Author Topic: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question  (Read 3015 times)

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Offline patriot

  • Posts: 80
    • Wood Working By Design
I've been researching info on the minimax mm16 and came across an article that implied that there was an issue with the 'smaller 16-inch wheels' breaking 1-inch Lenox carbide-tipped bandsaw blades.  There were no details given, so this may not be the norm.

Does anyone have any experience with this or even heard of it?

Thanks!
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

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Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 704
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 08:31 PM »
It is a really problem with the smaller wheel bandsaws, the tighter radius bends and fatigues the blades more over time. Not really going to be an issue in the low use hobby world but in the commercial higher production its a problem. Laguna had a lot issues also with their early Resaw King Blades and them being used on their smaller bandsaws. They improved the problem by going to a thinner blade material. The other issue is proper tensioning of these blades to get good life and a superior cut. I currently run Lenox Woodmaster CT with no issues on a Felder FB600 which is about the size of a 24" NA bandsaw.

John

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1740
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 09:16 PM »
I run a Wood Slicer blade in my big bandsaw for resawing. Cuts exotics like butter and mine have stayed sharp through extended use. Highland Woodworking sells them.
Birdhunter

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 80
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 10:27 PM »
It is a really problem with the smaller wheel bandsaws, the tighter radius bends and fatigues the blades more over time. Not really going to be an issue in the low use hobby world but in the commercial higher production its a problem. Laguna had a lot issues also with their early Resaw King Blades and them being used on their smaller bandsaws. They improved the problem by going to a thinner blade material. The other issue is proper tensioning of these blades to get good life and a superior cut. I currently run Lenox Woodmaster CT with no issues on a Felder FB600 which is about the size of a 24" NA bandsaw.

John

Thanks for your post, John.

The only reason that I am purchasing a mm16 'category' bandsaw is because I have two elm quarter-trunk's about 7.5-feet in length and I need a bandsaw that will handle that load.  I also have a lot miscellaneous wood that needs to be cut and saved.

I think it is a bit crazy to purchase an expensive bs to cut my stock, but it took a lot of work to gather it up so I may as well save it as best I can as I know I will find many uses for it later on.  However, to do that I need a bs that will do the job.



« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 10:19 AM by patriot »
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 80
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Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 10:30 PM »
I run a Wood Slicer blade in my big bandsaw for resawing. Cuts exotics like butter and mine have stayed sharp through extended use. Highland Woodworking sells them.

Thanks for your post.

I've been using Wood Slicer's for over ten years or so.  They're great on my INCA 710, but the INCA is no match for the stock I need to cut.  I do agree that the WS's do a heck of a job.  Good BS blades.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline patriot

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Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 10:32 PM »
@kcufstoidi

So, in your opinion, would the mm20 be a better choice or do you think I can find dependable blades for the mm16 to cut the stock in the photos?

Whatever I get I know I will have to build a slide to get the quarter-logs past the blade as they are very heavy.

Thanks.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 704
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 12:35 AM »
In my world as far as a Bandsaw goes bigger is always better as long as its a quality unit and you have the room. You need a saw that can can tension a 1" carbide tipped blade. If your thinking about a Minimax its probably not a bad idea to checkout the Minimax forum. I've used a lot of different blades and Woodmaster CT is a great blade for reasonable price IMHO. I've probably run at least 10,000 lineal feet of material through it and it's still going strong.

John

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 121
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 03:51 AM »
First, I'll talk about the aside in form of the Woodslicer.  The Woodslicer is what I consider a niche blade.  It is a impulse hardened spring steel blade "borrowed" from the meat cutting industry, the same blade stock is sold by Spectrum and Iturra as the Kerfmaster and Bladerunner for significantly less money than Highland charges.  It has very little set and produces veneer cuts as smooth as most carbide blades but dulls VERY quickly due to the very soft teeth (Rc 40-52 where as even standard carbon blades are Rc 63-64).  The niches that it fits in are on small saws that can't properly tension a thicker band, when one needs the thinnest possible kerf to save precious veneer wood or when you just need to resaw once in a blue moon but still want minimal post resawing surface prep.  Also for milling these blades are a poor choice due to lack of swarf clearance related to their lack of set.

One of the biggest concerns when milling logs is the size of the table and/or your care setting up infeed/outfeed support.  Honestly, none of the MM professional line (up to and including the MM24) really have a large enough table to avoid a lot of extra support but that is easy to accomplish.

