Author Topic: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?  (Read 1956 times)

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Offline darth2

  • Posts: 19
Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« on: May 28, 2018, 01:33 PM »
I have a Bosch impact and non-hammer compact drill (IDH and DDI) that I bought less than three years ago and I feel that the batteries (2.0Ah) are discharging really fast and not holding charge in an unused state.  I bought a pair of batteries a year later to supplement the kit and they don’t seem much better at a year younger.  Anyone have similar problems or hear similar stories?  I’d consider switching to Festool drills if the batteries and quality is there, or any other brand that works better if there are suggestions out there. Seems like DeWalt has close to 200 tools running on batteries now.

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Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 02:35 PM »
I don't know what your comparison material is. Batteries don't last forever, even if they're lithium-ion based. I think they're supposed to last roughly 300 charge cycles before degrading significantly but that info may be outdated. Have you used them a lot?

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 03:15 PM »
Yea they definitely should be lasting A LOT longer than that. I have several 18V LiIon batteries that are almost 10 years old and still last forever!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline LooseSox

  • Posts: 112
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 10:41 PM »
Lithium batteries should not be left charged for extended periods in storage. This WILL significantly shorten their life expectancy. If you're a professional and using them daily then a few days to a week between charging and use won't hurt them much. If you're a diy'er and leaving them charged for weeks before use, especially in temperature extremes (hot or cold) then they will have a shorter life span than they otherwise would.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 11:40 PM »
If you registered your tools when you bought them, Bosch's batteries are guaranteed for three years, otherwise I believe they are covered for 1 or 2 years only.  Not sure.

Call them.  1 877 BOSCH99

I have probably 20+ Bosch cordless drills and of course lots of their 12V and 18V batteries that I've been acquiring since abandoning Milwaukee in the last 5 years.  I've only ever had one 12V semi-crap out on me and they sent a new one just based on my verbal over the phone without needing to send the old battery back.  I kept the old one as what the problem was was with the contacts getting bent in some manner, meaning the battery would work in some drills, and not others. 

Bosch is pretty good with customer service imo.  All their reps are answering phones in US call centers in my experience.  I register all my Bosch tools which I have many beyond just the aforementioned drills.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 139
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 12:40 AM »
If you're slamming batteries hot from a tool on a charger that can mess them up.  The denser the pack, the less heat-sinking the cells on the inside get.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 796
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 01:37 AM »
If you're slamming batteries hot from a tool on a charger that can mess them up.  The denser the pack, the less heat-sinking the cells on the inside get.
I guess that problem is what the festool airstream batteries are made for...

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 03:19 AM »
If you're slamming batteries hot from a tool on a charger that can mess them up.  The denser the pack, the less heat-sinking the cells on the inside get.
I guess that problem is what the festool airstream batteries are made for...

Don't know how those Festool batteries work, but the new Bosch Core 6.0 Batteries from Bosch are apparently the cutting edge in tool batteries right now.  They are really a step up from their previous 4.0 batteries and in fact add extra 'Ooomph' to the power of the tool itself.  I doubted those initial claims, but once I got some and tested them, they do in fact do that.  I've got 3 of them so far and am duly impressed by them.  No larger or heavier than the 4.0 batteries with a noticeable amount of more power on the tool and run time as well.

The older 2.0 batteries the OP is having issues with are frankly pretty old tech.  I have some of those, some with built-in battery charge indicators and others without.  Of course the ones with battery charge indicators are newer ones, but if I'm not mistaken, the 2.0 have been phased out entirely for some time now although you will still find some old stock being sold with them in kits.  I still use mine for when I want to lighten the overall weight of a tool being used because of weight alone for specific tasks where weight can be a factor, otherwise I plunk a 4.0 90+% of the time or the newer Core 6.0 batteries.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 03:28 AM »
If you're slamming batteries hot from a tool on a charger that can mess them up.  The denser the pack, the less heat-sinking the cells on the inside get.

Depends which brand.  Some chargers that have cooling fans in fact will fan cool the battery before starting a recharge just for this known reason.  I just got into the Makita platform also and I was just told this by one of their techs on the phone. 

It also applies to when a battery has finished charging in the bay and the electronics and such are still hot.  If the green light is on, and the fan is still blowing, it is because it is doing so to cool the electronics.  Makes sense, and I like that.  They just didn't have anything about why it was doing this in the charger's owners manual, so I ended up calling and found this out.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 193
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 07:21 AM »
I don't know what your comparison material is. Batteries don't last forever, even if they're lithium-ion based. I think they're supposed to last roughly 300 charge cycles before degrading significantly but that info may be outdated. Have you used them a lot?

I have DeWalt 20V Li-Ion batteries that I bought as part of a drill driver kit in 2011 that have been used hard and still hold a charge about as well as when new.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3291
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 11:01 AM »
Lithium batteries should not be left charged for extended periods in storage. This WILL significantly shorten their life expectancy. If you're a professional and using them daily then a few days to a week between charging and use won't hurt them much. If you're a diy'er and leaving them charged for weeks before use, especially in temperature extremes (hot or cold) then they will have a shorter life span than they otherwise would.

This is confusing to me...If I understand correctly Li batteries should be left UNCHARGED ?  I’m in the habit of re-charging when I know the battery is depleted.

I have so many batteries that pack might go a long time before being used again and that’s bad for the battery?

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 444
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 04:01 PM »
Lithium batteries should not be left charged for extended periods in storage. This WILL significantly shorten their life expectancy. If you're a professional and using them daily then a few days to a week between charging and use won't hurt them much. If you're a diy'er and leaving them charged for weeks before use, especially in temperature extremes (hot or cold) then they will have a shorter life span than they otherwise would.

This is confusing to me...If I understand correctly Li batteries should be left UNCHARGED ?  I’m in the habit of re-charging when I know the battery is depleted.

I have so many batteries that pack might go a long time before being used again and that’s bad for the battery?

Personally I think kind of warning is only an issue in extreme cases.

I have two Festool drills that each have a compact and larger battery kept with them. The drill that lives in the workshop almost never see's the larger battery get used, because I use corded tools in the shop. It's only used if the compact battery is charging as I MUCH prefer the drills with the compact batteries.

But, after 3 years or so of barely getting used the battery is fine. If I throw it in the HKC55 it performs with no noticeable difference to any of my other batteries given the AmpHour rating.. . Just my experience.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2018, 05:02 PM »
It's also worth noting that the Bosch 12V 2.0Ah batteries are still current, though 2.5 is phasing in. So if it's affected by generational tech that might be a difference. I didn't see the OP specify a platform and I only own their 12V stuff.

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 139
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2018, 05:42 PM »
Good to know that about the Makita platform.  I was sent one of the cordless routers to test for review purposes and I wondered what the fan in the charger was about.   Certainly a cordless router is the sort of tool that will heat up batteries.

Offline darth2

  • Posts: 19
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 10:49 PM »
The batteries I was talking about are the 18V 2.0 Ah batteries with the LED charge state indicators.  They were the latest tech battery at the time which for one pair would have been three years ago this April, two years ago for another pair.  I'm a contractor so I use them regularly and don't leave them on the charger unless they are charging on site.  They may not all get used in a working week depending on the scope of work but they haven't been left for weeks at a time unused except in the dead of winter when there's less going on.
My impression is that one pair seems to be dying faster than the others and I cant be sure they aren't the newer batteries so my question really is whether the BOSCH batteries are good quality/tech in general or if there is a better brand out there if I were to consider switching brands?  There seem to be a lot of companies like Milwaukee, Makita and DeWalt that have literally hundreds of tool choices for the platform.  Of course, there's the Festool platform from which I have two other battery tools so switching to their drills or one of them wouldn't be adopting another battery line for just one tool.
A really general question would be 'Are the Festool batteries good quality and worth the hype?' Asking as a recent Festool battery user and not as someone with a lot of time elapsed to have much to measure by.
I'll look into the warranty through BOSCH.  I bought the set at JLC Live and ordered a second pair on Amazon so no registration as far as I remember but still have receipts.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2018, 02:28 AM »
I'm not sure about 18V but for 12V Milwaukee uses the exact same batteries as Bosch. You can interchange them with a slight casing modification. Same for Dremel. Something similar may be true for other brands - a different brand does not mean a different battery or battery tech.

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 968
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2018, 04:59 AM »
I have 10 Bosch 2 AR, 18v batteries. They have never had long run times. I would go through several a day. I seldom use them any more. I went with 4 AR off brand batteries. One of those will last all day if it starts out freshly charged. 

I also have several Festool 4 & 5 AH 18V batteries. They will also last all day if I start out with a freshly charged one.
I do not have any of the lower AH 18v Festool  batteries.

As for Festool 18V batteries being better than Bosch. The only thing I can see that is better about the Festool batteries is the warranty registration process. I have never had a problem registering a Festool tool online. On the other hand, I have never been able to register a Bosch tool on line. With Bosch, I always get a error message stating that the tool is to old, so I need to call Bosch to register the tool. I only called Bosch once to register a tool. I was on the phone over 20 minutes. It is not worth it. So for me, Bosch tools only have a 1 year warranty. 

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 588
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2018, 07:46 AM »
Hi,

since you're looking for a general answer: Bosch batteries are known to last, not going to use the term "best", but if there's one thing; you rarely see people complaining about in regards to Bosch, it's their batteries. I know quite a couple of people running their jobs entirely on Bosch systems and rely on them. Batteries have never been a concern.

2 Ah batteries can't be compared to 4 Ah batteries, they're differently built.

Then 2 Ah batteries (using 18650 cells) are expressly for "light duty" - small footprint, less weight: over head screw driving, light drilling applications ... Bosch labels them light duty for a reason.

My personal opinion: After three years of constant use they should have earned enough money for you to buy a new set. If you need/want to work without re-charging or changing batteries, get the higher Ah Bosch batteries, they will not let you down.

They have entirely "new" batteries: Core (6.3Ah) and ProCore (7 Ah) using 20700 cells - these are spectacular, especially when used with demanding tools like angle grinders, recipro saw, circular saws ...

I'm pretty sure if you got a Core 6.3 Ah or ProCore (7 Ah) battery, you'll have a great experience and they will last more than a day in a drill.

Then however there are even newer ProCore batteries from Bosch (using 21700 cells) 4Ah, single layer (battery size/cell placement); 8 Ah double layer and there will be a 12Ah triple layer.

Don't worry about the name, they're all Bosch 18V batteries and compatible to older tools.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 11:10 AM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline darth2

  • Posts: 19
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2018, 10:53 AM »
Thanks, Oliver.  I appreciate the insight.  I was always under the impression the BOSCH tools and batteries were good quality which is why I'm surprised these batteries are showing the signs of age that they are.  My only reason for not having bigger batteries to date has been the form factor and weight.  Carrying a drill up a ladder on a belt is great with a 2.0Ah battery but if the higher Ah batteries are getting smaller than they were I guess it begs a look.  I suppose it makes sense to just look for a BOSCH drill that is equivalent to the Festool PDC drill and just stick with my BOSCH setup for those tools as it seems like the batteries aren't a problem under normal circumstances.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 588
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2018, 11:39 AM »
Hi,

totally understand that, there needs to be a good reason for adding extra weight.

Not sure if you know, but I'm kinda an advocate for the PDC. I love that machine.  [eek] [scared] [big grin]

Depending on what and which manufacturer you're looking for/at in a drill/driver, you will have a hard time finding any real substitute/equivalent among competitors for the PDC.

If looking at Bosch, they don't have any cordless drill/driver that will go as high as 3800rpm. If that's not your concern you can get one with up to 2000 rpm.

Looking at Fein or Metabo they currently offer drill/drivers up to 3800rpm, but that would mean investing in a new battery platform - probably as with the PDC for you?

The Fein could be interesting if you're also in the market for one of their 18V multitools.

Personally, and I can't say that often enough I simply love the PDC, maybe the best machine I ever bought. At least that's how I feel about it - but I also have all the Centrotec accessories/consumables for it - which enormously adds to my feelings for it and how pleased I am with it. ;)

Speaking about Bosch, I have to admit I really have a hard time finding the right tools on the North American website, totally different names/descriptions ... But look for a brushless drill/driver with metal chuck. Probably along the lines of this one: 18 V EC Brushless Brute Tough™ 1/2 In. Drill/Driver Kit, there should be a variant offering an additional percussion/hammer mode. But there are also others that a quite interesting - and you should definitely ask/look for the newer batteries.

I hope someone how knows more about Bosch's NA line up chimes in and can point you in the right direction.

Kind regards,
Oliver



Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline darth2

  • Posts: 19
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2018, 12:37 PM »
All those BOSCH thoughts track with my experience and since I have Festool battery tools I figured it wouldn't be a new platform for me to have one of their drills.  I've not used a PDC but the 3800 RPM speed was a big benefit in my mind as neither of my BOSCH drills have really high RPMS.  I am relegated to my corded BOSCH for that and having a strong hammer drill for OCCASIONAL use in a battery platform is a need for me. 

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 588
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Bosch LiIon batteries failing?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2018, 01:26 PM »
So you have the batteries, then by all means get the PDC. It's awesome! And once you drilled small diameter holes with 3800rpm - you will never want something different. Definitely get the CE-Stone drill bits, you'll be amazed how smooth they go into brick/masonry at 3800rpm without any percussion/hammering. Can't recommend these enough.

I have a project coming up on Friday and over the weekend, I will be up on some mobile scaffolding and I can't wait to use my PDC for the tasks ahead. Will also be using my CXS as I will be driving some screws with not much clearance above so the angle attachment it is.

Can't wait for Friday. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver