Festool Owners Group

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS => Other Tools & Accessories => Topic started by: mickmick on February 09, 2019, 09:30 AM

Title: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: mickmick on February 09, 2019, 09:30 AM
I'm mainly doing inside finish/trim work, kitchens, flooring, built-in wardrobes.
I had a 18 gauge gas nailer before and it was a total PITA - gas that would off really quickly, not warm enough blah blah. I got rid.
I am now in the market for another.
I have two questions that keep me going round:
-Should I stick to the 18 gauge or is 23 gauge ok for what I do? Will it hold skirting while liquid nail takes hold? Will it hold 18mm painted mdf trim on the side of a wardrobe? I know you can get both but...
-Should I go back to compressor air guns or try the new 18v all electric nailers? I see Makita have a new one Makita DPT353Z. Also Dewalt. Anyone using them?

I can't really afford 2 x electric nailers this month. I could buy the compressor and a couple of nailers though. Still if I could get by with a 23 gauge and it was reliable, that would be the dream.

Am I dreaming?
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Tom Gensmer on February 09, 2019, 09:54 AM
For trim carpentry I carry a 15 gauge, 18 gauge brad, 23 gauge, and a 18 gauge stapler.

A 23 gauge is a fabulous tool, but in my opinion it's more of a complement than a substitute for a 18 gauge. I typically use the 23 gauge when fastening directly to hardwoods, for instance applying moulding to cabinetry.

I've still never brought myself to buy a cordless trim nailer, primarily because I prefer to pick the best tool for a particular fastener size. I either carry a Makita AC001 (https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/AC001) or my Max AKHL1260 (https://www.maxusacorp.com/nailers_compressors/products/akhl1260e/) compressor, a Flexzilla hose, and have switched most of my air couplers to the Prevost safety couplers (https://www.amazon.com/Prevost-ISI061201-FNPT-Safety-Coupler/dp/B01MYNQ40K/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1ACLL4Q7CSF91&keywords=prevost+air+couplers&qid=1549724006&s=gateway&sprefix=Prevost+%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-6)
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: tjbnwi on February 09, 2019, 09:57 AM
I have;

23
21
18
15.

I don't use a 16.

Tom
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: tekaddictnyc on February 09, 2019, 10:37 AM
What size nailer is best for base and crown molding?
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: tjbnwi on February 09, 2019, 10:41 AM
What size nailer is best for base and crown molding?

Depends on the crown and where it's going. Cabinet crown I use the 21 to hold the crown to the cabinet, 23 to pin the corners. On a wall it would be the 18 or 15 depending on the length of brad/nail I need.

Baseboard 18 or 15.

Tom
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: SRSemenza on February 09, 2019, 10:46 AM
I'm mainly doing inside finish/trim work, kitchens, flooring, built-in wardrobes.
I had a 18 gauge gas nailer before and it was a total PITA - gas that would off really quickly, not warm enough blah blah. I got rid.
I am now in the market for another.
I have two questions that keep me going round:
-Should I stick to the 18 gauge or is 23 gauge ok for what I do? Will it hold skirting while liquid nail takes hold? Will it hold 18mm painted mdf trim on the side of a wardrobe? I know you can get both but...
-Should I go back to compressor air guns or try the new 18v all electric nailers? I see Makita have a new one Makita DPT353Z. Also Dewalt. Anyone using them?

I can't really afford 2 x electric nailers this month. I could buy the compressor and a couple of nailers though. Still if I could get by with a 23 gauge and it was reliable, that would be the dream.

Am I dreaming?


The 23ga is not going to be all purpose compared to the 18ga.  If you are getting one then get the 18ga. If you are really doing this type of work much then get 15ga, 18ga, 23ga (or another pinner) as you can afford them. Get the 18ga first.

EX- the 23ga will hold skirting while glue sets , BUT only if that skirting is flat and tight to the wall. It won't pull it tight if the piece has any bow or the wall isn't flat.

Seth
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: rst on February 09, 2019, 03:01 PM
You'll find that an 18ga will be your most used style nailer for finish work.  I've been using air equipment for 50 years now and have quite a collection.  I have older Senco industrial grade stuff, an 18ga headless pinner, and a FN-40 I used for years with ringshank nails to hang aluminum shadowform.... heavy anodized storefront T & G made in different styles by Kawneer and others.  I later converted that beast to shoot 15 ga brads, it is a beast and weighs a ton.  I also have a narrow head 18ga Senco stapler, also a beast.  The air guns I use now are Grex, 18 ga brad, 23ga pinner, 23 ga stapler and the 7/16" 18 ga stapler.  I bought a 15ga Milwaukee 18v angled nailer to use and it's great for quicky jobs.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: ktb153 on February 09, 2019, 09:59 PM
there's no one size fits all nailer but a 23ga is really limited to cabinet crown and small moldings. 18ga definitely has more uses, i have this dewalt for pneumatic and the precision tip thing makes it by far the best brad nailer I've ever used
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-18-Gauge-Pneumatic-Brad-Nailer-DWFP12233/205647692
I also have the dewalt 20v 18ga and 16ga and I'd say they're just as consistent driving nails as pneumatic. The convenience is great but the downside is they're bigger, heavier and much more expensive. They're good enough that I probably won't ever set up a compressor in a house for those size nails again but in the shop I'll always use pneumatic.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: demographic on February 10, 2019, 06:35 AM
Just to go against the flow I'm UK based and I hardly ever see finish nailguns other than 16 gauge.
I assume you are also UK based cos you used the word "skirting" instead of baseboard.

16 gauge is almost a standard over here, Dewalt do a nice all electric machine which fires angled nails and I have a Hitachi that fires straight nails that more building sites provide so I never have to supply nails onto the sites I work on.
If Dewalt did a straight nails version I would have bought that instead.
I'm not putting nails onto labour only jobs.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: RKA on February 10, 2019, 09:07 AM
I use 18 with the most frequency, 15/16 when I need the longer 2.5” nails.  And a 21 for the little odds and ends because it has a little more holding power than a 23 ga pin.  If there was one size I would choose for cordless, it would probably be the 18 for little punch list stuff.  But the extra size and weight of cordless usually draws me to the lighter air nailer if the air line is readily accessible.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Peter Halle on February 10, 2019, 09:22 AM
Personally I use 16,18, and 23.  I have pneumatics in all those sizes and have a Paslode gas angled for 16 also.  This is my second Paslode model.  I also had an earlier Dewalt cordless.  I went to the Dewalt after I dropped my first Paslode off a ladder.  I really loved the Dewalt until it got old under the collar and got grumpy.  It was heavier than the Paslode and bulkier.  I then went back to using pneumatics for a while but found I had too many jobs where I didn't want that compressor around for small jobs.  So I sprung for my latest Paslode 16.  !6 and 18 gauge get used the most.  23 for trim corners, hold in place while glue dries, and sometimes cabinet trim.

Wouldn't want to be without any of them.

Not one size fits all.

Peter
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: tjbnwi on February 10, 2019, 04:56 PM
For those who have pneumatics and don’t want to lug around a compressor, there is the option of CO2. JacPak is the one that comes to mind.

Tom
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: SRSemenza on February 10, 2019, 08:40 PM
For those who have pneumatics and don’t want to lug around a compressor, there is the option of CO2. JacPak is the one that comes to mind.

Tom

I have been using CO2 for a  long time. It works well for me. The JacPak is what I use to have but two of them went bad with very low usage. I have one left that is now a spare. I switched  to Interstate Pneumatics WRCO2 CO2 Regulator - Solid Aluminum Body 0-125 PSI. So far no problems. The Interstate is also   much  less bulky. 

   http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/nail-gun-pneumatic-systainer-updated/msg549135/#msg549135


Seth
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: mickmick on February 11, 2019, 04:37 AM
thanks for all your replies.
I am going to go with a Senco PC1010 and 18 and 23 air nailers.
I really wanted the convenience of the 18v systems but the price of them (£400 each with batteries/chargers) puts me off. Also quite wary, as went through the "new tech" of a Bostich and Paslode gas nailers, both of which were a PITO - getting gas that was fresh  ::)
I had been sharing a workshop and would borrow the other guys 23 pin when I needed it, and had my own 18 brad. But have just got rid of the gas nonsense, so was looking at options.
Seth - thanks for the info on the CO2. I looked at it last week and was very interested but I don't have a supplier close to me. I may look at it a bit later.
People seem happy with the Senco PC1010, so hopefully it will be an Ok compromise. The old compressor I used years back was a lump, and I'm too old to be carting it up Victorian terrace stairs nowadays, but the Senco PC1010 looks manageable.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: SRSemenza on February 11, 2019, 09:07 AM
I have the PC1010. It is a very handy size and easy to carry.

Seth
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: tjbnwi on February 11, 2019, 09:10 AM
For those who have pneumatics and don’t want to lug around a compressor, there is the option of CO2. JacPak is the one that comes to mind.

Tom

I have been using CO2 for a  long time. It works well for me. The JacPak is what I use to have but two of them went bad with very low usage. I have one left that is now a spare. I switched  to Interstate Pneumatics WRCO2 CO2 Regulator - Solid Aluminum Body 0-125 PSI. So far no problems. The Interstate is also   much  less bulky. 

   http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-and-tanos-systainers/nail-gun-pneumatic-systainer-updated/msg549135/#msg549135


Seth

Thanks for the info.

Tom
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: tjbnwi on February 11, 2019, 09:12 AM
I have a 1010 also, any air leaks and it won't fill. If you find long cycle times, check for leaks.

Tom
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: SRSemenza on February 11, 2019, 09:15 AM
I should also say on my 1010 , I haven't used it very much so no idea on durability , etc.

Seth
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Master Carpenter on February 11, 2019, 09:25 AM
I’m another 15, 18, 23, narrow crown stapler run off PC1010 user. I also have a cheapish porter cable battery power 18 but it’s only brought along for small job days. The 18 is the workhorse, the 15 handles heavy trim like window sills and hanging hollow core doors.  The 23 is for delicate trim and the stapler takes care of plywood subfloor, though I have a beefier compressor if I have a lot of subfloor to do.  My setup is pretty standard for trim guys around here.

I’ve been using Omer and Cadex and they seem to be descent guns. I found most of the cheaper popular brands weren’t reliable after a year of heavy use, they would start misfiring and jamming. I stay clear of Bostich, but that may be my bad luck with the brand.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Mario Turcot on February 11, 2019, 10:01 AM
I don't know much about the type of work you doing so I cannot comment on gauge size. About air vs 18v

Do you already use any 18v tools? If you don't just stick to air, if you do lookup for nailers reviews about the brand platform you use.
Personally I have two 18g nailers, Paslode air and Milwaukee M18. I don't use the paslode anymore because of the comp noise. The Milwaukee is effective but heavy and one thing I would like on it is a toggle switch to load it instead of holding an embossed thiny  switch ~3 seconds  [mad]
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: rst on February 11, 2019, 01:03 PM
I've been using a 1010 since they first came out.  Mine lives in a sys V, I take the front two feet off and drop it in.  I replaced the lid with the storage lid to keep my accessories, wind up my Flexell hose in on top of the compressor.  I remove it and reinstall the feet for use.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: mrB on February 11, 2019, 07:16 PM
Had my 1010 for a couple years now maybe. Manage to squeeze it into a sys IV with two hoses, an 18g gun, a blower nozzle and a few brads. It's a joy! And with the lid closed it's nearly silent and (with a few bits of foam to stop rattles).

Not had a load of use as I have a bigger one in the workshop. But it's been reliably brilliant every time I need it.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: JimH2 on February 11, 2019, 08:40 PM
I'm mainly doing inside finish/trim work, kitchens, flooring, built-in wardrobes.
I had a 18 gauge gas nailer before and it was a total PITA - gas that would off really quickly, not warm enough blah blah. I got rid.
I am now in the market for another.
I have two questions that keep me going round:
-Should I stick to the 18 gauge or is 23 gauge ok for what I do? Will it hold skirting while liquid nail takes hold? Will it hold 18mm painted mdf trim on the side of a wardrobe? I know you can get both but...
-Should I go back to compressor air guns or try the new 18v all electric nailers? I see Makita have a new one Makita DPT353Z. Also Dewalt. Anyone using them?

I can't really afford 2 x electric nailers this month. I could buy the compressor and a couple of nailers though. Still if I could get by with a 23 gauge and it was reliable, that would be the dream.

Am I dreaming?

A pinner could never substitute for an 18 gauge. I moved to 21 gauge and rarely ever use my pinner. I also carry a 15, 16, and 18. Selection depends on the needs. I've tried gas powered units, but have stuff with my compressor.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: bluestreak on February 11, 2019, 11:48 PM
Just to add to this, the cordless pinners (Makita) SUCK!  I had the Makita for a week and returned it.  It was almost impossible to figure out how to use it and not leave a dimple from the recoil.

I currently use the Dewalt 18ga 20vmax for most of my work.  It's heavy but the fast setup time is great for smaller jobs, repairs, and such.  As mentioned above with the recoil, it's difficult to find the sweet spot, especially on softer woods, but it is there.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: mickmick on February 13, 2019, 04:07 AM
I use Makita 10.8v drill and driver, so not currently hooked onto an 18v platform.
Picking up the PC1010 today.  [big grin]
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Job and Knock on February 13, 2019, 06:24 PM
Just to go against the flow I'm UK based and I hardly ever see finish nailguns other than 16 gauge.
I assume you are also UK based cos you used the word "skirting" instead of baseboard.

16 gauge is almost a standard over here, Dewalt do a nice all electric machine which fires angled nails and I have a Hitachi that fires straight nails that more building sites provide so I never have to supply nails onto the sites I work on.
If Dewalt did a straight nails version I would have bought that instead.
I'm not putting nails onto labour only jobs.
UK-based as well - on fit-out we do use 18 gauge on some hardwood tasks (e.g. glazing beads, or where a 16 gauh=[ge would be too noticeable). Softwood and MDF, painted are generally done in 16 gauge. I agree, though, that for construction work 16 gauge is far more useful. Beware the DW angled 16 gauge (DCN660) - they won't always sink pins longer than 50mm and they aren't wonderful on close-grained timbers like sapele, for which a gas gun is superior. Unlike you I don't have any issues getting angled nails out of my main contractor. I do interior fit-out and listeds, though, so maybe that's the difference. I have a DCN660 and a Rawl (Senco) 16 gauge as well as a Paslode 18 gauge, but I despise gas, so I'm hoping that the new Hitachi cordless nailers (which have a mini compressor built-in) will be better

Problem of using compressors on any regulated site is that you need to have your compressor receiver tested regularly and hoses inspected/tested every 3 months - an expensive pain
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Farming_Sawyer on March 02, 2019, 09:21 AM
Had a chance to us both an 16 and 18ga Milwaukee cordless this past week to trim some windows. Poplar trim. I'm not impressed. The are heavy, awkward, slow to fire, much larger than pneumatic counterparts and I couldn't get a constant set. So glad they aren't mine. I'll stick to compressor noise and the hassle of hoses.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: demographic on March 02, 2019, 02:26 PM
UK-based as well

With a username of Job and Knock I just assumed you were Cumbrian as its a well used phrase round these parts.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 02, 2019, 05:38 PM
What are those dots? Nails into dowels or filler?
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: RKA on March 02, 2019, 07:42 PM
Had a chance to us both an 16 and 18ga Milwaukee cordless this past week to trim some windows. Poplar trim. I'm not impressed. The are heavy, awkward, slow to fire, much larger than pneumatic counterparts and I couldn't get a constant set. So glad they aren't mine. I'll stick to compressor noise and the hassle of hoses.