Blade wise I don't mill on my saws with $250 plus carbide blades since there is too high of a chance to destroy a blade, I simply use a carbon low TPI 1.3-2 blade in the 1 to 1 1/2" range, if I plan to cut veneer from it I block it out first them move to a saw with a carbide blade since I trust my metal detector more with thinner stock.  I would cut what you have on a MM16 with a 1" Woodmaster C (not CT) 1/3 TPI blade. 

As for veneer cutting carbide blades for the MM16 I would suggest a 3/4" Trimaster 3-4 tpi variable pitch or a Laguna 3/4 or 1" Resaw King.  The MM16 is going to be a little low on tension for the thicker Lenox blades but a 1" is fine in the thinner gauge RK.  The Woodmaster CT doesn't come thinner than 1" and also doesn't provide quite as smooth a cut as the other two due to being lower TPI and has higher amplitude harmonics due to not being available in variable pitch in the 1" size. 

In the end the MM16 with proper blade choice will handle your jobs just fine.  It will need to extra attention with support for the longer pieces but will handle the smaller ones without a lot of extra support. 

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 80
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 10:21 AM »
In my world as far as a Bandsaw goes bigger is always better as long as its a quality unit and you have the room. You need a saw that can can tension a 1" carbide tipped blade. If your thinking about a Minimax its probably not a bad idea to checkout the Minimax forum. I've used a lot of different blades and Woodmaster CT is a great blade for reasonable price IMHO. I've probably run at least 10,000 lineal feet of material through it and it's still going strong.

John

Thanks for your post, John.  I will indeed check out the minimax forum.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 80
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 11:00 AM »
First, I'll talk about the aside in form of the Woodslicer.  The Woodslicer is what I consider a niche blade.  It is a impulse hardened spring steel blade "borrowed" from the meat cutting industry, the same blade stock is sold by Spectrum and Iturra as the Kerfmaster and Bladerunner for significantly less money than Highland charges.  It has very little set and produces veneer cuts as smooth as most carbide blades but dulls VERY quickly due to the very soft teeth (Rc 40-52 where as even standard carbon blades are Rc 63-64).  The niches that it fits in are on small saws that can't properly tension a thicker band, when one needs the thinnest possible kerf to save precious veneer wood or when you just need to resaw once in a blue moon but still want minimal post resawing surface prep.  Also for milling these blades are a poor choice due to lack of swarf clearance related to their lack of set.

One of the biggest concerns when milling logs is the size of the table and/or your care setting up infeed/outfeed support.  Honestly, none of the MM professional line (up to and including the MM24) really have a large enough table to avoid a lot of extra support but that is easy to accomplish.

Blade wise I don't mill on my saws with $250 plus carbide blades since there is too high of a chance to destroy a blade, I simply use a carbon low TPI 1.3-2 blade in the 1 to 1 1/2" range, if I plan to cut veneer from it I block it out first them move to a saw with a carbide blade since I trust my metal detector more with thinner stock.  I would cut what you have on a MM16 with a 1" Woodmaster C (not CT) 1/3 TPI blade. 

As for veneer cutting carbide blades for the MM16 I would suggest a 3/4" Trimaster 3-4 tpi variable pitch or a Laguna 3/4 or 1" Resaw King.  The MM16 is going to be a little low on tension for the thicker Lenox blades but a 1" is fine in the thinner gauge RK.  The Woodmaster CT doesn't come thinner than 1" and also doesn't provide quite as smooth a cut as the other two due to being lower TPI and has higher amplitude harmonics due to not being available in variable pitch in the 1" size. 

In the end the MM16 with proper blade choice will handle your jobs just fine.  It will need to extra attention with support for the longer pieces but will handle the smaller ones without a lot of extra support.

Thank you very much for your extremely informative post.  I'm beginning to feel better about the 16-inch wheels of the mm16.

I just took a look at this BS vendor and the the 154-inch BS blades to your  spec - 1-inch wide with 1.3 TPI - are only $22.63.  I must have made some mistake becasue these long blades seem to be very inexpensive.

I will heed your advice and look into all of the other blades you have recommended as well.  I have a Hammer K3 on the way and need to make certain that I am getting the correct BS to handle all of the wood stock I have gathered over the years.  I don't mind spending $$, but I would hate to end up with a BS that would not handle the major work I have planned for it.  And, yes, resawing is also an important consideration as well.

Thank you very much for your help.

'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4032
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 12:38 PM »
I just run regular old bands on all my BS.  I do have a bimetal band for thick, or tropical wood.

Regular bands cost me about 18 bucks for 19 footers. 

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 80
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 01:24 PM »
I just run regular old bands on all my BS.  I do have a bimetal band for thick, or tropical wood.

Regular bands cost me about 18 bucks for 19 footers.

And to think that I have been paying $30+ for 104-inch Wood Slicer's!  And I have purchased about 20 or so of them??  I need to get my head out from under the rocks. I will say that they have cut some great veneer for me, but as noted earlier, they do dull rather quickly.

Thanks for your post.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 704
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 01:41 PM »
You guys are really paying a lot for carbide blades, I just checked the price of the low end Starret that Patriot linked to, 181.00 USD, Last Lenox I bought was 135.00 CDN for 181". With are dollar currently sucking so bad that should be under 100.00 USD. While I can see and have used the cheap blades I've had such good cuts and life with the carbide I won't go back. They seem to cut through most nails and fencing without much issue, the current blade has two pieces of carbide missing after thousands of lineal feet.

John

 

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4032
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 03:33 PM »
Not suppose to cut curves with carbide blades. I do not resaw enough to justify a 300.00 band, nor do I want to change it out all the time (even having two large saws set up all the time).

Bi metal blades are a great compromise at a decent cost of 60 or so for 19 feet.

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 121
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 06:10 AM »
You guys are really paying a lot for carbide blades, I just checked the price of the low end Starret that Patriot linked to, 181.00 USD, Last Lenox I bought was 135.00 CDN for 181". With are dollar currently sucking so bad that should be under 100.00 USD. While I can see and have used the cheap blades I've had such good cuts and life with the carbide I won't go back. They seem to cut through most nails and fencing without much issue, the current blade has two pieces of carbide missing after thousands of lineal feet.

John

Where are you finding Woodmaster CT for less than a $1 US an inch or Trimaster for less than $1.40 an inch?

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 121
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 06:16 AM »
I just run regular old bands on all my BS.  I do have a bimetal band for thick, or tropical wood.

Regular bands cost me about 18 bucks for 19 footers.

And to think that I have been paying $30+ for 104-inch Wood Slicer's!  And I have purchased about 20 or so of them??  I need to get my head out from under the rocks. I will say that they have cut some great veneer for me, but as noted earlier, they do dull rather quickly.

Thanks for your post.

The Kerfmaster from Spectrum (same blade stock and more size options including an ultra narrow .016" in 5/8") is around $16 or $17 for a 8' 8" blade.  A standard carbon blade like a Lenox Flexback shouldn't cost more than $11 or $12

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 704
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 07:49 AM »
You guys are really paying a lot for carbide blades, I just checked the price of the low end Starret that Patriot linked to, 181.00 USD, Last Lenox I bought was 135.00 CDN for 181". With are dollar currently sucking so bad that should be under 100.00 USD. While I can see and have used the cheap blades I've had such good cuts and life with the carbide I won't go back. They seem to cut through most nails and fencing without much issue, the current blade has two pieces of carbide missing after thousands of lineal feet.

John


Where are you finding Woodmaster CT for less than a $1 US an inch or Trimaster for less than $1.40 an inch?

A local supplier, Honig Industrial in Toronto. I don't use the Trimaster so I don't know where you got $1.40 an from.

You discuss cut quality from other blades and I know the typical hobbiest can't get their head around a higher cost blade because of the perceived damage potential. I process a lot of wood through the bandsaw using carbide and everything gets checked with a quality metal detector and after cutting, cleaned up in the planer and/or 15" widebelt. I don't know any blade that gives finish quality cuts.

John

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 121
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 06:32 PM »
You guys are really paying a lot for carbide blades, I just checked the price of the low end Starret that Patriot linked to, 181.00 USD, Last Lenox I bought was 135.00 CDN for 181". With are dollar currently sucking so bad that should be under 100.00 USD. While I can see and have used the cheap blades I've had such good cuts and life with the carbide I won't go back. They seem to cut through most nails and fencing without much issue, the current blade has two pieces of carbide missing after thousands of lineal feet.

