Author Topic: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System  (Read 5271 times)

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Online GoingMyWay

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Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« on: May 28, 2019, 04:52 PM »
I came across a post on a Facebook woodworking group that showed this new safety technology: https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html.  It's supposed to be available on the Kappa550 table saw in 2020 in time for the IWF show in Atlanta.

I don't know exactly how it works, but it sounds very promising especially because it's non destructive and doesn't even require replacement cartridges like the Bosch Reaxx.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 05:54 PM »
Looks promising! If such technology can be used on cabinet saws and smaller table saws, both SawStop (and Reaxx after the patents expire) will be in trouble.

Even more promising is if it can be adapted to other machines like the mitre saws, bandsaws etc., like this Australian product:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 05:58 PM by ChuckM »

Online GoingMyWay

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2019, 05:58 PM »
Felder indicated on their Facebook page that they would be offering it on the "full line of machines" but "it will take some time."
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2019, 06:08 PM »
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2019, 07:26 PM »
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

Discussion of price (and lowering) are absurd in this forum. It is highly unlikely that there will be competition between Felder and SawStop or even Bosch who moved their Reaxx into the top of their price list. Competition is good and other solutions for blade protection were inevitable, but my last concern is and will continue to be price. A race to the bottom is something I don't want when safety is involved. The more interesting improvements will be for other tools like Felder appears to be doing.

BTW the last thing on your mind is the cost of a replacement cartridge or blade when you still have you realize you still have your  finger(s). I know as my SawStop saved my thumb (and possibly more). Rushed cut at the end of the day. I had made it more than 20 years without a mistake on the table saw other than a kickback or two.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2019, 07:50 PM »
Price is one of the main reasons why many woodworkers today do not own a SawStop saw (despite it being the #1 selling cabinet saw these days in N.A.; by 2014, 50,000 SS were sold). We cannot discuss safety in isolation. It is not about racing to the bottom, but about SawStop or Reaxx (in due course) competing against a new, perhaps more powerful competitor.

I am not talking about competition between Felder (sliding saw manufacturer) and SawStop (cabinet and smaller saw manufacturer). Having learned their costly lesson, other table saw makers (presumably wiser now) would be more than willing to adopt Felder's innovation if it is technically feasible, and if Felder licenses the technology to them. The competition will be between SawStop and other table saw makers who are licensed to use the Felder's innovation.

Between replacing a cartridge/damaged blade (SawStop method), and a 15-second reset (Felder's, details unknown yet, presumably at no extra cost to the user per activation), a future cabinet saw buyer would prefer the latter, every other consideration being the same. This would be why SawStop will have to reduce its prices (profit margins accordingly) to compete. We are not talking about SawStop compromising its safety feature or sawing quality given a reduction in price.

Of course, if other table saw makers incorporated the Felder's technology in a poorly built saw, SawStop would have much less to worry about. But I don't anticipate that to be the case. I spent a lot on my SawStop not solely for its safety feature, but more for its sawing quality and repeatability.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 08:00 PM by ChuckM »

Offline BoulderAv

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2019, 05:51 AM »
Felder makes very nice tools and for a more boutique industrial brand their prices are not absurd. The real question with what Felder is doing is if that can they get into their Felder and Hammer lines in a timely manner. Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2019, 02:41 PM »
The system appears to be non-contact, i.e. reacts on approach before the blade is touched. This is an advantage over the current tech.

Online GoingMyWay

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2019, 02:55 PM »
I thought I read it might work on infrared (though now I can't find where I saw that)?
 
Since it sounds like it's non-destructive it doesn't seem like having a false trigger of the safety mechanism would be that bad.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2019, 03:16 PM »
When more information is released, we may find out whether the new technology can handle wet wood or metal without turning off the safety feature which is required under the SawStop system.

Offline promark747

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 03:16 PM »
I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2019, 03:18 PM »
I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

"BladeStop is available in two sensing methods:
1.   Upon sensing contact with the operator, the blade stops operating within 0.009 seconds. This can be a huge difference between having just a small skin cut or an amputated finger.
2.   The sensing system detects operator gloves moving at high speed in a zone directly upstream from the saw blade and triggers the BladeStop™ mechanism to stop the meat band saw blade."
https://www.scottautomation.com/products/bladestop/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 03:22 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 03:34 PM »
I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.
It "senses body electromagnetic field" which is vague way to put it. No glove is needed.

Offline RussellS

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 08:41 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Offline BoulderAv

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 11:05 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Getting down to the Felder level is more about making SawStop think about product devlopment and differentiation. I am guessing that most SawStops sold are far less expensive varieties like the contractor or professional where Felder does not even compete thus Hammer's more expensive units are less of a threat. The real profit is in the approachable luxury/industrial market not the low or super high end (see BMW, Apple, etc).

Offline blaszcsj

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2019, 11:32 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Are you saying that the hammer would be of more or less value with the sawstop feature? The hammer slider value is that it provides more utility than the cabinet saw and the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe. So the value proposition as stated is really over a difference of only 1K and I think the utility of a slider out weighs the added cost.
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Offline Bear77

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2019, 02:34 PM »
I talked to a felder sale rep. They say it only be  available for industrial unit.

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 02:46 PM »
the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe.
Moreover, it's not a real slider as it does not go right past the blade. It has decreased utility because one can't use it to rip and straight-line solid lumber. All those add-on sliders for cabinet saws are just over-sized miter gauges.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 02:57 PM by Svar »

Offline RussellS

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2019, 03:19 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Getting down to the Felder level is more about making SawStop think about product devlopment and differentiation. I am guessing that most SawStops sold are far less expensive varieties like the contractor or professional where Felder does not even compete thus Hammer's more expensive units are less of a threat. The real profit is in the approachable luxury/industrial market not the low or super high end (see BMW, Apple, etc).

Not sure what you are saying.  People buying Felder machines may not even know what a SawStop is.  They are in different worlds.  So Felder has their cheaper Hammer brand to compete against SawStop.  Those brands may attract the same customers.  Thus for Felder/Hammer to compete against SawStop using their blade safety mechanism, they must put the blade safety feature in the Hammer brand.  If the blade safety feature stays only in the Felder $10-15-20 thousand dollar machines, then it is not competing against SawStop.  Put the saw safety feature in the $5000 Hammer saws and it will be an effective feature for competing against SawStop.  Putting it in the Felder K700 $10,000 saw is not competing.  Putting it in the Hammer K3 $5500 may compete.  Or if Felder/Hammer want to start a third brand of cheap tools priced near SawStop and Jet and General, and include the saw blade safety feature.

Offline RussellS

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 03:31 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Are you saying that the hammer would be of more or less value with the sawstop feature? The hammer slider value is that it provides more utility than the cabinet saw and the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe. So the value proposition as stated is really over a difference of only 1K and I think the utility of a slider out weighs the added cost.

The Hammer would be MORE value with the blade safety.  And Felder would be MORE value with the blade safety.  And ALL saws would be MORE value with the blade safety.  I am FOR safety.  Safety adds value always.  I wholeheartedly agree the European slider on the Felder/Hammer/SCMI/Altendorf/Martin saws is far far far superior to any American style saws.  And if I had to make a choice, I'd choose the European slider over any SawStop safety feature.  BUT, if I could get BOTH the European slider AND the saw safety blade feature, I'd choose that one.  Thus if Felder gets the safety feature down to the Hammer price level, I will spit and p-ss on the SawStop as I run to buy one.  I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2019, 04:25 PM »

Snip.
 I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.

Most amateur woodworkers, especially in EU, don't have space for a sliding saw, money aside. If I put a siding saw in my shop, I would have to get rid of at least 50% of all other machines I have. So for people like me, the SawStop is the best table saw option available. Of course, many of us don't deal with sheet goods as much, and a sliding saw, given its price, can be an overkill.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 07:24 PM by ChuckM »

Offline RussellS

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2019, 10:17 PM »

Snip.
 I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.

Most amateur woodworkers, especially in EU, don't have space for a sliding saw, money aside. If I put a siding saw in my shop, I would have to get rid of at least 50% of all other machines I have. So for people like me, the SawStop is the best table saw option available. Of course, many of us don't deal with sheet goods as much, and a sliding saw, given its price, can be an overkill.

