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Author Topic: Euro Cabinets 101-2 A Beginner's Guide  (Read 37790 times)
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Dave Ronyak

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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2007, 11:27 PM »

Dave,

Vista!?!   Oh noooooooo, Dave.  Shocked   (We will now have a moment of silence for Dave.)  May he rest in peace!   Cry

Perhaps it's not too late to ask for a copy of XP.  Much better OS, IMO.

Dan.

Thanks, Dan, you know all too well of my PC problems, which led to purchase my new Dell Inspiron which was offered only with Vista.  But ... Matthew may have provided some solutions to try.  All the photos are showing up perfectly at this moment.

Dave R.

Dave R.
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Overtime

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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 12:01 AM »

  With the case woodworking complete we'll get to the hardware and doors.



 We"ll install the Blum # 173H710 cam adjustable hinge mounting plates. An easy process, small arrows point outward towards the door. The plastic dowels fit perfectly in the 5mm holes and while tightening the screws they expand while gripping the fixture down flat.



 Using the Blumotion locating and drilling jig is a rush.  Smiley  We need to drill a 10mm (25/64) hole 2" deep into the edge of the ply. This helps keep the bit straight. Steady and light pressure. Have the bondo ready.  Grin  No it's not that bad.

Locating the piston / plunger Update Detailed information on locating the plunger 970A can be found on the Blumotion for doors brochure. (3.26mb file) http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/1077_bmn4d_b/1077_bmn4d_b.pdf  Page 16 and 17.

There are many other soft close choices including the snap onto the standard hinge type such as the 973A. No drilling or special tools required.
There is a Blumotion option for just about any application.  Pick the model and check the specs to match with hardware.

The installed location shown is off by about an inch. The correct location per Blum specs, using the combination of 0mm mounting plates and overlay doors should be 32mm from the inside corner of the cabinet,  in the same general location but a little furher away from hinge.



Then we'll tap the Soft Close plunger down into place. We have one per door, upper hinge side - right and left on the front edge of the top panel.

 That completes the case and now onto the doors.
 
   Plenty of options here. I will use a stile and rail set by Festool. I get my door dimensions by the using the actual outside case measurements. And since I will have a double door I'll split it in half and I'll make my doors so as to have no gap and no reveal. We're using Full Overlay hinges. After door completion I will create a door gap by trimming the mating edge of each door a bit, 1/32" or so each. And if I wanted a little reveal I will still make the door full size at this time. 
   Here is the Festool set that I used #491129 stile bit and #491130 rail bit.



 The stock was machined on a Jessem router table. A slow speed was used and plowed out the profile in one big gulp. (soft pine) With a second pass to clean up. One minor issue or comment on the set: the center gap is less than 1/4" by enough that for my application I had to widen the gaps of all the parts a bit to receive the 1/4" panel that I used in the center of the doors. Some very minor sanding before assembly to clean up fuzz. The profile is smooth and pleasing to the eye. Nice looking set. The stile and rail stock was 3/4" clear pine and sized at 2 1/4"
  If using slab doors I would tape only the hinge side of each door and leave the other three edges of each door unfinished until fitting is complete.

When the doors are ready we will drill the three hole hinge cup pattern in the back side of each door, and then fit them.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 01:07 AM by Overtime » Logged

Patrick
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2007, 07:08 AM »

Here I have a Cleat with a 45 deg bevel on it. It is on top with the back side all glued up and ready for placement. Dominos just because I could. They are all at the middle wide setting Glue dripping ready to go. Brad nails were also used. Think it will hold ?  Grin


For this application, it would maybe have been a bit sturdier if you had hewn the cabinet from a lightning-struck oak, then bronzed it.



