Author Topic: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?  (Read 7269 times)

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Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
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How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« on: March 11, 2017, 12:49 AM »
I've been feeling guilty for highjacking the 'Attention HAMMER K3 WINNER owners!!' thread so thought it best to begin my own thread on the issues I have had thus far in trying to purchase the K3 table saw.

To recap: I contacted a Felder/Hammer rep - David Brooks, whose email address was posted in the aforementioned thread. This past Monday (6MAR17) he contacted me and together with Jesse Maynerich (Senior Sales Representative at the New Castle, DE Felder Group) they provided links to videos and were answering every question I had. When I asked Mr. Brooks what s/h would be for the K3 he asked for my address.  When he realized that I lived in New Mexico he said that I lived in the CA district and he would have to have a CA rep take over.  He said he would provide the CA rep with all of my questions and he would soon call me.  The call the from the CA rep (I am not naming him intentionally because I have an email in to Mr. Maynerich and will let him deal with this rep) came through in short order and we had a nice chat.  I apologized for needing all the info and the CA rep said no problem as he understood it was a pricey machine and he would be happy to answer all of my questions as soon as he could.  Just to be clear this was 6 Mar 17.

By 9 Mar - this past Thursday, I had not heard back from the CA rep. So I contacted the Dallas Felder office via their Contact page.  Then as if by magic I suddenly hear back from the CA rep whose email began with 'Thank you for your time on the phone today.'  Today?  This was followed by '... and let me know if you have any questions.'  Then he had the balls to attach a contract for me to sign. Smoke was coming out of my ears by this time which was making Bella (our border collie) bark at me.

I will not try to figure out what this person's problem is but I will say this: I was very serious about wanting to purchase the K3 and now the N4400 as well, but this sale went south once Mr. Brooks handed me off to Mr. CA Representative.

As noted above I am in the process of composing a letter to Mr. Maynerich and will send it off tomorrow.  My original missive was worded a bit too 'harshly' and decided to wait a day or two to simmer down.  My wife is very good a making me simmer down: "Either you chill out or you'll be sharing Bella's bowl! So which is it?"  Yes, mam.

Going slightly off topic ...

Why do I want the K3?  There must be some reason I am enduring all of this pain, right? 

I want the K3 for a lot of reasons, but IMHO what really separates the K3 from the rest of the consumer table saws is its ability to use 12-inch blades.  The K3 would actually make my shop bigger because I could sell my current Craftsman TS AND my Craftsman 12-inch radial arm saw.  I love my RA because it will cut 4-inch stock while my TS will only slice 3-1/8" stock (as I recall) if not using one of my sleds.  However, when the RA's 220V motor rev's up you'd better be on full alert because IMHO this machine is the most dangerous power tool in my shop.  I know my RA backwards and forwards - I've had it since the early 70's, and it has served me very well, but a TS with a 12-inch blade would be preferable to owning my RA and my TS.

One could argue that all you have to do to slice 4-inch stock on a 10-inch TS is to flip the stock 180 degrees.  I can't argue that, but unless your stock is perfectly symmetrical and is being pushed through the blade via a perfectly perpendicular sled or miter gauge then you may end up with a not-so-perfect 4-inch slice.  This is just how I see my woodworking world and not everyone will agree.  I get that.  I go to great lengths to insure that all of my gear is as perfectly aligned as is humanly possible.  Again I can hear my lovely wife telling dinner guests how I "engineer my woodworking projects."  I have to admit she is correct. I have no excuses. Yes, mam.

Why not purchase a SawStop?  Ah, another great question.  From all of my research and from someone who has used one for several months, the problems are as follows: 
  • Problem #1. The simple act of changing blades can prevent the machine from running because the sensor must to be a predetermined distance from the blade.  If the new blade is not a perfect match you have to adjust the sensor to get it to work.  I really do not want a TS that I have to fiddle with everytime I change blades.
  • Problem #2 is that you need a complete new sensor for dadoing. 
  • Problem #3 the fact that this machine is just waiting to save my fingers by imploding its blade into the aluminum block would drive me nuts.

While this technology may be just the ticket for those who are prone to sticking their finger's where they do not belong, it just makes me very uncomfortable.  I can see all of the hammer's being thrown at me.  I get all the safety stuff and I know that 'accidents happen', but I would very much prefer a TS that started up regardless of what blade I needed for the job at hand.  But, and we all know there is a 'but ...', I may end up with one if I am not sucessful at purchasing the K3. 

All of this drama will play itself out in the next week or so.  Until then, thanks for hearing me out.


« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 04:50 PM by patriot »
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 01:15 AM »
I feel your pain brother and I'm hoping my recent move won't put me in a similar position. Until recently I was living in NSW (in Oz) and have just moved to Queensland. All of my quizzing and visits have been to the Felder NSW Australian HO and showroom, but now that I'm nearing the point where I'll have a decent size workshop, I'll need to procure my gear through the Queensland branch [unsure]

Don't compromise on the gear you want .. a 12" sliding table saw is a completely different animal to a 10" cabinet saw and having a slider that lets you bench you RAS is a much greater safety LEAP than a 10" cabinet sausage saver saw [wink] that effectively means you need to continue using the RAS for the big timber.

Felder is a decent company, but they may be using a sub agent in your area. Escalate you issues calmly and stay focused on the gear you want ..  the initial pain will be forgotten when you have everything setup in your workshop, working perfectly ... try budgeting for at least 5 stupid phone calls and 5 stupid emails and you just may come in under budget [big grin]

Good luck.

Kev.

Offline suds

  • Posts: 357
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 08:13 AM »
Initially, I had that problem but ended up conversing with Liz from the CA office.  She's great at getting back and I've spoken with her a number of times on the phone.  I was looking at the A3-26 or 31 but never did pull the trigger.
Regarding the SawStop, I have the PCS and absolutely love it.  I have the extra cartridge for the Dado set up and find switching between the two takes me less than 1 minute.  And I'm a clutz.  Adjusting the sensor is also done in seconds with the tools on the saw.
Not trying to talk you out of that beautiful saw but you might stop by and play with the SawStop if those objections are what's holding you from buying one. 
MFT's, Kapex, TS 55, Vac, 150 Rotrex, 300 Trion, Domino

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 09:21 AM »
I've been feeling guilty for highjacking the 'Attention HAMMER K3 WINNER owners!!' thread so thought it best to begin my own thread on the issues I have had thus far in trying to purchase the K3 table saw.
...
By 9 Mar - this past Thursday, I had not heard back from the CA rep. So I contacted the Dallas Felder office via their Contact page.  Then as if by magic I suddenly hear back from the CA rep whose email began with 'Thank you for your time on the phone today.'  Today?  This was followed by '... and let me know if you have any questions.'  Then he had the balls to attach a contract for me to sign. Smoke was coming out of my ears by this time which was making Bella (our border collie) bark at me.

I will not try to figure out what this person's problem is but I will say this: I was very serious about wanting to purchase the K3 and now the N4400 as well, but this sale went south once Mr. Brooks handed me off to Mr. CA Representative.

As noted above I am in the process of composing a letter to Mr. Maynerich and will send it off tomorrow.  My original missive was worded a bit too 'harshly' and decided to wait a day or two to simmer down.  My wife is very good a making me simmer down: "Either you chill out or you'll be sharing Bella's bowl! So which is it?"  Yes, mam.
...
All of this drama will play itself out in the next week or so.  Until then, thanks for hearing me out.

Seriously, you state you are serious about a purchase, had your questions answered, and now you are 'offended' when presented with a contract.  Each and every time I have made a Felder purchase, the price and options were quoted on a contract form and I have always changed the configuration and options following discussions with the rep and looking at the cost of each option.  This is really necessary to avoid misunderstandings.  The machine is built to your individual specifications and the contract form is really the only practical way to do this.  These machines are not off the shelf and stored ready for immediate delivery to your shop.  If you are upset about response over a few days, one can only imagine the angst you will endure waiting the 3-4 month delivery time (remember the custom built to your specs part).  I have never been offended by presentation of a contract - after all, no one was forcing me to sign it and it is just the sales rep asking to close the deal. 

FWIW, I have dealt with Fergus Cooke in Sacramento and Carl Knapp in LA and both have gotten back to me within a week or less (sometimes they had to get answers to my questions from Austria). 
Steve

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 09:38 AM »
@ Steve Row

Sorry for the confusion, but I was inferring that not a single question that I originally asked was answered. I thought I mentioned that everything was going fine when working with Mr. Brooks and Mr. Maynerich.  It was when the CA rep took over that the flow of useful communication came to a halt.

Thanks for your post.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline morgan

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 09:59 AM »
I believe Carl Knapp is the exclusive dealer for New Mexico.  Although I purchased an A3-41, I did so with many unanswered questions and in hindsight,  I didn't get what I wanted.  It wasn't for the sake of not asking the questions,  Carl simply ignored me and my questions.  When I couldn't get a hold of him,  I tried calling the Delaware office,  they were very kind but they insisted I speak to Carl.  Carl finally sent the quote and there were a couple things I wanted changed,  that never happened. I get random calls and emails from him still,  kinda like yours,  "thanks for your time in the phone today", or better yet,  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider..." and I'm totally confused trying to figure out who Mike is because I don't have a sliding table saw.  The electrical system of my jointer failed with less than 2 hours of use on it.  The service department was very helpful in helping my diagnose the problems, I did have to get an electrician to diagnose the problems on the phone with felder although the offered to pay him,  he didn't charge me. It did take almost 3 weeks to receive the new electrical components and motor and putting it in wasn't the easiest thing to do.  Living in New Mexico as well, I discovered that they weren't willing to send a tech out and the only remedy that Felder offered was to send me the parts. As you would imagine,  your equipment never fails when you don't need it.  I was really bummed with myself for selling my 6" jointer and lunchbox planer,  I really could have used them at the moment.  Looking back,  I'm not sure it's worth it.  I would be more inclined to go with another manufacturer that offered better service.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 10:21 AM »
I think that is interesting about the contract sale method. I am not sure in patriot's case but if I was sent a contract without prior knowledge of the sales method I would be at least wondering ..... 'what the heck is this all about?'

Seth

Offline RobBob

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 11:01 AM »
I bought an A3-31 and received very good service from the Delaware office.  The first one they sent was damaged by the shipper and I rejected it. Hammer/Felder was very easy to deal with, kept me informed about what was going on, and followed up after I received my new machine to make sure I was happy. 

I believe they use contracts because these machines are pretty much made to order.  They do not stock them.  That's why you have to wait several weeks.  The more expensive commercial machines (Felder, Format4) cost tens of thousands of dollars.  Without a contract someone could change their mind after the machine has been built and is on its way from Austria or wherever it is made.  Then they would be stuck with an expensive machine that they have to store and find another buyer for.  I would guess that this not a big problem with the hobby level Hammer machines, but the same principle applies.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:07 AM by RobBob »

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 11:15 AM »
I believe Carl Knapp is the exclusive dealer for New Mexico.  Although I purchased an A3-41, I did so with many unanswered questions and in hindsight,  I didn't get what I wanted.  It wasn't for the sake of not asking the questions,  Carl simply ignored me and my questions.  When I couldn't get a hold of him,  I tried calling the Delaware office,  they were very kind but they insisted I speak to Carl.  Carl finally sent the quote and there were a couple things I wanted changed,  that never happened. I get random calls and emails from him still,  kinda like yours,  "thanks for your time in the phone today", or better yet,  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider..." and I'm totally confused trying to figure out who Mike is because I don't have a sliding table saw.  The electrical system of my jointer failed with less than 2 hours of use on it.  The service department was very helpful in helping my diagnose the problems, I did have to get an electrician to diagnose the problems on the phone with felder although the offered to pay him,  he didn't charge me. It did take almost 3 weeks to receive the new electrical components and motor and putting it in wasn't the easiest thing to do.  Living in New Mexico as well, I discovered that they weren't willing to send a tech out and the only remedy that Felder offered was to send me the parts. As you would imagine,  your equipment never fails when you don't need it.  I was really bummed with myself for selling my 6" jointer and lunchbox planer,  I really could have used them at the moment.  Looking back,  I'm not sure it's worth it.  I would be more inclined to go with another manufacturer that offered better service.

Thanks for your post, Morgan.

I'm sitting here shaking my head at all of the drama that transpires when a guy is trying to spend a ton of money on a power tool and it just seems that most of the rep's you are required to deal with seem to be discouraging you every step of the way.  I don't get it.  Perhaps they do not work on commission? 

It's pointless trying to figure this out, but it is also very frustrating when you want to own the tool they are offering. It also makes me ponder the actual success of companies that have no idea of how to work in any meaningful way with consumer's upon whom they depend.  In my case, if the CA rep had answered all of my questions, I would probably have ordered the K3 or the N4400 by now. 

I suppose that like everything else in life we have to make compromises regardless of the path we take.  Case in point: Late last night I got an email from my website Contact form from some guy who had purchased an Inca 710 bandsaw like I currently own.  (How he connected the dots from the 710 to me is still a mystery.)  Anyway, the point being that when I purchased my 710 I had to wait nearly 9 months to receive it from Garrett-Wade back in the early 90's as I recall.  I remember thinking at the time that I truly had no idea what I was getting myself into by purchasing a 'foreign' bandsaw and having to wait several months to receive it.  One of the first questions that I was asked by this gentleman was how the bearings were doing?  Quite honestly, I had never pondered that question and have never had a single issue with the wheel-bearings or the tires.

Fortunately, my 710 has served me very well, but from what I have read that is not the norm.  It is far from perfect.  The roller-guide bearings are very poorly designed and dust collection is atrocious at best even with my Festool CT 36 hooked up to it.  So, the question is would I purchase this bandsaw again?  I think the honest answer would be yes, but that was then. 

Today, because of the experience I now have with the Inca, I think I would be better served by a N4400 style bandsaw.  I say this because nearly all of my woodworking stock comes from logs that I havested when we lived in Chicago and brought back to NM.  My Inca does not have the power to rough cut these oak and maple slabs.  It's cutting height is only 8-inches which is much too shallow to cut most of these slabs.  The bottom line would be that back when I purchased my Inca it was perfect for me.  Today, I really need the capabilities that a N4400 style bandsaw has to offer.

Lastly, your mention of Carl Knapp brought back memories of my original contact with Felder when I was interested in the N4400.  I had forgotten his name.  He kept after me to purchase the N4400, but really do not recall much else.  I do know that I was serious about the N4400 because I wired my shop with a 10ga/30A receptacle which I  believe the N4400 requires.  I could be wrong about this because I was considering the Laguna as well.

Take care.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 11:19 AM »
I think that is interesting about the contract sale method. I am not sure in patriot's case but if I was sent a contract without prior knowledge of the sales method I would be at least wondering ..... 'what the heck is this all about?'

Seth

Thanks for your post.

When I was working with Mr. Brooks and Mr. Mayernich I was told that they had two K3's in the Delaware showroom.  I am assuming that is truly the case, but I may never know. [sad]

Take care.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 12:49 PM »
Welcome to the world of higher end woodworking equipment. Most suppliers like Martin, Felder, SCM etc work from contracts especially when the machines are made to order. While most of the Hammer line is the entry level with fewer options to the Felder line, a lot of it is now stocked to cut down on wait times. It is typically offered  first even if it isn't exactly what you want, your choice shorter wait or 3 to 4 month delivery.

John

Offline morgan

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 01:25 PM »
Something to take into consideration on these Hammer machines is that most of the motors are only rated for a 40% duty cycle. So in theory, you can run the machine for 24 minutes straight then it needs a 36 minute break.

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 02:05 PM »
Welcome to the world of higher end woodworking equipment. Most suppliers like Martin, Felder, SCM etc work from contracts especially when the machines are made to order. While most of the Hammer line is the entry level with fewer options to the Felder line, a lot of it is now stocked to cut down on wait times. It is typically offered  first even if it isn't exactly what you want, your choice shorter wait or 3 to 4 month delivery.

John
Did I hear a chuckle at the end of that first sentence? [big grin]

Yeah, I hear you on the contract requirement.  I have no problem with that at all.  I will admit that this is new to me, but I understand why they do that and also why they want 20% up front.  I'd probably do likewise if I were them.  If a guy backs out that 20% will probably end up be the 'restocking fee'. [scared]

Thanks for your post.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2017, 02:54 PM »
Initially, I had that problem but ended up conversing with Liz from the CA office.  She's great at getting back and I've spoken with her a number of times on the phone.  I was looking at the A3-26 or 31 but never did pull the trigger.
Regarding the SawStop, I have the PCS and absolutely love it.  I have the extra cartridge for the Dado set up and find switching between the two takes me less than 1 minute.  And I'm a clutz.  Adjusting the sensor is also done in seconds with the tools on the saw.
Not trying to talk you out of that beautiful saw but you might stop by and play with the SawStop if those objections are what's holding you from buying one.

Suds, thanks for your post.  Very informative ... and also just a bit biased. [big grin]  I'm kidding, of course, but I get what you are saying.

I have looked at the SS for several years, but something just prevents me from ordering one.  I think I know what that is and I will probably get in trouble for saying so.  In so many words, I feel that this machine is like Big Brother looking out for me.  That may sound totally ridiculous, but that's how I feel about it.  If someone is dumb enough to 'accidentally' have a workshop tool cut him then he has no one to blame but himself.  IMO, and speaking from experience, every time I have cut myself in my shop it was because I was doing something stupid.  Stupid has consequences.

Case in point: Years ago I was rushing to slice a tall oak board about 6-inches or so on my bandsaw.  I knew the blade was dull but was in too big a hurry to change it. (AKA being lazy!) My habit is to use 'dull' Wood Slicer's for slicing stock no taller than 2-inches.  For anything over that I switch to blades that are considered 'sharp'.  ( I attach large cards to each of my bandsaw blades to keep a log of their use and relative sharpness.)  Anyway, I was pushing this stock through the blade and was nearly finished when suddenly the stock exploded along the kerf.  This 'explosion' was due to tension in the board and the kerf was just sufficiently long enough for the tension to rip open the board.  Needless to say, this was the last thing I was expecting to happen and in an instance my hand slammed right into the blade.  The good Lord must have been looking out for me that day because as bad as the 'kerf' in my finger looked the scar is barely visible today. 

Looking back on that experience I'm fairly certain that if I had swapped in a sharp blade the accident would not have happened because I would not have been pushing as hard as I was to make the cut with a dull blade. So again, stupid has consequences.  Lesson learned and well deserved.

So, all of this said, if I end up with the PCS I will probably be a happy camper and you can rightfully snicker at me, but I'm not at that point yet.  If it came in a 12' blade model I would probably already own one.  I've read rumors about this coming soon, but have no idea if this is true or not.  One thing I do like is their shipping charge - $250!  No questions asked. 

You can quit twisting my arm now. [smile]

Take care.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline Picktool

  • Posts: 116
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2017, 03:29 PM »
@patriot

If you should happen to do the Hammer K3 & N4400 & whatever other machine
ship them all at once and save $$ on the shipping.

I paid extra shipping for the FAT300, #1 because I wanted it now or #2
wait 2 more months. Shipping for that wasnt fun either.
Other than that, service was great and even if I havent purchased anything
lately I still get an email here/there if I may need something or what sale is on.
The wait sucks but at least you have time to reconfigure your setup if need be.
Well Dogey

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 05:03 PM »
I feel your pain brother and I'm hoping my recent move won't put me in a similar position. Until recently I was living in NSW (in Oz) and have just moved to Queensland. All of my quizzing and visits have been to the Felder NSW Australian HO and showroom, but now that I'm nearing the point where I'll have a decent size workshop, I'll need to procure my gear through the Queensland branch [unsure]

Don't compromise on the gear you want .. a 12" sliding table saw is a completely different animal to a 10" cabinet saw and having a slider that lets you bench you RAS is a much greater safety LEAP than a 10" cabinet sausage saver saw [wink] that effectively means you need to continue using the RAS for the big timber.

Felder is a decent company, but they may be using a sub agent in your area. Escalate you issues calmly and stay focused on the gear you want ..  the initial pain will be forgotten when you have everything setup in your workshop, working perfectly ... try budgeting for at least 5 stupid phone calls and 5 stupid emails and you just may come in under budget [big grin]

Good luck.

Kev.

Hey kev!

Thanks for your awesome post.  Surely you're a full-time comedian. Yes?   [big grin].

If I may, I would love to quote your last line forever or until I pass whichever is the longest.  [cool]  You're way too funny for your own good.

Asking me to 'escalate my issues calmly' may be asking a bit too much of me, but I will try my best.  I will know more when I hear back from the Felder home office.  I'm assuming that I will hear back from them.

Regardless, yes, a TS with a 12-inch saw blade would really make my day and my shop will be safer and roomier for it.

Thanks again for a great post and I wish you the best with your Felder purchases.

Cheers!
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline ben_r_

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2017, 09:43 PM »
Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline patriot

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2017, 09:48 PM »
Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 09:52 PM by patriot »
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 514
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 06:40 AM »
Regarding your experience with the sales rep - I frequently need to remind myself to "assume positive intent".  Believe me, it's difficult at times but it really does work in your favor.

When you received the follow up consider the following - he had already typed up the follow-up email and never hit send.  I do it all the time at work.  Make me a bad person?  Nope, everyone gets busy, distracted by the boss...only to return to find your darn PC has been auto-restarted to apply a windows patch by the IT department.  He could have quickly hit send without proofreading out of embarrassment when he was reminded he never followed up?  Tried to send you a "contract" because he couldn't remember the true context of your previous engagement and figured it was for a quote and didn't want you to have to ask again because that might just make you more displeased.

I only share this angle because I believe I tend to more frequently fail to assume positive intent.  When I reflect I realize that, for the most part, the only thing I get out of those situations  is unhappiness which I occasionally then push onto someone else.  Rarely did it benefit anyone.  I can, on the other hand, remember dozens of times where I've been rewarded for being nice or friendly - a drink on the house, a discount when one wasn't actually available, a freebie here and there. 

I say give the dude a break, smile at him through the phone, and see what happens next.  If you do you might just be helping me out since there's a good chance I'm the next one he'll be talking to.  :)


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Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 07:03 AM »
Something to take into consideration on these Hammer machines is that most of the motors are only rated for a 40% duty cycle. So in theory, you can run the machine for 24 minutes straight then it needs a 36 minute break.

Morgan just to clear up your statement, the motors S6 with a 40% rating. If you do your research you will find that an S6 motor is good for continuous run and full load operation for 40% of that runtime. This rating is quite common for many woodworking machines because of the way operations are carried out. Unless you are pushing that motor continuously at full load which rarely happens on a sliding tablesaw or any other shop machines the motors are the perfect match to machine use.

John

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 736
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2017, 07:20 AM »
Welcome to the world of higher end woodworking equipment. Most suppliers like Martin, Felder, SCM etc work from contracts especially when the machines are made to order. While most of the Hammer line is the entry level with fewer options to the Felder line, a lot of it is now stocked to cut down on wait times. It is typically offered  first even if it isn't exactly what you want, your choice shorter wait or 3 to 4 month delivery.

John
Did I hear a chuckle at the end of that first sentence? [big grin]

Yeah, I hear you on the contract requirement.  I have no problem with that at all.  I will admit that this is new to me, but I understand why they do that and also why they want 20% up front.  I'd probably do likewise if I were them.  If a guy backs out that 20% will probably end up be the 'restocking fee'. [scared]

Thanks for your post.

One other small note try not to get sucked in to buying a machine that's not on sale or given a discount. These machines go on sale constantly especially around woodworking show times and you can save between 10 and 20%. I've own 8 different Felder machines since 2007 and never paid what they are asking. Also make sure you get all the accessories included in the quote also cheaper. The reason you may feel shipping is high is because of the shippers they use, but if the shipment is damaged they typically come good quickly. Many also don't want to pay for commissioning, typically a big mistake on a longer slider that's traveled from Austria in a shipping container and has to customer assembled once it arrives.

John

John

Offline mbrusso

  • Posts: 21
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2017, 10:09 AM »
I recently had a difficult experience purchasing a Hammer F3 from the the Mississauga Felder branch in Canada.  The salesperson was all over me to make the purchase as soon as I expressed interest. When the product showed up at my door, the guys who handled the machine had scraped up the side of the machine with their forklift and delivered it to me in that shape.

I've never seen anything like that in my life. When I talked to them about it, I got the "well maybe we can give you a discount on your next purchase" explanation.

I was charged full price for a floor model- delivered in rough shape. When I bought all of my powermatic equipment which  is supposedly an inferior brand, everything showed up in mint shape. The buying experience with that brand was a shining star in comparison.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 736
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2017, 11:04 AM »
Tell them to take the unit back and make it right and keep on them. I can almost guess the salesperson you were dealing with. Hopefully you didn't sign anything that said you accepted it in that condition. That is the office that I dealt with and they are not the best at keeping their customers happy after delivery. They will not get anymore of my business after recent dealings.

John

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2017, 11:41 AM »
Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.
Yea, about that power question, I have seen that discussed several times around the net. I have even had Liz look into it further for me. a 20A 220V circuit is all you need for the Hammer 4HP motor that is in the N4400 and A3-31 (those are the only two I use that motor, there might be more but Im not sure). I have been running my N4400 on 20A circuit since day one and its never caused any issue that Im aware of and Liz said everyone theyve sold them too has as well to the best of her knowledge.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1164
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2017, 11:51 AM »
Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.
Yea, about that power question, I have seen that discussed several times around the net. I have even had Liz look into it further for me. a 20A 220V circuit is all you need for the Hammer 4HP motor that is in the N4400 and A3-31 (those are the only two I use that motor, there might be more but Im not sure). I have been running my N4400 on 20A circuit since day one and its never caused any issue that Im aware of and Liz said everyone theyve sold them too has as well to the best of her knowledge.

I called the Delaware office to specifically ask the question about required amps.  The technical person I spoke to said 30 amps for the 4hp A3 31.  The setup manual says 30amps and the plate on the back of the machine says 18.9amps (or 19.8amps, can't remember which).  For safety's sake, these machines should run at no more than 80% of the circuit's amperage.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 11:57 AM by RobBob »

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2017, 12:17 PM »
Regarding your experience with the sales rep - I frequently need to remind myself to "assume positive intent".  Believe me, it's difficult at times but it really does work in your favor.

When you received the follow up consider the following - he had already typed up the follow-up email and never hit send.  I do it all the time at work.  Make me a bad person?  Nope, everyone gets busy, distracted by the boss...only to return to find your darn PC has been auto-restarted to apply a windows patch by the IT department.  He could have quickly hit send without proofreading out of embarrassment when he was reminded he never followed up?  Tried to send you a "contract" because he couldn't remember the true context of your previous engagement and figured it was for a quote and didn't want you to have to ask again because that might just make you more displeased.

I only share this angle because I believe I tend to more frequently fail to assume positive intent.  When I reflect I realize that, for the most part, the only thing I get out of those situations  is unhappiness which I occasionally then push onto someone else.  Rarely did it benefit anyone.  I can, on the other hand, remember dozens of times where I've been rewarded for being nice or friendly - a drink on the house, a discount when one wasn't actually available, a freebie here and there. 

I say give the dude a break, smile at him through the phone, and see what happens next.  If you do you might just be helping me out since there's a good chance I'm the next one he'll be talking to.  :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guilty as charged. 

In all honesty, I did consider the fact that his sent email may have been composed three days earlier and not been sent for whatever reason.  I'll buy that.  But, I would also assume that any rep (who wants to be successful) should keep a 'file' of some sort on each actual/potential customer so as to serve him better and keep the rep from making a fool of himself in the future.  Morgan noted earlier (in this thread) that a Felder rep mentioned  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider...".  Morgan had no idea who this Mike was, which underscores my point. 

I could continue making assumptions, but I'd be spinning my wheels.  However, your assumption was a good one, but man - I have never suffered fools gladly, moreso when I am ready to purchase something from them. 

Lastly, I will add that this makes me ponder that if they are making it difficult before I purchase from them what can I expect after I make the purchase and need assistance?

I appreciate your comments.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline mbrusso

  • Posts: 21
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2017, 01:46 PM »
Tell them to take the unit back and make it right and keep on them. I can almost guess the salesperson you were dealing with. Hopefully you didn't sign anything that said you accepted it in that condition. That is the office that I dealt with and they are not the best at keeping their customers happy after delivery. They will not get anymore of my business after recent dealings.

John

Hi John Thanks for sharing your experience.  I signed off noting the damage on the sign off form, but in the end, I'm likely not going to pursue any kind of return, as I've moved on and started setup of my machine.  It's going to cost me more time, and headache than what it's worth to go down that road. I just need to get working with my machine now.

One of his comments was "the beauty of powder coated paint is you can just take a scotch brite pad to scuffs and remove them" LOL. It was completely scraped off on spots on the bottom. also "yeah the guys can be kind of careless with the fork lift machine when moving equipment"   I asked "If I opened a brand new festool item in its systainer and saw it was damaged in any way, do you think I would accept it at the point of sale and buy it? So why would I act any differently just because it is a large machine and being shipped in a different manner"

Absolutely Brutal.

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2017, 02:15 PM »
@patriot

If you should happen to do the Hammer K3 & N4400 & whatever other machine
ship them all at once and save $$ on the shipping.

I paid extra shipping for the FAT300, #1 because I wanted it now or #2
wait 2 more months. Shipping for that wasnt fun either.
Other than that, service was great and even if I havent purchased anything
lately I still get an email here/there if I may need something or what sale is on.
The wait sucks but at least you have time to reconfigure your setup if need be.

Thanks for your informative post and suggestions.

One theme that I am picking up from all of the posts made in this thread is that, generally speaking,  you guys that purchase your Hammer/Felder gear from the East coast dealer get superior service.  This seems not to be the case from those who deal with the West coast dealers.  Funny, but no one has chimed in on their experience with the Dallas dealer??

I appreciate your comments.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2017, 02:28 PM »
Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.
Yea, about that power question, I have seen that discussed several times around the net. I have even had Liz look into it further for me. a 20A 220V circuit is all you need for the Hammer 4HP motor that is in the N4400 and A3-31 (those are the only two I use that motor, there might be more but Im not sure). I have been running my N4400 on 20A circuit since day one and its never caused any issue that Im aware of and Liz said everyone theyve sold them too has as well to the best of her knowledge.

I called the Delaware office to specifically ask the question about required amps.  The technical person I spoke to said 30 amps for the 4hp A3 31.  The setup manual says 30amps and the plate on the back of the machine says 18.9amps (or 19.8amps, can't remember which).  For safety's sake, these machines should run at no more than 80% of the circuit's amperage.
LOL and thats why there are several threads around the net with the question. Welp, all I can say is Ive been running mine on a 20A and have never blown a circuit or seen or heard anything that caused me any concern. However its not like running it on a 30A could hurt, so if youve got the 30A run use it!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Max Fracas

  • Posts: 81
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2017, 04:50 PM »
I'm running my A3/41 on a 20A circuit.  I can't remember where, but I recall reading  to put it on a 20A circuit and so far that has worked out just fine.

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2017, 05:11 PM »
I'm running my A3/41 on a 20A circuit.  I can't remember where, but I recall reading  to put it on a 20A circuit and so far that has worked out just fine.

I'm not sure about your machine, but all of my motors have a plate that tells you what the amp draw is.



If you look at the image above you will see AMPS. Next to that you will see 18/9. That means that the motor will pull 18A if configured for 120V, else it will pull 9A if set up to use 220V.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 05:14 PM by patriot »
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

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Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 91
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2017, 07:51 PM »
I have bought two Hammer machines from the California office, and came away with a "not so great" feeling about their attitude. I tried dealing with Delaware, but they decided that Louisiana was in the "west", so Calif. it was.

I dealt with a salesman that may no longer be there, and I don't remember his name. At that time Liz was an assistant to the sales team, but was always so cheerful and friendly that I wished that I was dealing with her.

On my second purchase a few years ago the salesman basically did not ever get back to me with answers to question for weeks, and I ended up with Fergus (whom I thought was a manger or senior sales). He acted like he was doing me a favor, and wouldn't honor the price I was previously quoted by the guy who went AWOL (although I had it in an email) because it had been several weeks (while I was waiting on answers to my questions). Fergus basically talked to me like he was doing ME a favor.

I finally got the machine for an in-between price, and haven't looked back. Since then Liz has become a salesperson, and does a nice job of touching base a couple times a year by email.

Last week I had problems logging in to their website and had to reset my password. The next day I got an email from "Sam" in Dallas noting that he saw me setting up a new user account, and offering to answer any questions I might have. My first response was 'WHAT", but instead I politely responded that I was just resetting my password, owned 2 machines already, and was being taken care of by Liz.

He responded very genuinely, apologized for the mistake, and let me know that territories are being re-assigned since Dallas is now up and running and closer to me.

I think that some of the Germanic stubbornness from Felder in Austria must rub off on the US offices a bit. In the 70's I raced Penton motorcycles, which were made by KTM in Austria. John Penton (from Ohio) spent 10 years building the bike of his vision, and hired KTM to do it. He almost went to blows with Eric Trunkenpolz (the T in KTM) many times in getting the bikes built.

Felder/Hammer makes great machines, and they do it their way, including the sale. So if you want their equipment just muddle through. In the long run the sales process will become just a memory, but the machines will literally be there forever.

As for the sawstop question. I went through a similar process. My hand surgeon (I had arthritis) was adamant that I get a sawstop. The euro sliding saws are just as safe in a different way. If you leave the riving knife/dust collecter chute on then your hands never come near the blade. The riving knife nearly eliminates kickback, and if using the table it is eliminated completely. The dust collection is pretty darn good compared to a cabinet saw, so much better on your lungs.

And last - you mostly stand to the left of the saw, not behind it - so you are much more protected from the dust and projectiles that do come out of the machine.

My only regret was not getting a bigger one. I have the 48 x 48 with no outrigger, and wish that I could straight line 8' on the sliding table, but have gotten very good at using my ts55 for that...

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 736
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2017, 08:06 PM »
As far as motor and loads go if the saw draws 18 amps on 220V it should by code in both the US and Canada be wired into a 30 amp circuit using 10ga. 20 amp services runs a 12 gauge wire and should only be loaded to 75% to 80% of rated capacity, so by code you can run 16A rated motors on this circuit. Will the motor run on a 20 amp circuit, yes it will but an inspector will slap your wrist and so might your house insurance if there is ever a problem. All good electricians know this.

John

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2017, 09:52 PM »
@SouthRider

Man, what a post!!  Thank you very much for all of that information.

When I was reading your comments I kept thinking 'He's in Louisiana, so why's he not working with the Dallas dealer?', but you cleared that up.  Also, this makes the third or forth time that Liz is mentioned.

You may or may not know this, but I have an email waiting to be sent to the Senior Sales rep in Delaware and am teetering on whether to purchase another brand or as you said just 'muddle' through it all and be done with it.  I am also wondering if I should just wait for a Sale to come up which may be soon and save some cash?

I recently read a post somewhere which noted that Felder/Hammer rep's had a very 'teutonic' attitude in dealing with their clients.  My Funk & Wagnal defines that (in so many words) as 'very German like'.  That pretty much mirrors what you noted.

Quite honestly, years ago I trashed the riving knife and the blade hood of my TS when I began making/using my own sleds.  That was years ago.  I have a deep respect for all power tools that cut, but riving knives do not work on TS due to the back support of the sled.  That said, just as you noted, standing off to the side of the slider is just a safe as using a SS.  And, as I noted earlier, the 12-inch blade  of a K3 would allow me to get rid of my RAS and my TS which would 'expand' my shop.

You have given me much to ponder.  Thank you very much for all of your comments.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 91
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2017, 10:14 PM »
I'd suggest calling Liz and asking what she can do to help. Their sales are oriented around the seasons, and sometimes feature machines while other times are accessories (usually winter I think).

I thought there was a sale going on now - check their "eshop". it shows the sales price when their is one.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2017, 11:15 PM »
I'd suggest calling Liz and asking what she can do to help. Their sales are oriented around the seasons, and sometimes feature machines while other times are accessories (usually winter I think).

I thought there was a sale going on now - check their "eshop". it shows the sales price when their is one.
They ALWAYS have some sale going on. So often that they may as well just lower the prices!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 123
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2017, 11:25 PM »
If you are or become truly fed up, you might consider SCMI/Minimax.  If so get in touch with Sam Blasco.  If you are processing logs you will likely be happier with the MM16 or MM20 than the N4400.   The MM series saws are built by Centauro in Italy and are heavier than the X10 series Felder saws (similar to the X40 series) and heavier than the ACM built Laguna, all of those saws are a step up from the N series Hammer saws.  I always thought the N4400 was a good buy when you could get it for under $2k but much less of a deal now. 

I know less about the differences between the Hammer vs Minimax sliders. 

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2017, 11:35 PM »
I'd suggest calling Liz and asking what she can do to help. Their sales are oriented around the seasons, and sometimes feature machines while other times are accessories (usually winter I think).

I thought there was a sale going on now - check their "eshop". it shows the sales price when their is one.

Thanks again for all of your help.

My email is ready to go, but your suggestion about calling Liz is making me rethink my strategy, if you want to call it that.  However, I see this going two possible ways:

  • If I call her first, she may defer once I disclose all of the details as to why I am calling her which I think is the only right thing to do;
  • I send my aforementioned email to the Senior Sales Rep in Delaware and respectfully request that he hand me off to Liz if he wants to make the sale.

I think that the latter approach may be the correct one.

As to the e-shop sales prices:
Hammer K3 79x48 $5390 (reduced from $8119.90)
Hammer N4400 $2690 (no price reduction found)

With S/H that looks like a $10K price tag.

Thanks again for your suggestions.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2017, 11:46 PM »
If you are or become truly fed up, you might consider SCMI/Minimax.  If so get in touch with Sam Blasco.  If you are processing logs you will likely be happier with the MM16 or MM20 than the N4400.   The MM series saws are built by Centauro in Italy and are heavier than the X10 series Felder saws (similar to the X40 series) and heavier than the ACM built Laguna, all of those saws are a step up from the N series Hammer saws.  I always thought the N4400 was a good buy when you could get it for under $2k but much less of a deal now. 

I know less about the differences between the Hammer vs Minimax sliders.

Holy cow!  Where you been the last few days? [big grin]

I just found the Minimax website and am now watching a video with Sam showing off the MM16.  This may just solve the Hammer drama, for the bandsaw anyway.

Stay tuned. [smile]
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 514
How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2017, 09:24 AM »
Regarding your experience with the sales rep - I frequently need to remind myself to "assume positive intent".  Believe me, it's difficult at times but it really does work in your favor.

When you received the follow up consider the following - he had already typed up the follow-up email and never hit send.  I do it all the time at work.  Make me a bad person?  Nope, everyone gets busy, distracted by the boss...only to return to find your darn PC has been auto-restarted to apply a windows patch by the IT department.  He could have quickly hit send without proofreading out of embarrassment when he was reminded he never followed up?  Tried to send you a "contract" because he couldn't remember the true context of your previous engagement and figured it was for a quote and didn't want you to have to ask again because that might just make you more displeased.

I only share this angle because I believe I tend to more frequently fail to assume positive intent.  When I reflect I realize that, for the most part, the only thing I get out of those situations  is unhappiness which I occasionally then push onto someone else.  Rarely did it benefit anyone.  I can, on the other hand, remember dozens of times where I've been rewarded for being nice or friendly - a drink on the house, a discount when one wasn't actually available, a freebie here and there. 

I say give the dude a break, smile at him through the phone, and see what happens next.  If you do you might just be helping me out since there's a good chance I'm the next one he'll be talking to.  :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guilty as charged. 

In all honesty, I did consider the fact that his sent email may have been composed three days earlier and not been sent for whatever reason.  I'll buy that.  But, I would also assume that any rep (who wants to be successful) should keep a 'file' of some sort on each actual/potential customer so as to serve him better and keep the rep from making a fool of himself in the future.  Morgan noted earlier (in this thread) that a Felder rep mentioned  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider...".  Morgan had no idea who this Mike was, which underscores my point. 

I could continue making assumptions, but I'd be spinning my wheels.  However, your assumption was a good one, but man - I have never suffered fools gladly, moreso when I am ready to purchase something from them. 

Lastly, I will add that this makes me ponder that if they are making it difficult before I purchase from them what can I expect after I make the purchase and need assistance?

I appreciate your comments.
Valid points, all of them.  I tend to have more confidence in a product when the purchasing and delivery experience is pristine.  Companies that have messy showroom floors, poorly designed websites, and train-wreck phone systems do lose business even if they have sought after products.  In this day and age businesses have ceased to exist for more trivial shortcomings.

As the years pass by I've found myself having more responsibilities and less time outside of them.  Time in the shop for me is, or needs to be, therapeutic.  Buying tools is an extension of that activity for me so added frustration or stress becomes even less desirable and as the dollar amount climbs, so does the reward or consequence of the activity. 

They say an happy customer may tell a friend about his experience but an unhappy customer will tell 10.  Real bummer for Hammer/Felder.  I was on the verge of ordering a planer but now I think I'll try a little harder to look around and find some alternate choices to consider as well.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 01:31 PM by Scorpion »

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2017, 09:42 AM »
@Scorpion

Very well said and my thoughts exactly.

My email to Mr. Maynerich has been sent.  I noted to him that it has been over a week and have yet to receive answers to the questions I requested on 6 March.

I will provide an update to all of this when - or if - I hear back from Mr. Maynerich.

Thanks for your comments.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 492
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2017, 10:26 AM »
Your reasons for not purchasing a SawStop are all weak at best. The reality is you want the Hammer, which is a completely different saw with a different design and capabilities. I'd buy the Hammer over the SawStop without a doubt.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 916
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2017, 11:03 AM »
If you are or become truly fed up, you might consider SCMI/Minimax.  If so get in touch with Sam Blasco.  If you are processing logs you will likely be happier with the MM16 or MM20 than the N4400.   The MM series saws are built by Centauro in Italy and are heavier than the X10 series Felder saws (similar to the X40 series) and heavier than the ACM built Laguna, all of those saws are a step up from the N series Hammer saws.  I always thought the N4400 was a good buy when you could get it for under $2k but much less of a deal now. 

I know less about the differences between the Hammer vs Minimax sliders.

Holy cow!  Where you been the last few days? [big grin]

I just found the Minimax website and am now watching a video with Sam showing off the MM16.  This may just solve the Hammer drama, for the bandsaw anyway.

Stay tuned. [smile]

You know, this may be a case of the grass is greener....  I was shopping for a J/P last fall and more recently a bandsaw.  It was down to MM or Hammer in both cases.  Customer service was an important aspect and frankly, I found shortcomings from both.  Not my own experience but simply scouring for posts on forums, owners groups, etc.  I think the hobbiest is the most difficult customer for them to cater to.  They expect more personalized service, need more education/information, spend less money, and expect a new car delivery experience (white glove delivery, no scratches or cosmetic blemishes).  Those might be lofty expectations for a company peddling industrial machinery.  I'm not sure either one excels, however, both build very good machinery and your alternatives may be asian imports assuming you're buying new.  One thing that was puzzling is it seems getting replacement parts from either one is challenging.  How can they successfully support these machines in a commercial environment if that is the case?  But if you've had a european car held hostage by the body shop due to parts availability, this wouldn't surprise you one bit. 

In the end I went with the Hammer J/P and MM16.  It has not been put into service yet, hopefully this spring if everything else lines up.  I saw the N4400 at a recent woodworking show and it didn't strike me as being built any better than a Laguna 14bx, but unfortunately it wasn't connected to power so that's as far as I got with it.  The MM16 has a pretty decent following and seems to have earned a (good) reputation.  Similar to an Italian car, it's got some niggling issues like a door that swings into the wheel or a history of bad switches, but on the whole, it appears to be a stout saw, but not in the same price or quality bracket as the N4400.  I think the baby Felder is more comparable.  I wish it was possible to perform a hands on demo of each of these prior to committing. 

In terms of my own experience with either company, no issues getting quotes or information from either.  Both seemed to have all the common information requested by hobbiests (buying sight unseen) right at their fingertips.  You just have to sift through the copied and pasted information, watch the videos, click the links, but it's there.  I didn't have to deal with shipping from Felder since I picked up at the warehouse.  The guy in the warehouse was very helpful and friendly and even took the machine back out of the truck to load it onto a standard pallet once i realized my pallet jack couldn't handle the mini pallet the machine was loaded on.  He also helped me strap the unit down in the truck.  My minimax hasn't shipped yet, but I've read they come shipped on their spine rather than upright to minimize potential for shipping injuries.  The freight charges appear to reflect that.  I was in touch with Sam during the purchase process for the J/P and he was helpful.  That's the main reason I returned to him when looking at the bandsaws.  I could have picked up from the Felder DE office, but I liked the MM16 and wanted to give Sam some of my business since he was so helpful.  In addition, it's quite clear Sam doesn't just sell the saws, he's been using them for some time (I didn't realize this when I first contacted him about the J/P).  So if I have an issue, I can go back to someone that is intimately familiar with them. 

Good luck.  Hopefully all this will be behind you soon and you can enjoy the new equipment. 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:06 AM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2017, 11:25 AM »
Your reasons for not purchasing a SawStop are all weak at best. The reality is you want the Hammer, which is a completely different saw with a different design and capabilities. I'd buy the Hammer over the SawStop without a doubt.

Well, you're sorta right ... [smile]

As I noted earlier, I have a friend who enrolled at a woodworking course in Santa Fe and they used SS table saw's exclusively in the course. My buddy said the SS sensor had to be tweaked everytime they changed blades.  In addition, if you want to use a dado set you have to change out the aluminum brake and install the optional dado brake.  He said they always succeeded in getting the machine back in operation, but it was a pain.  His words were the SS is a 'high maintenance' machine.

In terms of safety, I think the Hammer is every bit as safe as the SS, but in a different way.  I won't argue that the SS can save fingers (or sausages), but this woodworker has great respect for sharp rotating blades especially TS blades.

That said I had an experience yesterday that made me really want a TS with a long slider.  I am making a new 3-inch bench top out of maple and a slider would have made cutting the heavy maple planks a breeze.  I had to resort to using my TS75, but support wise, slicing the last 3-inch section was a bit iffy because the plank was slightly twisted.  Using a TS with a long slider would have been perfect for the task and taken much less time to accomplish.  And, I think safer as well.

In addition, the Hammer utilizes 12-inch blades. A TS with that capability would enable me to do away with my 12-inch RAS and my TS which would give me a bit more room in my shop.

While agonizing over all of this I have wished that I could 'buy American', but when spending this much moola I want to get the biggest bang for my  buck.

Thanks for your post.
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2017, 04:25 PM »
LOL "SawStops are high maintenance"! Ha ha thats just silly. They're no more than any other good table saw. Swapping out brakes takes about 30 seconds. Itll take longer to pick the blade or setup the dado stack.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 123
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2017, 04:26 PM »


  The MM16 has a pretty decent following and seems to have earned a (good) reputation.  Similar to an Italian car, it's got some niggling issues like a door that swings into the wheel or a history of bad switches, but on the whole, it appears to be a stout saw, but not in the same price or quality bracket as the N4400. 

For clarity sake the switch issues were shared by the S45 and the MM16 but were traceable to a single batch of switches and has been rectified for over a decade.  There were also some issue with some of the 50hz Italian motors but also rectified.  The S45 is more of a competitor for the N4400 but with a higher European part content.  Minimax doesn't sell many of the S45n bandsaws in the US due to being fairly close to the MM16 price.  The S45n is built by SCMi not Centauro.  The bottom door hitting the mobility kit wheels is still an issue with all the MM saws when putting on blades near the capacity of the saw, you can add a wooden block to extend the wheels back and inch or so or use machine leveling casters if you need the saw to be mobile. 

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 492
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2017, 06:15 PM »
Your reasons for not purchasing a SawStop are all weak at best. The reality is you want the Hammer, which is a completely different saw with a different design and capabilities. I'd buy the Hammer over the SawStop without a doubt.

Well, you're sorta right ... [smile]

As I noted earlier, I have a friend who enrolled at a woodworking course in Santa Fe and they used SS table saw's exclusively in the course. My buddy said the SS sensor had to be tweaked everytime they changed blades.  In addition, if you want to use a dado set you have to change out the aluminum brake and install the optional dado brake.  He said they always succeeded in getting the machine back in operation, but it was a pain.  His words were the SS is a 'high maintenance' machine.

In terms of safety, I think the Hammer is every bit as safe as the SS, but in a different way.  I won't argue that the SS can save fingers (or sausages), but this woodworker has great respect for sharp rotating blades especially TS blades.

That said I had an experience yesterday that made me really want a TS with a long slider.  I am making a new 3-inch bench top out of maple and a slider would have made cutting the heavy maple planks a breeze.  I had to resort to using my TS75, but support wise, slicing the last 3-inch section was a bit iffy because the plank was slightly twisted.  Using a TS with a long slider would have been perfect for the task and taken much less time to accomplish.  And, I think safer as well.

In addition, the Hammer utilizes 12-inch blades. A TS with that capability would enable me to do away with my 12-inch RAS and my TS which would give me a bit more room in my shop.

While agonizing over all of this I have wished that I could 'buy American', but when spending this much moola I want to get the biggest bang for my  buck.

Thanks for your post.

I can guarantee you will not be disappointed with the Hammer. I do not have one, but have spent some time using one.

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2017, 06:23 PM »
You had asked about the Dallas office, so I will comment. 
     I recently bought the A3-31 from Sam Striegler and had a good experience. 
    I saw the machine at their showroom (I happened to be near Dallas one day for business).  I had unexpectedly arrived after hours, and it was actually his suite mate who kindly let me in and ran that and a few other machines for me.  He has a furniture shop and is an end user rather than a salesperson, but he was very enthusiastic about their equipment.  I needed a jointer and not a planer, but I liked the combo.
    I called Sam and told him what I was looking for, and he answered the questions I had.   He was prompt at returning calls, and he actually answered one of my calls to his cell phone when he was traveling in Austria.  He said he would send me a quote to review, and I was interested to sign and send it back with the 20% deposit.  They had several in stock and said they could deliver whenever I was ready.
    I had some technical questions, mainly about electrical requirements, and he put me in touch with Brian Lester (out of Delaware, I think), and he answered those questions promptly.  (Some of the written documentation calls for 30A, which I had, but some other documentation and the actual tag on the machine said to use a 20A circuit, so I had an electrician make a subpanel that they attached to the back of the A3 with magnets.  Photo will be posted below).
    This was my first time to buy equipment that I couldn't put in my SUV, and I was worried about getting it across a gravel driveway into the garage and unloading it.  They arranged shipping and told me what to expect in terms of the driver and the size of his truck.  He called me 30 minutes before delivery.  It arrived in good shape.  He placed it in the garage for me, no problem.
     A few days after delivery, Sam called back to make sure everything was A-OK, which it was.  Pretty much every aspect of the deal was easier than I had expected, and even the electrical issues were, in retrospect, fairly straightforward. 
    It was very different from, and candidly, more difficult than, the usual retail experience at Woodcraft or Rockler, but my guess is they are more geared to dealing with professional shops than hobbiests and they didn't have a showroom in Houston.  If Sam had sent me a quote without letting me know it was coming, it might have rubbed me the wrong way with all the legalese, but I was expecting what I got.
    It is a shame that you had a bad experience with their responsiveness.  Had that been my experience, I might have gone a different route, but I am really happy with the machine.
    Here is the subpanel I had installed.



   

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2017, 06:29 PM »
You had asked about the Dallas office, so I will comment. 
     I recently bought the A3-31 from Sam Striegler and had a good experience. 
    I saw the machine at their showroom (I happened to be near Dallas one day for business).  I had unexpectedly arrived after hours, and it was actually his suite mate who kindly let me in and ran that and a few other machines for me.  He has a furniture shop and is an end user rather than a salesperson, but he was very enthusiastic about their equipment.  I needed a jointer and not a planer, but I liked the combo.
    I called Sam and told him what I was looking for, and he answered the questions I had.   He was prompt at returning calls, and he actually answered one of my calls to his cell phone when he was traveling in Austria.  He said he would send me a quote to review, and I was interested to sign and send it back with the 20% deposit.  They had several in stock and said they could deliver whenever I was ready.
    I had some technical questions, mainly about electrical requirements, and he put me in touch with Brian Lester (out of Delaware, I think), and he answered those questions promptly.  (Some of the written documentation calls for 30A, which I had, but some other documentation and the actual tag on the machine said to use a 20A circuit, so I had an electrician make a subpanel that they attached to the back of the A3 with magnets.  Photo will be posted below).
    This was my first time to buy equipment that I couldn't put in my SUV, and I was worried about getting it across a gravel driveway into the garage and unloading it.  They arranged shipping and told me what to expect in terms of the driver and the size of his truck.  He called me 30 minutes before delivery.  It arrived in good shape.  He placed it in the garage for me, no problem.
     A few days after delivery, Sam called back to make sure everything was A-OK, which it was.  Pretty much every aspect of the deal was easier than I had expected, and even the electrical issues were, in retrospect, fairly straightforward. 
    It was very different from, and candidly, more difficult than, the usual retail experience at Woodcraft or Rockler, but my guess is they are more geared to dealing with professional shops than hobbiests and they didn't have a showroom in Houston.  If Sam had sent me a quote without letting me know it was coming, it might have rubbed me the wrong way with all the legalese, but I was expecting what I got.
    It is a shame that you had a bad experience with their responsiveness.  Had that been my experience, I might have gone a different route, but I am really happy with the machine.
    Here is the subpanel I had installed.
(Attachment Link)


   
Im wondering, I need to check my N4400, but what gauge wire does the wire coming out of the motor on your A3-31 have listed?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline HAXIT

  • Posts: 166
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2017, 08:19 PM »
@patriot
First, I do understand your frustration and if you think it is just you then you are wrong because this things happen to people from time to time. Thinking about changing the brand because of sales people did not take care of you the way they should will not be a best solution and how do you know that the other company has better if not worst sales people in the show room. I have a Hammer A3 31 and the N4400 bandsaw and both of them are great machines. You would not be unhappy with any Hammer machines.
I bought mine from Delaware office and I had excellent experience not only from them but also from the dealer in Canada!
You might think what the heck is going on here now?! Well, I am in US but I have no business in Delaware and it is not close to me to drive there but I go Toronto a lot and I thought to go to the dealer and see the machines as well when I am there. I called the dealer in Canada and talk to one of the sales representative on the floor and I explained for him clearly that what was my plan. I told him that I would like to see these two machines but I am not going to buy it from you because I live in US and I am not close to Delaware show room to go there but most likely that would be the dealer for my area, so this is your business and if you do not like to do this for me, I have no problem with that and I understand and respect it as well. Here was his answer, you are a gentleman and I do understand your situation and would have no problem to demo the machines. Make the long story short, I was there for two hours and I got all the information I need and test drive the machines and came home then I called the Delaware office and I order the machines. When I called them and here is the fun part. I did not let the sales man even talk and I told him that anything he might want to tell me I already know, how much for this two machines shipped together and how long I should wait?
The machines arrived packed excellent and on time, and even the driver told me that he has been in this business for 35 years and he never saw such a good packed item ever. I took out about 300 torx screws from this shipment and I used the wood to build a table which I use it in the garage.
I will post more about my experience later I have to leave now for an hour. Sorry folks

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2017, 11:38 PM »
@HAXIT
@Mismarked
@JimH2
@RKA
@ Everyone else who has been following along

Well, the drama is over:  This afternoon I ordered the 79x48 K3.

This is how it all went down:  As some (or all) of you know I sent an email off to Mr. Jesse Mayernich (Senior Sales Representative) in New Castle, DE, about my experience with Felder's CA rep.  I was polite but to the point.  Within less than an hour I heard back from Mr. Maynerich.  His email response began with 'Please let me be your source contact moving forward.' 

Fast forwarding, he provided all of the information that I had been requesting within the next hour.  Then he scheduled a phone call at 1300H (my time) and took care of every need that I had.  And the funny part (IMO) is that he handed me back to the original sales rep, Mr. David Brooks, that I had contacted on 3 MAR.  Once again, Mr. Brooks wanted to know if their was anything else he could he could do for me. He sent the contract - that I was expecting this time - and I made a few changes and sent it back.  We are scheduled to conclude everything tomorrow morning. 

I asked for the K3 to come with a 12-inch blade installed and not the normal 10-inch blade.  They took care of that no problem.  I will have them toss in their dado set because I seem to do a lot of finger joint joinery (drawers and so on).  Delivery date will be in April sometime. 

While this put a smile on my face (and a serious dent in my bank account), the fact that my two cousin's (brothers) in Santa Fe were delighted to take my trusty Craftsman TS put an every bigger smile on my mug.  Cousin Ralph said he'd give me whatever I thought it was worth as they really needed a good TS.  I suggested $1 and he say 'No way!'  He argued. I won.  It is not often that I can do something good for my family.

They will come down after I get the K3 up and running and will spend a few days in my TS Training Course. [big grin].  My TS includes 3-4 Forrest Thin-kerf blades and a Freud Flat-top blade.  Plus my Forrest Dado set. Plus the Shop Fox mobility kit that it rides on.

Now, I'm going to reveal something that I do not want repeated:  This Craftsman TS is the only TS I have ever owned. [eek]  I know, I know, but that's a fact.  So when I think of those 'other' woodworker's who have owned several TS's I'm probably saving $$ by purchasing the K3.  That's a stretch, I know.

So, considering the title to this thread - How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?, I guess the correct answer is - It depends on who your salesperson is.  Everybody knows that. Right? [wink]

Thanks to everyone for all of the good advice and shared personal experiences.  I have learned a lot from all that has been posted.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:45 PM by patriot »
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 514
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2017, 11:50 PM »
 Had a large jet cabinet saw that was awesome.  I split my finger in half (I was tired from 14 hours in the shop and made a stupid mistake).  After some surgery I bought a SS on the chance it would help even a little should I have another "event".  I respect my SS as much as my Jet and trust the safety mechanism none...just like anyone should.  Every time I switched blades and do the module dance I count to 10 over and over again until I can re-fire the machine and resume fab.

Anyone else can buy whatever they want because they're using it not me.  IMO, if you have selection rational that makes sense to you, go for it.  Before you make you're purchase though, for me please count to ten...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline HAXIT

  • Posts: 166
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2017, 11:57 PM »
@patriot
Just finishing my post, sorry I had to go. Overall my experience with Hammer machine and the service was very good. I like my N4400 a lot and I bought all the accessories as well. I ordered mine with ceramic blade guides and I am very glad I did. Both this machines should be wired to 20A 220v with 12AWG no exception.I asked this from manufacture in Austria not the dealer or sales people. They told me if I connect my A3 31 to 30A, the warranty would be voided so forget it. Never ask the sale people about this unless they give you a write up with signature. If you blow up your machine and your wiring was done by certified electrician, if that was the cause, you have much better chance to replace your machine then what the sales man told you to do. Just for their insurance and liability they would never admit it. IF you decide to buy the machines, let them ship it together so you can save big $$ on shipping. Try to talk only with one person not few and keep it simple. I do not have the slider but If you have any question about N4400 I would be glad to help if I can. Good luck with whatever bran you would buy.   

Offline patriot

  • Posts: 133
    • Wood Working By Design
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2017, 11:59 PM »
Had a large jet cabinet saw that was awesome.  I split my finger in half (I was tired from 14 hours in the shop and made a stupid mistake).  After some surgery I bought a SS on the chance it would help even a little should I have another "event".  I respect my SS as much as my Jet and trust the safety mechanism none...just like anyone should.  Every time I switched blades and do the module dance I count to 10 over and over again until I can re-fire the machine and resume fab.

Anyone else can buy whatever they want because they're using it not me.  IMO, if you have selection rational that makes sense to you, go for it.  Before you make you're purchase though, for me please count to ten...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear you loud and clear and I'm sorry to hear about the finger.  In my case, hearing all of my wife's 'comments' (after a shop accident) about not being careful enough was worse than the cut itself.

One thing that I forgot to mention in my last post was the fact that the K3 can utilize 12-inch TS blades.  That was the real selling point for me.

Take care.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 04:53 PM by patriot »
'If you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there' Lewis Carroll

Offline Max Fracas

  • Posts: 81
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2017, 12:01 AM »
@patriot

Thanks for the update on your situation.  Not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but after the discussion in this thread of the non-responsiveness of Felder (California), yesterday I received an email from Liz "just checking in" on me after my A3/41 purchase. 

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 514
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2017, 12:09 AM »
Had a large jet cabinet saw that was awesome.  I split my finger in half (I was tired from 14 hours in the shop and made a stupid mistake).  After some surgery I bought a SS on the chance it would help even a little should I have another "event".  I respect my SS as much as my Jet and trust the safety mechanism none...just like anyone should.  Every time I switched blades and do the module dance I count to 10 over and over again until I can re-fire the machine and resume fab.

Anyone else can buy whatever they want because they're using it not me.  IMO, if you have selection rational that makes sense to you, go for it.  Before you make you're purchase though, for me please count to ten...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear you loud and clear and I'm sorry to hear about the finger.  In my case, hearing all of my wife's 'comments' (after a shop accident) about not being careful enough is worse than the cut itself.

One thing that I forgot to mention in my last post was the fact that the K3 can utilize 12-inch TS blades.  That was the real selling point for me.

Take care.

Haha, my wife was nurturing then really ticked.  Started in on me about karma and how flipping people off all those years finally caught up to me.  It was really funny in spite of the situation.

Don't get me wrong, love to have one and I'd really enjoy the bigger blade.  Had the need just last week.  I'd like to hear it all works out for you so you can post up and tell us how awesome it is.

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline HAXIT

  • Posts: 166
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2017, 12:12 AM »
@HAXIT
@Mismarked
@JimH2
@RKA
@ Everyone else who has been following along

Well, the drama is over:  This afternoon I ordered the 79x48 K3.

This is how it all went down:  As some (or all) of you know I sent an email off to Mr. Jesse Mayernich (Senior Sales Representative) in New Castle, DE, about my experience with Felder's CA rep.  I was polite but to the point.  Within less than an hour I heard back from Mr. Maynerich.  His email response began with 'Please let me be your source contact moving forward.' 

Fast forwarding, he provided all of the information that I had been requesting within the next hour.  Then he scheduled a phone call at 1300H (my time) and took care of every need that I had.  And the funny part (IMO) is that he handed me back to the original sales rep, Mr. David Brooks, that I had contacted on 3 MAR.  Once again, Mr. Brooks wanted to know if their was anything else he could he could do for me. He sent the contract - that I was expecting this time - and I made a few changes and sent it back.  We are scheduled to conclude everything tomorrow morning. 

I asked for the K3 to come with a 12-inch blade installed and not the normal 10-inch blade.  They took care of that no problem.  I will have them toss in their dado set because I seem to do a lot of finger joint joinery (drawers and so on).  Delivery date will be in April sometime. 

While this put a smile on my face (and a serious dent in my bank account), the fact that my two cousin's (brothers) in Santa Fe were delighted to take my trusty Craftsman TS put an every bigger smile on my mug.  Cousin Ralph said he'd give me whatever I thought it was worth as they really needed a good TS.  I suggested $1 and he say 'No way!'  He argued. I won.  It is not often that I can do something good for my family.

They will come down after I get the K3 up and running and will spend a few days in my TS Training Course. [big grin].  My TS includes 3-4 Forrest Thin-kerf blades and a Freud Flat-top blade.  Plus my Forrest Dado set. Plus the Shop Fox mobility kit that it rides on.

Now, I'm going to reveal something that I do not want repeated:  This Craftsman TS is the only TS I have ever owned. [eek]  I know, I know, but that's a fact.  So when I think of those 'other' woodworker's who have owned several TS's I'm probably saving $$ by purchasing the K3.  That's a stretch, I know.

So, considering the title to this thread - How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?, I guess the correct answer is - It depends on who your salesperson is.  Everybody knows that. Right? [wink]

Thanks to everyone for all of the good advice and shared personal experiences.  I have learned a lot from all that has been posted.
Congratulation, I am very glad it ended up like this. You would love the machine.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 916
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2017, 08:15 AM »
That's great, congratulations!  Next thread will be unwrapping your "gift"! 
-Raj

Offline Iceclimber

  • Posts: 504
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2017, 08:16 AM »
Felder machines, decent.

Felder buisness model. Terrible....

After my experieces with them i would do all i could to avoid them.

They really make it a buisness modle to pass the buck off on the consumer all the while with a smile on their face as though they are really trying to help.

Pretty nasty stuff.
Kapex, MFT/3, MFT, CMS VL, 1400, TS75, Carvex420, CXS, DTS 400, Midi, CT36, RO90 and a bunch of other little crap and accessories it would be nuts to get into listing..

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1939
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2017, 08:39 AM »
Felder machines, decent.

Felder buisness model. Terrible....

After my experieces with them i would do all i could to avoid them.

They really make it a buisness modle to pass the buck off on the consumer all the while with a smile on their face as though they are really trying to help.

Pretty nasty stuff.

Does that trickle down to the Hammer stuff as well?  I am still undecided in the two lines, but thought to ask.

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2017, 10:25 AM »
@ben_r_  it is 12AWG

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Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2017, 10:34 AM »
@HAXIT just to be clear, the sales and tech people were always clear about the 20 amp circuit.  Some generic paper documentation said 30 amp in one place, and elsewhere said 20 amp.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2017, 10:37 AM »
@ben_r_  it is 12AWG
Interesting. Well that kinda makes me think they never intended it to draw over 20 amps, otherwise they might have used 10AWG wire.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 736
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2017, 11:41 AM »
It really isn't about what Felder says at all and the fact it's wired with 12Ga, it's about what the Electrical code says in a individual's country. Like I said previously. If you have even a slight understanding of the Electrical code you will get the concept, it's not whether the machine will operate on a lower amp circuit it's about the safety aspect, especially in your home. As always do as you please.
There was an interesting discussion on the first FOG about a member who also checked Felders electrical requirements before buying a widebelt sander and the power it was going to take to operate. He had the electrician wire what Felder said it needed and when the machine arrived and was hooked up, the amp draw of the machine far exceeded what they (the Felder Rocket Scientists) told the customer. Needless to say alot of problems and downtime for the guys business. He was unable to upgrade the circuit with the existing power on hand. Long story short, those same people are telling you to go against code. The happy ending is that because of the Felder BS they are taking back the machine and he's getting a unit that will work.

John

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 58
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2017, 01:39 PM »
I have a few Felder machines on order and will be wiring the shop in the next few weeks. Everything will be done with 10ga at a minimum. It's far easier to swap a breaker than it is to pull a new wire. I'd consider this option if you still can.

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2017, 02:11 PM »
I don't purport to know a lot about electrical stuff, especially 240v, but the issue as explained to me was that it would take an extra fraction of a second to trip the 30A breaker vs the 20A if the machine got overloaded and it could harm the motor slightly each time it happened.  Since the thing runs fine on 20a, no reason to go higher.
 An electrical engineer on another site understood the issue but said it was a theoretical possibility and I'd probably get hit by a meteor before I managed to overload the machine enough to trip the 20 but not immediately trip the 30.
      That sounded right but I did the sub-panel anyway so as not to void the warranty if something bad happens.

Offline RobBob

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2017, 02:37 PM »
I just called Hammer's Delaware office five minutes ago and asked them again about the correct amp circuit for the A3 31.  They again stated for a second time that 30 amps is preferred.  All Hammer A3 31 specific documentation that I have seen says to use a 30 amp circuit.

The technical support guy said that it might run ok on 20 amps but if your voltage drops at all the machine will draw higher amps and since start up uses close to 20 amps, it is better to go with a 30 amp circuit.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 02:42 PM by RobBob »

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2017, 02:45 PM »
I just called Hammer's Delaware office five minutes ago and asked them again about the correct amp circuit for the A3 31.  They again stated for a second time that 30 amps is preferred.  All Hammer A3 31 specific documentation that I have seen says to use a 30 amp circuit.

The technical support guy said that it might run ok on 20 amps but if your voltage drops at all the machine will draw higher amps and since start up uses close to 20 amps, it is better to go with a 30 amp circuit.
What number or who did you call? I have called Hammer/Felder people too and gotten the "20A is what we recommend and have never heard of an issue". This is getting humorous. As I mentioned earlier Ive had my N4400 on a 20A circuit for over a year now and never had any kind of issue.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline RobBob

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Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2017, 03:06 PM »
866-792-5288 is the number I called.  Don't remember his name but I asked for technical support.  I got voice mail and left a message.  They called back within ten minutes.

Maybe California is giving a different answer than Delaware or maybe the N4400 has different requirements than the A3 31?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:44 PM by RobBob »

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2017, 03:34 PM »
The plastic bag that comes with the machine and contains the hardware has a flyer that states:   Maximum upstream protection not to exceed 20A at 3KW (S6-40%) 1 x 230V / 60Hz.  That matched what the tech told me before delivery.  There is another document that says to ensure the circuit does not have voltage fluctuations exceeding a specified percentage. I think it was plus or minus 10 percent.  I think the EE's comment was that 30 amp should work fine, and I am sure that's right, but since the flyer specific to the machine as delivered and the Delaware tech  both said to use a 20 amp circuit, I went with that. no problems running 12 inch hard maple workbench top through the planer. 

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1164
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2017, 04:39 PM »
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The plastic bag that comes with the machine and contains the hardware has a flyer that states:   Maximum upstream protection not to exceed 20A at 3KW (S6-40%) 1 x 230V / 60Hz.  That matched what the tech told me before delivery.  There is another document that says to ensure the circuit does not have voltage fluctuations exceeding a specified percentage. I think it was plus or minus 10 percent.  I think the EE's comment was that 30 amp should work fine, and I am sure that's right, but since the flyer specific to the machine as delivered and the Delaware tech  both said to use a 20 amp circuit, I went with that. no problems running 12 inch hard maple workbench top through the planer.

No, the Delaware tech told me today and 6 months ago (same answer 6 months apart) that a 30 amp circuit is preferred even though it may work on a 20 amp circuit.

Which machine and motor?  The manual says 20 amps for a three phase motor.   The motor on my A3 31 is single phase.  I did not have 240 volt service in my shop until recently.  I could easily have put in a 20 or 30 amp circuit. 

« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:37 PM by RobBob »

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2017, 05:26 PM »
A3-31, 4hp.  I have residential single phase 240, 30A circuit, which is a dryer outlet with 4 10AWG  wires that they put in the garage in case I buy an electric car at some point. my recollection is you just wire the same motor differently if you have something other than single phase. Did the 20A subpanel with 12AWG for the over current protection to the machine. It seemed complicated to me but made sense to the electrician. my guess is you are absolutely fine if your machine isn't tripping the breaker but you could do the subpanel with magnets like my electrician did if you have concerns.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1164
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2017, 07:40 PM »
A3-31, 4hp.  I have residential single phase 240, 30A circuit, which is a dryer outlet with 4 10AWG  wires that they put in the garage in case I buy an electric car at some point. my recollection is you just wire the same motor differently if you have something other than single phase. Did the 20A subpanel with 12AWG for the over current protection to the machine. It seemed complicated to me but made sense to the electrician. my guess is you are absolutely fine if your machine isn't tripping the breaker but you could do the subpanel with magnets like my electrician did if you have concerns.

I am happy with my 30 amp circuit.  The people using it on a 20 amp circuit are the ones that should be concerned.

Could you post a picture of the flier that came with your machine?  What year was your machine built?  The year of manufacture is on the plate on the back of the machine.  See my picture above.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 07:46 PM by RobBob »

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2017, 08:34 PM »
A3-31, 4hp.  I have residential single phase 240, 30A circuit, which is a dryer outlet with 4 10AWG  wires that they put in the garage in case I buy an electric car at some point. my recollection is you just wire the same motor differently if you have something other than single phase. Did the 20A subpanel with 12AWG for the over current protection to the machine. It seemed complicated to me but made sense to the electrician. my guess is you are absolutely fine if your machine isn't tripping the breaker but you could do the subpanel with magnets like my electrician did if you have concerns.

I am happy with my 30 amp circuit.  The people using it on a 20 amp circuit are the ones that should be concerned.

Could you post a picture of the flier that came with your machine?  What year was your machine built?  The year of manufacture is on the plate on the back of the machine.  See my picture above.
As long as the motor never draws over 20A (which if it did it would just pop the breaker) there is no cause for concern. If it is popping the breaker and its doing it regularly, then the circuit definitely needs to be bumped up to a 30 amp breaker with at least 10AWG wire. But so far I havent read to read or hear from anyone having issues with a Hammer 4HP motor tool on a 20amp breaker. Just a lot of people talking.


And FWIW there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting the saw on a 30amp circuit if it makes one feel better. heck, you could put it on a 100amp circuit and as long as you gauge the wire correctly nothing will change. A system will pull only as much current as it needs unless there is a short or electrical failure of some other sort. Allowing the availability of more amperage does nothing but allow more current to be drawn.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 08:37 PM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 127
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2017, 08:40 PM »
Maybe we should start a new thread, as I hate to hijack. But manufactured 2016, bought and delivered feb 2017. Let's see if I can post photo from iPhone.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2017, 08:51 PM »
Circuit breakers are there to protect the wiring so that if there is a fault your building doesn't go up in smoke.

If the saw is that critical as to the size of the CB then it should be built into the machine by the manufacturer and not left up to the discretion of the installer.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1164
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2017, 08:58 PM »
Maybe we should start a new thread, as I hate to hijack. But manufactured 2016, bought and delivered feb 2017. Let's see if I can post photo from iPhone.

Yeah, we should have started a new thread, although we're both happy with what we have and I doubt anyone else cares...

Yours is same year as the machine I received.  Don't remember seeing that document attached and I see that none of the boxes are checked on yours.  Wonder if that means anything?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:02 PM by RobBob »

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 791
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2017, 09:14 PM »
New thread created for the electrical talk: LINK


And a pic of my Hammer N4400 plate stating 15A draw at 220V.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 514
How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2017, 09:56 PM »
I'd run a 50 amp circuit and then a breaker on the wall at the machine with an appropriate sized cord to the machine.  Slightly more expensive but future-proof
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 10:23 PM by Scorpion »

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 183
Re: How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2017, 12:29 AM »
Felder machines, decent.

Felder buisness model. Terrible....

After my experieces with them i would do all i could to avoid them.

They really make it a buisness modle to pass the buck off on the consumer all the while with a smile on their face as though they are really trying to help.

Pretty nasty stuff.

Does that trickle down to the Hammer stuff as well?  I am still undecided in the two lines, but thought to ask.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes.  Hammer is a Felder line of machinery.  Just like Lexus is part of Toyota.  Or Acura is part of Honda.  Or MiniMax is a part of SCMI.  Or Powermatic is a part of Jet.  Or with beer, many, many world famous brands are all owned by the same company.  Miller and Coors are the same company now.  But Bud and Miller were the same company for a short while.  And Heineken is part of Bud now.  And Fosters and Corona are owned by one of them too.  In the US and Europe, a couple companies make all the name brand beers.  They are sold and serviced by the exact same people.  Hammer was recently purchased by Felder.  10+ years ago.  In Europe maybe Hammer was a separate brand from Felder where they both operated as competitors for a few years.  In the USA Hammer was never sold until after Felder bought the brand and introduced it to the USA.