Author Topic: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??  (Read 11420 times)

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Offline Michael Kellough

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Routers draw air in from the top and push the air past the motor to keep the armature from overheating. When the router is used normally there is an extra "benefit" in that the air is somewhat effective in blowing the debris away from the working area. When used in a router table that air-stream is pretty annoying, blowing the debris in your face and everywhere, depending on how tightly the table insert encloses the bit.

A well designed dust collection system for a router table should remove debris from the cutting area. But it should not interfere with the makeup air required by the router motor. In this regard the Incra system seems to be a very primitive design.

The Incra Cleansweep is a box that completely envelops the router. The dust extraction port is right below the intake air end of the router. The router fan has to compete with the dust collector and pull air out of a dust and debris laden stream going the opposite direction. How is this good?

To me this simple inexpensive system from Keen Products is the only thing that makes sense.



A flexible silicon shroud fits around the motor shaft effectively blocking debris from falling into the motor. The shroud also provides a port to connect a suitably high velocity dust extractor. (all vacs are high velocity compared to a dust collector and are a better match for the speed of the debris) The system also provides a collection line to the fence to capture the debris from profile milling operations.

You can buy it from Woodcraft or Amazon.

Incra makes some great stuff but I don't get this one...

Provoked by an email from Incra that claimed there dumb box was "superior".
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 12:15 PM by Michael Kellough »

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Online Dovetail65

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The incra set up works better and doesn't hurt the router.

Both these systems are basically copies of things that have been sold for years.

Using a collector with a 4" hose actually keep that router in the Incra box stay cooler if that's your rational for not having it enclosed.. getting to the router for me is never an issue as the router stays in the table all the time.

I have a couple router tables that are enclosed, but until I actually added a box right around the router the dust collection wasn't near as good and the enclosed table got hot. I have had a Milwaukee 3.5 HP router in an encloser very very similar to that of the incra(and that encloser is within an enclosed router table as well) with zero bad effects on the router 7 years later.

Both types of systemswork, the INCRA type works better for me in my shop. I  have a system like the 2nd set up sitting in one of my drawers full of router accessories I dont use anymore.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 12:21 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2016, 12:44 PM »
The clean sweep isn't the only dust extraction either. The incra wonderfence removes dust from directly behind the bit and then through the fence to the extractor. The clean sweep adds additional extraction underneath the bit through the magnalock rings. Personally I'd think the air being pulled across the router motor would help it shed heat quicker and let it run at a lower temperature. That's just my guess though.

I'll be getting the clean sweep down the road for my setup without a doubt.

Offline rst

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2016, 01:44 PM »
I use the Keen Products setup on my self made router table.  I have a Bench Dog lift that I've been using for long before all the other manufacturers copies came out.  I buy self stick velcro to attach the under table collar to my various size inserts.  I like this setup better the the below vac setups as it keeps 99% of the chip filled air away from my PC 7518 motor.

Online Svar

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I never used fully enclosed cabinet dust collection, but I agree with OP. I always thought that the motor there works in a dust cloud recirculating it through its innards, and that can't be good. High concentration of combustive dust and sparks from brushes also make me worried.
On the other hand, I haven't heard anyone complaining about such system, unless air flow inside the cabinet was inadequate causing overheating. That happens when routing a dado, for example, where your material almost entirely blocks the only air intake point. Combined with stationary (low static pressure) dust collector it brings air flow through the box to a halt.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 03:02 PM by Svar »

Offline Cochese

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2016, 03:52 PM »
The first theoretical complaint I've heard about this system. It is designed to be used alongside the Cleansweep rings, which have additional vents to draw in more air and thus more dust. There might be more dust blowing around inside the cabinet, but then again so does just about all the DIY router cabinet designs.

Offline promark747

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2016, 03:54 PM »
I hope it's not a bad idea...I just bought one a few days ago...  [scared]

Online Svar

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2016, 03:57 PM »
The first theoretical complaint I've heard about this system. It is designed to be used alongside the Cleansweep rings, which have additional vents to draw in more air and thus more dust. There might be more dust blowing around inside the cabinet, but then again so does just about all the DIY router cabinet designs.

The complaint about overheating is not theoretical, it's just not from personal experience. Additional vents in the rings make sense. Some users drill holes in the cabinet itself for better ventilation.
Not saying it's overall a bad system. Every system has drawbacks.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 04:02 PM by Svar »

Offline Cochese

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2016, 04:04 PM »
The first theoretical complaint I've heard about this system. It is designed to be used alongside the Cleansweep rings, which have additional vents to draw in more air and thus more dust. There might be more dust blowing around inside the cabinet, but then again so does just about all the DIY router cabinet designs.

The complaint about overheating is not theoretical, it's just not from personal experience. Additional vents in the rings make sense. Some users drill holes in the cabinet itself for better ventilation.
Not saying it's overall a bad system. Every system has drawbacks.

I'm saying the concern about the router overheating due to this system is to this point theoretical - I've not heard of it happening.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2016, 04:06 PM »
    I agree that the under table enclosure set ups seem like a bad idea. I have that type of set up.... 4" hose to a dust collector. DC is excellent. I have often wondered how long the PC7518 motor will last.. But it has been in use for many years. Mine does not have the rings with additional holes just various size solid rings.  I also used to have a vac connected to the Incra Wonder fence. It didn't improve the DC to any noticeable degree by using both so I quit using the through the fence and just stuck with the enclosure.  Never tried through the fence by  itself.


Seth

Online Svar

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2016, 04:13 PM »
I'm saying the concern about the router overheating due to this system is to this point theoretical - I've not heard of it happening.

But I have heard about it happening from a user of shop made cabinet. Hence holes in the cabinets to draw more air, which solved the problem.

Offline Cochese

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2016, 04:22 PM »
I'm saying the concern about the router overheating due to this system is to this point theoretical - I've not heard of it happening.

But I have heard about it happening from a user of shop made cabinet. Hence holes in the cabinets to draw more air, which solved the problem.

I could see that happening with a near-zero clearance opening at the bit, but like I said the CS rings address that.

I'd also say it also depends on use case. A lot of people would be better served with a shaper for high-intensity/long-session routing.

Offline grbmds

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2016, 04:24 PM »
I have the Clean Sweep installed on my Incra table. I've periodically checked the router and residual dust in the Clean Sweep box underneath the table over the past year and found almost none. I use mine with a cyclone dust collector with a 4" connection to the CleanSweep. The dust collection is great; not 100% but close. Even for grooves, dust collection is better than my previous table because there is strong air movement downward. I haven't really owned the table and the PC7518 motor long enough to determine if there would be a decrease in motor life from using the Clean Sweep, but it would seem unlikely due to the air movement and the elimination of almost all dust and chips.

In response to a previous comment for this post, the additional dust collection port on the Incra Wonder Fence works well, but only when the bit is exposed a little and mostly buried in the fence; so when routing on edges mainly. When doing dovetails on the Incra table, this additional collection port doesn't do anything because the chips and dust aren't generated near the opening in the fence. For this type of operation, only the under table collection functions. Sorry if this is obvious to everyone, but just wanted to make sure that those who might be in the market for the Incra table and/or fence know.
Randy

Offline promark747

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2016, 06:14 PM »
On my Wonder Fence, I've found that removing the end cap from the fence (the infeed side, i.e., opposite the vac connection) resulted in better dust collection.  Perhaps better airflow...

Offline Cochese

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2016, 06:24 PM »
The only issue I have with the Wonder Fence is when split, some dust escapes the top.

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2016, 07:39 PM »
I've got a shop made router table/drawers/box enclosure with a 4" DC connection, and a Wonder Fence with a Rigid vacuum attached.  Even when I'm routing next to the fence, some chips still get through straight along the fence in the direction of the cut.  I might try the endcap trick.  I just replaced the old Jessum Mast-R-Lift (not the II) with a new Incra lift that has clean sweep rings, so I'm hoping that will help some.

That aside, I've had a Makita router in the table for going on 15 years and never had trouble with overheating or bearing wear on the router.  It's not running on a production schedule, but it's not running once a month for five minutes either.

Offline rst

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2016, 07:43 PM »
Cochese, just put painters tape over the split and that issue disappears with the Wonderfence.

Offline Cochese

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2016, 07:46 PM »
Cochese, just put painters tape over the split and that issue disappears with the Wonderfence.

I can solve it easily, I wish Incra would have solved that particular issue by now. Those little plastic pieces that are mounted on the top of the fence to show the offset, something like that would be perfect.

Might whip up something and see if I can attach magnetically.

Offline leakyroof

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2016, 12:22 PM »
interesting theory.  For my own router table, which is a stout Benchtop model from Bench Dog, I added a 4" normal DC hose to the Cabinet, with a splitter taking a smaller hose to the dust port at the fence as provided by the Manuf.  Bench Dog was pretty clear in their instructions that you were not supposed to run the router motor in their cabinet without venting it through DC, and the motor isn't even enclosed like the example MK/OP provided.
 I have the big Porter-Cable router mounted to the table, it's never heated up or failed me yet, but, I always run DC air/dust collection when I'm using the router table, even for a brief job.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline JimD

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2016, 06:45 PM »
I used a box enclosure around the router in my table saw extension table and didn't like how hot my PC690 got.  So I took it off.  When I built my separate router table, I put a collection up around the collet inside the cabinet and another on the fence.  Works at least as well and the router doesn't seem to get as hot.  Just makes sense to me to not have the DC fight the router blower.

Offline rst

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2016, 07:30 PM »
With my Keen Dust Router system I use a festool router table hose that I bought on Ebay for a good price...works great.

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2016, 01:04 PM »
I've got a shop made router table/drawers/box enclosure with a 4" DC connection, and a Wonder Fence with a Rigid vacuum attached.  Even when I'm routing next to the fence, some chips still get through straight along the fence in the direction of the cut.  I might try the endcap trick.  I just replaced the old Jessum Mast-R-Lift (not the II) with a new Incra lift that has clean sweep rings, so I'm hoping that will help some.

That aside, I've had a Makita router in the table for going on 15 years and never had trouble with overheating or bearing wear on the router.  It's not running on a production schedule, but it's not running once a month for five minutes either.

I just used the clean sweep rings for the first time.  They did not totally eliminate chips getting through straight along the fence in the direction of the cut, but there was maybe a 75% improvement.  The chips tend to escape during the initial cut, before wood covers the ring.  I assume that is because there is a certain "escape velocity" for the chips, and the more enclosed the bit is, the higher the escape velocity needs to be to overcome the more concentrated flow of air into the ring.  At any rate, it does improve the dust collection nicely, but doesn't eliminate the problem.  The smaller the dust particles, the better the collection.  I assume that the smaller particles don't have enough mass to go against the flow (so to speak), while the chips do.

Offline grbmds

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2016, 01:28 PM »
I've got a shop made router table/drawers/box enclosure with a 4" DC connection, and a Wonder Fence with a Rigid vacuum attached.  Even when I'm routing next to the fence, some chips still get through straight along the fence in the direction of the cut.  I might try the endcap trick.  I just replaced the old Jessum Mast-R-Lift (not the II) with a new Incra lift that has clean sweep rings, so I'm hoping that will help some.

That aside, I've had a Makita router in the table for going on 15 years and never had trouble with overheating or bearing wear on the router.  It's not running on a production schedule, but it's not running once a month for five minutes either.

I just used the clean sweep rings for the first time.  They did not totally eliminate chips getting through straight along the fence in the direction of the cut, but there was maybe a 75% improvement.  The chips tend to escape during the initial cut, before wood covers the ring.  I assume that is because there is a certain "escape velocity" for the chips, and the more enclosed the bit is, the higher the escape velocity needs to be to overcome the more concentrated flow of air into the ring.  At any rate, it does improve the dust collection nicely, but doesn't eliminate the problem.  The smaller the dust particles, the better the collection.  I assume that the smaller particles don't have enough mass to go against the flow (so to speak), while the chips do.

@HarveyWildes How effective the rings and Clean Sweep are depends on more than one factor, I found out. First, while you want to use the ring with the least clearance possible, sometimes using a ring with a larger opening will give better dust collection. Obviously the openings need to remain small enough to prevent the wood from getting caught on the opening edges or tilting into the opening. Second, your dust collection machine makes a difference. For example, I found I get better results using my cyclone dust collector and the full 4" port on the Clean Sweep than if I use my CT48 and narrow the opening down to fit the Festool hose. For rabbets and cuts close to the fence, using both the in-fence collection plus the below table collection eliminates some of the chips you get at first and probably some other chips during the cut (but then I have an Incra Wonder Fence that permits that). I really do get almost all the chips although you are correct that some escape at the front end of the cut. You can reduce that even by edging the wood into the cut which will give the air flow the opportunity to pull a smaller amount of chips and will get almost all of them (depends how important it is to you). I think the Clean Sweep (and, for that matter, any under table collection) is essential and greatly improves the collection compared to without under table collection.
Randy

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2016, 02:02 PM »
@HarveyWildes How effective the rings and Clean Sweep are depends on more than one factor, I found out. First, while you want to use the ring with the least clearance possible, sometimes using a ring with a larger opening will give better dust collection. Obviously the openings need to remain small enough to prevent the wood from getting caught on the opening edges or tilting into the opening. Second, your dust collection machine makes a difference. For example, I found I get better results using my cyclone dust collector and the full 4" port on the Clean Sweep than if I use my CT48 and narrow the opening down to fit the Festool hose. For rabbets and cuts close to the fence, using both the in-fence collection plus the below table collection eliminates some of the chips you get at first and probably some other chips during the cut (but then I have an Incra Wonder Fence that permits that). I really do get almost all the chips although you are correct that some escape at the front end of the cut. You can reduce that even by edging the wood into the cut which will give the air flow the opportunity to pull a smaller amount of chips and will get almost all of them (depends how important it is to you). I think the Clean Sweep (and, for that matter, any under table collection) is essential and greatly improves the collection compared to without under table collection.

