Author Topic: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?  (Read 16680 times)

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Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2016, 03:44 PM »
Something I haven't seen mentioned here, space considerations. I used to run a shop with a 3.2 metre (11ft) Altendorf F-45 at one end. We were breaking-down 3070 x 2107 "jumbo" sheets quite a bit with that saw to feed into our CNC PTP and it required something like 26 feet length x 20 feet width (2 x length of longest board by 1 x length of longest crosscut + 7ft for RH extension tables) to load and use because the operator also needs a bit of room. Even the 2.5 metre (8ft) machine that replaced needed a foot print of about (from memory) 20 feet x 15 feet. You can't impinge on this footprint without compromising the safe and effective use of the saw. Having owned half size sliders (i.e. those with 4ft tables) before that I'd say that they compromise on accuracy because you are still going to have to full length rip sheets against the rip fence (which sort of defeats the object of a slider unless you are ony doing small scale stuff). I'd also point out that whilst full-size sliders are great for breaking down full size sheets the walk around that carraige overhang at the front of the saw when doing repetitive rips of timber off the rip fence quickly becomes a chore to be avoided
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 05:56 PM by Job and Knock »
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

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Offline HAXIT

  • Posts: 168
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2016, 11:23 PM »
Maybe Fimal concept 350 could be the answer? [big grin]


Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 434
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2016, 09:08 AM »
Indeed. Let the machine  do the walking.
Or one of these from mafell...


« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 09:36 AM by Lbob131 »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2016, 11:02 AM »
Indeed. Let the machine  do the walking.
Or one of these from mafell...



That's pretty cool  [thumbs up], though I'm sure the price would scare me a bit
+1

Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 434
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2016, 12:22 PM »
My 2014 mafell catalogue  shows  it at £2179 inc VAT.
And I think their still  close to that today.

Offline Kodi Crescent

  • Posts: 638
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2016, 09:00 AM »
Quote

Seems many don't want to understand that people simply get pleasure from using good tools [sad] I couldn't imagine someone on a car forum telling you that you only need a bicycle when you ask to discuss buying either a BMW or a Merc [blink]


I understand the pleasure from using nice tools.  I believe many on here share that understanding.  Dovetail is asking a practical, logical question.  Having a garage full of nice tools that aren't used isn't a good use of money.  I should know.  Perhaps he is helping you manage resources?

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2016, 10:37 PM »
Quote
I understand the pleasure from using nice tools.  I believe many on here share that understanding.  Dovetail is asking a practical, logical question.  Having a garage full of nice tools that aren't used isn't a good use of money.  I should know.  Perhaps he is helping you manage resources?

@Kodi Crescent with all respect, this is not a financial advice forum. This "need v's want" theme comes up almost every time a seemingly non professional expresses a desire, rather than simply questioning usage specifics or offering advice relative to the questions asked.

This forum spans a wide range of tool user types, from tradesman that struggle to even afford their first Festool to people that are reasonably wealthy and enjoy the thought of performing the odd piece of craft with the finest tools.

Veiling questions with palpable negativity and derision isn't very friendly and it's extremely obvious that the OP finds pleasure in procuring and ultimately using quality, safe equipment. Whether time permits frequent or infrequent use of the tools is not our business.

If you want to question "what is a good use of money?" a separate topic may be smart - this thread is SS TS v's slider, not "I want a table saw ... should I get one?"

So, specifically ... as you asked the question of something I posted, Dovetail is not helping me manage resources and I have not requested his help and do not want it.

I share this in this thread as you asked the question of part of my post ... but if you want to discuss this further I suggest we take it offline via PM.

Online ben_r_

  • Posts: 829
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2016, 02:15 PM »
I have the Hammer N4400 as well and an A3-31 coming sometime next year and I still would and did go with the SawStop PCS 3HP 36" with the ICS mobile base and overarm dust collection.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2016, 03:22 PM »
I have the Hammer N4400 as well and an A3-31 coming sometime next year and I still would and did go with the SawStop PCS 3HP 36" with the ICS mobile base and overarm dust collection.

@ben_r_ curious ...

How do you use your saw and what sort of cuts are your most commonly making?

I see a lot of US table saw usage videos with hands in close to the blade .. hence fingers can fly !! I'm gravitating towards a slider because I plan every cut to ensure none of my body parts go near the sharp spinning bits and the slider helps me meet that objective. I'm probably much slowing in usage because of my approach .. but that's just me.

Online ben_r_

  • Posts: 829
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2016, 04:54 PM »
I have the Hammer N4400 as well and an A3-31 coming sometime next year and I still would and did go with the SawStop PCS 3HP 36" with the ICS mobile base and overarm dust collection.

@ben_r_ curious ...

How do you use your saw and what sort of cuts are your most commonly making?

I see a lot of US table saw usage videos with hands in close to the blade .. hence fingers can fly !! I'm gravitating towards a slider because I plan every cut to ensure none of my body parts go near the sharp spinning bits and the slider helps me meet that objective. I'm probably much slowing in usage because of my approach .. but that's just me.
Hey, as a hobbyist, we have the luxury of being able to take our time! Nothing against sliders, I just liked the the build quality, lower price and safety feature of the SawStop. Most of my cuts are short crosscuts and <30" wide rips. I use a track saw for breaking down panels. Could I have gotten by just fine with a slider? Of course, but they are larger, and here they cost a lot more.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2016, 04:53 AM »
I see a lot of US table saw usage videos with hands in close to the blade .. hence fingers can fly !! I'm gravitating towards a slider because I plan every cut to ensure none of my body parts go near the sharp spinning bits and the slider helps me meet that objective.
How about learning to use push sticks properly and making most of your cuts with the riving knife and crown guard on? With 16in push sticks your hands should never be nearer the blade than about 12in. I keep reading (mainly from amateur woodworkers) about the "need" to see the cut line. Poppycock! There are very few cases where you need to see the cut line because the rip fence should be doing all the work for you. One of the few times I actually do need to see the cut line is when I'm doing a long scribe on something like skitings (baseboard), but even though I'm site based that's a very rare cut to make
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2016, 05:56 AM »
@Job and Knock sadly you really don't need to be that smart to learn how to use a push stick and watching a line after you've setup a saw properly for a cut is next to worthless, but you will still get people that believe they can do things more safely than "the other guy" .. table saw short cuts save time but significantly increase the likelihood of injury. It's a bit like not bothering with the seat belt because you're not going very far [sad]


Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 153
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2016, 08:22 AM »
I keep reading (mainly from amateur woodworkers) about the "need" to see the cut line. Poppycock! There are very few cases where you need to see the cut line because the rip fence should be doing all the work for you. One of the few times I actually do need to see the cut line is when I'm doing a long scribe on something like skitings (baseboard), but even though I'm site based that's a very rare cut to make

I agree there's generally no need to see the cut line for quality, but there sure is for safety.  If working on a tool with an exposed blade my eyes are focused on the blade during any cutting operation.  Important to make sure your body parts stay clear of the cut and, ripping with a table saw important to watch for signs of binding that could produce kickback.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 495
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2016, 10:55 AM »
I have the Hammer N4400 as well and an A3-31 coming sometime next year and I still would and did go with the SawStop PCS 3HP 36" with the ICS mobile base and overarm dust collection.

@ben_r_ curious ...

How do you use your saw and what sort of cuts are your most commonly making?

I see a lot of US table saw usage videos with hands in close to the blade .. hence fingers can fly !! I'm gravitating towards a slider because I plan every cut to ensure none of my body parts go near the sharp spinning bits and the slider helps me meet that objective. I'm probably much slowing in usage because of my approach .. but that's just me.

A slider or SawStop are your only choices. You can't go wrong either way.

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2016, 02:08 PM »
Important to make sure your body parts stay clear of the cut and, ripping with a table saw important to watch for signs of binding that could produce kickback.
But there's the rub, literally. If you use a "short" European style rip fence (which ends at the saw gullet) together with a riving knife there really is a low risk of kickback because the timber cannot end up binding between the blade and the rear of the (through) fence. You can still get pinching on the riving knife in a very few cases, but that is so rare that some woodworkers will never experience it. We rarely see the Biesmeyer-type through rip fence over here these days because we all know how much more dangerous they are and no European manufacturer supplies them on static equipment. But another thing to consider is this: when a kickback occurs the material can be shot backwards at you at a speed of 90 to 120mph. With the best will in the world neither you nor I have reactions quick enough to do anything when that occurs, believe me

As to the SawStop argument I'm unconvinced. 95% of what the SawStop is supposed to prevent can be avoided by adopting safer usage. But then I'm somewhat risk averse
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 02:11 PM by Job and Knock »
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Online ben_r_

  • Posts: 829
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2016, 02:37 PM »

As to the SawStop argument I'm unconvinced. 95% of what the SawStop is supposed to prevent can be avoided by adopting safer usage. But then I'm somewhat risk averse
It is also just the overall fit and finish of the saw. For me the safety feature was a nice to have, but not the main attraction to the saw. The saw is built nicer than any of the others I considered (Powermatic, Jet, Laguna, Delta, etc). That alone made me want to spend the extra amount on it.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 07:33 PM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 274
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2016, 03:59 PM »
No one really needs the protection of the SawStop's finger-saving feature, except those who can be cut by a spinning blade in an accident...and believe it or not, every day, the ten workers who experience tablesaw amputations are among those people.

Chuck

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2016, 05:45 PM »
...and believe it or not, every day, the ten workers who experience tablesaw amputations are among those people.
But how many of those people  were using proper push sticks? If you are using a table saw properly and safely your fingers never go that close to the saw blade. It's as simple as that.
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 274
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2016, 05:57 PM »
I wish it were that simple!

Chuck

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 735
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2016, 07:59 PM »
Please keep the discussion going if you would like. I will be ordering a sawstop and in the future I plan to have a slider as well.

Thanks,

Daniel
Daniel

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2016, 10:36 PM »
Please keep the discussion going if you would like. I will be ordering a sawstop and in the future I plan to have a slider as well.

Thanks,

Daniel

@Runhard this is no surprise to me [wink] [big grin]

Since I've started hunting for acreages I've opened my mind to thoughts of metal fabrication, proper spray areas and even thought about a closed off corner where a lathe could hide [eek] [scared]

Though I'm a "slider guy", I can foresee where a cabinet style saw with an accurately slotted top could work well with custom jigs (like some of the INCRA stuff you can build upon).


Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 735
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2016, 11:19 PM »
Hey Kev,
Great minds think alike.  [thumbs up]  I also plan to have a metal fabricating area when I build a new house and shop. I actually was a pipe fitter for 3 years before I went to college, so I would like to be setup to weld again. I was thinking about a 30'x40' shop, but that may be too small for everything that I want. [eek]
Daniel

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2016, 12:31 AM »
Hey Kev,
Great minds think alike.  [thumbs up]  I also plan to have a metal fabricating area when I build a new house and shop. I actually was a pipe fitter for 3 years before I went to college, so I would like to be setup to weld again. I was thinking about a 30'x40' shop, but that may be too small for everything that I want. [eek]

@Runhard talk about a heck of a co-incidence ... the property we just made an offer on had a new 9mx12m and I was thinking "at least half again" !


Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2016, 05:38 AM »
I wish it were that simple!
Please explain. I want to know exactly why anyone ever needs to put their fingers so close to a circular blade that they can get drawn in. All I see is SawStop as being is a "sticking plaster" solution for people who are too lazy to learn how to use a table saw in a safe manner. Or maybe that's a pro woodworker thing? It's a bit like air bags vs. seat belts in cars IMHO
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 05:43 AM by Job and Knock »
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 153
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2016, 09:17 AM »
job,

Your analogy is an apt one, fasten a seatbelt and you will get a limited level of protection.  Add airbags (10 is about the current ballpark here) and you get protection that supplements the seatbelt (side collisions, frontal corner impacts, etc.) as well as protection that is independent of the seatbelt.  Features like Sawstop's should not (IMHO) be viewed as the primary means of defense...after all when you deploy the safety feature the saw no longer works and you are buying a blade and a cartridge.  So Sawstop in now way obviates the need for good everyday safety practices, attention and care when operating a tablesaw. but when things really go wrong (a slip, medical issue, etc.) the safety feature will, for a few hundred bucks turn a potential amputation or even death into a modest cut.  That's a pretty good deal!

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2016, 09:37 AM »
job,

Your analogy is an apt one, fasten a seatbelt and you will get a limited level of protection.  Add airbags (10 is about the current ballpark here) and you get protection that supplements the seatbelt (side collisions, frontal corner impacts, etc.) as well as protection that is independent of the seatbelt.  Features like Sawstop's should not (IMHO) be viewed as the primary means of defense...after all when you deploy the safety feature the saw no longer works and you are buying a blade and a cartridge.  So Sawstop in now way obviates the need for good everyday safety practices, attention and care when operating a tablesaw. but when things really go wrong (a slip, medical issue, etc.) the safety feature will, for a few hundred bucks turn a potential amputation or even death into a modest cut.  That's a pretty good deal!

That value assumes that we get a deal on fingers for $1000.

Another way of looking at it, is that no matter how many airbags, belts and crumple zones, ABS features that one has ... it is generally better not to be texting when one is driving.

As with a car, the most important safety feature is the driver.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 183
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2016, 03:21 PM »
My opinion.  Ha.  I think the SawStop is good and I would like it to be on every saw ever made.  Maybe the patents will expire soon and other companies will adopt it wholesale.  But I think the European slider is a much better, productive design and provides about 99% or more of the safety features of the SawStop.  If the SawStop was on a European slider then you would have the best of all possible worlds.  But you have 90% good with the SawStop on the ineffective USA cabinet saw or 99% good with the European slider and no SawStop.  Which is better?

In regard to others talking about good procedures making the SawStop unneeded.  Accidents happen.  Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault.  You are doing a rip cut and you trip by accident.  People trip for no reason at all every day.  Your hand goes into the sawblade.  A kickback sends a piece of wood into your head and you lean forward to stop from falling.  Your hand goes into the blade.  Etc.  Many situations where it may not be your fault your hand goes into the blade.  Probably more where it is the operator's fault.  But in either case it would be nice to not have your hand cut off.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2016, 11:50 PM »
Yup, I think it is good to have that feature... But at what cost?
One can only get a SAWstop with a SAWstop.

If it was available on any saw then I would probably get it. But if there was another saw that I liked more than a SAWstop I am then left with a choice between a SAWstop and a different saw without the explosive brake.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 183
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #88 on: December 24, 2016, 01:00 AM »
Yup, I think it is good to have that feature... But at what cost?
One can only get a SAWstop with a SAWstop.

That's why I hope the patent by SawStop and Bosch's method expire soon.  And every other saw maker in the world adopts the technology instantly on every type of saw made.  Just a few more years and it should be everywhere from everyone.  Kind of like the biscuit joiner.  Lamello started it.  Now many companies make one.  And they are cheap now.  Soon hopefully the Festool Domino will meet the same fate.  Everyone will be making a Domino type machine in a few more years.  All patents expire sometime.

Offline ZeroCool

  • Posts: 12
Re: It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2016, 12:09 PM »
Go with the Hammer. The Sawstop is overrated and is only needed in a fast production setting or at a construction site where there is a lot of distractions.  IMHO.