Author Topic: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review  (Read 13170 times)

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Offline Atonwa

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TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« on: August 01, 2017, 09:19 AM »
I'm a big fan of dogs with my MFT so when TSO's new ones were released I jumped on them to try them out. I do a wide variety of work so the MFT is simply the best option for handling an array of different workholding. The dogs make it very easy to set up work steps and ensure everything stays square and true.

This review will break down the new TSO dogs and accessories as well as compare them against the QWAS and PARF dogs.



Here is the array of dogs and knobs that I have. QWAS dogs on the left with a Festool knob from the clamping elements set. TSO dogs with their new SpeedKnob in the middle. Finally, the PARF dogs with their clamping knob on the right.



We will start with the dogs themselves. The TSO dogs bring a new feature of the double grooves to the top of the dog. This greatly enhances the ability to install and remove the dog into your bench or MFT. My shop is in a humidity controlled basement which keeps my MFT MDF top probably at the low end of tolerance for the holes. Fit wise these run very close to the PARF dogs at about .784" in diameter. The set of QWAS dogs run a bit larger at .786" which in my MFT give them a snug fit. If I was in a humid environment and needed dogs to install and remove easily the TSO would be the choice due to the new grooves. Fit and finish wise the TSO look and feel nice with a tumbled finish and clear anodize. The QWAS has a higher surface finish which makes them feel smoother but that is a catch .22 when trying to grip them and get them out of a tight tolerance MFT table. The PARF being SS have no coating and are held to a similar surface finish to the TSO. Overall the TSO and PARF are dimensionally the same in the small dog with the addition of the double grooves and the undercut at the head of the dog.



Next we'll move on to the tall dogs. QWAS makes a rail dog which you see on the left but is not a direct comparison so we'll stick to the PARF and TSO for this review. THE TSO dog is slightly taller than the PARF dog and adds three features that really sets it apart. First, the double groove that was incorporated in the smaller dogs makes it much easier to install and remove the dog in the table. Second, the tapered top of the dog makes it much easier to install the rail clip when attached to a guide rail. Not many of us in the US may have gotten to use these UJK clips but we were definitely missing out as they are very handy. Third and this one may be a pro to some and con to others but the weight difference between the SS PARF and aluminum TSO is huge. I much prefer the design features of the TSO and weight of the aluminum. The SS is basically indestructible so if I was getting robbed it would be the first item I pick up and launch at the attacker as it is the heaviest projectile in my shop. [smile]



So real world use of the tall dog? The LR32 system is a perfect example if you have used it. Sliding the big heavy router across the guide rail usually requires multiple clamping of the material to the table and guide to the material to ensure an accurate row of holes. Here I simply install the tall dogs with rail clips to the table, mark and move my material under the rail to the proper mark and use the Festool rapid clamp to grab the material. It makes the set up of repeated cabinets much easier and I was able to blast through the LR32 step of my new shop cabinets.

I'm going to say that if you order the tall dogs in most cases, knobs are a must. A quick test on my MFT table with this setup allowed the rail to move 1/16" of an inch on the material with no knobs attached due to the tolerance of the dog to the table. With the knob there was no movement at all. Now with the the material clamped to the rail this shouldn't be a concern but in some instances that may not be possible.



With the rail clips you can leave them attached to the rail to quickly remove by sliding them over the top of the tall dog and reinstalling the same way. The tapered top makes it easy to align and install.





Finally let's talk about the knobs. When I read on the website that TSO calls them Speedknobs but the dogs can be used with the Festool knobs I was kind of confused and initially didn't order these. If they both fit then they must be the same thread so they didn't go to a quarter turn screw or anything was my justification and I fully admit I hate using knobs with dogs. I've been down on the PARF dogs because of the relative fit in my table as they were very loose without knobs. I am honestly apologizing about that and after some discussions with Hans at TSO I understand the rational in sizing due to variations in the MDF top holes. I'm still not a huge fan but these SpeedKnobs brought me around a bit on using knobs.

Most of you are familiar with the Festool knobs, they are large with a grip on the underside to tighten down. They are slightly slippery and relatively light in weight so you have to fully thread them all the turns to lock the dog on the top of the table. The PARF dogs are smaller as you can see, similar plastic in feel and weight to the Festool but with the benefit of the lobed knob which gives you slightly better grip when working blind under the table.

So what changed my opinion on the SpeedKnobs? Hans provided that they are made in Germany and you can definitely tell. These things exude quality and honestly every knob I have to turn now I'm thinking how do I replace it with one of these  [big grin] Very high quality smooth plastic, a heavier weight and a screw thread with a tapered end which makes it easier to find the dog thread under the table and not counter thread it. The speed comes from being able to start the screw thread and with the increased heft and perfectly machined threads simply "spin" the knob until it seats against the table bottom. Then a quick final tightening and your done. Same with loosening. Simply break it free, give it a spin and it drops in your hand. I'm sold and every other knob is an utter disappointment to me now....

Conclusion

So if I was new to Festool and deciding what dogs and system to buy? Everyone on the other side of the pond already got the joy of the UJK rail clips so it's about time us US folks got them. Really a must buy on those. To use them you have to have a tall dog. If I was working outside the shop where the possibility of drops onto concrete, metal, etc were a huge concern then the SS PARF dogs would be the go to dog as they are basically indestructible. Shop based and outside work with a portable MFT the TSO's new features and lighter weight make them much easier to transport and use every day. Go ahead and order them with the SpeedKnobs. Not only will you get a much more secure mounting but you'll use the knob on your clamping elements and any other item you own that the thread matches.

Onto the dogs, this is a harder decision. If you work in a humid environment where your MFT or Bench may swell then the new TSO dogs would be your best bet. They will install and should be a good fit without the need for knobs. If your like me in a controlled shop environment then you may find they are a bit loose and may require knobs for a tight, precise fit. (I understand the concept and physics that the dogs will find an edge and stay precise if your material is clamped to the table). Again if you work somewhere where the aluminum may be damaged then the PARF dogs can't be beat for durability. Due to the slighter larger diameter that better fits my MFT & bench, the smaller head and surface finish I still reach for the QWAS dogs for my own use right now. I really like the TSO dogs and they will be my go to dog for when I leave the shop and do onsite fabrication and installs.

If anyone has any questions that I can help answer feel free. Full disclosure, I paid for all of my dogs and clips but Hans provided me a set of SpeedKnobs after he reached out when I said I was unhappy with the PARF dogs due to the fit. With the size similar to the PARF he was concerned I may see the same issue which I did without a knob. I plan to purchase more SpeedKnobs shortly to use with my clamping elements and dogs as they are that high quality. Also I eat my crow on the PARF dog fit also as I fully understand it now Peter. The great thing is we now have multiple options to choose from for any type of work or environment we may find ourselves in so thanks to all the companies making these.
 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:31 AM by Atonwa »

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Offline jonathan-m

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 04:57 AM »
Hi, I was wondering if these TSO dogs fit Peter Parfitt's Parf Guide System for drilling MFT top holes without slop?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:04 AM by jonathan-m »
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Offline Atonwa

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 07:06 AM »
They are almost the exact same size as his style down to the .001" of an inch so yes they should work fine. Now I can't guarantee any slop unless you use the Speedknobs because of the differences in bit diameter and possibility of humidity that may affect the MDF top.

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 07:54 AM »
Can you elaborate on how the setup is beneficial with the lr32 system? I'm just not getting it. I haven't used it but I've watched all the videos.

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2017, 08:32 AM »
It would be nice if TSO in the hole made two sizes of dogs. I find them a little too sloppy the hole for my taste. I like the reviewer above use them in a climate controlled shop. I can use dogs but my custom built Jack Bench with 20mm top is not user friendly for attaching the knobs.

Jack Lemley

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2017, 10:32 AM »
I'm building a bench with a thick top (1.5" or so).  My wish list includes knobs that will work on that bench.

Offline Atonwa

  • Posts: 44
Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 11:10 AM »
I'm building a bench with a thick top (1.5" or so).  My wish list includes knobs that will work on that bench.

The large dogs should work in your case.

Offline Atonwa

  • Posts: 44
Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 11:13 AM »
It would be nice if TSO in the hole made two sizes of dogs. I find them a little too sloppy the hole for my taste. I like the reviewer above use them in a climate controlled shop. I can use dogs but my custom built Jack Bench with 20mm top is not user friendly for attaching the knobs.

Jack Lemley

Agree Jack and I've talked to Hans about this. Without the knobs they are sloppy in mine especially the tall dogs.

Offline Atonwa

  • Posts: 44
Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 11:26 AM »
Can you elaborate on how the setup is beneficial with the lr32 system? I'm just not getting it. I haven't used it but I've watched all the videos.

Sorry it wasn't clear, it's hard to put into words sometimes. Basically the idea is attaching the tall dogs to your MFT or bench, attaching the LR32 rail to the tall dogs to the clips so it is captured and stationary. Then I simply mark my panel at the correct places for the holes and bring the panel to the rail instead of the other way around. Then clamp the rail to the material with a speed clamp and start drilling the holes.

The next batch I did after this review I attached the rail to the tall dogs. Put short dogs in the table and made a set of wood spacers that references off the small dogs so the row of holes was exactly the same. I've attached a picture for reference.

Offline RobBob

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 11:55 AM »
Yep, Qwas dogs are the best fitting.  The bevel under the collar is the reason, I think.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:35 PM by RobBob »

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 04:05 PM »
@Atonwa I think I get it. You primarily enjoy using it for the middle row of holes for repeat settings? For the front/back rows of holes the LR32 rail and stops do the job or are you suggesting you avoid having to use them after the first setup by using dogs and custom spacers?

Offline kitui

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2018, 03:49 PM »
Sorry, I am missing one point: can I use the Parf (Veritas) clamping knobs with the TSO long dogs (that comes with the clips) instead of the speedknobs? Thanks

Offline morts10n

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2018, 12:37 PM »
Has it been noted anywhere that the TSO guide rail dog combo pack (with UJK clips) cannot be used with a TS55REQ saw? The motor of the saw hits the dogs in use!! Very disappointing, and useless for the intended purchase.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2018, 01:41 PM »
Has it been noted anywhere that the TSO guide rail dog combo pack (with UJK clips) cannot be used with a TS55REQ saw? The motor of the saw hits the dogs in use!! Very disappointing, and useless for the intended purchase.

@morts10n  your post is partially correct. So let me fill in "the rest of the story. . ."
When the size of the work piece and the worktop (shop made or MFT ) force you to place the Tall Dogs closer than about 7 inches from either end of your cut,  the saw/motor housing  will not clear either the TSO Tall Dogs or Lee Valley VERITAS Large Stainless ParfDogs.

There is no interference if you working on smaller panels and/or a larger 20mm worktop.

When one of our customers pointed this out we promptly developed a solution in the form of our preliminary part 610-245  and sent a set at no charge to this customer. He confirmed it solves this problem.

@morts10n:   if you purchased a set of TSO Tall Dogs and would like to exchange them at no charge for a set of the shorter "Clipped or Stubby" Dogs, please let us know.

If we receive enough interest we will produce a larger batch and make it available on our website.

see picture below.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Tinker

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2018, 01:59 PM »
quote>>>@morts10n:   if you purchased a set of TSO Tall Dogs and would like to exchange them at no charge for a set of the shorter "Clipped or Stubby" Dogs, please let us know. <<<quote

how much hotter are the "Stubby" dogs than the TSO Tall Dogs?  I use 1/2" MDF under my rails so when using my TS55, i do not cut into my table top.  Would my TS 55 clear the Tall dogs with the 1/2" strips between table and saw?
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2018, 02:22 PM »
Hi, I was wondering if these TSO dogs fit Peter Parfitt's Parf Guide System for drilling MFT top holes without slop?

@jonathan-m- we have been working this Dog dimension and tolerances issue ever since we designed the TSO 18" Triangles: MTR-18 and PTR-18.
What we learned was that worktop hole patterns and tolerances vary considerably - even on original FESTOOL MFT tops. Not huge - but measurable. Machining our Triangles and the 20mm registration holes in them accurately with very close tolerances is no problem with our Precision CNC Milling Machines, - BUT - ensuring that the customer who uses these Triangles can get them to connect to his or her worktop is another matter.
After evaluation every conceivable Dog on the market and on the advice of some very seasoned Pro's on this very forum we settled on clearance tolerances for our general purpose line of Dogs. We recommend using them with knobs - ours or anyone else's - to help center the Dog by pulling the collar of the Dog snug against the worksurface ensuring a perpendicular alignment.

But there is more to this:
thanks to our friend Peter Parfitt and AXMINSTER's precision machining on the Parf Guide System it is possible for any woodworker to make their own very accurate hole diameter and hole pattern worktop.

To achieve the optimal accuracy the Parf Guide System is capable of, requires a very close tolerance diameter Dog.
We have just begun shipping these new Close Tolerance Dogs. To distinguish them from our general purpose Dogs, we have added a concentric groove in the top of each Close Tolerance Dog.
Because we see the need for both general purpose tolerance Dogs and Close Tolerance Dogs for use with Parf Guide System we will shortly offer teh Close Tolerance Dogs as the Small-CT Dog.

We have worked very closely with Axminster's engineering staff and talked with Peter Parfitt to help us choose practical tolerances for each application. We have more work to do to communicate with our customers on these points.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming - along with your orders, too  [wink]

Hans




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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2018, 02:27 PM »
quote>>>@morts10n:   if you purchased a set of TSO Tall Dogs and would like to exchange them at no charge for a set of the shorter "Clipped or Stubby" Dogs, please let us know. <<<quote

how much hotter are the "Stubby" dogs than the TSO Tall Dogs?  I use 1/2" MDF under my rails so when using my TS55, i do not cut into my table top.  Would my TS 55 clear the Tall dogs with the 1/2" strips between table and saw?
Tinker
@Tinker  TSO's Tall Dog measures 70mm above the collar - 80mm above the worksurface
The "Stubby" dog measures just 30mm above the collar - 40mm above the worksurface and omits the tapered top feature.

Hans
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2018, 02:36 PM »
Sorry, I am missing one point: can I use the Parf (Veritas) clamping knobs with the TSO long dogs (that comes with the clips) instead of the speedknobs? Thanks

@kitui - yes you can use your Veritas knobs with any of the TSO Dogs. They all are tapped for 8mm threads. For once there is a generally accepted standard [smile]

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2018, 04:59 PM »
Hans.

Will those of use who receive your news letter be notified when the close tolerance dogs are added to your website? I would like to get a couple of them.

Thanks
Jack

Online justaguy

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2018, 06:39 PM »
Hans I sent email to TSO I’d like a pair of the stubby dogs as well

Thanks

Offline kitui

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2018, 08:26 AM »
I would like to buy the TSO Dog rail combo pack (dogs and clips) but now that I read about a shorter version that does not interfere with the TS55REQ motor, should I wait? I do not see the stubby dogs on the web site yet. Please advise. Thanks

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2018, 08:53 AM »
to all: re Stubby Dog
we will announce availability details via the TSO INSIDER newsletter. Expect approx 60 days from now for availability

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline kitui

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2018, 01:53 PM »
I really cannot wait that long. I will hung in there with the long dogs.

Offline Svar

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2018, 02:12 PM »
I really cannot wait that long. I will hung in there with the long dogs.
Just cut them shorter with a hacksaw (angle grinder if stainless steel).

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2018, 06:38 PM »
Hans,

What about the close tolerance dogs?

Thanks
 Jack
Hans.

Will those of use who receive your news letter be notified when the close tolerance dogs are added to your website? I would like to get a couple of them.

Thanks
Jack

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 10:43 AM »
Hans,

What about the close tolerance dogs?

Thanks
 Jack
Hans.

Will those of use who receive your news letter be notified when the close tolerance dogs are added to your website? I would like to get a couple of them.

