Author Topic: Does anyone review based on longevity  (Read 12735 times)

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Offline ShawnRussell

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Does anyone review based on longevity
« on: November 30, 2013, 05:40 AM »
I was talking to another woodworker about a jointer/planer and talking about reviews I have read. He stated that all reviews touch on a few items but never address the longevity of a tool, the quality of engineering, and if parts will be available X number of years down the road.

Has anyone ever seen a magazine review that did address these questions?

There has been a few threads talking about tool shoot outs and now I completely question even reading tool reviews.

I am in the market for a combo jointer/planer and it seems the best advice is just talking to someone who actually owns the tool and has had the tool for a period of time.

done venting... just seems like the hours of online research and buying old pdf magazines to read tool reviews was a total waste of time and money. :(
My friend Fred taught me that relationships are like fine tool makers, what you pay is but a small part, what matters most is the time, passion, and care that was spent and the joy that you have.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Alex

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 07:15 AM »
Totally agree with you. I think the best reviews are to be found on websites that allow customer feedback like Amazon or Newegg. Magazines don't tend to do reviews like that, they only want to talk about new stuff. So naturally they can only sum up a bunch of features, and not go into how something holds up over time.

I don't know about any woodworking/tool sites that have such a customer feedback feature except for Amazon.

Offline JD2720

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2013, 08:22 AM »
I take all reviews with a grain of salt. I do not trust any of them. Too many are paid for, in one way or another, by manufactures, retailer, competitors & disgruntled buyers. Very few are true, unbiased reviews. 
 
You are correct that the best why to find out about a product, is to talk to people that have used the product you are wanting to purchase. Although I do not completely take the word of those users either.

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2013, 08:55 AM »
Shawn,
 You bring up a valid point. Projected longevity is a major factor, when choosing a tool.   I do see that many reviews will comment on the quality of build.  I've had a Craftsman drill since the 60's, that's still going strong.  The thing is a beast.  This is one of the reasons why I look towards the quality of build.  I think that in most cases, quality equals longevity.  After using a Domino XL or any of the Festool sanders, one can experience the quality of the build.  The same goes for the Mafell P1cc jigsaw.  I expect these tools to last 50 years! ...like my Craftsman.
 That said, I have also been researching Jointers, Planers, and Combos.  Powermatic Tools are very appealing - both because of the quality and the company's longevity.  The Hammer A3 looks like a great jointer/planer, but I would have to see it in person and try it.  In the end, reviews are one thing, but I like to use the tool before committing to purchasing it.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2013, 09:39 AM »
Few would have predicted 20 years ago that Delta would become one of the most difficult lines to get parts for.

Offline Scott Burt

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2013, 09:55 AM »
We started a "On Further Review" section on our review site so that we could go back and add info on tools and products further into their life cycles. It has also allowed us to show modifications, maintenance and tips after the fact.

I agree with Shawn that this type of info is more useful than bell and whistle open box type of info. The question of how it performs over time is really important.

Offline RJNeal

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2013, 10:01 AM »
I'm with the grain of salt idea, the review help in knowing what not to consider.
Rick
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline RobBob

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2013, 10:25 AM »
About the best feature of magazine reviews is the ability to compare basic specs in one place for similar tools and I do find some value in that.  Otherwise, the actual review part doesn't mean much.

I also agree that the customer reviews on Amazon can be helpful.  Always read the comments that are sometimes made about a review.  The comments can help explain a bad review or add information such as product updates that may correct a design flaw.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 11:15 AM by rljatl »

Offline Reiska

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2013, 10:44 AM »
I just wish people on Amazon who give 1-star ratings to items just based on bad packaging, delayed delivery or just plain silliness would go away or be peer-moderated away.

I love the people who actually bother to revisit their initial reviews later after experiences with their items though sometimes I do get the feeling that some of them are somehow biased/paid for and hence unreliable.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline RDMuller

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2013, 10:58 AM »
This post really hits a sore spot for me.     I agree with most everything that has been said so far in this thread.

In assorted roles in the "day job" over the last 45 years, I have always had some function as a data scientist.   Within the last 10 years, I was attending a morning symposia at a statistical software meeting on warranty analysis.  A person from the appliance manufacturer here in the states that makes at least 8 to 10 brands of home appliances under assorted names  was using this presentation to show what a wonderful job they were doing with all of their brands in perform better than the time limits on their warranties.   In other words, without saying it, making more money or saving more money than they were expecting to pay out.  When pressed by a question from the floor (me), he fumbled around and admitted that this has nothing to do with the long term longevity of the product  (what is in it for the consumer -- reality is that the customer is better off to have it fail while under, not after warranty).    

Automobile reviews are another example of something that really isn't useful.   Here in the states, there is an auto emergency service (AAA) that rescues drivers when their cars have failed.  Talk to them about the failures they see long after the warranty has expired.   Those conversations plus some bitter expenses on cars from the 1990's have soured me on the big 3 here in the US.  I know that was 15 years ago, but I hate $1000 to $3000 repair costs for silly things like fuel pumps (embedded within gas tanks), automatic transmissions, air conditioning, brakes etc.  I don't forget that when I shop for a new vehicle

You get what you pay for.   These tools are the same way.  I like the Festool attitude of how can we make it better, not how can we make it cheaper.

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2013, 11:41 AM »


You get what you pay for.   These tools are the same way.  I like the Festool attitude of how can we make it better, not how can we make it cheaper.
[/quote]

I agree with everything you said here, except after seeing the lower quality difference between the Domino 500 with metal pins and the recent issue with plastic pins, I'm not completely convinced of Festool's current commitment to quality.

Offline greg mann

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2013, 11:56 AM »


You get what you pay for.   These tools are the same way.  I like the Festool attitude of how can we make it better, not how can we make it cheaper.

I agree with everything you said here, except after seeing the lower quality difference between the Domino 500 with metal pins and the recent issue with plastic pins, I'm not completely convinced of Festool's current commitment to quality.
[/quote]

From a different perspective I tink the time has passed where plastic automatically equates to low quality. We hear complaints that tools are 'too heavy' or contain too much plastic or are too flimsy. The MFT gets panned because it is too flimsy for use with a hand plane, but many of us would like it to be even lighter to move around. The pins on the Domino,along with other plastic components, could be metal but we would begin to complain about the weight, I think.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Michael Garrett

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2013, 12:29 PM »
You can't please humans, they will find something wrong with everything.
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, VeritasĀ® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set

Offline jacko9

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2013, 12:52 PM »
You might want to check out the Old Woodworking machines site @

http://owwm.org/

There are a lot of old timers there with many years of experience.

Jack

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2013, 01:26 PM »
Greg Mann,
 The Domino XL has metal pins. The pins don't weigh that much! Poor argument.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2013, 01:34 PM »
Greg Mann,
 The Domino XL has metal pins. The pins don't weigh that much! Poor argument.

If I recall the pins were switched for some other reason. Why plastic paddles instead of metal paddles?? I don't know, but in this case I don't see a need for metal and I don't see the plastic as necessarily being lower quality. Who knows maybe the plastic actually functioned better for the flip in?  ???  JMO.


Seth

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2013, 01:44 PM »
As I recall the change in pin design was for 2 reasons, a possible design conflict with another manufacture (not sure if this is truly the case) and the end user (this I have seen more than once and did once).

I have the pin model, I can tell you that the end user did cause problems with the pins. If you had to replunge a mortice after glue up and did not wipe the glue off the pins, the pin would become locked in the boss. I had it happen once but was able to get the pin freed up. Now I'm vigilant about wiping the pins if I get glue on them. The paddles solve the problem, the change was made to better serve the habits of the customer.

The 700 pins are a different design than the original 500 pin design.

Tom

Offline Reiska

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2013, 02:56 PM »
The change was initiated by suspicion of a possible patent infringement as documented in this thread by a Festool employee, but turned out not to be the case. During the testing their focus group apparently preferred the new design over the pin-version and hence it ended up being in the upgraded version anyway.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2013, 03:15 PM »
This is all very interesting. I own both the newer Domino 500 and the Domino 700 XL, and use both quite often.  I don't know anything about focus groups, etc. (And, I don't think that I would ever have wet glue anywhere near my domino pins.  [huh] )
All I can do is speak from my own experience. IMO, the pins, pin design, and general quality/build of the XL is superior to the 500. 
 I'm not saying that because of this, Festool is going downhill. I just disagree with their choice, in this instance.

Offline GreenGA

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2013, 04:24 PM »
I was thinking the exact same thing myself.

Few would have predicted 20 years ago that Delta would become one of the most difficult lines to get parts for.

Never use a 2x4, when a 2x6 will do just as well.

SYS-Lites, CMS/GE, TS55, KAPEX, MFT/3, CXS Kit, C15 Set, C12 Set, T18 Set, Ti15 Set, CT48 w/Boom Arm, Carvex PSBC, HL850, HL65L, RO90, RTS400, DTS400, LS130, DX93, RO150, ETS 150/3, RAS 115/4E, RS2E, Domino 500 & 700 Sets, MFK700 Set, OF1010 EQ, OF1400, OF2000E+, MFS700, FS3000/2, LR 32-SYS+97" rail, 2011 Centrotec Set, Metric and Imperial Zobo Forstner Bit Set, VS600 Dovetail System, Guide Rail Kit, Parallel Guides, Tradesman Cleaning Set, Shinex, lotsa 'tainers (Sys, Sorts, Minis, Midis, Maxis. Attics, Classic, New and Blue).
Coming Attractions: Workcenter, NAINA when available.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2013, 04:29 PM »
I was talking to another woodworker about a jointer/planer and talking about reviews I have read. He stated that all reviews touch on a few items but never address the longevity of a tool, the quality of engineering, and if parts will be available X number of years down the road.

Has anyone ever seen a magazine review that did address these questions?

There has been a few threads talking about tool shoot outs and now I completely question even reading tool reviews.

I am in the market for a combo jointer/planer and it seems the best advice is just talking to someone who actually owns the tool and has had the tool for a period of time.

done venting... just seems like the hours of online research and buying old pdf magazines to read tool reviews was a total waste of time and money. :(

Hi Shawn

I am not sure if you are in the market for a $800 machine or an $8,000 machine. If it is the former...

I have just sold a brilliant planer/jointer which I bought in 1992. It was made by Elektra Beckum which is now subsumed into Metabo. It was the HC260 machine. The design is so popular that you will find it with many other names on the badge. I sold mine to upgrade to a machine at 3 times the cost which is not 3 times the quality of that dear little machine. The difference is that my new machine will take the knocks of a busy workshop and can work for 8-12 hours a day.

Peter

Offline ShawnRussell

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2013, 04:58 PM »
Peter,

I do not have a budget.  [eek]

I am sure I will be in the 3k and upwards neighborhood. What I want is a tool that I know will last for 2-3 generations. I am/was leaning towards MiniMax and Felder. I am not sold on a combo machine. I have room to roll two machines around. Production quality and machine build quality are most important to me. If I have to save for another year to afford the machine that will best fill that requirement then I am content to wait.

I currently have a bench top planer and an 8" Delta. I want a minimum of 12" and if I could find a 15" that would be excellent.

Cheers
My friend Fred taught me that relationships are like fine tool makers, what you pay is but a small part, what matters most is the time, passion, and care that was spent and the joy that you have.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2013, 05:29 PM »
This is all very interesting. I own both the newer Domino 500 and the Domino 700 XL, and use both quite often.  I don't know anything about focus groups, etc. (And, I don't think that I would ever have wet glue anywhere near my domino pins.  [huh] )
All I can do is speak from my own experience. IMO, the pins, pin design, and general quality/build of the XL is superior to the 500. 
 I'm not saying that because of this, Festool is going downhill. I just disagree with their choice, in this instance.

I know of 6 fences that had to be replaced due to glue on the pins. As I said nearly ruined one myself.  I prefer the pins, so would have been more upset with myself if I had to go to paddles.

I've used to 700 but don't own one, did not notice any difference in quality. Ergonomics yes, quality no. Easy to build on what you learned from a previous model, harder to innovate.

I know someone who epoxied locked the depth adjustment mechanism on the 700 due to epoxy on his fingers. He never had it happen with the 500, he felt that part of the 700 was inferior to the 500.

Tom

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2013, 05:42 PM »
I'll echo what some of the others have said.  Festool does listen to endusers and evaluates comments and tool usages.  Based on all that they do make changes.  The pins on the original Domino were not used as much to reference into previously cut mortises, so they introduced the paddles.  Another example;  the now discontinued CT-22 and CT-33 had a place to hook up a hose to exhaust the exhaust away from the place of work or outside.  It could also be used to hook into another CT.  Great feature, but one that most people never used.  The new model CT's don't have that feature now.  As Tom said, it is easier to modify than to invent.  I was told years ago that the tool development process at Festool is usually between 5 and 7 years.

Peter

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2013, 05:53 PM »
Tom,
 I don't get it? Why would you have wet glue anywhere near a Domino tool?  I make my mortises, do a dry fit, and then put the tool away before the glue even comes out.  I'm just confused how you can get glue on the pins? Please explain. And, if you don't see a difference in quality of how the new 500 and 700 are built, then I don't think that you've spent enough time with the 700. Thanks. 

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2013, 06:19 PM »
Tom,
 I don't get it? Why would you have wet glue anywhere near a Domino tool?  I make my mortises, do a dry fit, and then put the tool away before the glue even comes out.  I'm just confused how you can get glue on the pins? Please explain. And, if you don't see a difference in quality of how the new 500 and 700 are built, then I don't think that you've spent enough time with the 700. Thanks. 

I may have 30 pieces I ned to make up, don't have time to put it away and take it back out. I have missed a few mortises, out of the 10's of thousands that I have cut. Had to go to the mid setting to make things align. I think I dry fitted the first piece I made, haven't since then. I trust the tool, once in a while I'll screw up. The 700 that got epoxied, you have to know the guy to understand. Looking at his spray equipment it is a like looking back in time to the first color/finish he ever sprayed. 

I think I posted the DVD shelving unit that had 180 5 mm dominos in it. I was teaching someone how to use the Domino, he laid it out, cut the mortices, asked me if he should test fit everything. I asked him if he laid it out properly, set and used the tool properly, his response was "yes". Told him no need to test fit, glue it up and assemble it, except for the few mortices he forgot to cut out of the 360, it went together really well. I did make sure he wiped the glue off the pins.

I think your confusing quality with ergonomics and power. There is a different feel and sound. There isn't a single piece on my 500 that does not fit perfectly, all the parts work and interface as they should. I will lay you odds, that except for the paddle change the 500 is built as it was when I got mine. I do not have anywhere near the time on the 700 as I do on the 500, only 1000-1200 mortices. I did find the design more user friendly, quality was no different, everything fit and worked together well. Some day I may even buy one.

Tom

Offline ccmviking

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 06:48 PM »

A very good and reliable 12" unit that can be found used for about 4 grand is the Felder AD731.  It's built a lot heavier than most of the 5 series Felder jointers/planers which would typically been the 12" model. 

http://lamachineabois.free.fr/det_rd.php?id=7

Chris...


I was talking to another woodworker about a jointer/planer and talking about reviews I have read. He stated that all reviews touch on a few items but never address the longevity of a tool, the quality of engineering, and if parts will be available X number of years down the road.

Has anyone ever seen a magazine review that did address these questions?

There has been a few threads talking about tool shoot outs and now I completely question even reading tool reviews.

I am in the market for a combo jointer/planer and it seems the best advice is just talking to someone who actually owns the tool and has had the tool for a period of time.

done venting... just seems like the hours of online research and buying old pdf magazines to read tool reviews was a total waste of time and money. :(

Offline Chems

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2013, 07:12 PM »
The pins on the original Domino were not used as much to reference into previously cut mortises, so they introduced the paddles. 

I'm about 95% sure that the reason Festool changed the pins for the (in my opinion) inferior fold down tab system was that they were sued by I think Lamello for stealing the pins idea. I've got the pins on my machine, much better than the paddles I've seen on the new version. Happy to stand corrected but I seem to remember it was a big deal about 3-4 years ago.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2013, 08:31 PM »
NYC mentioned "Powermatic Tools are very appealing - both because of the quality and the company's longevity."

How much of Powermatic is left from the company of 20 years ago versus just a trademark being bought and sold? An extreme example would be someone saying they want to buy a Polaroid digital camera because of the company's history of innovation. However, Polaroid is simply a name used by some conglomerate now. There is nothing left of the company founded by Dr. Land decades ago.

I think that reviews of longevity would be hard to account for different usage rates, operator skill (epoxy?) and just luck of the draw. I had the controller board of my C12 drill die after 4-5 years. Most people probably have not had that issue which cost me about $100.

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2013, 08:41 PM »


 Yes, Chems. That's probably more like it.

"I think your confusing quality with ergonomics and power."\

 No, Tom. I'm not. The 500 has plastic caps falling off, all the time. Lost one...should have glued them in. It was completely out of calibration, when I first bought it.  Thanks to Paul Marcel, it's now calibrated. (It's still a good tool. I use it all the time and like it. Would recommend it.) The 700 was dead on from day one. It vibrates less and has a smoother, quieter motor.

Offline greg mann

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2013, 10:17 PM »
This is all very interesting. I own both the newer Domino 500 and the Domino 700 XL, and use both quite often.  I don't know anything about focus groups, etc. (And, I don't think that I would ever have wet glue anywhere near my domino pins.  [huh] )
All I can do is speak from my own experience. IMO, the pins, pin design, and general quality/build of the XL is superior to the 500. 
 I'm not saying that because of this, Festool is going downhill. I just disagree with their choice, in this instance.

Elsewhere you questioned Festool's commitment to quality. Yet you love the overall superiority of the XL compared to the 500. Since the XL succeeded the 500 it seems like a poor argument. [poke]
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RL

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2013, 11:38 PM »
Tom,
 I don't get it? Why would you have wet glue anywhere near a Domino tool?  I make my mortises, do a dry fit, and then put the tool away before the glue even comes out.  I'm just confused how you can get glue on the pins? Please explain. And, if you don't see a difference in quality of how the new 500 and 700 are built, then I don't think that you've spent enough time with the 700. Thanks.

In festool's original marketing for the new fence, glue residue is mentioned as one of the factors behind the paddles' introduction so more than one user must have experienced the problem with glue on the pins.

Personally I find the paddles an annoyance so I have them permanently retracted.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Does anyone review based on longevity
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2013, 12:54 PM »
The DF700 is probably the best piece of Festool design and engineering (OF2200 is close). The pins are brilliant. The paddles on the DF500 are rubbish and I keep mine out of the way all of the time.

Peter