Author Topic: Installing LED strips and other LED issues  (Read 4253 times)

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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« on: April 16, 2019, 01:06 PM »
A sister thread on LED lighting:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/routing-a-channel-for-led-lights-using-the-mfs/msg577072/#msg577072


I'll try not to get too nerdy on this subject but that will be tough to achieve.  [smile]

The first part of this post will be installing the LED strips in the stretchers I made for some cabinets.

The next posts will just be an assemblage of various information I've acquired in the 15+ years of working with LEDs. I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but having worked with them for such a long time I've stumbled upon some interesting items.

As the saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while".

Feel free to chime in.

Here's just a little bit of background information to put the ensuing conversation in proper context.

The bane of all LEDs is heat. The magic temperatures for cooking are 40ºF and 140ºF.  For LEDs the magic temperature is under 150ºC. The junction temperature of the LED must be kept to a MAX of 150ºC, preferably a lot less. As an example, If an LED has a rated 60,000 hour life at 125ºC its life is reduced to only 10,000 hours at 150ºC and anything in excess of that just creates a rapid downward spiral.

Here's a cross section of an LED. The junction is the pink area and the thick green area is whatever substrate the LED is mounted on. It may be a circuit board or it may be tape. There can be quite a distance between the LED junctions and the heatsink. So if the heatsink is measuring 150ºC, the junctions will likely be over 180ºC. Keep it cool, the cooler the better.



So with that out of the way let's install the LEDs in the stretchers. I've learned/prefer to mount all the LEDs on some type of heat sink. I know some manufacturers say to just peel off the double stick tape liner and stick the tape to any surface you want. That may be ok on metal surfaces but on wood surfaces you're adhering the LEDs to an insulator. More on this later with some interesting photos to share.

Also, if you have a problem with the LEDs down the road it's simple to remove the LEDs with a few screws rather than unpeeling them and then having to remove the adhesive that's left behind.

For this project I used Lighting Ever LEDs on a roll. They're 2835 LEDs and burn at 4100K so they're very efficient. They produce a lot of light with little current draw. The 2 sided tape used is 3M VHB so they will stick to a lot of different surfaces.

I used 1/2" wide by 1/16" thick aluminum flats for the heatsink. Here's a photo of the aluminum being marked for the hole punching stage.



Here's a Roper Whitney hand punch in a bench mount that's used to punch the 4 attachment holes.






A couple of good wipes with IPA and the aluminum is ready for the LEDs.



I used a 2mm gauge block to evenly space the heatsink from the channel. I placed the gauge block behind every screw hole and then drove in the screws. The gauge block prevented the heatsink from moving as the screws are driven home.



The LED assemblies are held in with 4 each #4 screws.



The Diode LED covers are snapped into place.




 
Here they are fired up. You can see they provide more than enough light for a drawer.  [big grin]  I turned one on and let it burn for 48 hours continuously. The room temperature was 67ºF, the heatsink temperature after 48 hours was 74ºF.  [cool]



« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 12:26 PM by Cheese »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1608
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2019, 02:12 PM »
Time for questions? 
What is the tie bar?  (the heat sink or the cross member you're attaching the heat sink to)
Can you drill through the tape or does it have sufficient wiring embedded that it should be left intact?
When do we get to the part about the switches?  (waits impatiently)   [smile]

Thanks for writing this up!
-Raj

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 992
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2019, 02:17 PM »
Very nice and good pics as usual.

The Roper/Whitney is nice but I was hoping for at least a 25 ton ironworker.  [wink]

Ron

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3969
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 04:17 PM »
Thanks for going nerdy on the led strips.
I didn’t do any research so I’m just now learning about the need for heat sinks.

Offline Russty

  • Posts: 18
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 06:24 PM »
Me too. Im planning on using led strips to illuminate above a "broken glass" ceiling in my ensuite. Ive had led strips explode and catch fire in the past which worried me, they were covered in a kind of clear plastic sheath which i guess insulated them. I guess i need to find some aluminum, we only have aluminium in the uk, will that do the job?  [tongue]

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2019, 01:10 AM »
Time for questions? 
What is the tie bar?  (the heat sink or the cross member you're attaching the heat sink to)
Can you drill through the tape or does it have sufficient wiring embedded that it should be left intact?
When do we get to the part about the switches?  (waits impatiently)   [smile]

Raj, The stretcher (tie-bar) is the piece of 18 mm thick BB that ties together both vertical sides of the cabinet and it also houses the LED lighting.

Best not to drill through the tape as it is the "circuit board" that provides juice to the LEDs. Keep it intact.  [smile]

By popular demand, the microswitch section will be the next entry (even though the author waits impatiently to be nerdy on other aspects of LEDs).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 12:27 PM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2019, 01:31 AM »
@rvieceli

An ironworker...I wish that were so Ron [sad]

I do have what may be a poor cousin to the Ironworker....but it was a little large to put into a bench mount.  [eek]





The 1/4" hole in 1/4" thick steel is still pretty impressive even in todays terms.



« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 02:05 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2019, 01:44 AM »
Thanks for going nerdy on the led strips.
I didn’t do any research so I’m just now learning about the need for heat sinks.

Cooling is your friend Michael...I can't repeat this enough. I've spent 30 years of my life immersed in the semiconductor field and LEDs  are nothing more than another item grown on a silicon chip. There are 2 things that will take them out, too much current and too much heat.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 992
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2019, 08:01 AM »
@Cheese my son just started a new job at a fabrication place a couple towns over. They have a 160 ton press with all kinds of spiffy high tech controls on it.

Ron

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2260
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2019, 10:08 AM »
Me too. Im planning on using led strips to illuminate above a "broken glass" ceiling in my ensuite. Ive had led strips explode and catch fire in the past which worried me, they were covered in a kind of clear plastic sheath which i guess insulated them. I guess i need to find some aluminum, we only have aluminium in the uk, will that do the job?  [tongue]
   I thought it was AL-U-MIN-UM.... at least it sounds that way when I hear the word coming out of a Brit's mouth..... [wink]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2019, 10:50 AM »
I've had led strips explode and catch fire in the past which worried me, they were covered in a kind of clear plastic sheath which i guess insulated them. I guess i need to find some aluminum, we only have aluminium in the uk, will that do the job?  [tongue]

I think the LEDs you're referring to were of the waterproof variety. They're covered in a clear, half-round vinyl cover. I'll have more to say on those later.

Well as leaky points out AL-U-MIN-IUM is actually the preferred material for heatsinks as it has better thermal conductivity. But because it's next to impossible to find in the states, we have to settle for the poor cousin of it...plain old aluminum.   [poke]

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2019, 11:06 AM »
@Cheese my son just started a new job at a fabrication place a couple towns over. They have a 160 ton press with all kinds of spiffy high tech controls on it.

Ron, it always amazes me how much capitol needs to be invested in starting a metal fab shop. If you want to be a carpenter spending $10,000 gets you going in the right direction. For metal fab, $10,000 gets you a TIG, a welding table and maybe a decent drill press.  [eek]

That's the reason I usually shop the used market for many metal fab items. Metal fab shops open and metal fab shops close every day. There are a lot of items that were purchased and never used before the doors were shuttered.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
2. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 01:05 PM »
When I started this project I decided the easiest/slickest method to actuate the LED lighting was using an encapsulated reed switch actuated by a rare earth magnet counterbored into the rear of the drawer. The ONE sample I rigged up worked perfectly. Here's a "mini drawer" I fabricated to determine the proper placement of each reed switch/magnet pairing. That's a magnet underneath the blue tape.



So, flying high from my success, I purchased $120 of reed switches and  magnets. I then installed 5 of them in a cabinet and used the "mini drawer" to functionally test the setup.


 
Well ONE sample does not a design of experiments make.  [crying]  Of the 5 reed switches I installed, 2 always worked properly but 3 of them would actuate but would never shut off unless you hit them with a screwdriver handle. I believe it was the high level of in-rush current drawn by the LEDs that was "welding" the reed switch conductors together. Then when you rapped them with the screwdriver, you'd break the weld and they would spring apart. 

I'm sure there's an electronic work-around for this issue but that's several levels above my pay grade.

So back to old tech microswitches. They're cheap and reliable and have a typical life span of 1 million cycles. I purchased these from Amazon for $8 for a pack of 5. The reed switches were $4 each. This option really does work well and it's something I'll never have to revisit in my lifetime.



In this view you can see the "mini drawer" pushed forward to expose the small hole needed for the self-closing Blumotion slides.



Here's a shot of the XURUI microswitch along with the proper size quick connect ends. While 1/4" wide is common for most electrical items, microswitches use 3/16" wide connectors. These are from Digi-Key. While I would have preferred purchasing Honeywell microswitches because they're only about 50 cents more and they're local, Mouser was out of stock at the time. Omron is another good brand to look at.



Here's an overall shot of one side of the cabinet.



Photos of the European terminal strip, the Molex wire connection and the Altec terminal jumpers.






Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2655
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2019, 08:04 PM »
Nice work!  Thanks for the tutorial!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 09:42 PM »
Nice work!  Thanks for the tutorial!

Thanks Neil...this thread is nowhere from being finished. I plan to add to it a little everyday as that’s how I learned about LEDs...a little everyday.  [smile]

The downside is that it is robbing time for me to learn Fushion 360 and to fire up that Shaper.  [crying] [crying]

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2655
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2019, 10:37 PM »
Combine those interests.


I make these LED-lit nightlights for baby gifts.  All cut with the Shaper.  I've done them with painted as well as natural bases. 


The LED kits I buy from Amazon as well as the cast acrylic sheets. 


Lights are multi-colored which add entertainment value as the babies grow up and want to learn their colors.  And wireless remote control.



Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
3. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2019, 11:11 PM »
So one of the more obscure terminologies with using LEDs is that they need a "Driver" to be functional. In layman's terms a "driver" is nothing more than a power supply. It's usually a 12 volt or 24 volt solid state transformer. For the most part it is encapsulated in a plastic housing which will give it a certain amount of water protection. They'll typically have an IP (Ingress Protection) rating from IP 62 to IP 68. An IP 68 rating is defined by the official words "Protected from long term immersion up to a specified pressure and totally protected from dust ingress."

They are certainly not your old school ventilated power supply. They are inexpensive and bomb proof. I've had 2 each Triad 40 watt power supplies powering the outside garden lights for the last 12 years. That includes 20+ fence lights, 30+ garden luminaries and 5 spot lights.
The Triad power supplies are controlled by 2 photo sensors. One for the front yard lighting and one for the back yard. They turn the LEDs on at dusk and off at dawn. The total cost per month is around $1.50.
And the outside scene at nite is brilliant. It's a wonderful world to walk into at night and it's also a wonderful deterrent to when someone thinks that what you own is what they need to own. [big grin]










I prefer using Meanwell drivers for interior LED lighting. They are also recommended by Diode LED for driving their LEDs. They are inexpensive, small, well sealed and reliable. They come in a plethora of wattages. The fewer watts, the smaller the package.

https://led.meanwell.com

When I redid the one side of the kitchen 5 years ago I knew I wanted some under counter lighting task lighting so I added an electrical box in the wall. I placed a small, $10 Mean Well 12 watt driver in the electrical box. The 2 leads exiting the enclosure drive a Diode LED light bar under the cabinet and a strip of Diode LED Ultra Blaze on a heat sink placed in the countertop.






The heat sink is 1" x 1/8" aluminum flat. It's attached to the countertop using traditional machine screws so everything is flush.





« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 10:14 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2019, 11:34 PM »
Combine those interests.

I make these LED-lit nightlights for baby gifts.  All cut with the Shaper.  I've done them with painted as well as natural bases. 

The LED kits I buy from Amazon as well as the cast acrylic sheets. 

Lights are multi-colored which add entertainment value as the babies grow up and want to learn their colors.  And wireless remote control.


Nice stuff Neil...you continue to surprise and delight. I just wish I could wrap my head around Fushion 360...I'd be a new person.  [smile]

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 43
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2019, 02:01 AM »
The electronic equivalent of the reed switch would be a hall effect sensor, coupled to a relay (probably the simplest and could handle a variety of current loads. Mosfets would be an alternative to the relay.)

The circuitry is quite simple, but it would be a bit more of a fiddle than the microswitches.

The other alternative would be to use the reed switch to trigger a relay, and then have the relay handle the higher current to power the LEDS. Again, a few more components, but you wouldn't have the reeds singeing themselves together.

Online six-point socket II

  • Posts: 911
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2019, 03:55 AM »
Hi!

very interesting insights Cheese, thank you!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 207
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2019, 09:25 AM »
I'll be building kitchen cabinets in the next year and was interested in doing LED lighting as seen at IKEA.  I really appreciate you taking the time to share what you've done here, it will certainly help me, much appreciated, and great work!!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2019, 10:33 AM »
The other alternative would be to use the reed switch to trigger a relay, and then have the relay handle the higher current to power the LEDS. Again, a few more components, but you wouldn't have the reeds singeing themselves together.

Ya, thanks for bringing that up. That's one of the paths I actually thought about. However, because there are 4 separate cabinets, I'd need at least 4 solid state relays plus voltage in to power the relays etc, etc. Things just started to get complicated quickly. The microswitches kind of kept the clutter to a minimum.  [smile]


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
4. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2019, 12:30 PM »
Here's a real nice compact solution if you're short on space. It's one of the latest Diode LED products. It combines a wall box mounted driver with an integral dimmer. They come in 3 different wattages and in 4 different colors. They aren't inexpensive though, the 60 W model runs $190.

I put in the 60 W model on the other side of the kitchen and run 11' of Ultra Blaze in CHROMAPATH® Slim aluminum channel for under counter task lighting along with 3' of Ultra Blaze imbeded in a walnut counter top.

https://www.diodeled.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2019-diode-led-catalog-041119B-web.pdf









Here's another new product from Diode LED. It's flexible and goes around corners.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3969
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2019, 01:45 PM »
Can you put one of those 40 watt Meanwell drivers in a wall box? If so, would you switch the power to the driver or the output to the led’s?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1608
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2019, 03:20 PM »
This is great, I'm starting to understand all the bits involved.  The hall effect sensor is intriguing, but my googling is turning up stuff that doesn't look like it's packaged for plug and play use.  Ideally I would want to buy a kit with the switch, relay, driver and LED's all together and ready to wire into the cabinet. 

So here is a question.  I don't know enough about the wiring yet to understand if this is right.  I'm designing a cabinet for my wife (she would say it's going nowhere, but she doesn't appreciate that thinking is half the work!  :-P) which will be waist high about 600mm/24" wide, with two symmetrical doors and a drawer (above or below the doors).  So I need:
  • 2 20" sections of the LED tape
  • 1 driver (how much output?)
  • 2 hall effect switches
  • 1 relay?

There will be two LED strips inside the cabinet, and if either door is opened, I want both LED strips to light.  I think that means both switches need to be connected to the driver and relay so either switch can turn the lights on.  Does that sound doable?

*Edit*
One more thing...I know I want a warm light (2700K tops), but I'm not sure about the intensity.  In case the two strips end up being too bright, I may need to dim them, but really only once to get it where I want.  Do the drivers come with an integrated dimmer where I could make the adjustment before hiding the driver away in a recessed compartment hidden in the cabinet?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 03:27 PM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2019, 05:00 PM »
Can you put one of those 40 watt Meanwell drivers in a wall box? If so, would you switch the power to the driver or the output to the led’s?

I don't think a 40 W driver will fit in a wall box Michael. However you may be able to put 2 each 20 W drivers in a wall box and run them in parallel. That's exactly what I'm doing with the photo of the 2 Triads because of space limitations.

https://led.meanwell.com/productSeries.aspx#tag-6-57

Here you can see the 40 W Triads stacked on top each other because these are inside a small metal box I placed in a rear concrete step that I poured.
An 80 W driver would never fit in this small space.



And here's an example of the size of a 60 W driver.



If it's for task lighting, definitely switch the 120 AC that goes to the driver.

Also choose a driver that will provide you with more power than you need. 15% to 20% is the rule of thumb. So if you know the LEDs will draw 20 watts, choose a 25 watt driver.

I use CV constant voltage drivers which serves probably 90% of the LEDs. Mean Well also sells CC constant current for those LEDs that require them.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 05:02 PM by Cheese »

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 43
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2019, 05:07 PM »
@RKA If you have limited electronic smarts, then a simple relay setup would be the way to go (the Hall effect switch is kind of ‘fun with over engineering’). The idea is simply to separate the high current LED circuit from the low current switch - Reed switches have tiny little filaments of moving metal, so any significant amount of juice running through them can weld them together.

Below is a very simple doodled concept using a solid state relay (a relay that is all electronics inside, rather than the mechanical device that works with a coil and magnetism). Solid state relays draw much less current than the mechanical relays, so it opens up options for low power solutions. Just be aware that some solid state relays are designed to handle an AC output, and some for DC - the LEDS will want DC.

You’ll be able to find equivalents in yankland or fleabay if you don’t want to buy direct from the sweatshop, but something like this from Aliexpress would work. It only needs 12 milliamps on the input, so I suspect you’d get decent life out of a 9V battery, but you’d need to experiment.
Mount it to another bit of looomininininum if you’re running lots of strips (spec says anything over 10amps needs a heat sink - I doubt a couple of short runs of drawer lights will need that much)

If you want everything mains powered, there are plenty of power supplies/drivers that have multiple outputs, so you can run one output on the reed switch/drawer sensor side, and another on the LED strip side.




« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 05:38 PM by Bernmc »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2019, 05:28 PM »
This is great, I'm starting to understand all the bits involved.  The hall effect sensor is intriguing, but my googling is turning up stuff that doesn't look like it's packaged for plug and play use.  Ideally I would want to buy a kit with the switch, relay, driver and LED's all together and ready to wire into the cabinet. 

So here is a question.  I don't know enough about the wiring yet to understand if this is right.  I'm designing a cabinet for my wife (she would say it's going nowhere, but she doesn't appreciate that thinking is half the work!  :-P) which will be waist high about 600mm/24" wide, with two symmetrical doors and a drawer (above or below the doors).  So I need:
  • 2 20" sections of the LED tape
  • 1 driver (how much output?)
  • 2 hall effect switches
  • 1 relay?

There will be two LED strips inside the cabinet, and if either door is opened, I want both LED strips to light.  I think that means both switches need to be connected to the driver and relay so either switch can turn the lights on.  Does that sound doable?

*Edit*
One more thing...I know I want a warm light (2700K tops), but I'm not sure about the intensity.  In case the two strips end up being too bright, I may need to dim them, but really only once to get it where I want.  Do the drivers come with an integrated dimmer where I could make the adjustment before hiding the driver away in a recessed compartment hidden in the cabinet?

Raj if you want a plug & play package check out Haefle. They offered something along those lines for wardrobes a few years back.

I'd stick with microswitches because of their simplicity and reliability. I also looked at hall effect but that approach wasn't too friendly.  [smile]

Here's a visual aid I slapped together. 2 LED strips connected together at the top. The driver is plugged into 120 VAC. One leg of the 12 volt output connects to the LED, while the other leg of the 12 volt output connects to each microswitch. Each microswitch connects to one of the LEDs. If either switch is triggered, both LED tapes will light.



Let me get back to you on the dimmer. I have one that's maybe the size of a 1/2" cube. It's really tiny. I use it for adjusting light levels. I'll go down and dig in my LED SYSTAINER... [eek]...that's a fact. A Systainer actually stuffed with LED items. How NERDY is that?  [crying]

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2019, 05:34 PM »
Hey @Bernmc would you be able to run multiple reed switches to the relay?