Thanks
Jack

All:
CT-Dogs, the newest addition to our workholding line-up, will be available to order and ship sometime next week after 1-31-2018. We will also notify all PARF GUIDE SYSTEM Purchasers via the TSO INSIDER newsletter of the availability of free exchange CT-Dogs.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2018, 10:55 AM »
So can I swap my tall rail dogs out for the stubby version

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2018, 12:31 PM »
So can I swap my tall rail dogs out for the stubby version

@DynaGlide  - give us an opportunity to get Stubby Dogs produced, in stock and up on the website sometime in March. We'll figure out the best ways to serve customers who have other versions of Dogs and also want Stubby DOgs.

The TSO INSIDER will have more as we get them in stock.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline blaszcsj

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 12:33 PM »
@TSO Products Sounds like you need to ask festool for the GD&T call out for the MFT holes. Knowing the tolerance they hold the table to, you could then accurately understand what to make the corresponding holes in your tools to. I doubt they would give up the manufacturing tolerances though...

Hi, I was wondering if these TSO dogs fit Peter Parfitt's Parf Guide System for drilling MFT top holes without slop?

@jonathan-m- we have been working this Dog dimension and tolerances issue ever since we designed the TSO 18" Triangles: MTR-18 and PTR-18.
What we learned was that worktop hole patterns and tolerances vary considerably - even on original FESTOOL MFT tops. Not huge - but measurable. Machining our Triangles and the 20mm registration holes in them accurately with very close tolerances is no problem with our Precision CNC Milling Machines, - BUT - ensuring that the customer who uses these Triangles can get them to connect to his or her worktop is another matter.
After evaluation every conceivable Dog on the market and on the advice of some very seasoned Pro's on this very forum we settled on clearance tolerances for our general purpose line of Dogs. We recommend using them with knobs - ours or anyone else's - to help center the Dog by pulling the collar of the Dog snug against the worksurface ensuring a perpendicular alignment.

But there is more to this:
thanks to our friend Peter Parfitt and AXMINSTER's precision machining on the Parf Guide System it is possible for any woodworker to make their own very accurate hole diameter and hole pattern worktop.

To achieve the optimal accuracy the Parf Guide System is capable of, requires a very close tolerance diameter Dog.
We have just begun shipping these new Close Tolerance Dogs. To distinguish them from our general purpose Dogs, we have added a concentric groove in the top of each Close Tolerance Dog.
Because we see the need for both general purpose tolerance Dogs and Close Tolerance Dogs for use with Parf Guide System we will shortly offer teh Close Tolerance Dogs as the Small-CT Dog.

We have worked very closely with Axminster's engineering staff and talked with Peter Parfitt to help us choose practical tolerances for each application. We have more work to do to communicate with our customers on these points.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming - along with your orders, too  [wink]

Hans
OF1010 EQ Router | MFT/3 | DF500Q | Carvex 420 | ETS EC 150/3 | CT 36 Auto Clean | TSC55 | LR32 | OF1400 EQ Router | ZOBO Metric Set | CXS Li 2.6 - 90 Limited Edition | Universal Cleaning Set | HKC55 | Centrotec CE-SORT | RO150 FEQ | DTS 400 | RO90 DX | CTSYS | C18 Drill | SysLite KALII | Syslite STL 450 | RAS 115 E

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO 20mm Workholding Accessories Review
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2018, 01:30 PM »
good idea but, like you, I doubt Festool would give up their manufacturing tolerances. In any event, you still have woodworkers out there with various other sources of 20mm worktop patterns.

I have not seen any evidence that Festool claims the MFT hole pattern to be anything more than openings for clamps.

FWIW: the extremely precise and close tolerance Super Parf Dogs do not fit equally well in all the holes in our brand new MFT/3 top. Some go in easy, others I have to push hard and they are hard to pull out - evidence of variations in hole diameters.

Our CNC machined MTR-18 and PTR-18 Triangles with very precisely spaced Dog hole locations have Super Parf Dogs encountering various degrees of ease or difficulty in getting them to align with the MFT holes.

ALl this are reasons why we have gone to two Dog dimensions and tolerances:
One general purpose for everyday practical use - with SpeedKnobs from below where needed
One CT-Dog version dimensioned for the very close tolerances of the ParfGuideSystem and tops made with it.

Hope that helps.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions