Author Topic: Choice of Triangles  (Read 1394 times)

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Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 579
Choice of Triangles
« on: September 27, 2017, 04:01 PM »
I've been kind of promising myself an 18" triangle, but I've been waiting for Woodpeckers to do their OTT triangle to make a choice between TSO and Woodpeckers.

Here are my current thoughts on the available triangles:
*  All are advertised to have .001" accuracy.
*  Lifetime Replacement for Woodpeckers, did not see a comment on the TSO site regarding lifetime replacement.
*  Dual scales - TSO has both metric and imperial scales on one triangle, Woodpeckers has one or the other.
*  MFT compatibility - TSO has 20mm holes and 96mm spacing to work with MFT tables, Woodpeckers does not.
*  TSO MTR can handle arbitrary angles, TSO PTR and Woodpeckers are geared to 90 and 45 degree angles.
*  Cost: Woodpeckers ~$200, TSO PTR ~$200, TSO MTR $250, TSO MTR kit $380-$400.

The Woodpeckers triangle vs the TSO PTR are at rough parity, but I'd give the TSO triangle a slight edge based on the dual scales and the MFT compatibility.  I have to admit that I'm tempted by the TSO MTR - perhaps just getting the basic triangle to start with and adding the kit later.  Seems like that would give me any angle of cut without using the MFT protractor.

So here are some questions for people who have used them:
*  What am I missing that should be part of deciding which triangle?
*  Do people who have the MTR find that it is actually useful to be able to set arbitrary angles?
*  Do people who have the MTR kit find the clamping angles useful?


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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5259
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2017, 04:35 PM »
Full disclosure----I test TSO products.

That said I'm going to ask @SRSemenza and @Peter Halle for a little guidance on whether I can/should respond.

Tom

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 579
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 06:08 PM »
Harvey,

After reading your thread about iphone storage or lack thereof, my suggestion is get a new phone with more storage. Will be far more useful than a metal triangle. Which will you use every single day? That's a rhetorical question, of course the phone.

Touche!  Unfortunately more memory wouldn't help.  It's more a matter of switching my App mix depending on factors like what I'm doing, which grandchildren I am visiting, and so on.  What I could do would be to buy all of the grandchildren iPhones, but my kids would kill me :), and I'd use up my tool budget for the next five years.  You are tempting me to whinge some more, but apparently I've used up my quota for the year.

Nice creative association between posts, by the way.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 09:54 AM by HarveyWildes »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2017, 08:39 PM »
Full disclosure----I test TSO products.

That said I'm going to ask @SRSemenza and @Peter Halle for a little guidance on whether I can/should respond.

Tom


You disclosed it  ..... your good to go.

Seth

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2158
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 08:48 PM »
Harvey -

I have the TSO MTR, along with several Woodpecker measuring tools.  All are made to a similar level of accuracy.  I like some of the new features they introduced in the TSO MTR.  Full disclosure, I had input like Tom with TSO on additions to the triangle to add even more flexibility to it.

As for cutting angles, Tom did a video about angles.  But attached is an example of a door transom to give you an idea of what you can do with the adjustability.

269404-0

One other feature that I like on the TSO MTR that is not talked about much is the aluminum angle attachments.  They bring utility to the square in a couple of ways.

1 - as a much more easily clamped right-angle gig for cabinet assembly.  See the photo for an example.  A couple of spring clamps and you have a really accurate assembly jig.  And it sits without the likelihood of falling as I've had happen with my large Woodpecker 26" square as well as a 12" triangle from them.

269406-1

2 - I have yet to do it but am thinking about using those angles to attach a longer straightedge to one edge of the triangle.  Debating just getting a 4' piece of 1" aluminum square tube from Lowes and drilling it, or attaching my Story Stick Pro from Woodpecker via it's T-track.  This would give me a 4' long straight edge aligned to a square edge.  Useful for marking out full width 4x8 sheets of ply.  Also useful when you want to cut drywall but don't have a drywall square.

I like the flexibility the drilled holes around the square offer - both on the MFT but also for additional attachments.

Hope this helps -

neil
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 08:51 PM by neilc »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5259
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 09:25 PM »
Again, full disclosure---I test TSO products, the compensation for my time is I get to keep the prototypes.

I do not have the Woodpecker square, have never used one. I do have a number of TSO MTR squares in various stages of development.

My observations and thoughts;

I like the idea of imperial/metric on a single square.

I like that it can be tightened to the MFT.

I like the bolt on angles for case assembly.

I like the pointer for adjustment.

I would like to see a pitch scale on the hypotenuse, it's great for roof framing in most countries because they use degrees, we use pitch. This may be difficult because you would need 2 pitch scales, one for commons, one for hip/valley.

I have proposed another accessory to TSO for stair layout.

Unless the unit is defective from day one I can't see how it can come out of square.

As mentioned, I shot a couple of videos, I think 2nd part will play after this one.



Good luck with your decision.

Tom

Offline ThePoplarShop

  • Posts: 40
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 06:31 PM »
Before I start.  Let me state that TSO has sent me the MTR-18, PTR-18 and Dog Rail Combo Pack to demo.

I have a 12" (300mm) Woodpecker triangle.  Here's a little comparison pic.   Yeah, I know.  TSO is 18" and WP is 12".  But look at the TSO triangle.   The 20mm holes allows you to attach it to the MFT table.   You are Festool guys, right ?  Most of you have a MFT or have made your own MFT tops.   Also.  Both the TSO and WP triangles have a removable foot.    The WP requires 6 screws on the 12".
TSO 18" triangle takes 3 screws.  So it's a little quicker to add/remove the foot.  Every now and then I need to tighten the screws on the WP triangle.   I've yet to need to tighten the screws on the TSO triangle. 



 You can clamp the PTR-18 to your work piece to help create perfect 90* joints.



Like I said.  You can attach the TSO PTR-18 using TSO bench dogs.   In the pictures I'm using the TSO Dog Rail Combo pack to hold the guide rail in place and the two dogs that come with the MTR-18 set.     





Please note that in the pictures above I'm using a Festool MFT800.  The smallest MFT.  You'll have a larger cross cut capacity with the MFT/3 tables.   But the pictures will help you see just one use you could get from the TSO PRT-18.
If you cut a lot of angles then you should look into the TSO MTR-18 set.  That bad boy is loaded with possibilities. 

I also own a lot of Woodpecker measuring tools.  Everyone raves how great Woodpecker tools are.   TSO tools are top of the line.
You get what you pay for. 

TSO triangles are available year round.   You don't need to wait for an announcement.  You don't need to wait for them to be produced. When you want it, you order it.

And if anyone from @TSO Products  reads this.   I hope at some point in the future you will consider offering smaller squares.
The TSO triangles are LARGE.  Having smaller triangles or squares would be awesome.   It would be great to see more competition in the measuring tools.  Tools that would be available year round. 

Eric

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 07:28 PM »
Tom, I am glad that Seth responded.

Disclaimer.  I was involved with their triangle project before I believe any other members here.  A wonderful dinner meeting brought in several other members here to help make the project what it is today.

I have been sent products in various steps of production to evaluate and comment on but was not by MY request a member of the beta test program that occurred in development of the triangle.  I wanted to see if those things Hans and Eric had discussed could develop naturally thru other's thoughts.

I do not have a triangle from TSO with all the bells and whistles that the offered project has.  My lessor model resides safely in its triangular box as a reminder that really cool things can happen when a manufacturer finds people on the internet, investigates, inquires, and then moves ahead.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 07:39 PM »
(Attachment Link)
This setup makes no sense to me. Isnt the MFT top supposed to be perfectly square? And since the parf dogs used in the holes square up the work piece to the MFT holes why would the triangle be needed?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5259
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 08:23 PM »
(Attachment Link)
This setup makes no sense to me. Isnt the MFT top supposed to be perfectly square? And since the parf dogs used in the holes square up the work piece to the MFT holes why would the triangle be needed?

I believe he's showing the square as a fence and how it can be attached to the MFT.

Maybe if he used the MTR and set it to 22.5ยบ to act as the fence it would have helped explain the benefits.

Tom

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Choice of Triangles
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 10:39 PM »
I've been kind of promising myself an 18" triangle, but I've been waiting for Woodpeckers to do their OTT triangle to make a choice between TSO and Woodpeckers.

Here are my current thoughts on the available triangles:
*  All are advertised to have .001" accuracy.
*  Lifetime Replacement for Woodpeckers, did not see a comment on the TSO site regarding lifetime replacement.
*  Dual scales - TSO has both metric and imperial scales on one triangle, Woodpeckers has one or the other.
*  MFT compatibility - TSO has 20mm holes and 96mm spacing to work with MFT tables, Woodpeckers does not.
*  TSO MTR can handle arbitrary angles, TSO PTR and Woodpeckers are geared to 90 and 45 degree angles.
*  Cost: Woodpeckers ~$200, TSO PTR ~$200, TSO MTR $250, TSO MTR kit $380-$400.

The Woodpeckers triangle vs the TSO PTR are at rough parity, but I'd give the TSO triangle a slight edge based on the dual scales and the MFT compatibility.  I have to admit that I'm tempted by the TSO MTR - perhaps just getting the basic triangle to start with and adding the kit later.  Seems like that would give me any angle of cut without using the MFT protractor.

So here are some questions for people who have used them:
*  What am I missing that should be part of deciding which triangle?
*  Do people who have the MTR find that it is actually useful to be able to set arbitrary angles?
*  Do people who have the MTR kit find the clamping angles useful?

@HarveyWildes - good move on your part to ask this experienced group of FOG members to hear what they say BEFORE you decide what's right for you.
Some of the posts reveal that our Triangles were not just dreamed up by TSO. They're the result of consultation with a dedicated group of BETA testers drawn from this forum and today's product reflect that input from advanced DIY woodworkers as well as working Pros. And the process of refinement continues past the original product launch. After the launch it was pointed out to us by other Pro's  that we need to have tapped holes in BOTH 18" edges of the both Triangles - BECAUSE the foot needs to be on different edges depending whether you use the metric or Imperial scale side.  So we offered to update all the tools customers had received by that point and add the additional tapped holes (at our expense including shipping both ways).

A similar discovery occurred concerning the rabbeted slot for the M6 T-Bolt securing the Index Pointer. After initial shipments were made we machined a second rabbet on the opposite side at no cost for all customers who asked for this update.

Accuracy: the TSO Triangles are guaranteed accurate to within .001" over 18" - not just over 12 inches. That said, both our tools and the "red ones" will surely meet all your woodworking accuracy needs.
Check that off as a tie on the score.

Warranty: thanks to your post we discover that we forgot to add our LIFETIME WARRANTY statement to the Triangles - duuhhh  [embarassed] - while it sits conspicuously on our web page with the GRS-16 Guide Rail Squares. So we'll fix that omission like we fixed many other glitches on the our website - thanks to Foggers like you pointing them out.
Check that as a tie on the score.

The difference boils down to the added features and the flexibility in use they allow you now and in the future - especially the MTR-18. If you can't quite make up your mind: we offer a money back guarantee - no questions asked even months down the road.

Oh - and I forgot to point out about our detachable Foot: attachment/removal requires only three screws. But if you look closely you'll see three closely spaced M4 tapped holes in the Foot in addition to the clearance holes for mounting. Guess what? - they're where you "park" the removed M4 screws so you know where to find them when you put the foot back on. Yeah, it's the little things and life is short.

thanks to all of you participants who help make this a fun bunch to work with!
Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions