inserta type hinge. So one would need to drill 8 mm holes for those. A hinge requiring screws for mounting would replace the 8 mm holes needed.
  The LR 32 SYS comes with every thing needed (less the rail) to get all this done, as Brice points out. Using a screw mounted hinge cup assembly. The only draw backs are the set up for the cup drilling and not being able to drill the 8 mm holes if you wanted to use the Inserta type hinge.

  A big stumbling block for me was the hinge cup hole assembly process, I just didn't get it. And the hinge hardware ? How come the hole distance is not 32 mm ? Why are some of them 8 mm ? what happened to the 5 mm ? What happened to the 32 mm ? Why is there not an 8 mm bit in the LR 32 SYS set ?  How far from the edge of the door do you start ? What product line hardware ? So I got the LR 32 SYS and only after Mirko's post did it fall into place for me.  After playing around with the components of it I slowly caught on. But I was not satisfied with the hinge cup drilling process.

 I have looked very closely at the Hettich offerings including their cabinet program that automatically suggests & selects the proper hardware options as you go. But I found the Blum product line to be more accessible.

  I chose the Blum Ecodrill partly out of frustration but mainly because it was the fastest way for me to get beyond the stumbling point of this process. And also because of the hinge type that I wanted to use : Inserta and various others that utilise the hole pattern.  I found Blum's information and tooling "understandable". And the tool itself. It is like the Festools, great accuracy for small portable tool. Doing the same process that multi thousand $ machines do.  

  I would only get the LR 32 set and save the $ to get a hinge boring jig if I were to do it again. I have had the Ecodrill only for a month or so. And after I got it I was drilling the doors within seconds, perfect every time right out of the box. Since the pieces fell into place for me, I have been cranking out upper cabinets like crazy. Since it is all fresh and new to me I thought I could show the process here. I'm glad to see that this info may help others that plan to make some themselves.        
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 10:11 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2007, 06:27 PM »

 Greg , glad to hear your opinions on the bit set. Your comments reflect my thoughts of the "look" perfectly. That other bit is on my wish list and I'm looking forward to using that. Thanks for the compliments.
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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2007, 09:10 PM »

Great job. This is a great thread.

By the way, what is the part number for the special roundover bit that goes with this rail and style set?

Thanks!
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2007, 12:06 AM »

 Thanks Doug, We're talking about Festool Panel Raising bit # 491138.

An outstanding thread. Nice work telling the step-by-step. I know well how difficult that is. Keep em coming. We will never have to much of that.

Thanks John, I have been reading your site Woodshopdemos for a couple of years at least. My introduction to "Festool" was from your presentations on them. And of coarse with the help of your assistants, the tool learning curve process is made easy. 
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2007, 01:43 AM »

 The 32 mm system used on this project is just a simple version of the many uses of it. But if you stay within the boundaries of a few basic measurements used here you can get similar results.

   The key measurements are the 5 mm holes spaced 32 mm from CL to CL located 37 mm from the front edge of the board. This was done using the LR 32 set. The 96 mm distance from the bottom and tops of the doors will always put your hinge hardware in alignment with the "system holes" on the side panels so long as your sides and doors are the same length of any size increment of 32 mm

  Door hinge cup hole pattern drilling (35 mm cup hole and placement) can be achieved with the LR 32 SYS complete set. But plan on using a screw mounted hinge cup assembly. And a little more time for set up and bit changes. There are many makers of concealed hinge cabinet door hardware. And there are also many drilling jigs that will speed up and simplify this step. It can also be performed at the drill press at little cost.  The Blum Ecodrill is a very expensive tool and is not necessary to complete this process. But if you will be making cabinets and casework requiring concealed hinge hardware this is one of many options.   

  Using this method makes everything Work. After completing your first cabinet box using this method you will see the benefit of the 32 mm system. You can make your sides and doors any length you like but if you do not use increments of 32 mm for your door and side parts you will have a little more work to do. But making changes to customise your needs will be much clearer after completing at least one simple project like this, staying within the boundaries of the system. Alterations such as reveals and overlays will fall into place as the hands on use of the process and hardware will show.

  I found it interesting that while I have a well equipped shop including a sliding miter saw station, I have gravitated towards the Festools. They were used for almost every step in this project. The MFT was a main feature in most of the machining of the parts. It was not planned to be an all Festool project but the tools work so well together. The quality of both the tools and the results they perform is outstanding. I find that they speed up the proficiency process in a smooth and reliable way.
 Also interesting was my use of the combination of both Metric and Imperial numerical systems as I slowly adapt to the mm system.

 Thanks to John Lucas, and Jerry Work for the great write ups on the Festools and also to Mirko and Brice and to all that continue to share and expand the knowledge base here. For those that have not had the opportunity to work side by side with a professional craftsman as in an apprenticeship setting, this is the next best thing.

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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2007, 10:45 AM »

Thanks Doug, We're talking about Festool Panel Raising bit # 491138.

Actually Doug, I was talking about roundover bit #491131 but I certainly would like to see the profile from the panel raising bit that Patrick is referring to. The #491131 roundover produces the same ovoid shape as the rail and style bit with which Patrick made his doors. He left that treatment off, which goes to show that one can create a lot of variety with this set even before the panel is considered.

Patrick, If you have that panel raiser I would certainly like to see the profile it creates. The catalog pics are too hard to discern.
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2007, 10:59 AM »

Thanks Doug, We're talking about Festool Panel Raising bit # 491138.

An outstanding thread. Nice work telling the step-by-step. I know well how difficult that is. Keep em coming. We will never have to much of that.

Thanks John, I have been reading your site Woodshopdemos for a couple of years at least. My introduction to "Festool" was from your presentations on them. And of coarse with the help of your assistants, the tool learning curve process is made easy. 

OT - very nice words and thoughts for this old guy.  When I am finding it more and more difficult to keep it going, words of encouragement like yours does do good. (I think that is English.)
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2007, 11:30 AM »

words of encouragement like yours does do good. (I think that is English.)

British maybe, or Australian?   You're hanging around this forum too much John.  Need more time with assistants.
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« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2007, 03:24 AM »

Patrick,

If you ask a dozen woodworkers how to build a cabinet, you'll get 13 opinions.  I build cabinets using several different techniques and I always have my eyes open for a better way.  I really like how you have summarized the 32 mm system of building. 

I just finished using one of the techniques that you described.  I used the Domino to help with alignment and then pocket screws to hold the case together.  It worked perfectly the first time and there was very little dust compared to using rabbets and dadoes for alignment.  It is always slower to try something different than one is used to, but this is something that I think I will use often.  And it helps justify my Domino purchase.

I will continue to scrutinize your thread and try to incorporate more of your ideas.  Thanks for the excellent documentation.

Roland
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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2007, 04:38 PM »

For those of us too destitute (from other recent purchases) to buy a Domino, could decent results be achieved using dados & rabbits?  I read somewhere that using these in plywood weakens it a bit, and shouldn't be done.  Any advice?  Thanks.
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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2007, 04:48 PM »

For those of us too destitute (from other recent purchases) to buy a Domino, could decent results be achieved using dados & rabbits?  I read somewhere that using these in plywood weakens it a bit, and shouldn't be done.  Any advice?  Thanks.

Hi,

    Well yes, technically it weakens it a bit, any wood, plywood, or material will be weakened were the dado is. Simply because       it is going to be thinner in that spot and more able to flex. But you will be filling in the dado or rabbet with the piece that is being joined to it. So I think that any weakening is pretty much nullified. It can't bend at the dado with the other piece of wood in the way (hope that makes sense).  I use dados and rabbets on plywood constructed cabinets and bookcases all the time with no trouble.

Seth
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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2007, 07:55 PM »

Hi,

    Well yes, technically it weakens it a bit, any wood, plywood, or material will be weakened were the dado is. Simply because       it is going to be thinner in that spot and more able to flex. But you will be filling in the dado or rabbet with the piece that is being joined to it. So I think that any weakening is pretty much nullified. It can't bend at the dado with the other piece of wood in the way (hope that makes sense).  I use dados and rabbets on plywood constructed cabinets and bookcases all the time with no trouble.

Seth

What you said makes perfect sense, and is in line with what I thought should be true, but I thought I would ask.  Thanks for the response.
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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2007, 08:09 PM »

I used dados and rabbets on cabinets for over 20 years. Never had a problem. The Domino just makes things so much easier and faster, IMO. Its one of those tools (the TS55 being another) that I really wish I had ten years ago. I didn't think I was going to want a Domino when they first hit the market (I said so here many times), but now that I have one, I can't put it down. I use it for everything. I know they are expensive and affording one is tough for a lot of folks. However, save those pennies and get it done one day, you'll be so glad you did.
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« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2007, 06:42 PM »

I tried in vain to get somebody to use one to flat-stud a wall today. We used a framing nailer and a BFH instead. Ugly Angry

I like the Domino as much as the next guy. However, using it for any kind of framing is just a bit over the top, don't ya think? If I used dominoes for all of my framing work, I'd either have to get some wealthier customers, or go bankrupt. Its a fast tool, but it ain't anywhere near as fast as a framing nailer, or even a BFH.
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« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2007, 09:07 PM »

Quote from: Overtime link=
 Also interesting was my use of the combination of both Metric and Imperial numerical systems as I slowly adapt to the mm system.[/quote

Brilliant thread mate.

Coming over from the UK I find working in imperial frustrating. Of course if you mention metric on most forums you usually have to duck for cover. The Euro system is so well thought out it's hard to beat.

I personally think if you're building even just a few cabinets the blum jig is worth while, especially if you're looking at the overall cost of things ( you pay 400ish for a ts55 )

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« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2007, 02:40 PM »

Dave,

Vista!?!   Oh noooooooo, Dave.  Shocked   (We will now have a moment of silence for Dave.)  May he rest in peace!   Cry

Perhaps it's not too late to ask for a copy of XP.  Much better OS, IMO.

Dan.

I thought Festool owners had to have Macs (sorry about that as I'm typing it on a PC! but I am as addicted to Apples as I am to Festools)
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The Woodentop

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« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2007, 02:41 PM »

What a load of bollocks! Festool make brilliant tools. Mac make toys for boys.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 02:45 PM by The Woodentop » Logged

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bruegf

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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2007, 04:04 PM »

Apple....    you can buy better but you can't pay more!

Fred
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The Woodentop

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« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2007, 03:03 AM »


And girls. metafizix.net. My wife (and many other graphic designers, filmmakers, photographers) won't use any other brand. I think you're selling them short to call them toys. We've never had or worried about a virus either. Apple makes brilliant tools as well.


I've owned/used both. Not closed minded as you describe your wife. Nothing the Apple would do that the PC wouldn't.....for far less cost. Viruses, not many viruses written for Mac as it's such a marginal OS. But it happens:

Symantec Corp. this week warned Mac OS X users that the addition of an exploit to the Metasploit hacking framework had boosted the threat posed by an unpatched bug in Samba, the open-source file- and print-sharing software included with the Apple operating system.

Although the vulnerability was disclosed May 14 and patched that same day by the Samba community, Apple has not updated Mac OS X with a fix, said Symantec's Alfred Huger, vice president of engineering with the security company's response group.

"This is significant exposure for Mac OS X users," said Huger. "Samba is used in virtually every mixed environment where there are Macs and PCs, and the threat profile is much higher now that an exploit has been added to Metasploit."

Samba, which is also used by most Linux distributions to file- and print-sharing with Windows systems, is turned on in Mac OS X when users activate the Windows Sharing feature.

This month, a trio of Brazilian researchers who collaborate as Rise Security released Mac OS X attack code for the Samba vulnerability. According to Symantec, the Rise code is "almost identical" to what the company's security team discovered in late May.

More important, said Huger, is that Rise also contributed their code to Metasploit, an open-source platform for creating, testing and launching exploit code. "Once we see something in Metasploit, we know it's likely we'll see it used in attacks," he said as he explained why Symantec had amped its earlier warning. "Every Unix-based break-in that's not hand-crafted, in other words not with the attacker sitting at the keyboard during the attack, is made with a couple of different tools, and Metasploit is by far the most popular."

The Rise-developed, Metasploit-distributed exploit successfully attacks a fully-patched Mac OS X 10.4.10 system, added Symantec, and results in the attacker gaining root privileges on the Mac.

"There is a very high probability that attackers will attempt to leverage [the exploit] to compromise Apple users, especially those connected to wireless networks," said Symantec in a separate alert issued Wednesday to customers of its DeepSight Threat network. "Wireless networks are an especially high threat, because users' systems may be exposing the service that may otherwise be protected by a gateway firewall installed on a home network."

Symantec recommended that users disable the Windows Sharing service until Apple produces a patch. Technically-astute users, however, may be able to handle the more rigorous chore of compiling the latest version of Samba manually in lieu of waiting for Apple.

Apple, which has not updated Samba within Mac OS X since March 2005, did not respond to e-mail asking for comment.



Spend your money as you wish.......
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 11:00 AM by The Woodentop » Logged

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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.

The Woodentop

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« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2007, 10:57 AM »

I don't object to the computer talk, but it certainly doesn't belong in this thread, a thread that's likely to be of permanent use.

Could we move this stuff to an OT area where it belongs?  I think the thread should be separated at Richard's moment-of-silence post.  No blaming of Richard, but that's the beginning of the serious veering OT.

One of the things I've enjoyed about the new FOG is that I don't see a lot of whining about OT posts.  Here, a useful thread has been hijacked and I wouldn't blame the whiners.

Probably because this post counts as a whine.  Roll Eyes

Ned






UNBELIEVABLE! You're just as bad Ned! Jeez.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 11:00 AM by The Woodentop » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2007, 01:41 PM »

Overtime,
     Would you mind sharing where you bought your Blum hardware?  Thanks, great thread
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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2007, 01:16 AM »

  Thanks  mmo, I got my hardware from   http://www.ahturf.com/  and   http://www.specialtysupplies.com/  but there are dozens of suppliers.

 Roland, glad to hear your positive results. The domino and the pocket holes work very well together and make assembly easy. Much less work than rabbits (rebates) and dados and plenty strong. As long as they are not visible tops and bottoms no problem.  I got the idea from this forum somewhere.

 Thanks neoshed, agreed the metric and euro system is hard to beat. same goes for the ecodrill.

  Eli, no problem on the off topic, that's how I found Open Office.org - thanks Matt and also Acronis

Tomorrow we will work on drawers  Grin just kidding.  But I do see a base cabinet somewhere down the line incorporating the 32mm system with drawer construction and spacing with door placement.
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« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2007, 12:27 PM »

First, great tutorial.  I'm going to pick up an LR-32 this weekend, since I need to get some garage storage put together.  I've read a bunch of different LR-32 and Euro cabinet tutorials, and still have one question you (or someone here) might be able to answer. 

I noticed you use a Blum device for the cup holes in the door.  I've also noticed a lot of the tutorials referencing the problem with needing to offset the LR-32 by 16mm when drilling door cup holes.  But, doesn't the LR-32 come with a 16mm and 32mm offset?  Why not just swap offsets and drill the cups in the doors using the LR-32 and a 35mm bit?

Also, am I correct that using the LR-32 with the 32mm offset gives you the correct vertical alignment for the door hinge cup, but that the horizontal alignment of the hinge cup will vary based on the complicated tables in the Blum catalog?  In other words, you need the door thickness to determine the minimum reveal, then use the reveal to figure the "Bore," which can vary.  The hinge cup diameter, if I'm reading right, is 35mm, so you have to add 17.5mm to the "Bore" to get where the hole should be centered horizontally?  Given that most of us measure holes from the center, not the edge, am I having some sort of gross conceptual error?  Why the heck did Blum give "Bore" instead of "hole center offset from side" if the cup diameter is fixed?

Any insight appreciated.  I'm new to this--anxious to muck in and start, but really not wanting to blow a bunch of BB on dumb mistakes or complicate my life in a way I don't need too...
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« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2007, 06:20 PM »

  But, doesn't the LR-32 come with a 16mm and 32mm offset?  Why not just swap offsets and drill the cups in the doors using the LR-32 and a 35mm bit?

Ed that is how I do it, works great. See the links in Dan's reply, post #5.

Quote
Also, am I correct that using the LR-32 with the 32mm offset gives you the correct vertical alignment for the door hinge cup, but that the horizontal alignment of the hinge cup will vary based on the complicated tables in the Blum catalog?  In other words, you need the door thickness to determine the minimum reveal, then use the reveal to figure the "Bore," which can vary.  The hinge cup diameter, if I'm reading right, is 35mm, so you have to add 17.5mm to the "Bore" to get where the hole should be centered horizontally?  Given that most of us measure holes from the center, not the edge, am I having some sort of gross conceptual error?  Why the heck did Blum give "Bore" instead of "hole center offset from side" if the cup diameter is fixed?

You've got the concept right, 17.5mm plus the number in the chart with your reveal to find your center.

Quote
Any insight appreciated.  I'm new to this--anxious to muck in and start, but really not wanting to blow a bunch of BB on dumb mistakes or complicate my life in a way I don't need too...
Just make sure you try it out on scrap first. If you get into some trouble on the scrap just post the problems/questions you have here and someone will help out. Good luck.

 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 06:22 PM by Brice Burrell » Logged

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Overtime

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« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2007, 02:11 AM »

 Yep, what Brice said.   Wink

 edesilva says;
 "Given that most of us measure holes from the center, not the edge, am I having some sort of gross conceptual error?  Why the heck did Blum give "Bore" instead of "hole center offset from side" if the cup diameter is fixed?"

Most of the concealed hinge manufactures use the same kind of mm spec reference to help locate the cup in relation to the edge of the door.
Blum calls it bore distance or B, Hettich calls it cup distance or C. Hafele calls it Tab.  Grass America calls it drilling distance or DD but they do also include a cup center CC . This Grass chart uses the center of the cup hole in the specs and also has both metric and imperial numbers.