Is there a practical limit on the number?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1608
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2019, 05:38 PM »
@Cheese Thanks for the pictorial, that makes it very clear (I would have been lost if you typed a paragraph).  So if I wanted to eliminate the battery and only have it powered from AC, does the relay need to be spec'd for that (because it would see 120VAC)?  Same for the reed switch?  And any guesses if any wood can be present between the magnet and switch?  The idea would be to conceal all the switch elements so it's not obvious how the light is activated, other than the movement of the door (that's why I didn't look at the microswitches, I think it would be impossible to conceal them).
-Raj

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 43
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2019, 05:50 PM »
Hey @Bernmc would you be able to run multiple reed switches to the relay?

Is there a practical limit on the number?

Yes, you could just parallel them, as long as you want the situation where any switch powers the same LEDs (eg any drawer switches on all the lights, as in Raj’s requirement). They’re only activating the relay, so you could have as many as you want - it’s the other side of the relay doing the heavy lifting.


Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2019, 01:05 AM »
1. So if I wanted to eliminate the battery and only have it powered from AC, does the relay need to be spec'd for that (because it would see 120VAC)? 
2. Same for the reed switch? 
3. And any guesses if any wood can be present between the magnet and switch? 
4. The idea would be to conceal all the switch elements so it's not obvious how the light is activated, other than the movement of the door (that's why I didn't look at the microswitches, I think it would be impossible to conceal them).

4. So Raj, let's start with the easiest answer first, if i'm understanding you correctly, you want this project to perform virtual MAGIC for your wife to justify why you spend so much time on the FOG.  [poke]   Ya ...I get that.  [smile]

1. I have limited experience with solid state relays but I believe you need to match the incoming voltage. They are pretty cool and certainly blow away the traditional variety. They're so small and so quiet. @Bernmc may want to chime in here.  [smile]

2. Reed switches are usually rated by current capacity, but because in your application the reed switch is only being used as a signal carrying switch and not as a current carrying switch, current capacity really doesn't matter.

3. There can be some wood between the magnet and the reed switch. It all depends upon the strength of the magnet and the distance of it from the reed switch. Trial & error are the words to live by here. Just play around with it and you'll get the feel. Also understand that the lineal position of the magnet relative to the reed switch can make a difference because the position of it determines the size and the force of the magnetic field. That's the reason I fabbed up that "mini drawer" to experiment with the positional issues between the magnet and the reed switch.

We'll be interested in your results.

This is the unit I use for adjusting brightness. It's really tiny.



https://www.luxeonstar.com/500ma-externally-dimmable-buckpuck-dc-driver-leads

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1608
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2019, 06:43 AM »
Thank you @Cheese and @Bernmc , I fear I’ve stepped into another rabbit hole.  Just another day at the office I guess.   [smile] And Cheese, “magic” is dead on!  Since nothing is built yet, I have complete control (1% influence) over the design parameters of this little project.  Once I identify the bits I need, I can modify (ask for permission) the cabinet to accommodate the magic beans. 

And sorry, I think these unique requirements went outside the scope of your multi part series.  I can create another thread if you want to keep this one simple?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 06:45 AM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2019, 10:21 AM »
Raj if you're looking for plug & play, you may want to consider some various Diode LED products. An assembled product would include everything you need except for the driver and switching mechanism. They have a new product called Spotmod Slik LED Panels.



They also offer fully assembled light bars.
https://www.diodeled.com/cascade-led-light-bar.html
https://www.diodeled.com/tru-link.html

Puck lights.
https://www.diodeled.com/triant-led-puck-light.html

Or just generally assembled product.
https://www.diodeled.com/products/fixtures.html

Sensors & dimmers.
https://www.diodeled.com/products/led-control.html

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
5. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2019, 11:48 PM »
I've had led strips explode and catch fire in the past which worried me, they were covered in a kind of clear plastic sheath which i guess insulated them.

So @Russty , this response goes back to your previous experiences. I assume the LEDs you're talking about were waterproof LEDs. If so they probably had a profile that looked similar to this.