Yep - that's my setup also, except I'm using a Rigid vacuum on the fence, and I pretty much agree on all points.  On rabbets and other edging tasks, once I'm past the initial cut, the dust collection is nearly 100% and on grooves the chips do not pack into the groove like they used to.

But - not exactly sure what you mean by edging the wood into the cut.  Could you elaborate?

Offline grbmds

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2016, 10:23 PM »
@HarveyWildes How effective the rings and Clean Sweep are depends on more than one factor, I found out. First, while you want to use the ring with the least clearance possible, sometimes using a ring with a larger opening will give better dust collection. Obviously the openings need to remain small enough to prevent the wood from getting caught on the opening edges or tilting into the opening. Second, your dust collection machine makes a difference. For example, I found I get better results using my cyclone dust collector and the full 4" port on the Clean Sweep than if I use my CT48 and narrow the opening down to fit the Festool hose. For rabbets and cuts close to the fence, using both the in-fence collection plus the below table collection eliminates some of the chips you get at first and probably some other chips during the cut (but then I have an Incra Wonder Fence that permits that). I really do get almost all the chips although you are correct that some escape at the front end of the cut. You can reduce that even by edging the wood into the cut which will give the air flow the opportunity to pull a smaller amount of chips and will get almost all of them (depends how important it is to you). I think the Clean Sweep (and, for that matter, any under table collection) is essential and greatly improves the collection compared to without under table collection.

Yep - that's my setup also, except I'm using a Rigid vacuum on the fence, and I pretty much agree on all points.  On rabbets and other edging tasks, once I'm past the initial cut, the dust collection is nearly 100% and on grooves the chips do not pack into the groove like they used to.

But - not exactly sure what you mean by edging the wood into the cut.  Could you elaborate?
@HarveyWildes Sorry I wasn't clear. I just meant that when I start the cut very slowly, fewer chips escape.
Randy

Offline juststartingout

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2016, 06:20 PM »
I have the Keen products on my router table and on my jobsite table saw(Dust Cutter II).  The gear is well made for hobbyists like myself.  One thing I would like to mention is that the company is PHENOMENAL!!!  I called Keen for an exchange due to a part I needed replaced from my own fault.  The company sent me an email apologizing for the delay(the founder--the respndents father) had just passed.  They sent me the replacement part before my sending payment. 

I have to say, I felt great about the legacy the Daughter is trying to keep up for her father, and I don't know anything about Incra, but I actually made a box for myself along with the keen products. 

Again, I CAN definitely recommend the Keen Products!

Oscar
MFT3, TS55, CT 26, OF1400, RO90, RO150, Carvex PS 420 EBQ, Domino 500, and dreaming of a Kapex.

Offline grbmds

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2016, 06:38 PM »
Too bad when I needed the attachment they weren't selling it during their transition. I would have liked to try it but it just wasn't available and, since the delay was indefinite, I chose not to wait. I love my Incra and Clean Sweep though. I couldn't ask for anything more.
Randy

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2016, 05:50 PM »
I use the Rockler version of the under table dust bin idea (LINK) along with the Incra lift with the Clean Sweep Magnetic Inserts all in a BenchDog cast iron table. The drop coming from my 3HP Oneida V-3000 dust collector gets gradually sized down via wye branches to 4" where it splits off with a wye (NOT a T) to a 2.5" that goes the router tables fence dust port. I actually believe using the Rockler box helps cool the router as it has an adjustable circular side vent which a fully open sucks in a ton of air which in turn passes buy the router motor. LOVE this setup, there is never any dust in the bin nor on the table.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 06:11 PM by ben_r_ »
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Offline big K

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2016, 09:08 PM »
The only issue I have with the Wonder Fence is when split, some dust escapes the top.

I had the same issue with my WonderFence, found it real annoying. I made a wood block, probably 2 1/2" wide, that fits over the fins of the WF's extrusions on top with a small down-fence in back to sit over the top opening and it resolved the problem permanently.

I have two enclosures around my twin router table that are hooked up to dust collection, and they made my router table darn near dust free. The enclosures are red sheet metal boxes that were once sold by Hartville Tools, but they are discontinued now. These boxes have access doors to get at the router and do have small slots cut around the top of the box for additional air flow to aid with dust extraction.

I use both the box and fence DC connections with 4" hose to both running to a 6-4-4 Y and blastgate. Dust collection isn't quite perfect, but darn near.

Offline kono0014

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Re: Incra Cleansweep router table dust collection, is it a bad idea??
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2016, 12:27 AM »
Not sure it has been mentioned but another benefit of the Incra Cleansweep is the sound reduction.  I have even thought about adding a couple pads of insulation on the inside of the box to even further reduce the sound but haven't got around to experimenting.  VERY noticeable sound reduction as is though.  I love mine and I will concur that the router never gets hot as the air moving past it is significant.  No issues whatsoever.