Your first 4 observations are common trade offs with cordless.  Your last is a unique feature of the Milwaukee nailers. 
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: mickmick on March 03, 2019, 04:30 AM
Got the PC1010 in a sys4 with hose. Senco 18g and Makita 23g pinner. Did some flooring yesterday - get in and out was a dream (sys4 + sys2) and job went smooth. Glad I baulked at the new. Tried and true wins again.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: demographic on March 06, 2019, 01:35 PM
Got the PC1010 in a sys4 with hose. Senco 18g and Makita 23g pinner. Did some flooring yesterday - get in and out was a dream (sys4 + sys2) and job went smooth. Glad I baulked at the new. Tried and true wins again.

You say you were doing flooring, have you tried just using a portanailer and secret nailing through the tongues?
Thats what Ive used on every hardwood floor Ive nailed apart from the two I've glued onto concrete.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: mickmick on March 07, 2019, 05:16 AM
Got the PC1010 in a sys4 with hose. Senco 18g and Makita 23g pinner. Did some flooring yesterday - get in and out was a dream (sys4 + sys2) and job went smooth. Glad I baulked at the new. Tried and true wins again.

You say you were doing flooring, have you tried just using a portanailer and secret nailing through the tongues?
Thats what Ive used on every hardwood floor Ive nailed apart from the two I've glued onto concrete.
Thanks I'll check one out.
The flooring was engineered click together. I used the nail guns for the skirting and scotia.
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Farming_Sawyer on March 07, 2019, 12:24 PM
What are those dots? Nails into dowels or filler?
if your referring to the floor the nailers are sitting on, they are hand drive cut boat nails countersunk into wide cherry flooring. Customer is super happy, but it drove me nuts. Good thing the checks and splits fit into their rustic aesthetic.....
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 07, 2019, 03:41 PM
Thanks for nail info. Did you try a palm nailer?
Title: Re: Driving myself mad over nail guns.
Post by: JimmyFord on March 15, 2019, 07:02 PM
I'm mainly doing inside finish/trim work, kitchens, flooring, built-in wardrobes.
I had a 18 gauge gas nailer before and it was a total PITA - gas that would off really quickly, not warm enough blah blah. I got rid.
I am now in the market for another.
I have two questions that keep me going round:
-Should I stick to the 18 gauge or is 23 gauge ok for what I do? Will it hold skirting while liquid nail takes hold? Will it hold 18mm painted mdf trim on the side of a wardrobe? I know you can get both but...
-Should I go back to compressor air guns or try the new 18v all electric nailers? I see Makita have a new one Makita DPT353Z. Also Dewalt. Anyone using them?

I can't really afford 2 x electric nailers this month. I could buy the compressor and a couple of nailers though. Still if I could get by with a 23 gauge and it was reliable, that would be the dream.

Am I dreaming?

The hitachi cordless nailers are incredible, I have the 18, 16, and 15. I had the set of m18 Milwaukee nailers, but the brad nailer left gigantic holes in the workpiece which to me defeats the purpose of a brad nailer. And all the Milwaukee nailers have a bit too much recoil imo, especially if you are shooting nails all day.  I was on a search for a long time for a decent cordless nailer, and hitachi is SOLID! I had a ton of m18 tools and zero hitachi- the nailers were impressive enough to me that it was worth having the new battery platform just for the nailers. I still have the m18 15ga (outside the return window was the only reason) and it’s got power, but the recoil gets old. The only downside to the hitachi’s is the brad nailer pretty much can’t drive a 2” brad into solid oak, smaller brads are fine, but the 2” is always at least 1/16th proud, sometimes an inch proud. Oak to pine is fine. I never found pin nailers all that useful for trim, CA glue plus and activator gets it done quickly.