 Every thing you will need is in the LR 32-SYS.  The Blum drilling jig and the Mirko modifications with the rails are upgrades. Very nice to have but not a necessity.
When you get to using the LR 32 with some hinges you will see how it all works together.  Cool
 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 02:14 AM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2007, 08:37 PM »

This is a very helpful tutorial for me as I'm just learning about this system and I plan to build a series of storage cabinets for my basement.  But I'm  curious about something--your choice of softclose mechanism.  I've looked at the Blum site and some catalogs (eg Rockler, etc) and notice that there is a Blumotion device that just clips on top of the hinge.  So there would be no need to drill additional holes.  Could you have used these?
This is what I'm referring to:
http://www.blum.com/us/en/01/30/40/10/index.php
--Rob
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« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2007, 10:04 PM »

 Hi Rob,

    Yes I did consider that type also. And yes I could have used those on the hinges that I used. I had the opportunity to see the plunger type that I used in person (on a finished cabinet) and I liked the low profile of the design - unobtrusive.  I thought the clip on type was a little bulky. But not that bad, and the price is actually less on the one that I could have used  This and only one per door is needed for light ones. This is for 107 and 120 deg full overlay hinge. I ended up using the plunger piston type in the end.
 
  When using with a 170 full overlay hinge This One is required, note the the size of that thing.
   
   This a very good option and it is one that I never mentioned. It's good that you have found it and mention it here, thanks.
One thing to remember is that all of these Blumotion choices must be used with a SC - Self Close hinge. The FS - Free Swing type will not pull itself closed due to the resistance of the plunger.

  Here is another discussion on same topic with a focus on the Blum and other drilling jigs for the 3 hole cup pattern. http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1845.0
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:43 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2007, 11:12 PM »

     
   This a very good option and it is one that I never mentioned. It's good that you have found it and mention it here, thanks.
One thing to remember is that all of these Blumotion choices must be used with a SC - Self Close hinge. The FS - Free Swing type will not pull itself closed due to the resistance of the plunger.


Thanks for the reply.  Are all of the Blum clip-top hinges self close?  I've been looking at their site and haven't come across that distinction, but I've only really looked at clip-top.
Rob
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« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2007, 11:56 PM »

 See page 5 of the Blum Concealed Hinge Brochure, bottom of page. Shows choices, note Self Close prefix #s are 71 and free Swing is 70;
 
 Page 6 - table chart (center right) shows how Blum categorizes each hinge type and mounting method.
Press in type requires a special machine press,
Inserta is the type I used.

 There is a daunting amount of options almost infinite  Huh?. Just spend some time (lots) reading over the Hinge Brochure and soon you will be able to decode  Grin most of it.  You will also see-learn from the charts how to select the correct mounting plates to mate with the hinge and your project. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 11:58 PM by Overtime » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2007, 01:02 AM »

Thanks, I downloaded the catalog and I'll check those pages out.  And yes, it is very daunting, particularly for one who has never built with these hinges before.  All I want to do is make a bank of 4 euro style frameless cabinets run together, each out of 3/4" ply, with each cab having two doors that open like French doors from the middle.  So I'm guessing I want clip top, full overlay, self close, and will have to figure out which angle to use, noting that the Blumotion 973--the one that attaches to the hinge--will work with only certain angles.
--Rob
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« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2008, 08:37 AM »

Everyone,
I'm planning out a cabinetry project, and definitely want to use the Euro cabinet hardware.  Well, I began researching Blum products and Euro hinges and really like what I'm seeing.  But now I know what Overtime meant when he said, "daunting amount of options almost infinite..."  Of course, I like having options.

This excellent discussion has been really helpful.  This is the first reply since November, so if anyone has new ideas to add, please jump in!

Thanks,
Matthew
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vteknical

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« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2008, 01:02 AM »

Overtime,
Excellent information! 

Looks like you put a lot of thought and time into communicating the details.  Any chance of doing a Euro style Base cabinet in the future? 

Now I'm gonna have buy the Domino and LR-32 before April.

Thanks
Victor

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Overtime

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« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2008, 12:22 AM »

Thanks guys, I am glad that this info has been useful to those who plan to construct some frameless cabinets.
  Since I started this thread I have completed a few more uppers, and some open (no door) upper shelving. All done using the same methods. Having the tools and assembly jigs shown here really helps to make this process a breeze (as far as repeatability and  production goes) Everything takes time but at least the outcome will be a constant.

  I am now (or have been) planning some base cabinets that I will start in a few weeks. I have been reading up on the Blum drawer hardware. And now have another pile of "goodies" for some base cabinets. They include some 562H Tandem Plus Blumotion full ext slides. I was impressed by the hinge hardware used here, and now after handling these drawer slides I have just one word - Wow !  Going to use them for drawers and pullouts.

 I plan on doing another comprehensive (picture loaded, with lots of details  Grin) on the subject with a new thread. I hope to include from start to finish details including half blind drawer construction using the VS 600. And set up and use of the various blum drawer hardware components. But it will be about a month or two out.

 
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« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2008, 01:00 AM »

I am sure I won't be the only one looking forward to it.  Thanks for all the hard work Patrick.

Dave
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« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2008, 01:08 AM »

Patrick,

I'll be reading it!

Thanks,

Dan.
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James Biddle

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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2008, 06:35 PM »

Hi Rob,

    Yes I did consider that type also. And yes I could have used those on the hinges that I used. I had the opportunity to see the plunger type that I used in person (on a finished cabinet) and I liked the low profile of the design - unobtrusive.  I thought the clip on type was a little bulky. But not that bad, and the price is actually less on the one that I could have used  This and only one per door is needed for light ones. This is for 107 and 120 deg full overlay hinge. I ended up using the plunger piston type in the end.
 
  When using with a 170 full overlay hinge This One is required, note the the size of that thing.
   
   This a very good option and it is one that I never mentioned. It's good that you have found it and mention it here, thanks.
One thing to remember is that all of these Blumotion choices must be used with a SC - Self Close hinge. The FS - Free Swing type will not pull itself closed due to the resistance of the plunger.

  Here is another discussion on same topic with a focus on the Blum and other drilling jigs for the 3 hole cup pattern. http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1845.0


Overtime,
Great thread!  Question about your Blumotion location: it looks like you located the Blumotion for the Compact hinge recommendation (closer to the hinge) instead of the Clip Top hinge recommendation (further from the hinge).  Have you found your location to work better with Clip Top hinges?
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Terp

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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2008, 07:00 PM »

Love it, fantastic, keep going! These are the same I put in my last house. The only thing I DIDN'T like about them was they gather dust on top of the lower door rail, hard to clean. The next kitchen I do for us will be likely be flush panels with a shadow line. Love it. Fantastic job.

Dude that's kind of anal.  Are you Felix Unger?   Grin
That's the top edge of the bottom door stile, right?
All 1/4", huh.  Try beveling that edge next time. 
I know this because I had the same pet peeve. Cheesy
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Dusty man
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« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2008, 01:11 AM »

James, where did you find the "location" info for the plunger type Blumotion?  Thanks for the help in getting it right ! I have been waiting for feedback on that detail. It's an important detail that needs to be corrected.  My location is / was not correct.  Angry

 I had a minor problem, in that the 120 deg clip top hinge - when fully opened just bumps the tip of the plunger ever so slightly - (the inside edge of the door itself).  The 170 degree hinge - no problem at all.   The function and operation of both the blumotion and the doors were not affected on either hinge types. Smooth operation.

  When I made the first cabinet I set up and used a pair of 170 clip top full overlay. Using the plunger drilling guide bushing tool not knowing that there were specific "locations". I just pushed the guide up to the inside corner and drilled.  I installed the 170 hinges and presto it worked perfectly. No issues at all.  So I drilled them all at the same location. Then I used / installed the 120 clip top hinges and did not notice any thing wrong with the operation. But I finally saw the minor issue, it's too close to the hinge by about 1/8" or so.
 So I changed the location on my own by 1/4" or so.

I had some idea that the location was questionable. But some how over looked the info on the plunger location for compact and clip top.
 The operation of both the doors and plunger work so well that I did not consider anything other than a very minor adjustment on the location.

Just how far off are my locations ?   Huh? 
 
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« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2008, 10:31 AM »

Hi Patrick,
  Listen, Blum sells a small orange block for test fitting the Blumotion piston in different locations.  I don't like the piston on the door hinge itself as there are too many variances to consider.  They offer the pistons in three different strengths, & the first time I purchased 1 of each to play with. 
  I also prefer to make a small block of the same material as the cabinet interior for the piston.  I bore a hole into the front edge of a bloock which can be fastened across the inside top of the cabinet.  By placing the piston 3-4" from the strike edge of the door. the piston works fantastic.  You'll want to vary that position slightly though in order to make a large door behave like a smaller door does.  Usually I use the medium piston or even just the lightest strength.  It looks better in my opinion also to not have the piston piggy back on the hinge.
  This position allows the self closing hinge to reach the strongest part of it's retraction spring position, prior to meeting the resistance of the Blumotion pistons.
  Blum also sells mounts for the pistons to allow them to apply as I've described, only they are made of plastic.  One of those plastic mounts applies with double sided tape, don't ever use that one that way though.  The tape does not hold up & your customer will be calling you often.  Just make it from wood.  The orange test positioning block in the blum catalog is great too.  That you can use with just double sided tape, in order to find just the right spot to fasten the piston.
Good luck.
P.S. I think the result of these pistons is so cool, & my customers love em.  It's ok for a kitchen door to close with a slam, but not the dining room buffet doors!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 02:07 PM by Terp » Logged

Dusty man
James Biddle

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« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2008, 01:59 PM »

James, where did you find the "location" info for the plunger type Blumotion?  Thanks for the help in getting it right ! I have been waiting for feedback on that detail. It's an important detail that needs to be corrected.  My location is / was not correct.  Angry

 I had a minor problem, in that the 120 deg clip top hinge - when fully opened just bumps the tip of the plunger ever so slightly - (the inside edge of the door itself).  The 170 degree hinge - no problem at all.   The function and operation of both the blumotion and the doors were not affected on either hinge types. Smooth operation.

  When I made the first cabinet I set up and used a pair of 170 clip top full overlay. Using the plunger drilling guide bushing tool not knowing that there were specific "locations". I just pushed the guide up to the inside corner and drilled.  I installed the 170 hinges and presto it worked perfectly. No issues at all.  So I drilled them all at the same location. Then I used / installed the 120 clip top hinges and did not notice any thing wrong with the operation. But I finally saw the minor issue, it's too close to the hinge by about 1/8" or so.
 So I changed the location on my own by 1/4" or so.

I had some idea that the location was questionable. But some how over looked the info on the plunger location for compact and clip top.
 The operation of both the doors and plunger work so well that I did not consider anything other than a very minor adjustment on the location.

Just how far off are my locations ?   Huh? 
 

Check out the top of page 75 in the Concealed Hinges catalog (my .pdf file is dated 3/23/06).  They show the optimal locations there.  They show, and I've always located, the pistons close to or at the outer edge of the door, away from the Clip Top hinges.  I don't use the Compact hinges so I've never located them in the area that you did.
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James Biddle

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« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2008, 02:16 PM »

Hi Patrick,
  Listen, Blum sells a small orange block for test fitting the Blumotion piston in different locations.  I don't like the piston on the door hinge itself as there are too many variances to consider.  They offer the pistons in three different strengths, & the first time I purchased 1 of each to play with. 
  I also prefer to make a small block of the same material as the cabinet interior for the piston.  I bore a hole into the front edge of a bloock which can be fastened across the inside top of the cabinet.  By placing the piston 3-4" for the hinge edge of the door. the piston works fantastic.  You'll want to vary that position slightly though in order to make a large door behave like a smaller door does.  Usually I use the medium piston or even just the lightest strength.  It looks better in my opinion also to not have the piston piggy back on the hinge.
  This position allows the self closing hinge to reach the strongest part of it's retraction spring position, prior to meeting the resistance of the Blumotion pistons.
  Blum also sells mounts for the pistons to allow them to apply as I've described, only they are made of plastic.  One of those plastic mounts applies with double sided tape, don't ever use that one that way though.  The tape does not hold up & your customer will be calling you often.  Just make it from wood.  The orange test positioning block in the blum catalog is great too.  That you can use with just double sided tape, in order to find just the right spot to fasten the piston.
Good luck.
P.S. I think the result of these pistons is so cool, & my customers love em.  It's ok for a kitchen door to close with a slam, but not the dining room buffet doors!
I've never seen the orange block or the 3 different strengths listed in the catalog.  Where did you find them?

I've used both the wood spacer blocks and the face frame adapter in cabinets using a face frame.  Both work well, although I don't really want to be spending my time finishing a block.

But for frameless cabinets, I like using the zinc die-cast adapter (#970.55E1).  Looks a lot better than the plastic.  It shares the 32mm spacing and 37mm setback the the hinges use.  If you bore hinge holes on both sides of the cabinet sides, you can install the Blumotion opposite the hinge.  In addition to making both sides identical, it would also allow you to potentially reverse the door if your customer changes their mind.
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Terp

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« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2008, 02:52 PM »

  You're right, the zinc is a nice choice.  Hafele has these pistons as well, although I'm not sure they are blum.  Hold on, I'll open the hafele site....... They're not Blum, they are Salice.
 
