Author Topic: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?  (Read 2011 times)

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Offline antss

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Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« on: October 06, 2017, 08:14 PM »
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2130625347/goliath-cnc-an-autonomous-robotic-machine-tool-for

New portable CNC machine should certainly give Shaper O a run for their money.  No sticky tape, and no having to hold the thing. Which means you can go do something else while this one cuts.

Biggest drawback I see is no dust collection.

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Offline estley

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2017, 08:20 PM »
looks like a mix of shaper and the maslow, of the three this one looks like the better executed.


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Offline Svar

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2017, 08:23 PM »
No need for holding it is a big plus. I would question the rigidity of the setup, but it seems to work well if you don't need sub-millimeter precision.
You could attach a sander/polisher to it (going back to an older thread)  [big grin]
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 12:32 PM by Svar »

Offline Rollin22Petes

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2017, 08:26 PM »
Looks pretty cool but I wonder how good the drive wheels will do on slick surfaces especially without dust collection. All the debris will make for an uneven surface.

Online Kev

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2017, 09:55 PM »
Looks pretty cool but I wonder how good the drive wheels will do on slick surfaces especially without dust collection. All the debris will make for an uneven surface.

The design certainly needs to incorporate a blower at the very least!

Offline Cheese

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2017, 10:52 AM »
Interesting...it seems fine on wood products but I wonder about milling aluminum with all of those sharp aluminum chips that attach themselves and get stuck to everything.  [tongue]

I also wonder if clamping down the sheet stock will be problematic. If you need a vacuum table, well that's almost half the cost of a CNC.

Offline Timtool

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 11:09 AM »
I don't know about this one, they all focus on one hip advantage and hide all the new inconveniences their solution creates.

It's cool to see it doing a small cut in the middle of a giant panel, as cool as watching an SUV commercial with it driving through the desert or on a beach. That just doesn't happen in every day life.

In reality you want your CNC to get the most out of your material, work close to the edge and cut out parts close to each other.

Here if you don't want a huge waste line around the material then you need to build a large table around your material with wide edges level with the material. Every time, for every different element and every different thickness.
If you make several cuts next to each other, you will have grooves everywhere or even holes where certain parts have been removed, how will that interact with the wheels, not to mention the huge amount of dust. Or if you cut all the way through, the wheels could drag the parts and get them mangled by the cutter.

I wonder how you can even hold down small materials if you can't have any clamps stick out on top? Not to mention the giant, slit-free level surface you need to build around the material each time.

This seems to be only for cutting on complete sheets, with either huge loss or huge set up time.
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Offline bobfog

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2017, 11:15 AM »
Looks really good, much more innovative and forward thinking than the Shaper. In reference to working at the edge, you'd just have a run off area to support the wheels, like putting a bit of scrap under a guide rail for thin cuts.

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2017, 11:53 AM »
I don't know about this one, they all focus on one hip advantage and hide all the new inconveniences their solution creates.

It's cool to see it doing a small cut in the middle of a giant panel, as cool as watching an SUV commercial with it driving through the desert or on a beach. That just doesn't happen in every day life.

In reality you want your CNC to get the most out of your material, work close to the edge and cut out parts close to each other.

Here if you don't want a huge waste line around the material then you need to build a large table around your material with wide edges level with the material. Every time, for every different element and every different thickness.
If you make several cuts next to each other, you will have grooves everywhere or even holes where certain parts have been removed, how will that interact with the wheels, not to mention the huge amount of dust. Or if you cut all the way through, the wheels could drag the parts and get them mangled by the cutter.

I wonder how you can even hold down small materials if you can't have any clamps stick out on top? Not to mention the giant, slit-free level surface you need to build around the material each time.

This seems to be only for cutting on complete sheets, with either huge loss or huge set up time.

@Timtool ,  Scroll down the page for more videos,  the 4th video down shows that they've seemed to solve this problem around the edges of the work piece.

Offline Laminator

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2017, 11:55 AM »
Very interesting concept.  One thing for sure, it needs dust collection as its first improvement. For a small (garage) shop this could be a real asset for certain jobs.   It will make for some interesting reviews as to see if the pros outweigh the cons.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 01:27 PM »
@Timtool - that's what I was thinking, you expressed it better than I could have. It's a novel idea but I think the Shaper is more practical.

I dithered over the Shaper until the last minute and ordered one 9/30, last day for the 2nd batch. One reason I was hesitating is the risk of them failing to launch, which I judged is minimal given how long the worked on it before starting to take orders. I also figure that the first batch will have landed months before mine is ready and there is the option to cancel right up to shipping. Festool lending their reputation to it via supplying the spindles also gave me comfort.

I have backed 8-10 smaller Kickstarters over the years and perhaps 1-2 happened anywhere near on time and 2-3 never delivered, lost the $$ but <$100 each. It was a risk I knew going in but not one I will take for $2K.

I also think the Shaper is much more precise in terms of placing the cuts where you want them on the stock. Whacking something out of a sheet of plywood is one thing, locating finger joints on the end of a dimensioned board is another.

Still, all of this bodes well for the creation of a whole new category of tools for small shops/mobile work. I already have 3 CNC small machines and I believe the Shaper can replace them all. Anyone interested in an early version of the HandiBot at a great price?

RMW

I don't know about this one, they all focus on one hip advantage and hide all the new inconveniences their solution creates.

It's cool to see it doing a small cut in the middle of a giant panel, as cool as watching an SUV commercial with it driving through the desert or on a beach. That just doesn't happen in every day life.

In reality you want your CNC to get the most out of your material, work close to the edge and cut out parts close to each other.

Here if you don't want a huge waste line around the material then you need to build a large table around your material with wide edges level with the material. Every time, for every different element and every different thickness.
If you make several cuts next to each other, you will have grooves everywhere or even holes where certain parts have been removed, how will that interact with the wheels, not to mention the huge amount of dust. Or if you cut all the way through, the wheels could drag the parts and get them mangled by the cutter.

I wonder how you can even hold down small materials if you can't have any clamps stick out on top? Not to mention the giant, slit-free level surface you need to build around the material each time.

This seems to be only for cutting on complete sheets, with either huge loss or huge set up time.
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Offline bobfog

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 01:34 PM »
@Timtool - that's what I was thinking, you expressed it better than I could have. It's a novel idea but I think the Shaper is more practical.

I dithered over the Shaper until the last minute and ordered one 9/30, last day for the 2nd batch. One reason I was hesitating is the risk of them failing to launch, which I judged is minimal given how long the worked on it before starting to take orders. I also figure that the first batch will have landed months before mine is ready and there is the option to cancel right up to shipping. Festool lending their reputation to it via supplying the spindles also gave me comfort.

I have backed 8-10 smaller Kickstarters over the years and perhaps 1-2 happened anywhere near on time and 2-3 never delivered, lost the $$ but <$100 each. It was a risk I knew going in but not one I will take for $2K.

I also think the Shaper is much more precise in terms of placing the cuts where you want them on the stock. Whacking something out of a sheet of plywood is one thing, locating finger joints on the end of a dimensioned board is another.

Still, all of this bodes well for the creation of a whole new category of tools for small shops/mobile work. I already have 3 CNC small machines and I believe the Shaper can replace them all. Anyone interested in an early version of the HandiBot at a great price?

RMW

I don't know about this one, they all focus on one hip advantage and hide all the new inconveniences their solution creates.

It's cool to see it doing a small cut in the middle of a giant panel, as cool as watching an SUV commercial with it driving through the desert or on a beach. That just doesn't happen in every day life.

In reality you want your CNC to get the most out of your material, work close to the edge and cut out parts close to each other.

Here if you don't want a huge waste line around the material then you need to build a large table around your material with wide edges level with the material. Every time, for every different element and every different thickness.
If you make several cuts next to each other, you will have grooves everywhere or even holes where certain parts have been removed, how will that interact with the wheels, not to mention the huge amount of dust. Or if you cut all the way through, the wheels could drag the parts and get them mangled by the cutter.

I wonder how you can even hold down small materials if you can't have any clamps stick out on top? Not to mention the giant, slit-free level surface you need to build around the material each time.

This seems to be only for cutting on complete sheets, with either huge loss or huge set up time.

One thing you will never replace with the Shaper is the lack of contact time required compared to a traditional CNC machine. This new product combines the advantages of being self propelled and requiring minimal contact whilst still retaining the space saving elements. If you're using either professionally or a semi-serious hobby, not having to manually guide the tool is a huge time saver.

Offline Timtool

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2017, 04:19 AM »
@Jim Kirkpatrick I'm sort of corrected on that aspect, but not entirely since it still seems to have trouble with corners.
Though judging from my experience with my X-carve, 90% of the materials you work with are scraps that are just barely big enough to fit the needed part. That's the whole point of CNC for me, taking a piece out of the scrap bin or cut-off stack, and making something from it.

So I'd say that at least 90% of the jobs I do with my X-carve would be highly problematic on the Goliath, because the material is oddly shaped, has already missing parts, or has less then 1/4 inch waste line around the cut.
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 11:13 AM »
@Timtool - that's what I was thinking, you expressed it better than I could have. It's a novel idea but I think the Shaper is more practical.

I dithered over the Shaper until the last minute and ordered one 9/30, last day for the 2nd batch. One reason I was hesitating is the risk of them failing to launch, which I judged is minimal given how long the worked on it before starting to take orders. I also figure that the first batch will have landed months before mine is ready and there is the option to cancel right up to shipping. Festool lending their reputation to it via supplying the spindles also gave me comfort.

I have backed 8-10 smaller Kickstarters over the years and perhaps 1-2 happened anywhere near on time and 2-3 never delivered, lost the $$ but <$100 each. It was a risk I knew going in but not one I will take for $2K.

I also think the Shaper is much more precise in terms of placing the cuts where you want them on the stock. Whacking something out of a sheet of plywood is one thing, locating finger joints on the end of a dimensioned board is another.

Still, all of this bodes well for the creation of a whole new category of tools for small shops/mobile work. I already have 3 CNC small machines and I believe the Shaper can replace them all. Anyone interested in an early version of the HandiBot at a great price?

RMW

I don't know about this one, they all focus on one hip advantage and hide all the new inconveniences their solution creates.

It's cool to see it doing a small cut in the middle of a giant panel, as cool as watching an SUV commercial with it driving through the desert or on a beach. That just doesn't happen in every day life.

In reality you want your CNC to get the most out of your material, work close to the edge and cut out parts close to each other.

Here if you don't want a huge waste line around the material then you need to build a large table around your material with wide edges level with the material. Every time, for every different element and every different thickness.
If you make several cuts next to each other, you will have grooves everywhere or even holes where certain parts have been removed, how will that interact with the wheels, not to mention the huge amount of dust. Or if you cut all the way through, the wheels could drag the parts and get them mangled by the cutter.

I wonder how you can even hold down small materials if you can't have any clamps stick out on top? Not to mention the giant, slit-free level surface you need to build around the material each time.

This seems to be only for cutting on complete sheets, with either huge loss or huge set up time.

One thing you will never replace with the Shaper is the lack of contact time required compared to a traditional CNC machine. This new product combines the advantages of being self propelled and requiring minimal contact whilst still retaining the space saving elements. If you're using either professionally or a semi-serious hobby, not having to manually guide the tool is a huge time saver.

@bobfog - fair point. Not a major concern for me as I expect to use it for a lot of one-off small parts or operations like cutting finger joints or mortises in end/edge grain. Not trying to advocated for one over the other as everyone's use case will vary. 

One thing I really look forward to in the Shaper is not having to deal with CAM in the design itself. I am still a casual CAD/CAM user & end up fiddling a lot with designs and muffing some operations requiring re-cutting parts. I like the idea of working from a simple graphics file and having the tool figure out toolpaths and the onboard control of depth of cut. I can whack out simple outlines in Sketchup rather than having to delve into VCarve or Fusion. Load the file wirelessly, locate the design on the stock, select a cutter, select inside/outside profile, select depth of cut and go. All from the onboard controls which is what really excites me.   

I will almost certainly keep the SO3 and work on increasing my CAD/CAM skills. For repetitive runs of the same plywood part the set & forget aspect of that machine is a nice feature.

RMW
 
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2017, 12:18 PM »
When I saw the Shaper Origin video I was intrigued.  Not as intrigued as many but I have changed from from an early implementor or purchaser.  I saw the Shaper Origin a year later at this year's Connect event and had some time to talk to them and digest.  Now I have seen this video.

Before you read the rest of this post, I was given a copy of a CAD program by a contractor who was doing work for a company that I worked for back in the earliest 1990's.  He had deinstalled it from his computers and was using something different.  I ended up learning that software and bought my own copy and upgraded it until they got bought out and disappeared.  So I understand the essence of the programming.  I learned about ShowBot years ago.  If things had worked out differently I would have had a dedicated shop on my property and a CNC inside.  It didn't.  So I am not a CNC nay sayer.

When I see the comparisons between these two machines as well as what has come before I see a major obstacle that I would have to have time and real life experience provide the ramp to overcome:  dealing with workpiece resistance.

It is great to show routing with an eighth inch diameter bit where the amount to get chewed up is minimal.  The forces exerted when an obstacle is hit (physics - equal but opposite) are not the same when larger bits are used.  Real life is that larger bits will be used mainstream (quicker) and then in the promise of perfection can the tools compensate quickly enough to avoid those oops.

The Shaper has at least the friction of plate contact on the material.  It also has the hands on the tool with muscular resistance.  Goliath only has the weight of the tool on the bearing surfaces of the wheels.  That amounts to - if I read it right - about 22 lbs divided by 3 which means that if the wheels were pointed there would be 7 lbs per wheel on a tiny contact point.  But the wheels aren't pointed.

Interesting ideas on both fronts and I wish both of them success.  I got into Festool because of the track saw and its elimination of so many things that prevented cutting a straight line even with other aftermarket items.  There was the control of the saw in one direction.  There was the friction. 

I love innovation.  I am getting more skeptical on the whole crowd funding aspect because it is investing in a future product based on emotions.

Personally I will sit on my fence post and wait to see how this whole concept works out once once it goes beyond the company and their network of beta testers and influencers.

Happy Sunday!

Peter
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2017, 12:42 PM »
@Richard/RMW, what is SO3?

Offline Svar

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 12:44 PM »
Though judging from my experience with my X-carve, 90% of the materials you work with are scraps that are just barely big enough to fit the needed part. That's the whole point of CNC for me, taking a piece out of the scrap bin or cut-off stack, and making something from it.
So I'd say that at least 90% of the jobs I do with my X-carve would be highly problematic on the Goliath, because the material is oddly shaped, has already missing parts, or has less then 1/4 inch waste line around the cut.
Tim, it is not a competitor to X-carve, which is already inexpensive and compact. Neither it is a competitor to a 2×4 meter 5 ton machine. It's a niche product, just like any other. It's niche is sign making, prototyping plywood furniture, inlay, templates, etc. in a small shop, designer studio, or directly on work site.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 12:51 PM by Svar »

Offline Richard/RMW

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Offline ear3

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 12:53 PM »
Like Richard, I ended up ordering the Shaper Origin on the last day of September to lock in the discounted price.  It will be my first foray into CNC.  Initially, it will probably just be for my own use -- making templates mostly.  But over the past few years, I've had to pass on a number of commissions that had some CNC components, simply because I didn't have those capabilities and would not have cleared a decent profit if I had had to farm that work out to a CNC shop.  So I'm hoping the Shaper will expand the range of work I can tackle.

As for Shaper vs. Goliath, the lack of a dust collection on the Goliath really is a dealbreaker for me.  My shop is pretty small, and so I need to cut down on ambient dust as much as possible.  But I also occasionally do site work in galleries/museums, so minimizing my dust footprint is really important (I think I've told the story before about how I lost a gig at a gallery because my router ended up spraying MDF dust all over the artwork, which caused them to delay an art opening a few hours while we cleaned everything up).

It also matters, though, that Festool is now behind Shaper, which gives me more confidence that the company will be around for a few years, and won't simply fizzle out after the first generation of its tools.  But I'm glad to see more portable CNC products on the market, as the competition will presumably result in more and faster innovation down the line.
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Offline Timtool

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 02:46 PM »

Tim, it is not a competitor to X-carve, which is already inexpensive and compact. Neither it is a competitor to a 2×4 meter 5 ton machine. It's a niche product, just like any other. It's niche is sign making, prototyping plywood furniture, inlay, templates, etc. in a small shop, designer studio, or directly on work site.

Their website appears unequivocal about it competing directly with traditional CNC's, through multiple comparisons and diagrams. If you have little or zero CNC knowledge, you'd start to think that this is a miracle machine. So I think it's necessary to point out, as you did, that this also has limitations. Limitations that are completely omitted on their website.
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Offline antss

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 08:53 PM »
Tim - few advertisements (websites) highlight or even mention their product's shortcomings.

The only ones I can think of offhand are drug co.'s and financial services.  And they do so only because the Federal Govnt. mandates they do so.

I do agree with you that this and the origin are not replacements for a traditional CNC machine.

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Goliath to slay Shaper Origin ?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 09:21 PM »
I have large cnc machines and small one and portable ones. I have also used the Shaper. I also have a comprehensive supply of festoool and other manufacturer's tools and hand tools. each one has its strong points and weaknesses. there is a saying , if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. there is no super solution, no solution that will satisfy all. there is a reason when going into a tool supply store there is not just one tool to buy to handle all situations. my technical background is mechanical engineering, so I am kind of addicted to tech...)