I love your work, thanks for this thread+pix
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Overtime

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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2007, 12:52 PM »

 Or a CNC machine starting with a 13" thick slab  Grin

Dave, I hope you are getting to see the pics OK. They are coming directly from Photobucket not the gallery, as I have not yet figured out how to ref the link and view with a preview as I attempt to edit  Roll Eyes.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 02:29 PM by Overtime » Logged

Patrick
Dave Ronyak

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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2007, 12:57 PM »

Or a CNC machine starting with a 12" thick slab  Grin

Dave, I hope you are getting to see the pics OK. They are coming directly from Photobucket not the gallery, as I have not yet figured out how to ref the link and view with a preview as I attempt to edit  Roll Eyes.

Overtime,  the photos were coming through excellently last night on my home PC.  Thanks for your excellent, detailed description.  Soon I will have no more excuses and will have to make some hanging cabinets for my garage/shop.  And getting rid of some ugly old storage racks will make my wife very happy.

Dave R.
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2007, 02:53 PM »

An outstanding thread. Nice work telling the step-by-step. I know well how difficult that is. Keep em coming. We will never have to much of that.
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Overtime

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2007, 03:16 PM »

  The doors are ready  Smiley

 My two doors have been built and assembled full size, together side by side they are the same size as the box outer dimensions.



Two straight edge boards were clamped to the assembly table to form a quick squaring jig.



 The most important size here is the hight of our doors at 800 mm, same as the case sides. We will mark a line at 96 mm from the bottom and top of each door. If you are using slab or flat doors have your edge tape on only this edge at this point.
 
   Whatever method you use to drill the three hole hinge cup pattern the 96 mm mark will always put the hinge cup assembly holes dead center in line with the 5 mm (system holes) that were drilled on the side panels at 32 mm Center to Centers.

    Another key measurement is the set back of the hinge cup hole. Where do we start ? How far from the edge of the door will the beginning of the hole be ? Refer to your hinge specs.
 
   The distance we use here (5 mm) will put the door edge (when closed) flush with the cabinet side with no reveal or over hang. From this point I can adjust the reveal using the adjustment screws on the hinge itself.

   

The small orange things on the Ecodrill are adjustable tab blocks that are used to change the set back, in - out from the edge of the door. I"m using the 5mm setting.



Now we can begin to adjust and size the door just remember not to mess with the hinge cup edge of the doors.






« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 04:12 PM by Overtime » Logged

Patrick
Overtime

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2007, 03:42 PM »

 We'll put the hinges on and start the finish trimming. Wow they fit and line up  Shocked



Adjust the doors so they are flush with the side of the case as a starting point. Now you will see that you will need to create the gap for the two doors to operate properly.




I shaved an equal tad off the mating edges of each door (Remember not to change the hinge cup edge) and then edge sanded.



 Then I just shaved the tops and bottoms using the stop on the MFT. Here you can create more of a reveal if so desired. Those using slab doors can complete the edge banding process after fitting the doors.



 With some quick and easy adjustments you will be able to fine tune the door gap and all around fit with amazing accuracy.



The gap can be closed to a razor thin parallel line or widened to suit your taste.

Closing comments to follow.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 04:00 PM by Overtime » Logged

Patrick
greg mann

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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2007, 04:26 PM »

This has been great, Patrick. I can't wait for the post where you say' "Come back tomorrow and we'll do drawers!!"
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Greg Mann
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2007, 04:40 PM »

Patrick,
Nice job. Have you always used the Blum Ecodrill?  I have the 1400 router, but no guide rail with holes.  I have been debating on getting the LR 32-Set or the LR 32-SYS. I have other blum products and like them a lot. Do you know how  the 35mm bit works with the LR 32-SYS. I've heard that some people have problems with it burning using the router. Any thoughts or recommendations on which system to lean toward would be helpful.
Thanks, Mike
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Brice Burrell

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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2007, 04:53 PM »

  Hey Mike, I can tell you that the LR32 sys is a great investment if you have some cabinets to make. I use the LR32 to drill hinge cup holes with the Festool 35mm bit. The bit is pretty aggressive, so a slower speed should be used on the router. I use the 1 or 2 speed setting with good results (no burning). There is a lot of companies making different hinge location jigs right now, but my thought is why bother to spend the extra money when the LR32 will do the job just as well. My 2 cents.

Patrick, I would also like to hear your opinion.
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greg mann

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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2007, 06:11 PM »

Patrick,

I guess the plywood is thinner around my neck of the woods. I just bought the same bit set and the groove was perfect for the 1/4 inch plywood I had on hand. Who knows what the next sheet will be like. I did need to re-shim the bearing on the rail bit to get a better fit on the joint. The tongue was .010 (.25mm) thinner than the groove. I like the look of these joints. In pine like your doors it would look right at home in a more rustic setting while in a fine close grained wood like maple or cherry it could have a very modern look. I am looking forward to seeing how the pattern can be dressed up or down with various panel treatments. A nice refreshing look. Thanks again for all the work you have put into this. John was right when he commented on how much it takes to make a presentation flow so well.

Added thought: Have you tried the special roundover bit that goes with this rail and style set? It allows for even more variability.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 06:13 PM by greg mann » Logged

Greg Mann
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Overtime

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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2007, 06:18 PM »

 Good points guys, and it brings up the hinge selection used here. I used Blum hinges that require 8mm holes along with the 35 mm cup for the Inserta type hinge. So one would need to drill 8 mm holes for those. A hinge requiring screws for mounting would replace the 8 mm holes needed.
  The LR 32 SYS comes with every thing needed (less the rail) to get all this done, as Brice points out. Using a screw mounted hinge cup assembly. The only draw backs are the set up for the cup drilling and not being able to drill the 8 mm holes if you wanted to use the Inserta type hinge.

  A big stumbling block for me was the hinge cup hole assembly process, I just didn't get it. And the hinge hardware ? How come the hole distance is not 32 mm ? Why are some of them 8 mm ? what happened to the 5 mm ? What happened to the 32 mm ? Why is there not an 8 mm bit in the LR 32 SYS set ?  How far from the edge of the door do you start ? What product line hardware ? So I got the LR 32 SYS and only after Mirko's post did it fall into place for me.  After playing around with the components of it I slowly caught on. But I was not satisfied with the hinge cup drilling process.

 I have looked very closely at the Hettich offerings including their cabinet program that automatically suggests & selects the proper hardware options as you go. But I found the Blum product line to be more accessible.

  I chose the Blum Ecodrill partly out of frustration but mainly because it was the fastest way for me to get beyond the stumbling point of this process. And also because of the hinge type that I wanted to use : Inserta and various others that utilise the hole pattern.  I found Blum's information and tooling "understandable". And the tool itself. It is like the Festools, great accuracy for small portable tool. Doing the same process that multi thousand $ machines do.  

  I would only get the LR 32 set and save the $ to get a hinge boring jig if I were to do it again. I have had the Ecodrill only for a month or so. And after I got it I was drilling the doors within seconds, perfect every time right out of the box. Since the pieces fell into place for me, I have been cranking out upper cabinets like crazy. Since it is all fresh and new to me I thought I could show the process here. I'm glad to see that this info may help others that plan to make some themselves.        
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 10:11 PM by Overtime » Logged

Patrick
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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2007, 06:27 PM »

 Greg , glad to hear your opinions on the bit set. Your comments reflect my thoughts of the "look" perfectly. That other bit is on my wish list and I'm looking forward to using that. Thanks for the compliments.
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Patrick
Doug Anders

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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2007, 09:10 PM »

Great job. This is a great thread.

By the way, what is the part number for the special roundover bit that goes with this rail and style set?

Thanks!
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Overtime

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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2007, 12:06 AM »

 Thanks Doug, We're talking about Festool Panel Raising bit # 491138.

An outstanding thread. Nice work telling the step-by-step. I know well how difficult that is. Keep em coming. We will never have to much of that.

Thanks John, I have been reading your site Woodshopdemos for a couple of years at least. My introduction to "Festool" was from your presentations on them. And of coarse with the help of your assistants, the tool learning curve process is made easy. 
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Patrick
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2007, 01:43 AM »

 The 32 mm system used on this project is just a simple version of the many uses of it. But if you stay within the boundaries of a few basic measurements used here you can get similar results.

   The key measurements are the 5 mm holes spaced 32 mm from CL to CL located 37 mm from the front edge of the board. This was done using the LR 32 set. The 96 mm distance from the bottom and tops of the doors will always put your hinge hardware in alignment with the "system holes" on the side panels so long as your sides and doors are the same length of any size increment of 32 mm

  Door hinge cup hole pattern drilling (35 mm cup hole and placement) can be achieved with the LR 32 SYS complete set. But plan on using a screw mounted hinge cup assembly. And a little more time for set up and bit changes. There are many makers of concealed hinge cabinet door hardware. And there are also many drilling jigs that will speed up and simplify this step. It can also be performed at the drill press at little cost.  The Blum Ecodrill is a very expensive tool and is not necessary to complete this process. But if you will be making cabinets and casework requiring concealed hinge hardware this is one of many options.   

  Using this method makes everything Work. After completing your first cabinet box using this method you will see the benefit of the 32 mm system. You can make your sides and doors any length you like but if you do not use increments of 32 mm for your door and side parts you will have a little more work to do. But making changes to customise your needs will be much clearer after completing at least one simple project like this, staying within the boundaries of the system. Alterations such as reveals and overlays will fall into place as the hands on use of the process and hardware will show.

  I found it interesting that while I have a well equipped shop including a sliding miter saw station, I have gravitated towards the Festools. They were used for almost every step in this project. The MFT was a main feature in most of the machining of the parts. It was not planned to be an all Festool project but the tools work so well together. The quality of both the tools and the results they perform is outstanding. I find that they speed up the proficiency process in a smooth and reliable way.
 Also interesting was my use of the combination of both Metric and Imperial numerical systems as I slowly adapt to the mm system.

 Thanks to John Lucas, and Jerry Work for the great write ups on the Festools and also to Mirko and Brice and to all that continue to share and expand the knowledge base here. For those that have not had the opportunity to work side by side with a professional craftsman as in an apprenticeship setting, this is the next best thing.

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greg mann

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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2007, 10:45 AM »

Thanks Doug, We're talking about Festool Panel Raising bit # 491138.

Actually Doug, I was talking about roundover bit #491131 but I certainly would like to see the profile from the panel raising bit that Patrick is referring to. The #491131 roundover produces the same ovoid shape as the rail and style bit with which Patrick made his doors. He left that treatment off, which goes to show that one can create a lot of variety with this set even before the panel is considered.

Patrick, If you have that panel raiser I would certainly like to see the profile it creates. The catalog pics are too hard to discern.
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Greg Mann
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2007, 10:59 AM »

Thanks Doug, We're talking about Festool Panel Raising bit # 491138.

An outstanding thread. Nice work telling the step-by-step. I know well how difficult that is. Keep em coming. We will never have to much of that.

Thanks John, I have been reading your site Woodshopdemos for a couple of years at least. My introduction to "Festool" was from your presentations on them. And of coarse with the help of your assistants, the tool learning curve process is made easy. 

OT - very nice words and thoughts for this old guy.  When I am finding it more and more difficult to keep it going, words of encouragement like yours does do good. (I think that is English.)
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Dave Rudy

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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2007, 11:30 AM »

words of encouragement like yours does do good. (I think that is English.)

British maybe, or Australian?   You're hanging around this forum too much John.  Need more time with assistants.
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Remodelboy

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« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2007, 03:24 AM »

Patrick,

If you ask a dozen woodworkers how to build a cabinet, you'll get 13 opinions.  I build cabinets using several different techniques and I always have my eyes open for a better way.  I really like how you have summarized the 32 mm system of building. 

I just finished using one of the techniques that you described.  I used the Domino to help with alignment and then pocket screws to hold the case together.  It worked perfectly the first time and there was very little dust compared to using rabbets and dadoes for alignment.  It is always slower to try something different than one is used to, but this is something that I think I will use often.  And it helps justify my Domino purchase.

I will continue to scrutinize your thread and try to incorporate more of your ideas.  Thanks for the excellent documentation.

Roland
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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2007, 04:38 PM »

For those of us too destitute (from other recent purchases) to buy a Domino, could decent results be achieved using dados & rabbits?  I read somewhere that using these in plywood weakens it a bit, and shouldn't be done.  Any advice?  Thanks.
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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2007, 04:48 PM »

For those of us too destitute (from other recent purchases) to buy a Domino, could decent results be achieved using dados & rabbits?  I read somewhere that using these in plywood weakens it a bit, and shouldn't be done.  Any advice?  Thanks.

Hi,

    Well yes, technically it weakens it a bit, any wood, plywood, or material will be weakened were the dado is. Simply because       it is going to be thinner in that spot and more able to flex. But you will be filling in the dado or rabbet with the piece that is being joined to it. So I think that any weakening is pretty much nullified. It can't bend at the dado with the other piece of wood in the way (hope that makes sense).  I use dados and rabbets on plywood constructed cabinets and bookcases all the time with no trouble.

Seth
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Garry

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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2007, 07:55 PM »

Hi,

    Well yes, technically it weakens it a bit, any wood, plywood, or material will be weakened were the dado is. Simply because       it is going to be thinner in that spot and more able to flex. But you will be filling in the dado or rabbet with the piece that is being joined to it. So I think that any weakening is pretty much nullified. It can't bend at the dado with the other piece of wood in the way (hope that makes sense).  I use dados and rabbets on plywood constructed cabinets and bookcases all the time with no trouble.

Seth

What you said makes perfect sense, and is in line with what I thought should be true, but I thought I would ask.  Thanks for the response.
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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2007, 08:09 PM »

I used dados and rabbets on cabinets for over 20 years. Never had a problem. The Domino just makes things so much easier and faster, IMO. Its one of those tools (the TS55 being another) that I really wish I had ten years ago. I didn't think I was going to want a Domino when they first hit the market (I said so here many times), but now that I have one, I can't put it down. I use it for everything. I know they are expensive and affording one is tough for a lot of folks. However, save those pennies and get it done one day, you'll be so glad you did.
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« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2007, 06:42 PM »

I tried in vain to get somebody to use one to flat-stud a wall today. We used a framing nailer and a BFH instead. Ugly Angry

I like the Domino as much as the next guy. However, using it for any kind of framing is just a bit over the top, don't ya think? If I used dominoes for all of my framing work, I'd either have to get some wealthier customers, or go bankrupt. Its a fast tool, but it ain't anywhere near as fast as a framing nailer, or even a BFH.
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« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2007, 09:07 PM »

Quote from: Overtime link=
 Also interesting was my use of the combination of both Metric and Imperial numerical systems as I slowly adapt to the mm system.[/quote

Brilliant thread mate.

Coming over from the UK I find working in imperial frustrating. Of course if you mention metric on most forums you usually have to duck for cover. The Euro system is so well thought out it's hard to beat.

I personally think if you're building even just a few cabinets the blum jig is worth while, especially if you're looking at the overall cost of things ( you pay 400ish for a ts55 )

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« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2007, 02:40 PM »

Dave,

Vista!?!   Oh noooooooo, Dave.  Shocked   (We will now have a moment of silence for Dave.)  May he rest in peace!   Cry

Perhaps it's not too late to ask for a copy of XP.  Much better OS, IMO.

Dan.

I thought Festool owners had to have Macs (sorry about that as I'm typing it on a PC! but I am as addicted to Apples as I am to Festools)
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The Woodentop

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« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2007, 02:41 PM »

What a load of bollocks! Festool make brilliant tools. Mac make toys for boys.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 02:45 PM by The Woodentop » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2007, 04:04 PM »

Apple....    you can buy better but you can't pay more!

Fred
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