  There, I attached the PDF catalog pages from Hafele for you. 

They're not Blum, they're called "Smoves".  I prefer them because, as I said, they can be mounted any where, & used with any hinge,or....  The orange block is shown as gray on the first page, but that's it.  Mine showed up as orange.
  I've installed these on doors mounted on "Classic Brass" butt hinges.  A pair of rare earth magnets close the door.  The Smove inside makes it all operate like magic.  Like I said, the lightest ones worked great for that.
  I also installed them behind a keyboard pull out, with accuride side mount tracks.  When the pullout was closed, it couldn't slam.  Therefore the keyboard stayed put.  That was a retrofit to please the customer, who didn't like the keyboard shifting.  I think those were the medium grade.
  The pdf's are available at Hafeleonline, as is the whole catalog.
My dad always said truly useful tools have a second usefullness.  Hidden at first & waiting to be discovered, like a screwdriver can open a can of paint, for instance.  gotta love Dad, Cheesy   Hardware is the same thing.  The more uses you come up with the better,  therefore, the more flexible your hardware choices are, the better as well.

* Smove pg. 1.pdf (57.14 KB - downloaded 178 times.)
* Smove pg. 2.pdf (63.98 KB - downloaded 124 times.)
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« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2008, 01:04 AM »

Thanks James and Terp !

The specs are no longer in the concealed hinge brochure. I found them in the Blumotion for doors brochure - go figure.  Roll Eyes

!! 4mb file
http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/1077_bmn4d_b/1077_bmn4d_b.pdf

Page 16 and 17

The part is 970A - seems I'm about 1" off as the specs say 32 mm from the inside corner of the upper hinge portion of the box. (for 0mm mounting plates and overlay doors) Same general location of where it is.  Grin


I will edit and update the info with the correct piston location information.  Cool

 quote from Terp "This position allows the self closing hinge to reach the strongest part of it's retraction spring position, prior to meeting the resistance of the Blumotion pistons." and
"By placing the piston 3-4" from the strike edge of the door. the piston works fantastic.  You'll want to vary that position slightly though in order to make a large door behave like a smaller door does."

I see the cause and effect of the optimum location of the piston.   Wink 

I like the Blum spec location because it is just far into the corner of the box that is goes unnoticed and is nearly invisible. (as long as it works correctly)


« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 02:21 AM by Overtime » Logged

Patrick
Terp

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« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2008, 12:53 AM »

Thanks James and Terp !



I like the Blum spec location because it is just far into the corner of the box that is goes unnoticed and is nearly invisible. (as long as it works correctly)





  I usually install the piston in a hole drilled the cabinet edge when possible.  No one has ever found them unsightly, & I find this installation is simple, once the location is determined.  Thats why I use the movable test block. 
   If you've ever seen the "touch latches" & "magnetic catches" we all used for years, in cabinets, the improvement is remarkable.  You just can't hide most door latch hardware.  These are quite minimal.
  Being able to adjust the position & the strength of the piston, with the smoves, I find to be a great advantage.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 12:57 AM by Terp » Logged

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NMacK

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« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2008, 10:42 AM »

Hi
I am unable to view any of the photos in the article; little red cross in a block in right hand corner where pic should be.  Is this due to the settings on my computer?  Is the article available in pdf?  Any assistance would be appreciated.
Thanks
 NMacK
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mhoy

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« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2008, 03:20 PM »

Patrick: This is a great 'How-to'.  Looking forward to the base cabinets stuff.

NMacK: All the images work for me, (which isn't much help to you).  If you are on a PC/Linux try right clicking on the image, perhaps some more info will come up as to why it didn't load.

Mark

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sandy

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« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2011, 05:10 PM »

Thanks for the tutorial, but I have a question...  It looks like you inset the 1/4" back by 1/2" to allow for the thickness of the nailers, but then you attached a 3/4" cleat to the nailers.  Doesn't that mean that when you ultimately hang the cabinets on the wall that the sides will be spaced 3/4" from the wall?  Is that intentional?  Did you intend to put some type of trim piece over that opening?  Did I miss something?
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« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2011, 07:12 AM »

Overtime. Wow what a great tutorial. Easy to follow. We will have to make you the euro king !  Except your in Iowa !!! Lol do they know about metric?  Lol

Great job. Do a mini video series now
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« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2011, 05:43 PM »

Any chance you're planning on turning your guide into a pdf?
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« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2011, 10:45 AM »

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base_images/ms/Process32_041204.pdf
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« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2011, 03:46 PM »



gold dust  Big Grin
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