Well the supplier of these LEDs suggested I just remove the liner of the VHB double stick tape and adhere this to any substrate I wanted to. So I did. I routed out some channels in stretchers that were part of a cabinet assembly and adhered the LEDs to the wooden stretchers after sealing the channels with 2 coats of sanding sealer.

I then decided to "burn in" the LEDs for a couple of days just to make sure everything was copacetic. So after 2 days of continual activation they looked like this.



Day 3 looked like this.



Day 4 looked like this.



And day 5 is when I decided to intercede.



Upon closer inspection you can see burn marks on the LED covering. Even more surprising is that some are burned, some are really burned and some are not burned at all. That's the way it's always been with semiconductors, "catch as catch can."  They're all individual entities and they all age differently and in this particular incident, produce different levels of light and different levels of heat.

You'll also notice that they've been adhered to a wooden substrate. That's a big part of the problem. Wood is an insulator and it absorbs a minimum amount of heat and radiates none. The silicone waterproof barrier over the LED puts the final death knell on this product.

This LED can't rid its heat from the top and it can't rid its heat from the bottom. It just sits there and cooks. Possibly, if it's in a water bath it may survive, however that's not how these are commonly used. They're typically used outside when moisture is a problem.

I do think however, if these were placed on an aluminum heatsink, these issues would be mitigated to some degree. Keep them cool is a mantra.




« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 09:56 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
6. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 11:02 AM »
Here's a good article on drivers & power supplies. They also talk about Constant Voltage CV versus Constant Current CC. The subject of dimmers is also talked about.

https://www.ledsupply.com/blog/understanding-led-drivers/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2019, 12:07 PM »
Can you put one of those 40 watt Meanwell drivers in a wall box? If so, would you switch the power to the driver or the output to the led’s?

Hey @Michael Kellough I just received a 20 watt Meanwell for an edge lit bathroom shelf project. Here's how it compares to the 60 watt and a single electrical box.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3969
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2019, 01:11 PM »
Thanks! Excellent provision of information, as usual.

Offline Russty

  • Posts: 18
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2019, 04:31 AM »
that is definitely consistent with what happened to mine, they were clipped across joists so were technically in free air so lasted a bit longer, i cant remember how long exactly but i reckon about 4 or 5 months before they started to dim and then a few more months before they started to pop and catch fire.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1269
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2019, 10:52 AM »
... 4 or 5 months before they started to dim and then a few more months before they started to pop and catch fire.
They what?


Offline usernumber1

  • Posts: 40
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2019, 12:14 PM »
not sure where you're getting your led from; after messing around with numerous local suppliers and chinese deals, all my installs are going to be from armacost only. their LEDs are up to spec and i have not see any burnouts.

i think leevalley also uses them as a supplier. they are definitely premium priced but sometimes there's a sale from their site

i should add the installs have some spec requirements, so for example you may need aluminum housing for cooling purposes, etc. depending on power, length of run, etc. there's other things : they provide technical docs

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6030
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2019, 02:30 PM »
Glossed over thread saw about heatsinks etc. Found this https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/aluminum-channels/klus-b1888-micro-alu-series-surface-mount-aluminum-led-profile-housing/1020/4785/?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=base&utm_content=B1888&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseChild&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnpXmBRDUARIsAEo71tS1sKb4alua32CQ-Wv8ztLrZLdUJhIbkOWGyRphRIWfUjGuLxbxX0gaAssyEALw_wcB

The extrusion you noted is manufactured by Klus. Nothing wrong with their products, it's good German stuff. They produce a variety of various aluminum extrusions and I'm using one of theirs for a an edge lit glass shelf in a bath.

I tend to use all DIODE LED products when I can because of their track record. I've used them for the last 6-7 years and haven't had any issues.  It's currently used mostly by commercial fabricators in the kitchen, bath and lighting arenas.

https://www.diodeled.com

Interestingly enough as a comparison, the Klus 39" long extrusion you pointed out costs $33.90 with a frosted cover.
The DIODE LED 48" long extrusion costs $23.50 with a frosted cover. If I had a commercial account, I could probably get a 10%-15% discount.