Hammer offers sliding table saws in lengths of 31", 48", 79", and 126".  The 31" is basically a big miter saw.  Not too useful I think.  But the 48" and 79" would work for almost all furniture built.  6.5 feet is pretty close to the biggest table top or door you are going to make.  You need 13-14 feet of clear space for the 79" slider.  I bet almost all small shops have that much space.  And everyone loves rolling mobile bases for their tools.  So just park all your tools in the 4-6.5 foot outfeed section of the slider and move them out for the rare occasions you need the full 6.5 foot slider.  You could build an entire kitchen cabinet set and never need more than 3 feet of slider.  6 foot total length.  The 48", (8 foot total) slider would be perfect.

Sliding saws are not only used for sheet goods.  I think they would be perfect for all solid wood cutting.  Miter cuts, cross cuts, AND straight line ripping boards.  In 5 seconds you would have a straight line cut on one edge of a board with a slider.  Much faster than a track saw can cut it.

The maximum slider you can have in your shop is equal to the maximum length of wood you can rip on your tablesaw.  If you can rip an 8 foot length of board, then you can have an 8 foot slider.  And need roughly 17 feet of space.  8' infeed, 10" blade, 8' outfeed.  If the maximum you can rip is only 48", then you can have a 4 foot slider.  And need roughly 9 feet of clear space.  4' infeed, 10" blade, 4' outfeed.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 10:38 PM by RussellS »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2019, 01:22 AM »
It looks like it's based on a vision system which is way more high tech and potentially more configurable, than the strictly capacitance based system of the Saw Stop.

It seems like Gass exited stage left at the appropriate moment. That's a relief...enough of that grifter.

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2019, 06:42 AM »
There are videos of it in action at Ligna 2019 on Felder USA's Facebook page, including one of their employees demonstrating with his own finger while his colleagues are drinking beer in the background!  [eek]

https://www.facebook.com/feldergroupusa/videos/857046994655619/

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2019, 07:13 AM »
The latest video on the Felder YouTube channel highlights some new stuff launched at the Ligna tradeshow. Among that the PCS. With an employee risking his fingers…

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Offline JimH2

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2019, 09:36 AM »
The "live finger" demonstration has to be the craziest thing I have ever seen. It looks awesome and is definitely a serious step ahead of the other vendors. This was of course inevitable because safety is paramount at businesses and that is Felder's primary market. A little extra money for the device will be recovered after the 1st save. At some point machines with safety devices will be in majority and insurance and workman's comp pricing will reflect it.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2019, 10:35 AM »
My neighbor got a new car that came with the latest safety features as "standard" offer, previously reserved for only the luxury models. With or without regulations, it is a matter of time that all future table saws will all come with "finger-saving" technology (contact or contact-less) or its derivatives.

Don't know if Dr. Gass picked the right time to enter the market with his innovation, but surely he seemed to have found the right time to exit!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6137
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2019, 11:27 AM »
The latest video on the Felder YouTube channel highlights some new stuff launched at the Ligna tradeshow. Among that the PCS. With an employee risking his fingers…



Wow...Felder's going all-in on the automation front. Some pretty interesting ideas.  [big grin]

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 816
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2019, 02:43 PM »
Meet Harry, he's Felder's main man for training their sales staff to extract the maximum amount of money from your wallet. I've had the pleasure of drinking beer with him, he a good guy IMHO. The old saying " he could sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo" should be on this mans calling card.
The innovations are interesting but currently way beyond the reach of most small shops and only for those others with extremely deep pockets. One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close as hotdog boy, funny how marketing changes, sort of like the wind. The only real benefit will come when it trickles down to the saws creating most of the injuries not the $30,000.00 to $50,000.00 saws.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6627
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2019, 05:32 PM »
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

To me the initial price is irrelevant really.

Reason I never would buy a sawstop was for two reasons.

One i dont like it when some one is trying make his/her product compulsory through law.

Secondly I never liked the idea that it can be triggered by not just your fingers but wet wood or metal objects which would cause damage to my brand new blade and cost of replacing sawstops cartridge and if not having a spare sharp blade to hand costing me a lost days work.

This would then cause me to deactivate the sawstop if i had doubts it being triggered or not which then defeats the point of sawstop.

This felder PCS system is the way forward now this is something ill be more than happy to have on my table saws infact rather than avoiding like i do with sawstop I will actually actively search for tools with such a device.



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