Author Topic: Zigzag dining chair  (Read 10141 times)

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Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Zigzag dining chair
« on: May 02, 2007, 10:55 PM »
This chair, which I designed to be reminiscent of Gerrit Rietvelt's classic, but to be comfortable, unlike the original, uses Domino joinery throughout. The leg miters are reinforced by shop-made tenons, using the same wood (jarrah) that the chair is made from. I tried two different methods of reinforcing the joints, as shown in the diagram. The first method, shown at the left, uses a single 10 x 33 x 50 mm through tenon. The second method uses three 2 x 19 x 28 mm locking tenons set in mortises that are milled after the joint has been glued together with epoxy with a single domino for alignment. The reinforcing tenons were pinned with solid brass screws. An article describing the chair's construction is published in the current isse (May '07) of Woodcraft Magazine.

Despite appearances, the chair is very strong; it easily supported the weight of three men weighing a total of 575 lbs.

An earlier version of the chair, which I built before the Domino was available, used pinned bridle joints, rather than miter joinery. Non-owners of a Domino can find and download free from my blog (see below) an article describing how to build that version of the chair.

David
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 01:25 PM by Rocker »
Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

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Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7259
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2007, 11:02 PM »
Very nice, great work.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 11:08 PM »
Rocker,
Very interesting design!  Thanks for sharing that concept here!!
By the way, make sure to post your Web site/blog address, with a description, in the "Member Web Sites" area.
Great work.  I'll look for it in Woodcraft magazine.
Stay in touch,
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Dave Rudy

  • Posts: 771
  • Coloroda Front Range, in the lee of Pikes Peak
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 09:52 AM »
Despite appearances, the chair is very strong; it easily supported the weight of three men weighing a total of 575 lbs.


I'm having just a slight problem visualizing how three men weighing 575 lbs could get onto that chair, but then I've never been to an Australian dinner party!!!!   ;D :o


Seriously, that is an exquisitie chair -- I will look forward to reading fully about its construction in the next Woodcraft.  Thanks for sharing it here.

Dave

Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 01:31 PM »
Dave,

Just in case you may have the impression that Australian dinner parties involve three men lap-dancing on the same chair, check out the third photo in my post, which shows the three men standing on a board laid across its seat rails :)

David
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 08:39 PM by Rocker »
Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

Offline Dave Rudy

  • Posts: 771
  • Coloroda Front Range, in the lee of Pikes Peak
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 07:44 PM »
Dave,

Just in case you may have the impression that Australian dinner parties involve three men lap-dancing on the same chair, check out the third photo in my post, which show the three men standing on a board laid across its seat rails :)

David

Thank you David.  My heart is much more at ease now, and I can look forward to a visit to Oz with pure excitement and no worries.

BTW I went to my local Woodcraft today to pick up the current magazine on the building of the chair and saw a prototype there that one of the employees had made, faithful to your design.  Most impressive!
 
I am really looking forward to building one of your rockers in the near future as well.  I have enjoyed your many contributions to the woodwork/ubeaut forum and resolved to order your plans some time ago.  It's a privilege to have you here with us on this forum as well.


Dave

Offline AccurateSystems.biz

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • Accuratesystems.biz
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 08:46 PM »
Dave,

6 of those would look great around the poker table i'm building.

I haven't been impressed with my other options. I love the creativity.

Thanks for sharing.

Chris
Festool Dealer

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 09:39 AM »
Rocker,
With the Domino, reinforced with metal pins, it seems clear that those joints would be able to withstand incredible force.  Actually, the wood would probably crack before the joint did.  Is that true?

One other question I have -- is the horizontal cross member also using Dominoes and metal pins?  I don't see evidence of it in the photos, but I'm curious about it.  If you can, could you show us a photo of that part of the chair?  Perhaps this is in the Woodcraft article?

I've been browsing your Web site the last few days and really like all your work.

Again, feel free to share your techniques and ideas with us!

Stay in touch,
Matthew
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:44 AM by Matthew Schenker »
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Daniel Platt

  • Posts: 28
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 11:10 AM »
Hello David,
Yours is an amazing chair with a great use of locking tenons! I'll definitely be picking up a copy of this Woodcraft issue.
Thank you,
Daniel

Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 07:04 PM »
Rocker,
With the Domino, reinforced with metal pins, it seems clear that those joints would be able to withstand incredible force.  Actually, the wood would probably crack before the joint did.  Is that true?

One other question I have -- is the horizontal cross member also using Dominoes and metal pins?  I don't see evidence of it in the photos, but I'm curious about it.  If you can, could you show us a photo of that part of the chair?  Perhaps this is in the Woodcraft article?

I've been browsing your Web site the last few days and really like all your work.

Again, feel free to share your techniques and ideas with us!

Stay in touch,
Matthew

Matthew,

I haven't tested my chair to destruction; but I am pretty sure that the legs would break before the miter joints would fail. The West Systems technical details say that the shear strength of epoxy is about 7000 psi, and the triple reinforcing tenons in my chair have a total glue area of about 4 square inches, so there should be little chance of the glue failing.

The six cross rails of my chair (3 back rails, two seat rails, and a stretcher) have regular 6 x 40 mm domino joints with no metal pins.

David
Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
  • Curmudgeon
    • Damn Fine Furniture
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2007, 05:42 PM »
This chair, which I designed to be reminiscent of Gerrit Rietvelt's classic, but to be comfortable, unlike the original, uses Domino joinery throughout. The leg miters are reinforced by shop-made tenons, using the same wood (jarrah) that the chair is made from. I tried two different methods of reinforcing the joints, as shown in the diagram. The first method, shown at the left, uses a single 10 x 33 x 50 mm through tenon. The second method uses three 2 x 19 x 28 mm locking tenons set in mortises that are milled after the joint has been glued together with epoxy with a single domino for alignment. The reinforcing tenons were pinned with solid brass screws.

An article describing the chair's construction is published in the current issue (May '07) of Woodcraft Magazine.

An earlier version of the chair, which I built before the Domino was available, used pinned bridle joints, rather than miter joinery. Non-owners of a Domino can find and download free from my blog (see below) an article describing how to build that version of the chair.

David

I believe that it is acceptable for people to post and refer to product for sale in their posts and this I accept. My feeling is, though, that the real purpose of this forum, which is open and freely giving of information which could be kept as secret, is to share information among Festool users. I don't feel that saying, "I made this and used these joints, but you'll have to pay to get it right" is in the spirit of the overall forum. There are many other places this can be done.
As stated, I understand and acknowledge peoples' right to do this and will refrain from making my opinions known in future.


Regards,

Albert

Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2007, 08:58 PM »
Albert,

I don't understand what it is that you are complaining of. No-one has to pay me anything to get either of the two articles that I have written on the two different versions of this chair. If they want to make the domino version, they can buy Woodcraft magazine, and a number of members have said they intend to do that. If they want the bridle-joint version, they can download an article on it free from my blog. I did not consider it fair to Woodcraft Magazine to make the Domino article available for free download while the issue of the  magazine in which it is published is still current.

It seems to me that, if you have issues with how a fellow member is posting, you should first raise the matter in a private message; if that does not resolve the issue to your satisfaction, you could raise it with the Forum Administrator, rather than posting a criticism as you have done here.

It is a bit disappointing, when I have made eight articles that I have written freely available to members on my blog to be accused of profiteering.

Rocker
Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

FFlowboy

  • Guest
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 09:58 PM »
Hi Rocker,
Should I enter the discussion do you think? I remember...

Offline Ken Milhinch

  • Posts: 58
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2007, 03:31 AM »
Albert seems to be having a couple of Hissy Fits today. ;D

You probably don't want me on your side David, but I agree with you. Very nice work too, by the way.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 03:32 AM by Ken Milhinch »
Ken

Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2007, 05:23 AM »
Thanks to Matthew, Dave, Chris, Daniel and Ken for your kind words. I think that if you have a well-equipped shop, you will find this chair pretty easy to make. It would be quite feasible, with minor modifications, to make the version of the chair with mitre joints, even if you do not own a Domino. You could rout the chair's mortices using one or other of the mortising jigs that you can download free from my blog. You might need to use a little ingenuity to rout the 28 mm deep mortises for the reinforcing tenons - you would probably need to use a collet extension to do it, unless you can find an unusually long 1/4" spiral bit.

It was satisfying to learn that a Woodcraft employee has made the chair as a demonstration piece.

Rocker
Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

FFlowboy

  • Guest
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 05:23 PM »
So, which is it and who is speaking for whom?

Is it that Rocker had a sense of fairness and obligation to the magazine(quite rightly) or that he has no rights now regarding his own designs and shouldn't be talking about them at all except to refer to the magazine in question? ???

Offline Bob Childress

  • Posts: 121
  • South Carolina, USA
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 05:52 PM »
Allright you lot, let's see if we can get this sorted. I'm not a lawyer, but I AM a professional writer so I will be pretty close (for US copyright). And it can be complex.

First off, what rights did Rocker give them? There are all rights, first serial rights, first US rights, etc. Most trade magazines ask for and get all rights--that means they own the article forever. If this is the case, it can never be posted for download without first getting written permission from the publisher. Or at least not for many years, and I'll be dead by then.  ;D

As for Rick's drawing, if he gave the rights to it to Rocker and Rocker in turn incorporated it into the article, the publishers own those rights as well. And in fact, that is what happened, whether explicitly done or not. That is, the rights to publish the drawing as a part of the article, not necessarily the drawing itself.

However, the publisher owns the rights to the article, not the rights to Rocker's design (uness he sells it to them). So he can offer the design freely, so long as it is in a substantially different form from the published article. He cannot, as I stated before, offer the actual article in any form unless permitted by the copyright owner.

Having said that, unless Woodcraft makes a lot of money selling reprints (I doubt it) they will likely grant permission to offer the article with due reference to Woodcraft's involvement. Usually this takes a form like "This article appeared in Woodcraft Magazine Issue so and so and is reprinted by permission."

Taunton Press, on the other hand, would not likely grant permission because they sell a lot of their archived material.

If it all sounds a bit esoteric, it is. Now I am sure the issue is clear as mud.  ;)
TS-55, RO-150, ETS-150/3, DX-93, LS-130, CT-22, OF-1000, DF-500Q, C-12

FFlowboy

  • Guest
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2007, 06:26 PM »
Well, thanks for that Bob.
Ricks mickey mouse software doesn't concern me, its just an amusement. What does, is the comments by Rocker to Albert after he simply asked a question and raised an issue.
So we're none the wiser as to whether Rocker actually can post this chair, whether he needs to reference the article or whether he could post all details, should that be a considered option for him.
I refer to Tezzers 3 way mitre joint. He could have patented it, published it, or left himself open to copies by making the method free to the community at large. I guess its just an attitude thing.
I'll get off my soapbox now.

Offline PatR

  • Posts: 184
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 08:01 PM »
Rob

Did you use Domi to make your soapbox?

If you did then I believe you have unwittingly infringed Dr Proctor A Gamble's design copyright of the:

" Portable wooden height extender. (Ideally suited for Public Speaking Occassions)"

 ;D


Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 08:51 PM »
FFlowboy,

I believe that Bob Childress has summarized the copyright situation correctly. Woodcraft Magazine owns the copyright to the article; and I own the design of my zigzag chair. I have no intention of posting the article on the domino version of the chair while the current issue of the magazine is current; I may well do so with permission from Woodcraft after that.

I beg to differ about Albert's post. He did not ask a question; he made a statement, which I consider to be unfair:


I believe that it is acceptable for people to post and refer to product for sale in their posts and this I accept. My feeling is, though, that the real purpose of this forum, which is open and freely giving of information which could be kept as secret, is to share information among Festool users. I don't feel that saying, "I made this and used these joints, but you'll have to pay to get it right" is in the spirit of the overall forum. There are many other places this can be done.
As stated, I understand and acknowledge peoples' right to do this and will refrain from making my opinions known in future.


Regards,

Albert

Albert is saying, I suppose, that I should not have posted about this chair in this forum because I have published an article on it, and people would need to buy the magazine in order to get the full details of it. This seems a very strange argument to me. From the posts of other forum members, it is clear that they are happy to buy the article, and are pleased that I posted about it. Anyway, it should be simple enough, from that information that I gave in my original post in this thread, for a competent woodworker to build a close approximation to my zigzag chair, without needing any further details.

Your remark about 'mickey mouse' software refers to SolidWorks, a high-end 3D CAD program which costs over AU$6000.

As for Tezzer's 3-way mitre, he certainly could not patent it, since, as Tezzer acknowledged in his original post on the Ubeaut forum, he is simply using the Domino to mill the mortises in a joint which is essentially the same as the one published in FWW some years ago.

Rick has forestalled a comment that I was about to make about using multiple accounts in this Forum.

Rocker
Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
  • Curmudgeon
    • Damn Fine Furniture
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 09:19 PM »
Rocker,

It was a statement and your feelings are noted.

As far as dual characters, I'm at a total loss about this.
Rick's threats are just something else aren't they. What a man.
And you're probably right, I felt that posting the chair while you can't really answer questions seemed odd but thats just me. Also as I said, I respect and understand the situation and was not going to say any more.

Good luck with your endeavors,

Albert

Offline fidelfs

  • Posts: 527
  • Houston, TX
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 09:38 PM »
Can we just stop this?   >:(

This forum is for amusement, knowledge transfer, etc.  If I want to fight  I will go to a bar.

I want to know what others are doing and if that helps me in my woodworking, welcome to my bag of tricks.

Please keep posting this type of plans, blogs, etc.  If I don't like it then i won't read it, simple as that.

I understand everybody is entitle to an opinion and I respect that, but an opinion is not war.  If somebody does not like something and he post something about it, that is OK.  Administrator posted later that the original post comply with the rules so, just stop and enjoy making saw dust with festool equipment.

Don't take it wrong any party.  I am not taking any sides, I just want to have this civilized.

Well any other Domino woodworking plans,  anybody?.....  ???
There is never a situation where it can't be done with the right hand tool - even though it may be a lot more work.

Offline Les Spencer

  • Posts: 487
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 11:49 PM »
Rick,

I agree. Not sure if it's in the best interest of the forum since he needs to be someone who can't be himself.
Les (near Indy) XL

Offline Rocker

  • Posts: 63
  • Furniture maker, Queensland, Australia
    • Build your own rocking chair
Re: Zigzag dining chair
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 12:53 AM »
Rocker,

It was a statement and your feelings are noted.

As far as dual characters, I'm at a total loss about this.
Rick's threats are just something else aren't they. What a man.
And you're probably right, I felt that posting the chair while you can't really answer questions seemed odd but thats just me. Also as I said, I respect and understand the situation and was not going to say any more.

Good luck with your endeavors,

Albert

Albert,

It seems that you are under a misapprehension. There is no legal impediment to my answering questions about my design, or giving whatever details I see fit. The only thing that I cannot do is reproduce the published article. If anyone has any questions about the design, I am happy to answer them, in general. However, I will not give out exact and complete details until the May issue of Woodcraft is no longer current. In fact WoodCraft Magazine does intend to continue selling the article as one of its series of project plans (it is  #70). I wasn't actually aware that this was the case until recently, but I am not complaining, since I consider that I received a reasonably generous fee for the article. I have not in fact signed any contract with Woodcraft, but I undersatand it to be a gentleman's agreement that I shall observe not to violate their copyright to the article.

Rocker

Free downloadable plans and articles on jigs and furniture on my blog:
http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 542
    • talkFestool
Complete Wood Article - Zigzag Dining Chair
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2007, 11:32 AM »
Festool USA just posted David's Wood magazine article on their website!  It looks like the compete article in PDF format, including the requisite picture of three guys standing on it! 

http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/Domino_WCM_zigzag.pdf

Regards,

Dan.