John


Where are you finding Woodmaster CT for less than a $1 US an inch or Trimaster for less than $1.40 an inch?

A local supplier, Honig Industrial in Toronto. I don't use the Trimaster so I don't know where you got $1.40 an from.

You discuss cut quality from other blades and I know the typical hobbiest can't get their head around a higher cost blade because of the perceived damage potential. I process a lot of wood through the bandsaw using carbide and everything gets checked with a quality metal detector and after cutting, cleaned up in the planer and/or 15" widebelt. I don't know any blade that gives finish quality cuts.

John

The $1 and $1.40 per inch came from being the lowest price I have been able to find in the US from an industrial supply house.  I have been able to find them a little cheaper (in areas where they supply either lots of sawmills the WM CT will be cheap or areas that have a lot of industry that cuts very hard steels and titanium where the Trimaster is cheap but shipping from the small supply houses often more than kills the savings.

I run many different blades on my different saws, I usually have a different blade on each of my 6 bandsaws as they are set up for different functions.  As I said I do rough milling with carbon or sometimes bi-metal blades for really dense or high silica woods but have stripped enough teeth of carbide blades hitting rocks and all manner of debris to save the carbide blades now. 

As for surface prep I usually cut veneer at 1/32" and on my power fed saws I get glue up ready finish with a RK or Trimaster up to about 18" above that none of my saws can provide the beam strength to keep the amplitude of the blade harmonics low enough for glue ready but it requires me to cut slow (3fpm). The RK and Trimaster will leave a better finish than the WM CT due to the variable pitch and higher TPI if it is power fed I can just glue it up then finish the surface with a trip through the WB or if it is wider than 36" through the drum sander then some hand scraping and it is done.  If I don't power feed the hesitation marks will be worse than the blade finish. 

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 704
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 07:09 PM »
Touch wood, I haven't hit any stones. Must be interesting keeping that many bandsaws cutting, how many people do you have cutting for you? I can see why you would want stay away from carbide. When cutting for veneer which isn't often I go for between a 1/16" and an 1/8" but usually buy it. As far as price, its good to see at least one thing we Canadians don't get hosed on coming from the US. We really get hosed by Festool. LOL

John

Offline patriot

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    • Wood Working By Design
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 10:29 PM »
@Huxleywood
@kcufstoidi

Just reading all that you guys are commenting on tells me I have a ton to learn about larger bandsaw blades.  That said, I'm picking up some great advice from both of you.

I appreciate all that both of you have posted.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 121
Re: Bandsaw blade issues with 16-inch bandsaw wheels question
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 06:07 AM »
Touch wood, I haven't hit any stones. Must be interesting keeping that many bandsaws cutting, how many people do you have cutting for you? I can see why you would want stay away from carbide. When cutting for veneer which isn't often I go for between a 1/16" and an 1/8" but usually buy it. As far as price, its good to see at least one thing we Canadians don't get hosed on coming from the US. We really get hosed by Festool. LOL

John

I am primarily a hobby shop but I do take in some bandsaw work for local studio furniture makers who don't have the equipment or time to do some work efficiently.  The reclaimed wood furniture craze has found me resawing a lot of nasty stuff lately and I just did the rough cutting for 20 sculpted rockers for a hipster that sees himself as the second coming of Sam Maloof but doesn't own a bandsaw????  I might be what one would call a bandsaw collector (my wife would say a hoarder).  I have just had a life long fascination with them which has spurred me to play with them a lot and try to find the limits of what is possible.  I find many treat them as a secondary machine in the shop and often never get even 50% of the use out of that they could. 

As for the price of blades I am sure there are better sources in the US, I just haven't found them.  While e have a lot of metal cutting locally there isn't much wood cutting so industrial supply houses don't carry much woodcutting blade stock so it is priced high.  They don't cut much hard alloy metals here either so crossover blades like the Trimaster are non-existent.  I have gotten leads on shops that sell at excellent prices but they aren't set up for mail order and the ones that will charge a premium for the shipping and handling.  Be glad you have a good local source for higher end blades. 

Also, understand I would probably use my carbide blades much more if I only had 1 or 2 saws but the only way I can do the mental gymnastics to justify owning all the saws I do is to use different blade/saw combinations for different work...